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WIGGLING 'LITE' IN GUEST MODE

Sound of Shadows Expansion Module
MUFF WIGGLER Forum Index -> Flight of Harmony  
Author Sound of Shadows Expansion Module
flight
Okiedokie! Here's the place to discuss the SoS expander module.
Planned features:
New
  • Delay length LED
  • Buffered clock output
Duplicates of existing, but including an attenuator on each
  • CV in
    • Rate
    • Feedback
    • VCA
  • Audio in
    • Input
This will all fit in 8hp, maybe even 6hp.
I'm looking for any input you may have - opinions on the above and suggestions of features not in the list.
dude
perfect. make it so!
Soy Sos
I dunno. What opportunities for perversion of the PT chip exist?
The weirder and gnarlyer the better for me.
Some sort of clock/sync/reset in?
Infinite loop?
Fuckerupper?
Whatever magic/juju you stumbled across with the Plague Bearer....

More of that!
Nuuj
Reverse mode.
The ability to link two together somehow?
flight
Well, here's the flowchart again to help with ideas:
dude
green led
flight
Nuuj wrote:
Reverse mode.

Reverse what?
Quote:
The ability to link two together somehow?

Link what?
You can already "daisy-chain" as many SoS together as you want:
Delay out1 --> Input2 --> Delay out2 --> Insert1, take the output signal from Mix out1/VCA out1 & presto, double the delay length (with feedback as well)!
goiks
Soy Sos wrote:
Some sort of clock/sync/reset in?


this would be most useful.
Suburban Bather
[quote="flight"]
Nuuj wrote:
Reverse mode.

Reverse what?
[quote]

I believe he means reversed repeats, which would be awesome.
flight
This was addressed in the "FoH Delay...lay...lay..lay..ay...ay...y...???" thread, but I should post it here as well:

The PT2399 Delay IC, which is what is used in the SoS, is a self-contained digital delay on one chip: Input & output buffers, memory, and clock. Which means that there is no way to access the basic operation of the delay aside from varying the clock rate. It is a very basic (but cool!) delay that was intended just for use in Karaoke machines, so it takes a bit of work & external circuitry to even get the voltage control as in the SoS.

goiks wrote:
Soy Sos wrote:
Some sort of clock/sync/reset in?


this would be most useful.

Bearing the above in mind, there may be something that could be done here. Would you elucidate please?
Soy Sos
I guess if there is a way to hack into the clock input using various pulses, noise, CV, etc..until something brutal happens. Please keep in mind that I have no idea what I'm talking about. Just something even more Flight of Harmony.
goiks
i was thinking more along the lines of somehow varying the clock rate as a division/multiplication of another signal, to sync to a tempo. i somehow missed your discussion before, but assumed it wasn't trivial or you would have done it already.

given that the above may not be doable, any type of foh clock input magic/mayhem would be welcome.
flight
The clock is internal, so no clock input. All you can do is vary the amount of current sunk from the clock. Any new tricks done here could also be done with CV - since that is effectively what I would be doing anyway - so I didn't bother. However, perhaps something interesting (certainly chaotic) could be done with feeding the clock output (a division thereof) into the Rate control / using it to chop or gate the rate...
hmmm.....
HeWhoWantsJeans
flight wrote:
The clock is internal, so no clock input. All you can do is vary the amount of current sunk from the clock. Any new tricks done here could also be done with CV - since that is effectively what I would be doing anyway - so I didn't bother. However, perhaps something interesting (certainly chaotic) could be done with feeding the clock output (a division thereof) into the Rate control / using it to chop or gate the rate...
hmmm.....

Would there be any way to have the divisor applied to the clock output selectable or able to be modified by CV?

Bonus: what about the ability to use a Gate to turn on the 'certainly chaotic' addition?

And if any of this sound crazy, it's because I'm speaking from a dank, dark place.
MY ASS IS BLEEDING
flight
HeWhoWantsJeans wrote:

...
Would there be any way to have the divisor applied to the clock output selectable or able to be modified by CV?

