Muff's Modules & More

sensensempompom · Posted: Sat Feb 20, 2010 2:29 am Post subject: r frac and euro friends

could i use my euro set up with a frac system?
is it safe to split my purchases of the necessary bread and butter modules between both systems and use them together or are there limits to there pairing due to voltage?
huh?

sensensempompom · Posted: Sat Feb 20, 2010 2:52 am Post subject:

would i need a blacet 2225 I/O module ?
if i get a metalbox matrix mixer can i use my euro and frac with it ?

thnx ahead of time
any help appreciatd

panda30y · Posted: Sat Feb 20, 2010 3:11 am Post subject:

I believe it's just that some frac vca's require 10V to fully open, and euro usually only has a puny little 5V to open their girly vca's.

dude · Posted: Sat Feb 20, 2010 3:13 am Post subject:

frac uses +/- 15v
euro uses +/- 12v

if you are aware of the power requirements of each system (and have the means to house/power modules) , that is the biggest difference. the modules themselves work pretty well together. the frac form factor is different (and well documented) from euro. they don't happily occupy the same rails/case. there are some weird things with voltage between modules but it'll all be fine. read the manuals and ask specific questions (or rather use the search function to avoid reinventing the wheel). any designer making the modules will likely be more than happy to clear up any confusion. what modules are you looking at/do you have? you wouldn't need and I/O necessarily at all to patch between systems. hell, they each even use 1/8" jacks.

picard says 'make it so!'

feel free to pm if you want. i or many other of the multi format systems users would gladly talk to you i am sure

hope that answers some of your questions...

sensensempompom

i intend on having seperate housing/power modules for each system
it was more about there being weird things with voltage between modules

i have a pretty complete 6u eurocase filled with wiard/malekko, make noise and stg but i'm missing a mixer, mults and attenuators and seeing as how i just picked up two bugbrand modules and blacet research started up there company on my birth year i thought why not get some frac

so um m i did read threw a ton of threads but nothing was specific enough maybe i should of used advanced search ? anyways there was lots of talk about people using both systems and hints at what modules might let you take advantage of one or the other system but i think all the basic abc talk was done in secret

i picked up a bugbrand BugCrusher and DualVCA and wanted to add MetalboX Matrix Mixer, VC Divider and Gated Comparator

everybody wants a blacet miniwave, i wouldn't mind a vco and i wasn't sure if i'd rather a binary zone or hex zone i like the hex zone font better than the binary depending on that choice i'd have room for either a window comparator or an EG1 maybe both if i kick out the vco and stick with the binary zone

picard

(feel free to pm if you want. i or many other of the multi format systems users would gladly talk to you i am sure) smile

thnx

don't forget to feed the lurkers

sensensempompom

yah, i realize now ..
i should of mentioned i was aware of the power requirements and size issues it wasn't a matter of cramming it all into one magic box
although some people are managing just that
but not me .. for now..
i just want to know to what extent these seperate systems can work together and what the limitations might be

DGTom · Posted: Sat Feb 20, 2010 4:37 am Post subject:

they'll work together just fine, but, if you take a look at the Dual VCA page on the BugBrand site, you'll see its intended to work with a 0-10V CV, not many (if any) Euro modules (EGs) will output that much voltage as Euro VCAs expect a 0-5V CV.

Other than that, go for it. Bacet has a bunch of unique modules - I wouldn't pick between the Hex & the Binary Zone based on font tho, they are very differant beasts. The BZ can be CV or Gate sequencer, an LFO, a frequency divider, depending on how you use it.

e-grad · Posted: Sat Feb 20, 2010 4:52 am Post subject:

Basically you can run CVs, trigger/gate signals and audio from Frac to Euro and the other way round w/outh any problems.

Yet their's no rule w/out exception. However you can handle any exception you just need to be aware of them.

- Some early version of logic modules by Doepfer (e.g. switches) could be dstroyed by the output level of Blacet's Freq Div. I don't think it is an issue with any module currently in production but you might want search the Doepfer-Yahoo-Group on this.

- As mentioned above Blacet VCAs want 10V to fully open but this can changend. Either build any VCA for 5v or ask John to do it. OTOH Blacet's EG (like Anaolgue Systems ADSR) output up to +/-10V while the typically Euro VCA only asks for 5V. You'll need an attentuator for best results.

