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Eurorack Video Modules |
lizlarsen
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 Posted: Fri Jun 11, 2010 11:03 pm Post subject: |
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Dave, those are all great points! I have a couple more comments, just to explain our reasoning behind the design decisions we made...
On converter/interface modules -- We were originally considering having double inputs or switches on our inputs for 10V or 1V signals, but decided it would clutter the system too much and add too much cost. Rather than passing this cost on to the user, which could be annoying for someone interested in a primarily video system, we decided to have the conversion modules, so that users can pick whatever they need for their setup. Also, sometimes the interface modules themselves provide useful output conditioning -- our "Audiovisualization Tools" module will offer several types of outputs (envelope followers, band-pass filtered outs, frequency-to-voltage) from a single audio input.
There are some drawbacks to the Jones stereo jack solution, although it's quite genius! For example, you can't mult a video signal, you still need a conversion module to run video out through non-video modules (or LZX modules), and you can't use stacking cables. The ease of use, however, of patching straight in, instead of through a conversion module is huge. But it's all gonna mean different things to different people, depending on their systems.
On bipolar signals and bias controls -- While the LZX modules respond to 0-to-1V CV ranges and that's the expected range for viewable video, all of our processing modules can process bipolar signals just as well. And with the switched mode attenuverters, it's like there are positive bias controls for "free". Some of our modules do include separate bias controls, such as the Color Video Encoder, and control inputs on the Video Waveform Generator.
And a general comment, philosophy-wise -- I come from a computer graphics/programming background -- so I'm used to seeing things like RGB and HSB sliders in Photoshop all the time -- so naturally the 0% to 100% triple colorspace workflow is what made the most sense to me, as well as things like mathematical blending modes like "Color Difference", (which is achievable with our Video Blending Matrix's Absolute outputs)
On VCAs -- It's worth noting that the Triple Colorspace signals without the chroma subcarrier are much less susceptible to pot noise than Composite Color. It also came down to cost -- with triple modules, that's a lot of VCAs! Our inputs are buffered with wideband video op-amps right as they enter the module, before the attenuverter, and quality components are used throughout.
In any case, it's apparent how both workflows will be interesting to use together! I can envision a rack of LZX modules focusing on tons of VCOs and blending matrixes, and two output encoders feeding a Jones system for further colorization/processing and blending with external color images from cameras, etc.
Maybe it's close to time to start a Video Synthesis subforum...? |
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Animal
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| Posted: Sat Jun 12, 2010 12:01 am Post subject: |
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It's great to see this and I'm very excited to start educating myself on video synthesis.... many new words for me to learn and understand.
As well, I will mention that Laserpalace's avatar is magnificently imperious and godlike; threatening yet strangely narcotic. 
I like it. |
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felixer
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| Posted: Sat Jun 12, 2010 12:06 pm Post subject: |
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| Animal wrote: |
As well, I will mention that Laserpalace's avatar is magnificently imperious and godlike; threatening yet strangely narcotic.
I like it. |
like your avatar too. i can almost hear him scream: 'KRUPA, KRUPA' 
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daverj
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| Posted: Sat Jun 12, 2010 2:05 pm Post subject: |
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| creatorlars wrote: | | On VCAs -- It's worth noting that the Triple Colorspace signals without the chroma subcarrier are much less susceptible to pot noise than Composite Color. |
Back when I was changing pots on a regular schedule because pot noise was getting into the video, we only had black and white cameras at the TV Center. Of course the pots were being turned all day every day, so did get a lot of use. Time will tell. Also the quality and composition of the pots will affect their life.
| creatorlars wrote: | | It also came down to cost -- with triple modules, that's a lot of VCAs! |
Very true. Having VCAs for every attenuator does increase the cost and size of the circuits. A definite drawback. But since most users aren't DIY folks, it can reduce how often they have to send modules in for pot replacement. A number of my video devices have been in daily use for 25 years (some for 35 years), so I've seen a lot of pots get replaced.
| creatorlars wrote: | | Our inputs are buffered with wideband video op-amps right as they enter the module, before the attenuverter, and quality components are used throughout. |
I'm also using wideband low noise video amps and quality components, along with high frequency design and layout techniques. I also had my mini-jacks customized during manufacturing to double their life, as well as using pots with 5 times the normal life of the pots used on most Euro modules.
| creatorlars wrote: | | Maybe it's close to time to start a Video Synthesis subforum...? |
The problem with specialized subforums is that a lot of people with a casual interest tend to not go into them. On the other hand there are maybe some people interested in video who haven't seen this thread because they don't use Euro. Like everything, there's reasons for it and against it.
Either way, the video party is about to start!   
