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converting between minijacks and bananas on 200e
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Author converting between minijacks and bananas on 200e
Parallel Worlds
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 23, 2011 1:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

BUT, you maybe can bypass these problems, with a bit of voltage attenuation and offseting....

i recently made a patch, using audio from my two 254v (and envelops from my 281e) and gating the two 254v's, using one serge vca and one euro analogue systems vca. (i wish i had a second 292e, but i do not now...)

as you all know, AS vca is all minijacks and Serge vca is all banana's.

guess what: after converting between the sockets (using a custom banana to minijack panel i have in my Serge, which is passive!) everything worked fine! only a bit of attenuation was needed to tame the voltage output from the 281e AD, when it was controlling the serge vca that needs less voltage to fully open.

so, it worked and it sounded awesome.

so, probably, these voltage differences in the banana's and tinyjax sockets of the Buchla are not SO important (and difficult to overcome) after all...

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Parallel Worlds
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 23, 2011 3:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

phew...
back from the 200e...

so, i tested: audio rate modulation of panning in 206e, sounds just fine!

audio rate running AD's (from 281e) as input to frequency shifter and ringmod also sound very nice and special!

cross-patching gives nice results indeed! thumbs up

the results: one more nice rhythmic scape recorded for my next album...

cross-patch away! Guinness ftw!

(with attenuation needed in some points...)

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Parallel Worlds
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 23, 2011 3:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

regarding the offset that the buchla banana outs may have:

my tests just showed that there is no offset at all.
in detail: i tested the 250e cv1 out, stopped in a step with this step knob turned all the way to 0volts. my analog voltometer showed 0volts
(my voltometer being a Doepfer A-197 module).

also tested the cv out of an AD from an 281e, without it being triggered by anything. again 0volts.

so, no offset in the Buchla 200e banana outs.
(unless there is offset in the 259e and 261e mod osc banana outs?)

...the weather for cross-patching seems fine....

also, no module of mine has been damaged so far, from today's crosspatching...
(but cross-patch at your own risk of course...)

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dougcl
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 23, 2011 4:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I think what is meant by offset, is the fact that CV is unipolar. Audio signals are bipolar. So comparing a sine say, on the mod osc banana out with the mod osc audio out, you should see a unipolar signal from the banana, and bipolar from the audio. In other words, the banana output has an offset to bring the whole wave into the positive region. The audio out doesn't.

This is one of the reasons that Buchla separates the cv from the audio. Also, considering the dual purpose of the 281e, both envelope and LFO, it makes sense that all CV should be unipolar.
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jenamu6
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 23, 2011 4:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Gotta love those Buchlaboys....
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chrisso
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 23, 2011 4:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I think the perceived limitation is a strength.
The separation of audio from control forces you to think in new ways, or patch in new configurations leading to new sounds and new ways of doing things.
If Buchla 200e is your only modular system it makes sense to get as much flexibility and freedom out of it as possible. If the 200e sits alongside other modular systems, I'd suggest working with those in known ways, and finding new ways to work with the Buchla.
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oljud
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 23, 2011 5:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Go for it! I've been patching my school's Buchla 200 a lot and the school had three home soldered banana-to-tini-cables. I used them A LOT. Using a 284 cross-patched as oscillators, using the 16 step sequencer as a wavetable synth, also while sending a 20khz sine tone into it's analog input (aliasing! noise!). It's lovely, and i get all the good stuff about patch legibility and better signal integrity. I DON'T CARE!

The source of uncertainty should be a fantastic noise oscillator with feedback and stuff. Unfortunately my school only had the boring kind. No CV control :-(

There should be a law that everythinh must have banana's. I'm going to go euro, but I want bananas...
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Parallel Worlds
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 23, 2011 5:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

dougcl wrote:
I think what is meant by offset, is the fact that CV is unipolar. Audio signals are bipolar. So comparing a sine say, on the mod osc banana out with the mod osc audio out, you should see a unipolar signal from the banana, and bipolar from the audio. In other words, the banana output has an offset to bring the whole wave into the positive region. The audio out doesn't.

This is one of the reasons that Buchla separates the cv from the audio. Also, considering the dual purpose of the 281e, both envelope and LFO, it makes sense that all CV should be unipolar.


ok, that makes sense of course.
yes, in that sense then, there is offset in various cv sources of 200e, as all are unipolar.
so, if you treat these unipolar cv's, as audio, this audio (for example, a 250e running in audio rate) will have a dc-offset. ok.

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Parallel Worlds
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 23, 2011 6:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

chrisso wrote:
I think the perceived limitation is a strength.
The separation of audio from control forces you to think in new ways, or patch in new configurations leading to new sounds and new ways of doing things.
If Buchla 200e is your only modular system it makes sense to get as much flexibility and freedom out of it as possible. If the 200e sits alongside other modular systems, I'd suggest working with those in known ways, and finding new ways to work with the Buchla.


ok, but it is still a limitation.

but, all it takes is a converting patch panel, so, even this limitation is very easily bypassed... smile

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Parallel Worlds
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 23, 2011 6:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

dougcl wrote:
I think what is meant by offset, is the fact that CV is unipolar. Audio signals are bipolar. So comparing a sine say, on the mod osc banana out with the mod osc audio out, you should see a unipolar signal from the banana, and bipolar from the audio. In other words, the banana output has an offset to bring the whole wave into the positive region. The audio out doesn't.

