MUFF WIGGLER
you'll find what you're looking for, life's like that
 
 FAQ & Terms Of UseFAQ & Terms Of Use   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   RegisterRegister 
 ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 
Information
Please join us at NAMM! MW will be hosting a booth and we would like to invite all manufacturers small and large to join us. We are delighted to support this scene and help provide booth space for anyone who wants to show off their gear and partake in the company of the best group of folks on earth. Please email [email protected] to discuss details. Hope to see you there!



MW Radio

Search for at
MUFF WIGGLER Advanced Search
Granular euro - godsend, or largely pointless?
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4 [all]
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    MUFF WIGGLER Forum Index -> Eurorack Modules
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Granular euro - godsend, or largely pointless?
earlykooka
Wiggling with Experience


Joined: 17 May 2011
Last Visit: 02 Dec 2014

Posts: 286

PostPosted: Sun Mar 04, 2012 9:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

ianross wrote:
Dr. Sketch-n-Etch wrote:
So, I'm a bit of a noob with this granular stuff. Is it basically just switching little snippets of sound in and out really quickly? For example, say that you've got two sources of audio (say, Bach's "Mass in B Minor" on Channel 1 and the Sex Pistols' "God Save the Queen" on Channel 2) going into a crossfader (like, say, the Intellijel uFade -- TM 2011, All Rights Reserved) which is being controlled by a pulse wave at 1 to 100 Hz. Now, let's say you modulate the pulse width and frequency of the pulse wave. Would this essentially be granular synthesis?


If that's what granular synthesis is then your new mixer is basically a granular synthesizer. : )


it isn't what Granular Synthesis is at all. Not even close.
To simulate Granular Synthesis in this way you would not necessarily need two soundsources. One is sufficient ( though, depending on the GS program, you can choose to run a number of granular "streams" that are granulating different audiofiles at once : different apps or plugs let you run one, eight or as many as your computer can handle. For the moment lets stick to just one. To simulate GS with a mixer and a record, first you would need to be able to scratch the record with a precision and a speed several orders of magnitude greater than any human, firstly to access the fragments that you want, then to tune them to precise intervals, or randomly, or changing according to waveforms that you are also changing in realtime, then you would need to do this on a vast number of records at once, then be able to change how many records there are. in real time, inhumanly quickly and inhumanly precisely, then you would need to be able to modulate your tens or hundreds of mixer channels with AR times in the milliseconds and AR shapes of incredible precision. Then you would need to do all of this within 'windows' ( from which the grains are drawn randomly, semi-randomly, centre-weighted or whatever) that are changing position and size constantly according to other functions, except when they aren't. Good luck mate ;-). I would advise you,to check out Density GS which is an absolutely fantastic GS app and also exists as an M4L plug, as previously mentioned. It is quite simply phenomenal.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
rowman
birds are dinosaurs


Joined: 18 Jan 2012
Last Visit: 11 Mar 2014

Posts: 574
Location: Melbourne

PostPosted: Sun Mar 04, 2012 10:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

radiodread87 wrote:
could you also do this with the Ufade? as in have two sound sources play into it and switch between them at audio rates?


Just trying this with the xfade of the Korgasmatron and it works at a moderate audio rate at least.

Am I right in thinking that the 'modular granular' goal is as simple/difficult as having your vst GS take automation from an input CV?

for example:
'Silent Way CV To OSC translates CV signals (such as those produced by Silent Way CV Input, for example) into OSC messages. These can in turn be used to control all sorts of software and hardware devices.'


edit: woops missed this
phase ghost wrote:
However, cv into the computer (via Silent Way) to control parameters of a granular synth plugin would be cool.


also incorporating something like this http://www.muffwiggler.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=42417
could make your favourite granular softsynth a physical part of your modular, as long as it can recieve OSC code.
But don't patch actual audio or CV into it, you have to use Expert Sleepers /ADDAC for that so I guess it is a little clumsy.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Dr. Sketch-n-Etch
Super Deluxe Wiggler


Joined: 21 Jan 2010
Last Visit: 21 Dec 2014

Posts: 4353
Location: Vancouver, BC, Canada

PostPosted: Sun Mar 04, 2012 12:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

radiodread87 wrote:
could you also do this with the Ufade? as in have two sound sources play into it and switch between them at audio rates?

Yes. The uFade is perfect for audio-rate switching like this, because the V2164 chip is very fast. If the input signal is attenuated to a lower level (say +/-1V) and then amplified after the crossfader, then it would be even faster.

_________________
You make my life and times a book of bluesy Saturdays, and I have to choose.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Dr. Sketch-n-Etch
Super Deluxe Wiggler


Joined: 21 Jan 2010
Last Visit: 21 Dec 2014

Posts: 4353
Location: Vancouver, BC, Canada

PostPosted: Sun Mar 04, 2012 12:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

earlykooka wrote:
it isn't what Granular Synthesis is at all. Not even close. <...snip...>

OK. Based on what you're saying, GS is only possible in the digital domain. That's cool. I'm not really interested in it, personally, but that's just me.