Yes, that would be best. I can employ a circuit I've been pondering for a future module.
Quote:
Bonus: what about the ability to use a Gate to turn on the 'certainly chaotic' addition?

Heh, the "certainly chaotic" was not meant to be taken as an optional aspect. wink
Think about it:
Using the clock that controls the delay speed to vary the speed of the clock that controls the delay speed.

It would be a recursive implementation and very difficult to predict - assuming it is even a useful or interesting effect (but I'm pretty sure it would be).
Quote:
And if any of this sound crazy, it's because I'm speaking from a dank, dark place.
MY ASS IS BLEEDING

Nah, not at all. But you should save up some of those desiccant packets (you know, the ones that so many old people kept thinking were sugar packets that they had to start printing "Silica gel, desiccant, DO NOT EAT" on the packets?) and at least clear up that dank problem before you get mold. Ew.
jenamu6
flight wrote:

Nah, not at all. But you should save up some of those desiccant packets (you know, the ones that so many old people kept thinking were sugar packets that they had to start printing "Silica gel, desiccant, DO NOT EAT" on the packets?) and at least clear up that dank problem before you get mold. Ew.


Ate that shit once.......gave me a dry mouth, but no buzz at all.
gde
one thing i futzed around with on my old boss digital delay that you might like
is to have a hard sync input on the clock

this will not sync the delay or make it become in rhythm but it instead creates interesting formats

the boss pedal had a basic vco but if the clocking range on the PT is set by a capacitor you can achieve a sync by discharging it with a transistor

im assuming the results will vary widely from circuit to circuit but i was able to get some gnarly sounds in addition to some "pretty" timbres on the pedal
HeWhoWantsJeans
flight wrote:

Yes, that would be best. I can employ a circuit I've been pondering for a future module.

Excellent. I'm glad to hear my stupid idea is a possibility.
thumbs up

flight wrote:

Heh, the "certainly chaotic" was not meant to be taken as an optional aspect. wink

I only mean 'optional' in the sense that you could have an original delay clock time and when desired, totally SlayerBadger! it to piss.

Bonus: how would the delay clock revert back to it's original state? I imagine a world where I have a snare hit going into a SoS, which is set to (roughly) have repeats on the quarter-notes of a song. Say I click on the 'chaos' function with a gate for the last half-measure of a loop.

Snare (repeat) (repeat) (repeat) | (repeat) (repeat) *CHAOS x2*

I imagine some screaming goo yo amazingly creative sounds coming to life.

flight wrote:

Think about it:
Using the clock that controls the delay speed to vary the speed of the clock that controls the delay speed.

It would be a recursive implementation and very difficult to predict - assuming it is even a useful or interesting effect (but I'm pretty sure it would be).

It would be Dead Banana fantastic - that's what it would be.

flight wrote:
Nah, not at all. But you should save up some of those desiccant packets (you know, the ones that so many old people kept thinking were sugar packets that they had to start printing "Silica gel, desiccant, DO NOT EAT" on the packets?) and at least clear up that dank problem before you get mold. Ew.

Crap. Will that do anything about ye ol gout?
-Erik
flight
gde wrote:
one thing i futzed around with on my old boss digital delay that you might like
is to have a hard sync input on the clock

this will not sync the delay or make it become in rhythm but it instead creates interesting formats

the boss pedal had a basic vco but if the clocking range on the PT is set by a capacitor you can achieve a sync by discharging it with a transistor

im assuming the results will vary widely from circuit to circuit but i was able to get some gnarly sounds in addition to some "pretty" timbres on the pedal