- Trigger/gate threshold will vary you might face rare situations were you won't be able to trigger Frac stuff with a Euro trigger just bcs. the output level is to low. Back then I had quite some Doepfer modules next to my Frac stuff. One specific Doepfer module's trigger output needed a little amplification to trigger a Blacet module. I could solve this by running the signal throgh a Doepfer Trigger Delay.

- The good news is: You won't destroy anything since any make uses parts which can handle at least +/-15V (some parts will happily accept 63V or even more). The only exception are the above mentioned logic modules bcs. some ot their inputs are more sensitive.

Kent · Posted: Sat Feb 20, 2010 4:59 am Post subject: Answer to your question

I hope that these help in answering your question. One thing is that the discontinued Blacet Quad Mix VCA is normally set to fully open its VCAs with +10V. Most Euro Gates and EGs won't do this. However, in the back of the Quad Mix manual, the modification is given to make the change to standard (ish) Euro +5V.

sensensempompom · Posted: Sat Feb 20, 2010 5:32 am Post subject:

hhm cool ! thnx DGTom and
BIG thnx dude!
and e-grad and Kent
and i guess you were right panda30y
but i already had a bunch of girly euro vca's in my box anyway
so i'll just have to find something in frac that can take advantage of my
new bugbrand dual vca

i'm pretty new to modulars so if anyone can think of something
any recommendations taking into consideration the above mentioned choices if you have the time i'd very much appreciate it

my euro rack is pretty complete so this is more about audio/control and more control and maybe take advantage of some frac audio since i have the vca's ?

I'll have two racks of space to get the best of what frac has to offer ..

also does anybody know anything about the gated comparator ? it seems interesting ..
along with the binary zone this should offer me enough sequencing possibilities maybe a midiverter smile

parasitk · Posted: Sat Feb 20, 2010 8:12 am Post subject:

Frac and Euro modules work together just fine, as everyone has said. Frac and Euro owners however are bitter mortal enemies! Fencing

Cybananna · Posted: Sat Feb 20, 2010 8:53 am Post subject:

parasitk · Posted: Sat Feb 20, 2010 9:03 am Post subject:

Nice system! screaming goo yo

Cybananna · Posted: Sat Feb 20, 2010 9:10 am Post subject:

thanks.

parasitk · Posted: Sat Feb 20, 2010 9:14 am Post subject:

How do you deal with all the self hatred? seriously, i just don't get it

Cybananna · Posted: Sat Feb 20, 2010 9:54 am Post subject:

I beat myself nightly.

panda30y · Posted: Sat Feb 20, 2010 12:31 pm Post subject:

Blacet VCO is fantastic, but there are so many more options in euro for VCO's that I'm unsure if it's worthwhile for you to get one depending on how much space you'll be dedicating to frac.

Don't forget about Metalbox, because he makes some fantastic modules such as the gated comparator, which I haven't used (built) yet, but it seems to have huge potential, and I know that mono-poly has raved w00t

about it in the past.

I actually like euro, just doesn't fit into my plans. I would take advantage of the more unique options in frac, such as the binary zone, mini-wave, and the many cgs builds of metalbox. Also, encore has a frequency shifter and metalbox has great drum modules and sequencing options.

dude · Posted: Sat Feb 20, 2010 2:48 pm Post subject:

yes+ on metalbox. he is fantastic. i am about to place another order with him!

dude · Posted: Sat Feb 20, 2010 3:13 pm Post subject:

can i unrelatedly say that the old 5u encore freq shift is a ton more attractive than the frac one.

sensensempompom · Posted: Sun Feb 21, 2010 12:28 am Post subject: xcite bike

thnx parasitk
yah nice system Cybananna it's large + good info on the maths
bugbrand ++

panda30y
i've got two anti-oscillators and a wogglebug + other stuff that can make noise
i'm a gonna start with one frac rac try to stop at two
i really wanted MetalboX it all looks nice in blue
i'm glad to here everyone is so into MetalboX i wanted to get
a Matrix Mixer, VC Divider and Gated Comparator what else is good

? is using hardware drums and synths with a frac or euro a simple thing

dude · Posted: Sun Feb 21, 2010 12:34 am Post subject:

oh go with blue go with blue go with blue. i am getting an 8008 in 5u in blue and i have a 5x5 cgs matrix mixer in blue. they are among the prettiest modules i have seen. his work is fucking awesome!