This is one of the reasons that Buchla separates the cv from the audio. Also, considering the dual purpose of the 281e, both envelope and LFO, it makes sense that all CV should be unipolar.


btw, in that sense, many serge NTO/PCO waveform outputs have offset (as they are not Bipolar, apart from the sinewave), various euro modules lfo outputs have offsets, etc, etc... but there is nothing stopping anyone to use these as audio sources of course.
after all, the ac-coupled audio inputs in various other audio processing modules, will cut-out the dc-offset of a unipolar signal....

...so, in the end, the 200e is actually a pretty cross-patching friendly machine! thumbs up

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franzschuier
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 24, 2011 3:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Parallel Worlds wrote:
.
in detail: i tested the 250e cv1 out, stopped in a step with this step knob turned all the way to 0volts. my analog voltometer showed 0volts
(my voltometer being a Doepfer A-197 module).

also tested the cv out of an AD from an 281e, without it being triggered by anything. again 0volts.

so, no offset in the Buchla 200e banana outs.
(unless there is offset in the 259e and 261e mod osc banana outs?)

...the weather for cross-patching seems fine....

also, no module of mine has been damaged so far, from today's crosspatching...
(but cross-patch at your own risk of course...)


We should have a buchla sticky with voltages and infos like this!

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dougcl
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 24, 2011 5:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Parallel Worlds wrote:

btw, in that sense, many serge NTO/PCO waveform outputs have offset (as they are not Bipolar, apart from the sinewave), various euro modules lfo outputs have offsets, etc, etc... but there is nothing stopping anyone to use these as audio sources of course.


In general for euro, no. This is surprising to hear about in Serge-land.

The Buchla does seem to tolerate negative voltages into the CV jacks, they are however simply ignored. So if you run your euro LFO into a Buchla banana, only half the signal will do anything unless you employ some kind of offset manually.
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Parallel Worlds
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 24, 2011 5:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

dougcl wrote:
Parallel Worlds wrote:

btw, in that sense, many serge NTO/PCO waveform outputs have offset (as they are not Bipolar, apart from the sinewave), various euro modules lfo outputs have offsets, etc, etc... but there is nothing stopping anyone to use these as audio sources of course.


In general for euro, no. This is surprising to hear about in Serge-land.

The Buchla does seem to tolerate negative voltages into the CV jacks, they are however simply ignored. So if you run your euro LFO into a Buchla banana, only half the signal will do anything unless you employ some kind of offset manually.


yep, the doepfer lfo's have some waveforms that are bipolar and some unipolar, (and maybe that is true for other lfo modules from other euro makers), so, there's the offset you mention...
also some waveforms of the Serge vco's are unipolar and the sinewave is bipolar.
but, in a system with a single nature of sockets that is no problem really. you use the offset in some cases as you like and, in other cases, you just add some negative cv offset and make the offset-ed wave bipolar... smile

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e-grad
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 24, 2011 6:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

What might perceived as a limitation today has obviously historical reasons. To understand why CV and audio signals are seperated you'll have to keep in mind the electronical constraints in the 1970s. Regarding the 200e: Don wanted to keep the standard he has established in the 1970s.

What is called a repeatedly a limitation is none from the point of view by someone who wants to mix and match both a 200 system and a 200e system.

Quote:
Electrical compatibility is also important, and our last power supply revision was in 1970. The 200e provides highly regulated supplies at plus and minus 15 Volts (not the 12 Volts of the external power supply), a fact easily confirmed with a little probing of the innards. Only two older modules, again the 212 and 275, require an additional voltage (24 Volts).
Signal, control voltage and pulse levels are another aspect of compatibility. Once again, our last revision was in 1970 all 200 modules, including 200e versions, have followed suit. My conclusion is that the 200e series modules maintain their intended compatibility with their predecessors, with the aforementioned rare exceptions.

Don Buchla http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/mar06/articles/crosstalk.htm


Quote:
The early Buchlas utilized several power supplies of different voltages, there were no LEDs at the time so incandescent lamps were used all over the front panels and these had their own power requirements. Also the control voltage were a mighty ten or even more volts in the system, while the outside world was using the standard one volt peak to peak audio line level and Don adapted his audio chain to those levels. The simplest way to keep all of that isolated was to use separate connectors. It was probably this necessary isolation between control and audio that lead to exploration with opto-isolators and the rest is Low Pass Gate history.

From: Cynthia Webster
Subject: Re: [sdiy] to banana or not to banana
Date: Wed, 24 Jun 2009 10:00:29 -0700

Quote:
The Buchla philosophy here is that by having a different connector, the audio can travel safely on shielded wires at line level, and the audio paths are visually distinct from the control paths. The visual distinction is not to be sneezed at. I find that when tracing a control path, I don't really even see the mini cables carrying audio.

Having system audio running at line level means that tapping an audio signal at any point in a patch and sending it to an external processor is a simple matter of mini-plug to 1/4" cables. Buchla systems also tend to have mini jacks for FM/AM where needed.

From: Chris Muir
Subject: Re: [sdiy] to banana or not to banana
Date: Wed, 24 Jun 2009 10:16:32 -0700

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Lyonel
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 24, 2011 6:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Quote:
Quote:
The Buchla philosophy here is that by having a different connector, the audio can travel safely on shielded wires at line level, and the audio paths are visually distinct from the control paths. The visual distinction is not to be sneezed at. I find that when tracing a control path, I don't really even see the mini cables carrying audio.

Having system audio running at line level means that tapping an audio signal at any point in a patch and sending it to an external processor is a simple matter of mini-plug to 1/4" cables. Buchla systems also tend to have mini jacks for FM/AM where needed.

From: Chris Muir
Subject: Re: [sdiy] to banana or not to banana
Date: Wed, 24 Jun 2009 10:16:32 -0700



Yes, Yes and re-Yes !

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