No can do. The delay is *entirely* monolithic, the only external components are to set the input & output filter characteristic & frequency. The rate is controlled by the amount of current sunk from pin 6, so it's kind of tricky to do anything precise or unusual. Furthermore, using the frequency-to-delay-time table from the datasheet, the relationship of f to t (frequency to time) is somewhat irregular. Neither linear nor logarithmic. I haven't had the time to chart it out myself yet either.
computer controlled
If it was intended for Karaoke, can it do Freebird??? seriously, i just don't get it
flight
computer controlled wrote:
If it was intended for Karaoke, can it do Freebird??? seriously, i just don't get it

huh?
Kent
After looking at the block diagram and page 6 of the manual:

    •VCA on Delay out that has a Pos/Neg switch so that one can pan/cross-fade between Wet & Dry. This would also be handy for fading in inserted FX as well.
    •Perhaps add a simple & passive 2:1 mixer on there as well for easy Wet/Dry action. It looks as if the current implementation of the onboard VCA is Post-Wet/Dry Mix so this could be cool.

    •Any circuit bends on the PT chip? Perhaps some momentary push-buttons or SPST (or other) switches if fun is to be had here.

    •Bring the clock out to the panel? Your description of the clock on the PT leads me to think that it is an oddball. It could still be fun to clock something like a Doepfer A-188-* with it.

    •RTEPT3 v. ref. for rate control minimum. Can this be abused?
gde
how does the clock respond to audiorate control voltages?
flight
Kent wrote:
After looking at the block diagram and page 6 of the manual:
    •VCA on Delay out that has a Pos/Neg switch so that one can pan/cross-fade between Wet & Dry. This would also be handy for fading in inserted FX as well.

Not quite sure what you mean here, but it has reminded me that I was thinking about a VC Mix.
Quote:
•Perhaps add a simple & passive 2:1 mixer on there as well for easy Wet/Dry action. It looks as if the current implementation of the onboard VCA is Post-Wet/Dry Mix so this could be cool.

Still unsure.
Quote:
•Any circuit bends on the PT chip? Perhaps some momentary push-buttons or SPST (or other) switches if fun is to be had here.

Good idea. There are a few bend points on there that I found. I made a test rig that brings all the connections out for easier testing and I often end up playing with the exposed traces.
Quote:
•Bring the clock out to the panel? Your description of the clock on the PT leads me to think that it is an oddball. It could still be fun to clock something like a Doepfer A-188-* with it.

Yup, doing this.
Quote:
•RTEPT3 v. ref. for rate control minimum. Can this be abused?

Possibly... I have to look at it again.

gde wrote:
how does the clock respond to audiorate control voltages?

Damn good question, anybody want to chime in on this?
dude
i'll check in a second if someone hasn't already
Soy Sos
As far as the expansion goes, I say really take your time. The additions should take full advantage on any exploitable quirks in the circuit to turn an already very cool delay into something truly otherworldly. I love the idea of bends or happy mistake crossed wires that do something this thing was never meant to do. I had some great stuff going with the Choices controlling delay time and frequency of a Polivoks in the feedback look and a Pressure Points running feedback. Good shit.
dude
SoS is amazing with any input signals be them lfo slow or audio rate. it does crazy shit in audio territory but it works wonders. i also just figured out how to make it flange REALLY nice (inspired by Kent of course). as always, attenuators are our friends in regards to the incoming modulation of the SoS. definitely jacks for cv and attenuation for them!
dude
i am still jazzed about the SoS!
neandrewthal
dude wrote:
SoS is amazing with any input signals be them lfo slow or audio rate. it does crazy shit in audio territory but it works wonders. i also just figured out how to make it flange REALLY nice (inspired by Kent of course). as always, attenuators are our friends in regards to the incoming modulation of the SoS. definitely jacks for cv and attenuation for them!


Vids or it never happened hyper
Kent
Flight,

If you are already considering a VC-Mix control then that takes care of items # 1 & 2 on my list. I wasn't sure if it was possible, given the block diagram, so I was giving an overly long explanation of a kludge that could work.

If there were some way to have a Wet/Dry control on the Insert point, that would be swell.
dude
i shoot vids like monkey bake birthday cake
Soy Sos
gde wrote:
how does the clock respond to audiorate control voltages?