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daverj
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| Posted: Sat Jun 12, 2010 2:39 pm Post subject: |
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| creatorlars wrote: | There are some drawbacks to the Jones stereo jack solution, although it's quite genius! For example, you can't mult a video signal, you still need a conversion module to run video out through non-video modules (or LZX modules), and you can't use stacking cables. The ease of use, however, of patching straight in, instead of through a conversion module is huge. But it's all gonna mean different things to different people, depending on their systems.
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I forgot to comment on this in the previous post.
Even if I was using standard mini jacks for the video, passive mults wouldn't work. All of my video inputs are terminated with 75 ohms, like standard video, to reduce noise and distortion. So passive mults would double or triple terminate the signals.
I do have a module that is the equivalent of a buffered mult, which in reality is a mini video "distribution amp".
I haven't made a module yet to convert from video to +/-5 for non-video modules, though it's a pretty simple one to make and I will add it at some point. For the most part standard Euro modules can't handle even a fraction of the bandwidth of video.
My video oscillator does have two sets of output jacks. One set of Jones video jacks and another set of standard mono +/-5 minis to go to regular Euro modules. (though again, most of the frequencies of that oscillator are way beyond what standard Euro modules can handle). There are a couple of other modules with special +/-5 outputs meant to go directly to non-video modules.
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gde
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| Posted: Sat Jun 12, 2010 5:09 pm Post subject: |
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| daverj wrote: | | creatorlars wrote: | | Maybe it's close to time to start a Video Synthesis subforum...? |
The problem with specialized subforums is that a lot of people with a casual interest tend to not go into them. On the other hand there are maybe some people interested in video who haven't seen this thread because they don't use Euro. Like everything, there's reasons for it and against it.
Either way, the video party is about to start! |
not all video synthesis is euro... 
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lizlarsen
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| Posted: Sat Jun 12, 2010 5:25 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | not all video synthesis is euro... |
I've had so many people e-mail with great questions and wonderful discussions just about video synthesizers in general!! It would be great to have had all those in forum threads.
| Quote: | | the video party is about to start! |
PARRRTY TIIIMEE!! 
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felixer
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| Posted: Sat Jun 12, 2010 5:49 pm Post subject: |
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i'm still learning about all this video stuff so any info is welcom. maybe there are some sites/magazines/books that would make recommended reading? anything i know from the 70ies/80ies is maybe/probably outdated?
live interactive image manipulation always seemed out of reach so i didn't keep up 
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lizlarsen
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amnesia
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| Posted: Sat Jun 12, 2010 5:57 pm Post subject: Re: Eurorack Video Modules |
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| laserpalace wrote: | I've been thinking about getting a beauty case to house video modules for a while now. Outside of the Analogue Solutions VD-01, does anyone know of any other euro video modules. I think it would be great for live performance, this video has been pretty inspiring : http://vimeo.com/7517418
(obviously not looking for anything as complex as the Rutt Etra) |
I would love to be able to do this :-)
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amnesia
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lizlarsen
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| Posted: Sat Jun 12, 2010 7:46 pm Post subject: |
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Stephen Jones' stuff is great -- he also designed the SuperNova 12 which is owned by my friend Jeffrey Plaide -- his YouTube channel has a plethora of great content...
http://www.youtube.com/user/JeffreyPlaide
The SuperNova 12 is a pseudo-modular system, with 12 custom designed VCOs, some effects/mixer modules in a big rack along with an NTSC sync generator and a 2-input TBC Color Mixer/Keyer unit, etc.
http://www.audiovisualizers.com/toolshak/vidsynth/snova_12/snova_12.ht m
From what I understand, Stephen Jones used a Serge Modular System to supply voltages for some of his custom video circuitry. My partner with LZX, Ed, got to attend a seminar with Tom Ellard/Stephen Jones several months back where they had a few of their video synth circuits on display.
Dave, you should be able to comment on some of the more arcane machines out there, with your involvement in the Experimental TV Center! I really can't believe I haven't tried harder to make the trip up there yet.
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numan7
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| Posted: Sat Jun 12, 2010 8:32 pm Post subject: |
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| creatorlars wrote: | | Quote: | | the video party is about to start! |
PARRRTY TIIIMEE!!
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OH FVCK YES!!!!!!!
Lars that's so awesome - do have an lfo saturating everything to white during the last 00:40? the last part of the video looks extra wicked cool 
and awesome thread, !!! soaking in the knowledge (plz keep the tips/examples coming, btw), and getting prepared to experiment.... hope to see a big box of lxz arriving soon!!!
