Muff's Modules & More

newgreyarea · Posted: Sun Mar 11, 2012 1:36 pm Post subject: I DI you DI?

Do you use DI's?
I've never really understood what they do. Why do I need one, if I need one?
-b

pulse_divider · Posted: Sun Mar 11, 2012 1:43 pm Post subject:

They take an instrument level (like an electric guitar or bass) and convert it to microphone level and impedance.
You don't need them for recording synths.

newgreyarea · Posted: Sun Mar 11, 2012 1:46 pm Post subject:

That's it? I remember when we used to play shows we always went through DI's . I took a stack of Whirlwind DI's, taped them into a block, ran cables 1/4 cables from the audio interface of the the computers to the DI's and just handed the block to the sound guy. I never knew why. Our live engineer said "just do it!" and since I knew dick about that, I did.
-b

pulse_divider · Posted: Sun Mar 11, 2012 1:54 pm Post subject:

That would be to balance and transformer isolate your signal so it doesn't pick up a bunch of garbage running back to the sound board. This would be applicable if you were running your unbalanced signal long distances in the studio as well.
For most people who do home recording and have their recorder inputs near their line-level gear it should be unnecessary.
Some people like the way it can change the tone due to transformer saturation from level/impedance mismatch.... while this can be true in certain circumstances, I think it's pretty overrated as an OMG ITS SO FAT NOW and you get better results and more flexible coloration with a nice compressor or EQ/filter.

Just me · Posted: Sun Mar 11, 2012 3:43 pm Post subject:

I run guitar and bass through a DI to their own dry tracks and then out to the amps. I also mic the amps. Now I have 2 tracks that I can manipulate as needed.
I also use them to convert unbalanced signals to balanced. And since I have active DI's, I can use them to pad the speaker outs of an amp without having to mic it.

Babaluma · Posted: Sun Mar 11, 2012 4:15 pm Post subject:

I always DI every instrument i record, including synths. I have three types available, an Avalon U5, an Avenson Audio Small DI, and the DI built into my Chandler TG2 preamp.

Depending on the DI, they can do a number of things, but the main ones are balancing an unbalanced signal so you can send it further without noise, and changing an instrument signal into a mic signal so you can feed it to a preamp. These are both very similar things. If you just plug a guitar signal directly into a mic preamp, it often won't sound very good due to level and impedance mismatching.

DIs all have a "sound" of their own too, which you may or may not like.

The Avenson Small DI is the cleanest DI I have ever heard. It's cheap enough, small enough and light enough that you could stick it on your guitar strap. It needs to be fed 48v phantom poer from the attached pre for it to work though, so it's an "active" DI.

The Avalon U5 can also sound very clean, but it has the added functions of loads of different inputs and outputs, plus 30dB gain, and a passive EQ network with six switched settings. It's my favourite DI. With the gain, you often don't need to go to a preamp, and it has mic as well as line level balanced outputs. It sounds great and is extremely versatile, although pretty expensive.

The DIs on the Chandler TG2 sound great with synths (really good for "warming up" digital polysynths etc.), but not so great on guitar and bass. No idea why.

As to whether you should/want/need a DI for synths, well, it's all about the sound really, and the sound WILL change with extra stuff in the chain. When I used to have a fully modded 606 and a Mackie desk, the difference between going directly from the 606 to the desk line inputs, and sticking an Avenson DI in between (and then going into the mic input instead), was not small. It was like night and day. Same with a Korg Wavestation synth.

So yes, whilst theoretically you don't need a DI for line level sources, it can make a big, positive difference.

Also, if you want to use a guitar pedal with a mixers send and return, you're going to find that doing "the reamp/DI shuffle", will improve the sound no end.

b3nsf · Posted: Sun Mar 11, 2012 4:25 pm Post subject:

I have two radial JDI's that I use all the time... My Overstayer Instrument Driver (arrives on tuesday) has two DI'd also...

criticalmonkey · Posted: Sun Mar 11, 2012 7:34 pm Post subject:

all this depends on your signal path to your recorder so...

i did some test using a couple of ssl super analogue channel pre/di as a front end compared to my normal mixer front end - yamaha dm1000 - for my modular and a few synths over xmas
all cable runs total less than 3 meters

not sure they made a difference as a strict di- what they did do is make me pay close attention to gain - which is something i can get lazy with with just the mixer

now when i kicked in the eq and compression things changed and when i went thru a ua 710 pre/di the tube sound really made a difference in color
but that's more processing

i also had an apogee symphony i/o on demo - that actually made the most difference in my view - the lows and the lower mid range really picked up a lot out and showed up in mixing - again the ssls and ua made minimal difference -
again compared to my dm1000 which i use as my main converters
and again - paying attention to gain was the thing
that's a $5k ad/da box - not sure i would go there for just synths, acoustic recording i'm ll for it

monitoring was directly to a bryston 4bst to pmc lb1 speakers in a pretty well tuned room

thetwlo · Posted: Sun Mar 11, 2012 10:46 pm Post subject:

always!
modular>DI>AD
or usually modular>DI>mic pre>AD

Usually using the Radial JD6 as the DI.
No mixer.

chamomileshark · Posted: Mon Mar 12, 2012 10:02 am Post subject:

Nope - whether I should or not, I don't know

Bath House · Posted: Mon Mar 12, 2012 10:35 am Post subject:

Always use one to drop synths and drum machines way down to mic level so that I can run them through various pres to add those pres' magic to the singals when boosting the signal back up to line level. Different pres add different pleasing vibes that wouldn't have been there if I had just bypassed that whole process.

richard · Posted: Mon Mar 12, 2012 10:44 am Post subject:

would a pad on the preamp achieve exactly the same thing?