Also just checked that out. An ATTENUATED audio rate signal in to rate does some nice almost ring-mod like effects on the delay. Too much signal and it goes into very nasty and loud noise.
VanEck
Quote:
Quote:
•Any circuit bends on the PT chip? Perhaps some momentary push-buttons or SPST (or other) switches if fun is to be had here.

Good idea. There are a few bend points on there that I found. I made a test rig that brings all the connections out for easier testing and I often end up playing with the exposed traces.


This definitely has my interest! Some "sound of thunder" type of circuit bending switches on the expansion would be rad... what kind of bends have you found so far Flight?
johnnymad
i agree. some circuit bends would be cool, even if they just do something simple like change the color of the the sound.
flight
Soy Sos wrote:
As far as the expansion goes, I say really take your time. The additions should take full advantage on any exploitable quirks in the circuit to turn an already very cool delay into something truly otherworldly. I love the idea of bends or happy mistake crossed wires that do something this thing was never meant to do. I had some great stuff going with the Choices controlling delay time and frequency of a Polivoks in the feedback look and a Pressure Points running feedback. Good shit.

I will (take my time), don't worry. I'm actually thinking of doing two expansions: the first will just have the Rate LED and attenuated CV inputs, and be about 6-8hp. Now that it looks like there will be enough for it, the other will have the "exotic" functions and probably be 8-10hp.
Kent wrote:

Flight,
If you are already considering a VC-Mix control then that takes care of items # 1 & 2 on my list. I wasn't sure if it was possible, given the block diagram, so I was giving an overly long explanation of a kludge that could work.
*Phew* OK, cool.
Quote:
If there were some way to have a Wet/Dry control on the Insert point, that would be swell.
Probably not - the Insert is hard-wired - but what other signal would you mix in there? Any combination I can think of is really the job of a mixer. I'm trying to avoid duplicating common existing modules.
VanEck wrote:
... what kind of bends have you found so far Flight?

Mostly just rate and feedback weirdness so far. I haven't actually tried finding any, just happenstance.
Soy Sos
Here's that audio rate CV. Damn I'm having fun with this one!
http://soundcloud.com/soy-sos-sweet-sounds/sliding-scale
Kent
Kent wrote:
If there were some way to have a Wet/Dry control on the Insert point, that would be swell.

He Who Lurks In Shadows wrote:
Probably not - the Insert is hard-wired - but what other signal would you mix in there? Any combination I can think of is really the job of a mixer. I'm trying to avoid duplicating common existing modules.


This would be so that the inserted effect could be faded into the insert point. Imagine if you could fade in a Moog MuRF or a Phaser onto the delay repeats. That's what I'm getting at.
flight
Kent wrote:
...
This would be so that the inserted effect could be faded into the insert point. Imagine if you could fade in a Moog MuRF or a Phaser onto the delay repeats. That's what I'm getting at.

First, gotta say, I love the new name. It fits! I do love to lurk.

Could you describe that signal-chain-wise? I'm having a hard time with it. My guess:
Signal into input --> Delay out to effect --> effect output to Insert.
So are you saying you want to crossfade from the "plain" delay out signal to the "effected" delay signal?

I should probably make a clearer block diagram before we continue... the existing one is very vague for this kind of thing - we need a schematic.
HeWhoWantsJeans
flight wrote:

I will (take my time), don't worry. I'm actually thinking of doing two expansions: the first will just have the Rate LED and attenuated CV inputs, and be about 6-8hp. Now that it looks like there will be enough for it, the other will have the "exotic" functions and probably be 8-10hp.

