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Granular euro - godsend, or largely pointless?
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Author Granular euro - godsend, or largely pointless?
mrcharles
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 18, 2012 1:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I've been exploring granular synthesis software for almost a year now... in addition to the Reaktor ensembles, here are a couple of applications that I recommend.

In particular, Density ( http://www.densitygs.com/ ). This comes as a standalone application or in Max4Live versions. It is a very powerful application that can morph between different "snapshots" of grain parameters, has built in reverb, compression, and a multi-band filter equalizer.

Audiomulch ( http://www.audiomulch.com/ ) has a number of granular synthesis tools in its library of contraptions.

I'm new to the modular world (trying to figure out just what my first configuration will be...), but I wonder just how analog a modular granular synth could be... it would have to handle an awful lot of data.

When you combine granular audio and video... well, it is out of this world... see:

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tomerbe
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 03, 2012 10:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

here's my attempt to do granular synth on my modular - this is fairly minimal, just two vcos through two vcas. think i'll try to expand on this....

grain envelopes and pitches are generated by PD and sent through the ES-3

https://vimeo.com/37874001
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ianross
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 03, 2012 10:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Dr. Sketch-n-Etch wrote:
So, I'm a bit of a noob with this granular stuff. Is it basically just switching little snippets of sound in and out really quickly? For example, say that you've got two sources of audio (say, Bach's "Mass in B Minor" on Channel 1 and the Sex Pistols' "God Save the Queen" on Channel 2) going into a crossfader (like, say, the Intellijel uFade -- TM 2011, All Rights Reserved) which is being controlled by a pulse wave at 1 to 100 Hz. Now, let's say you modulate the pulse width and frequency of the pulse wave. Would this essentially be granular synthesis?


If that's what granular synthesis is then your new mixer is basically a granular synthesizer. : )
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Dr. Sketch-n-Etch
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 04, 2012 1:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

ianross wrote:
If that's what granular synthesis is then your new mixer is basically a granular synthesizer. : )

Yes, I guess it is! What I'm curious about is if two (or more) recognizable audio sources are sequenced rapidly, are they still recognizable? Does it sound like two audio sources playing at the same time, or something else entirely? I guess we'll be able to do this kind of experiment with the Mutamix.

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radiodread87
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 04, 2012 3:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

could you also do this with the Ufade? as in have two sound sources play into it and switch between them at audio rates?
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earlykooka
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 04, 2012 9:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

ianross wrote:
Dr. Sketch-n-Etch wrote:
So, I'm a bit of a noob with this granular stuff. Is it basically just switching little snippets of sound in and out really quickly? For example, say that you've got two sources of audio (say, Bach's "Mass in B Minor" on Channel 1 and the Sex Pistols' "God Save the Queen" on Channel 2) going into a crossfader (like, say, the Intellijel uFade -- TM 2011, All Rights Reserved) which is being controlled by a pulse wave at 1 to 100 Hz. Now, let's say you modulate the pulse width and frequency of the pulse wave. Would this essentially be granular synthesis?


If that's what granular synthesis is then your new mixer is basically a granular synthesizer. : )


it isn't what Granular Synthesis is at all. Not even close.
To simulate Granular Synthesis in this way you would not necessarily need two soundsources. One is sufficient ( though, depending on the GS program, you can choose to run a number of granular "streams" that are granulating different audiofiles at once : different apps or plugs let you run one, eight or as many as your computer can handle. For the moment lets stick to just one. To simulate GS with a mixer and a record, first you would need to be able to scratch the record with a precision and a speed several orders of magnitude greater than any human, firstly to access the fragments that you want, then to tune them to precise intervals, or randomly, or changing according to waveforms that you are also changing in realtime, then you would need to do this on a vast number of records at once, then be able to change how many records there are. in real time, inhumanly quickly and inhumanly precisely, then you would need to be able to modulate your tens or hundreds of mixer channels with AR times in the milliseconds and AR shapes of incredible precision. Then you would need to do all of this within 'windows' ( from which the grains are drawn randomly, semi-randomly, centre-weighted or whatever) that are changing position and size constantly according to other functions, except when they aren't. Good luck mate ;-). I would advise you,to check out Density GS which is an absolutely fantastic GS app and also exists as an M4L plug, as previously mentioned. It is quite simply phenomenal.
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rowman
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Joined: 18 Jan 2012
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 04, 2012 10:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

radiodread87 wrote:
could you also do this with the Ufade? as in have two sound sources play into it and switch between them at audio rates?


Just trying this with the xfade of the Korgasmatron and it works at a moderate audio rate at least.

Am I right in thinking that the 'modular granular' goal is as simple/difficult as having your vst GS take automation from an input CV?

for example:
'Silent Way CV To OSC translates CV signals (such as those produced by Silent Way CV Input, for example) into OSC messages. These can in turn be used to control all sorts of software and hardware devices.'


edit: woops missed this
phase ghost wrote:
However, cv into the computer (via Silent Way) to control parameters of a granular synth plugin would be cool.


also incorporating something like this http://www.muffwiggler.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=42417
could make your favourite granular softsynth a physical part of your modular, as long as it can recieve OSC code.
But don't patch actual audio or CV into it, you have to use Expert Sleepers /ADDAC for that so I guess it is a little clumsy.
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Dr. Sketch-n-Etch
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 04, 2012 12:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

radiodread87 wrote:
could you also do this with the Ufade? as in have two sound sources play into it and switch between them at audio rates?

Yes. The uFade is perfect for audio-rate switching like this, because the V2164 chip is very fast. If the input signal is attenuated to a lower level (say +/-1V) and then amplified after the crossfader, then it would be even faster.

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Dr. Sketch-n-Etch
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 04, 2012 12:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

earlykooka wrote:
it isn't what Granular Synthesis is at all. Not even close. <...snip...>

OK. Based on what you're saying, GS is only possible in the digital domain. That's cool. I'm not really interested in it, personally, but that's just me.

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Dr. Sketch-n-Etch
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 04, 2012 12:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

rowman wrote:
Just trying this with the xfade of the Korgasmatron and it works at a moderate audio rate at least.

Warning... Technical language to follow.

According to the datasheet, the slew rate of 2164 is 700 uA/us. Typically, the output is converted through a 30k resistor. Hence, a 10V peak-to-peak signal will require 333 uA of current, and this will take 333/700 ~ 0.5 us = 500 ns. The half-period of a 10 kHz signal is 50,000 ns. Hence, the rise time of a perfect square wave fed at 10 kHz would be 1% of the duty cycle. This means that the 2164 should easily handle audio rate switching of signals at synth voltage levels with little distortion.

Of course, there are other chips in the signal chain which are slower, such as the opamps. The TL07X which converts current from the 2164 to voltage has a slew rate of 13 V/us (typically) with minimums as low as 8V/us, which means that it requires about 1000 ns for a 10-V shift, and this would require 2% of the duty cycle for transitions of a perfect square wave at 10 kHz. This is still pretty fast, as general-purpose opamps go.

This analysis also ignores response time (the time it takes for the chip to realize that it's supposed to do something) which can be about 1 us in both cases. This, again, is a pretty small number in terms of audio-rate modulations.

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