sensensempompom · Posted: Sun Feb 21, 2010 1:07 am Post subject:

all blue- i wonder if he could cut me some panels for the blacet modules i don't need the info on em i could keep the blacet faceplates make a small metal booklet

dude · Posted: Sun Feb 21, 2010 4:25 am Post subject:

if you haven't already, i would contact him and tell him your ideal, he may even have some ideas of his own. you can see a bunch of his custom work on his site. really nice stuff.

sensensempompom · Posted: Mon Feb 22, 2010 3:38 am Post subject:

I've sent the email
smile

thnx dude
your enthusiasticness is a nice help

i hope MetalboX is into helping guide a newb if he plays his cards right
i might end up with a giant blue MetalboX

Kent · Posted: Mon Feb 22, 2010 4:04 am Post subject:

darenager · Posted: Mon Feb 22, 2010 11:23 am Post subject:

I happily "swing both ways" (only in the modular sense) bi and proud LOL

I started off with Frac but Euro was too much of a temptation to dismiss, is generally cheaper and offers a lot of variety. Frac still has some unique stuff though and I'd be hard pushed to choose one format over the other.

Took me much longer to build a Frac system, was built up over about 2-3years for 12u, did 18u of Euro in like 4 months, and ready for another 9u anytime soon. I still am not 100% happy with my Frac system, would love to get some more Blacet but the import duty is ridiculous so its unlikely that I will.

I've never really had any problems linking between the systems, and not blown anything up yet so......

EDIT I have 2 attenuators in my Frac which I use for certain applications when going between formats. Definately recommended.

EDIT hehe, just noticed Kent rocking the "cable tie" rack system, I walked that path for a while wink

EDIT Binary Zone is fab, also the Blacet VCO is very nice, Filthy Filter is great too. I have some a Bugbrand VCA, not tried pinging it with a Euro envelope yet though but should be fine, I'll report back later...

darenager · Posted: Mon Feb 22, 2010 11:56 am Post subject:

Update - Just tried the Bugbrand VCA with the Doepfer A143-2 works fine, comparing it to driving with the Bugbrand ENV1 you get a bit less overall volume with the Doepfer, as you'd expect, but it is certainly useable.

Going the other way, using a Frac envelope to drive a Euro VCA you would want to attenuate to get a more predictable range most likely.

Cat-A-Tonic · Posted: Mon Feb 22, 2010 12:19 pm Post subject:

If you are going to get one Frac rack, you might as well get two.
That way you'll make the most of your PSU.

I have 6 racks of Frac, and recently added 2 racks of Euro.
Euro does add some nice options to the system.
My Euro currently has no envelopes or VCAs.
It is dependent on the Frac for these duties.

They play nicely together, but you have to be aware about attenuation or amplification sometimes being necessary.
Some of Blacet's offerings make this much easier.

Blacet's EG1, Micro LFO, and new DAD envelope all have attenuators on their outputs for easy scaling of your voltages to whichever ranges you need.
Blacet's buffered splitter, mixer, and multiples have output attenuation too.

Blacet has several modules that offer healthy amounts of gain.
This can help with the odd boosting/amplification requirements of unusual interfacing.
Examples being: the obvious I/O, Klangwerk, and channel D of the discontinued Quad VCA.

sensensempompom · Posted: Mon Feb 22, 2010 9:46 pm Post subject:

thnx for trying out the vca d.ager. like your youtube link
I'll be sure to get attenuators for my frac. Mike from MetalboX was helpfull
it won't all b blue but i'm glad i wrote him. very nice

MetalboX Mike Quote: Yes, this is only really ever a headache when using envelopes and VCA's with different scales. There's no risk of damage or anything like that. Just the inconvenience of not having the full parameter range. Most of the time you won't want the parameter to go over it's full range anyway. ie: you don't constantly sweep a filter frequency or resonance control it's full range rather they are constrained. 10 octave sweeps can sometimes be cool.

Also, if you mix two 5V signals together in a euro system you'll get a 10 volt swing in most cases. Frac modules just have a little more headroom.

thnx also cat-a-tonic good info on the Blacet modules
i do plan on getting a second case, eventually