Can I pre-order one of each?
thumbs up
flight
HeWhoWantsJeans wrote:
...Can I pre-order one of each?
thumbs up

Sure! As soon as I have an idea on cost. wink

And the "flowmatic" (attachment):
johnnymad
could one of the expansion modules have the word "turbo" in the name? i just really like the word turbo.
computer controlled
TURBO

neandrewthal
flight wrote:
computer controlled wrote:
If it was intended for Karaoke, can it do Freebird??? seriously, i just don't get it

huh?


lol

dude wrote:
i shoot vids like monkey bake birthday cake


huh?
Soy Sos
OK...back on task...haha. lol
Clever people, please let us know what mystical incantations can be derived from Flights "flowmatic". I know little of these matters.
HeWhoWantsJeans
*boing boing*.

This idea needs a bit of explanation:

The other day Exuviae brought over his SoS and wanted to compare his to mine. With the same source material going to both and with the knobs set the same, we both cranked down our Rate knobs to see how "pukey" it could get.

Mine would get ugly (in a good way, mind you) around 8 o'clock, and if the rate was increased, it'd stutter back to life in a glorious way.

His would never get that dirty. The delay times would increase, sure - but the material wouldn't get ugly (or pukey, really).

We might have a recording of this (maybe, Audacity took a dump on me) but this brings up a question - is there any way to 'tailor' the response of the Rate knob? I glanced at the PCB when moving things around in my rack, and I didn't see any trim pots to adjust.

Any idea regarding the different responses, 'Flight? Maybe this is something that could be an end-user mod or maybe there is something to possibly exploit for the expansion.

Speaking of which, any ideas? screaming goo yo
HeWhoWantsJeans
I don't know how the hell I quoted myself.

I blame the Interweb, sorry.
scozbor
OK I'm about to order the barebones.

Can I assume the barebones works with future expansions in the same way as the pre-assembled module??

I'm thinking to wait for the expansions, then stuff the module + expansions behind one face plate. thumbs up
money bags
Quote:
OK I'm about to order the barebones.

Can I assume the barebones works with future expansions in the same way as the pre-assembled module??

I'm thinking to wait for the expansions, then stuff the module + expansions behind one face plate.

im in the same boat Soapbox (imagine the soap is a boat)
scozbor
Boat

there's an emoticon for everything
felixer
i understand that one of the things that can be changed is the filters (pre and post delay). that might be useful ....
also boosting the output to put it back in the 'normal modular' +/-5v range would be good.
about reverse delay: the idea is that the sound comes out in the reverse order then that it went in. like reversing the tape: epat eht gnisrever (yes i'm old enough to have done that as it was the only way to get that effect 20 years ago hihi ). great sound but impossible with this chip, i'm afraid.
flight
HeWhoWantsJeans wrote:
*boing boing*.

This idea needs a bit of explanation:

The other day Exuviae brought over his SoS and wanted to compare his to mine. With the same source material going to both and with the knobs set the same, we both cranked down our Rate knobs to see how "pukey" it could get.

Mine would get ugly (in a good way, mind you) around 8 o'clock, and if the rate was increased, it'd stutter back to life in a glorious way.

His would never get that dirty. The delay times would increase, sure - but the material wouldn't get ugly (or pukey, really).

We might have a recording of this (maybe, Audacity took a dump on me) but this brings up a question - is there any way to 'tailor' the response of the Rate knob? I glanced at the PCB when moving things around in my rack, and I didn't see any trim pots to adjust.

Any idea regarding the different responses, 'Flight? Maybe this is something that could be an end-user mod or maybe there is something to possibly exploit for the expansion.

Speaking of which, any ideas? screaming goo yo

Wow, apologies for letting this go for so long!
Yes, the Rate preset can be tailored; you can even do it from the header connectors on the rear: The RTCV1 pin goes to the same summing node as the Rate CV jack and the Rate pot, it just requires a 100k resistor in series with any voltage. You could connect a trimpot (5k or greater) with one leg to the V+ pin, the other leg to a GND pin (or even to the V- pin if it really needs some adjusting), and the wiper to the 100k resistor to the RTCV1 pin and adjust to the desired behavior/crap out point.