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numan7
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| Posted: Sat Jun 12, 2010 8:35 pm Post subject: |
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oops - i meant "lzx arriving soon ..." above  |
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lizlarsen
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| Posted: Sat Jun 12, 2010 8:50 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | do have an lfo saturating everything to white during the last 00:40? |
In this patch, the three outputs of the Triple Video Fader & Key Generator are feeding the A, B & C columns of the Matrix, and the D column is supplied by yep, an LFO from the Doepfer A-138-1 Complex Envelope Generator/LFO module (by way of the Voltage Interface I). The "Absolute" outputs then go straight into the encoder R, G & B ins. Basically the LFO acts as a slow bias which shifts the inversion point of the video thru zero. Which is really fun!
I'm also modulating the VCO with one of the keys from the external video, which is a personal favorite effect.
This Doepfer A-138-1 module is pretty neat for video because you can chain the LFOs together in a multi-phase relationship -- this allows you to do complex color rotations with lots of control. Multi-phase outputs are very good for Triple Colorspace patches. Our second VCO module will probably be based on tri-phase outputs, but you can do similar things using the Video Waveform Generators, using Pulse outputs to reset each other in a chain.
| Quote: | | hope to see a big box of lxz arriving soon!!! |
There's a box here with your name on it ready to go -- I'll have a tracking number for you sometime on Monday.
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daverj
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| Posted: Sun Jun 13, 2010 2:04 pm Post subject: |
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| gde wrote: |
not all video synthesis is euro...
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True. Though I'm not aware of anybody who has announced plans for a commercial video synth in any other modular format.
Before deciding on Euro I looked at all the other popular modular formats and while Modcan and MOTM were physically closer to the scale of panels on the video synths I and others had made in the past, my goal this time around was to make an "Experimental TV Center in a suitcase". So Euro is what I settled on.
There are several software synths out there, the most popular being MAX/MSP/Jitter. There have been a couple of commercial VJ boxes in the past few years too. And of course the classic "SEG" style video mixers which have various preset special effects. But I wouldn't consider them synths.
There are a few people who have made DIY synths in recent years, but so far I haven't seen any of those reach commercial sales.
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lizlarsen
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daverj
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| Posted: Sun Jun 13, 2010 2:54 pm Post subject: |
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| creatorlars wrote: | | Dave, you should be able to comment on some of the more arcane machines out there, with your involvement in the Experimental TV Center! I really can't believe I haven't tried harder to make the trip up there yet. |
The links you gave earlier for the TV Center's Video History Project, and to the AudioVisualizers V-Synth page give a lot of info on the old systems.
Back in the 70s the high cost of making this stuff and the spendable income of people working in video never lined up, so there were only very small quantities made of any v-synth.
The most prolific was probably the Sandin IP, which was never sold commercially. It was a DIY system. Dan gave out the plans to his students and anybody else that asked for them. There were dozens of those systems made. There was one guy that folded the metal enclosures and sold them to anybody that didn't want to try doing that part. There were blank PC boards available at one time too. And for a short time there was somebody selling color encoder modules that he had made from encoder boards pulled from color cameras.
The Rutt-Etra, which was a scan processor who's output required pointing a camera at a monitor in order to record it. The R_E was one of the best known, but in reality was made in very small quantities. A number of owners of those systems got together a couple of years ago in the studio of a friend of mine to do a group re-build project to replace worn out capacitors and other parts. Steve Rutt went there and helped them to figure out the wiring.
Bill Hearn sold probably a couple dozen of his EAB VideoLab units to schools back in the 70s. They were what would be considered semi-modular systems. A number of devices in one box that could be patched together.
I believe there were 8 PAVS (Paik-Abe Video Synthesizer) ever built. They were built by Shuya Abe for Nam June Paik, who sold most of them to studios. The first one was built at the Experimental TV Center. They weren't true "synths". They were colorizers and weren't voltage controlled (I modified a couple of them to add voltage control).
Eric Seigel and George Brown each made small quantities of colorizers, used by video artists. Colorado Video (CVi) made an industrial colorizer that was extremely expensive and used only by places like NASA and researchers.
Stephen Beck made a couple of video synths that were pure image generators. No cameras. They were never sold commercially. Some of his stuff was designed to interface to Buchla audio synths.
But this is all a bit off track from the OP, since none of these are available in Euro.
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Monobass
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lizlarsen
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| Posted: Sun Jun 13, 2010 7:33 pm Post subject: |
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My access to a bigger EuroRack system is limited. I'll do some demos with my sequencer/banana modular tonight or tomorrow. On the 27th I'll be taking the trek to Dallas for the modular meet-up party and plan to record as many cross-patched demos as possible!
I'd really like to play with a more complex controller-based patch, some joysticks and a TKB sending CV in tandem to audio and video.
If any of you are in Austin area and want to drop by with your Euro system (or want me to drop by with mine) let's try out some audio/video patching!
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