All my preamps have pads

b3nsf · Posted: Mon Mar 12, 2012 11:25 am Post subject:

all DI's also have an EQ curve, some are flatter than others, this affects the sound in a way that some think sounds vintage, Jensen makes some fine transformers, you can find them in high end gear like BAE neve clones...

Richard, I suspect dropping/isolating then having the volume higher on the pre, rather than with pad engaged, would sound different...

newgreyarea · Posted: Mon Mar 12, 2012 12:08 pm Post subject:

Wow!
Thanks for all the responses on this. I've learned more than a few things and might have found a different hole to dump money into!! smile

I was planning on grabbing a Preamp this month. Still deciding which to get as I will be recording synth, vox, and bass guitar so I want something that can work with all these.

Thanks again!
-b

Babaluma · Posted: Mon Mar 12, 2012 4:38 pm Post subject:

if you want something to record vocals, then it HAS to be a mic preamp, but many (like my chandler) also have d.i.s built in so you should be safe!

defenestration · Posted: Tue Mar 13, 2012 11:35 am Post subject:

my perspective on this is that synths are unbalanced so for best integration into a studio, unless you're running an direct-to-unbalanced-interface setup, you're probably going to want to balance those signals before they enter the rest of your chain

a bigger reason I find to use DIs is for isolated grounds, often analog pieces are very susceptible to ground loops

unfortunately good DIs are not cheap and cheap DIs tend to be just awful. midrange DIs are ok/good, depending

Direct boxes aren't the only solution for balancing a synth, you can try out -10dBv to +4dBu boxes like the Ebtech LLS-2 and there are also active converter boxes as well - these devices do not perform a impedance conversion like a traditional 'guitar direct box' and are possibly a more transparent solution than a DI for balancing a synth before it hits your chain

zerosum · Posted: Mon Mar 26, 2012 3:38 am Post subject:

akrylik · Posted: Mon Mar 26, 2012 4:39 am Post subject:

Man. I can't wait until we can just sample everything digitally at 1MHz and 1024 bits of depth and send it around wirelessly.

Babaluma · Posted: Mon Mar 26, 2012 5:18 am Post subject:

No need for that much bandwidth. If you ask me, 24/96 is already capable of greater dynamic range and frequency response than the human auditory system can perceive.

MrBiggs · Posted: Mon Mar 26, 2012 10:30 pm Post subject:

When a preamp has a Hi-Z in, like the API 512c, or a Mixer channel like the first two on the Mackie Onyx mixers, does this do away with the need for a DI? Or is this some other kind of internal thing and not the same?

b3nsf · Posted: Mon Mar 26, 2012 11:15 pm Post subject:

the API has a quality transformer, the Onyx doesn't... so that alone will make a tonal difference... the API will sound more vintage, but it also has a robust discreet opamp, so it will sound louder/cleaner/thicker than cranking the Onyx directly for the same volume...

The real truth is total transparency, which the API is not either, but its sound is well known, consumer mixers AIM to sound transparent, and indeed sound like that but rob you of a tiny amount of sound, null testing proves it, higher quality gear has less tonal robbing of your sound... you can null test equipment and have really transparent sound.. Most mastering equipment is like this.. example: http://www.dangerousmusic.com/liaison.html

transformers of course will not null out perfect because they add bass most of the time... (I've seen the gentle rolls on Carnhill for example)

If you didn't think about it and just record something amazing thru the Onyx and all of this talk is just crap! but if you are a super nerd, and wanna do like the big studios do, blah blah, really into clean sound, go into the API then into the soundcard, and use the mixer for mixing the multiple outs from the computer... thats is called summing, HELLO! It's motherfucking bacon yo

edit: for I'm not being a snob, I'm drunk and happy! and use M-audio!

MrBiggs · Posted: Mon Mar 26, 2012 11:24 pm Post subject:

You misread my question. I wasn't asking if an Onyx mixer pramp was as good as an API 512c. A look at the price tags of each give me that answer, thanks.

I was asking whether their HiZ inputs negate the need for a DI box. Are HiZ inputs essentially the same thing as what a DI does?

b3nsf · Posted: Mon Mar 26, 2012 11:35 pm Post subject:

Hey Mr Biggs,

first off, sorry, I shouldn't have written anything..... hihi

essentially yes, the Hi-z is the DI input on each of those boxes... carry on! Mr. Green

blue_lu · Posted: Tue Mar 27, 2012 7:25 am Post subject:

you can really easily diy a di box. google bo hansen di box.
cost is around 100 euros for a twochannel version with really nice haufe transformers, a little more with lundahl.

Babaluma · Posted: Tue Mar 27, 2012 8:09 am Post subject:

or jensen too! m bop!

hihi

m0rb1d · Posted: Tue Mar 27, 2012 4:46 pm Post subject:

Bath House · Posted: Thu Mar 29, 2012 9:45 am Post subject:

Mostly out of curiosity, I'm about to record a shoot-out comparing several things:

going directly into the hi-Z input on my Mackie 1640i
going through a radial JDI into the mic input on the Mackie 1640i
going directly into the line-in on the Mackie 1640i
going into a Radial JDI, into a Focusrite ISA One's mic input, then into the Mackie 1640i
going directly into the Focusrite ISA One's DI input, then into the Mackie

I'm probably going to just use my Juno 6 to do this, as it's a complex enough sound throughout the frequency range to really highlight any differences.

b3nsf · Posted: Thu Mar 29, 2012 8:43 pm Post subject:

Sounds like an awesome test!!! my only suggestion might be use a familiar piece of audio sample, like led zeppelin "black dog" and play it from your sound card, through the gear and back in... that way we can hear the what the sound card adds as well!!!!