Regarding Exuviae's SoS, what supply voltage is his running on? Part of the testing for every SoS is that it should get glitchy & crap out around 8:30-9:00.
Exuviae
Hello-

I can test my SOS again to see where the rate range is actually at. There was a post here a while back and some words from Kevin that basically stated I should have the Insert knob cranked when not using the Insert jack, and then adjust feedback to taste. I seem to have gotten great results this way...but ...I don't think mine gets all that glitchy still going below 9:00

I do, however, seem to notice occasional hum based on higher feedback settings. This could be the ModularWorld case I use as others have said they also get hum sometimes.

Let me tinker some more and post results in the next day or so.

Brooks
felixer
guys, remember that the value of pots can differ by 25%. even from the same manufacturer/batch. that is why the stereo pots for really good hifi equiment are so expensive: to ensure an equal response for left/right isn't easy. and unfortunalty doesn't come cheap ....
nice thinking though that you can do some trimming on the back. might even be possible to diy/offer an expansion option with an extra-high quality stereo pot to ensure that two sos wil 'track' for stereo use? although i like chaos and would probably even avoid any syncronicity 8_)
Gribs
I just picked up a SOS and would buy an expansion for sure. The attenuators will be quite welcome.
dude
any word on the expansion?
blungo2
Sorry, to be lazy and not read through the whole thread, but what all will the expansion do?

Hey that was my 1k post! 8_)
dude
any word on the expansion release?
vav
poke
flight
Quote:
poke

Shit, sorry.
No word yet. I'm waiting on an outside party to finish work on the µC to get the damn LED to blink in time with the delay - it's a pain in the butt.
levka
Any developments on the SoS expander(s) ?
HeWhoWantsJeans
levka wrote:
Any developments on the SoS expander(s) ?

THIS THREAD HAS BEEN BUMPED... no.

RESURRECTED.


Any news, Flight?
levka
Re-bump!

No news on this whatsoever?

HeWhoWantsJeans wrote:
levka wrote:
Any developments on the SoS expander(s) ?

THIS THREAD HAS BEEN BUMPED... no.

RESURRECTED.


Any news, Flight?
flight
Awright! Awright! I hear yah! razz
I'se been busy filling dealer orders and haven't had any time to work on the SoS expansion yet. It will be done - and before summer - but I just can't say when yet, sorry. seriously, i just don't get it
levka
thumbs up
levka
Summer's almost here ... hyper

flight wrote:
Awright! Awright! I hear yah! razz
I'se been busy filling dealer orders and haven't had any time to work on the SoS expansion yet. It will be done - and before summer - but I just can't say when yet, sorry. seriously, i just don't get it
Kakihara
aaaaaaaaa.....
levka
pre-autumn bump hihi
flight
oops Sorry about the wait here all.
The SoS Expansion is still on the list, don't worry. I decided to get some other issues figured out first: bad jacks, noisy pots, shitty VCA performance, and so on. It looks like everything's almost under control, so I hope to get back to work on this by Fall.
levka
Thanks for the update, highly appreciated

Looking really forward to this module.
z3r01
Bumpity-bump.

Hope the expansion is nearing release. thumbs up
z3r01
Just wondering, are there any updates on the expansion module for the SoS? Mr. Green
subterryanean
Something that I would imagine could be done with the PT chip is make the sound "loop." With a switch/trigger, whatever is in the buffer just gets stuck in there, playing over and over, without going into oscillation. That way you could send it random gates and the repeats would stutter.
ronaldroy
Did this ever happen?
dude
no i don't think it ever happened.
thundermouse
i'm gonna write a letter to Santa for this. I know it's early, but we've been really good. My sister's boyfriend's cousin's best friend is an intern at the North Pole.
Liquidyzer
Just got hold of my 1st sound of shadows, love it! This expansion would be a real +++ thumbs up
TWINSTATES
ON A SOS expansion.

Purleaase.

Yours are some of my favorites, esp the SOS
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