_________________
You make my life and times a book of bluesy Saturdays, and I have to choose.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Dr. Sketch-n-Etch
Super Deluxe Wiggler


Joined: 21 Jan 2010
Last Visit: 21 Dec 2014

Posts: 4353
Location: Vancouver, BC, Canada

PostPosted: Sun Mar 04, 2012 12:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

rowman wrote:
Just trying this with the xfade of the Korgasmatron and it works at a moderate audio rate at least.

Warning... Technical language to follow.

According to the datasheet, the slew rate of 2164 is 700 uA/us. Typically, the output is converted through a 30k resistor. Hence, a 10V peak-to-peak signal will require 333 uA of current, and this will take 333/700 ~ 0.5 us = 500 ns. The half-period of a 10 kHz signal is 50,000 ns. Hence, the rise time of a perfect square wave fed at 10 kHz would be 1% of the duty cycle. This means that the 2164 should easily handle audio rate switching of signals at synth voltage levels with little distortion.

Of course, there are other chips in the signal chain which are slower, such as the opamps. The TL07X which converts current from the 2164 to voltage has a slew rate of 13 V/us (typically) with minimums as low as 8V/us, which means that it requires about 1000 ns for a 10-V shift, and this would require 2% of the duty cycle for transitions of a perfect square wave at 10 kHz. This is still pretty fast, as general-purpose opamps go.

This analysis also ignores response time (the time it takes for the chip to realize that it's supposed to do something) which can be about 1 us in both cases. This, again, is a pretty small number in terms of audio-rate modulations.

_________________
You make my life and times a book of bluesy Saturdays, and I have to choose.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Kodama
Super Deluxe Wiggler


Joined: 30 Jan 2010
Last Visit: 21 Dec 2014

Posts: 1891
Location: PDX

PostPosted: Sun Mar 04, 2012 4:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

A112 freeze delay can be fun!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
earlykooka
Wiggling with Experience


Joined: 17 May 2011
Last Visit: 02 Dec 2014

Posts: 286

PostPosted: Sun Mar 04, 2012 5:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Dr. Sketch-n-Etch wrote:
earlykooka wrote:
it isn't what Granular Synthesis is at all. Not even close. <...snip...>

OK. Based on what you're saying, GS is only possible in the digital domain. That's cool. I'm not really interested in it, personally, but that's just me.


I would say that, at least with current technology, it is only practical in the digital domain, yes. But it is certainly theoretically possible in a ( digital under CV control) Eurorack module.
In fact, as I understand it ( i've only ever played around with one in a shop ) Phonogene is capable of things that are a sort of a subset of what granular synthesis is, but on very, very short soundfiles.

Personally, I would be -extremely- excited about a Eurorack module capable of doing real granular synthesis, but it would have to have some fairly serious audio memory and some fairly serious onboard "CPU" too .

Until then the best bet is probably, as others have suggested, CV to midi control of computer based GS. Density ( and many other Max/MSP based programs/plugs) Reaktor granular ensembles, Riverrun, Granulator etc etc .
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
parasitk
I Play Loco Gigs


Joined: 15 May 2008
Last Visit: 15 Jun 2014

Posts: 4848
Location: Lost Angeles

PostPosted: Sun Mar 04, 2012 5:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

earlykooka wrote:
Riverrun


Still my absolute favorite. And it's not overwhelmed with parameters either. I think it would be a great model for granular synthesis in the hardware realm, Euro or otherwise (my needs are otherwise!).

My favorite thing is to drag the sliders in the waveform window to the right, "record enable" and just stream sounds through it in realtime (instead of capturing snapshot loops).


_________________
I, Parasite | Synth fuckery on Soundcloud

dkcg wrote:
But in the end, it felt like I was playing WiiSoundMasterJedi.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message AIM Address
rowman
birds are dinosaurs


Joined: 18 Jan 2012
Last Visit: 11 Mar 2014

Posts: 574
Location: Melbourne

PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2012 4:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Dr. Sketch-n-Etch wrote:
rowman wrote:
Just trying this with the xfade of the Korgasmatron and it works at a moderate audio rate at least.

Warning... Technical language to follow.


Sorry this isn't granular sythesis, but I think it's pretty cool:

So we all love the distorted sines the Korgasmatron can do when you turn up the q-drive, but the post above led me to experiment and discover further wave shaping possibilities. Take output from mix out with crossfade full CW and switch to bipolar, then letting side A oscillate, patch OUT A into XFADE CV and enjoy tone.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
yghartsyrt
permanent entropy


Joined: 04 May 2011
Last Visit: 21 Dec 2014

Posts: 762
Location: Cologne, Germany

PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2012 7:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

two phonogene and a fast crossfade should get you into deep granular territory. For that price you could easily get a CV to midi interface and reaktor or max/MSP
_________________
www.soundcloud.com/nq_nhlsqaik
www.nqmusic.bandcamp.com
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    MUFF WIGGLER Forum Index -> Eurorack Modules All times are GMT - 5 Hours
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4 [all]
Page 4 of 4

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You cannot download files in this forum


Mark all forums read
Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group