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Harness vs distribution card, pros and cons? |
whitewulfe
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 Posted: Wed Apr 18, 2012 7:28 am Post subject: Harness vs distribution card, pros and cons? |
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So I've been curious about something for a little while here, and that's working out how I'm going to run power through my case. Or, in other words, which of the two main setups to go with (QDH20 in each case, versus STG's Universal Power Distribution Card).
Naturally, the harness is the easiest and most "ready to run" - just plug it in and go at it, but at a cost of $55 per cabinet combined with the fact that at minimum 5-6 of the connectors will never be used, it feels somewhat wasteful (and I absolutely -hate- cabling messes!). Compare that with the STG and even though it offers what appears to be only 12 dotcom connectors, odds are pretty good that each cabinet will have at least two 2MU wide modules in them. The STG is also $15 cheaper per cabinet (before cables anyways). And a quick glance over at mouser, and even with supplies for -50- power cables, the pricing seems to even out between the two after just two cabinets.
I feel like I'm missing something in this comparison (besides the obvious time investment, as well as possibly assuming that wire is fairly inexpensive). I know I'm leaning somewhat more towards STG's setup, especially since it has the possibility to provide for neater wiring... Anyone have any thoughts on the pros/cons of each setup? |
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doctorvague
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| Posted: Wed Apr 18, 2012 7:57 am Post subject: |
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Once it's all in place you never see the harness. Building your own cables you have the slight possibility of mis-wiring one. Unless you check everything really well, if you miswire something you could blow up a module. I kinda liked the convenience of the dotcom, but it is untidy. Making your own you could make a bunch of different lengths and tidy it up. If you have a mixed system (with MOTM for example) then making your own cables starts making even more sense.
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diophantine
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| Posted: Wed Apr 18, 2012 8:06 am Post subject: |
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| What sort of cabinet are you using? |
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megaohm
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| Posted: Wed Apr 18, 2012 10:39 am Post subject: Re: Harness vs distribution card, pros and cons? |
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| whitewulfe wrote: | | Anyone have any thoughts on the pros/cons of each setup? |
I'd say they are more or less equal.
The ideal power hookup would be for the module power header to be directly connected to the posts of the PSU. With no wire! Just soldered directly to the posts, somehow.
Of course, that is impossible so you take that as the ideal and go from there.
The wires from the PSU to the module have an impedance. You want the lowest possible impedance.
The thicker the wire the lower its impedance.
The shorter the wire the lower its impedance.
So you want short, fat wires for the power connection.
Unfortunately, our format uses MTA100 size power headers and 24AWG wire.
That wire is kinda thin and that header is a bit wimpy (too easy to bend and break).
MOTM, Blacet, and Modcan are much better in this regard. 18AWG wire and robust MTA156 size headers.
I don't think DotCom is going to adopt those standards so we make do.
The harness has an advantage over the distro boards because the modules are tied directly to the posts of the PSU (well...via a short 18AWG wire). A distro board connects all power leads at the board itself THEN connects to the PSU. Not as good.
The distro board has an advantage in that the power leads can be shorter.
When using a harness some modules will have a couple feet of excess wire and this increases impedance (not good).
The distro board also has another advantage:
You can use heavier gauge wire for the power leads.
MTA100 connectors can be had for 20AWG wire (I think they are red connectors). These fit exactly the same as the standard 24AWG white headers but you can use thicker wire which is an improvement.
You can't do this with the harness.
Another advantage of the distro board is you can remove the PSU entirely from the cab. If you do this make sure to use heavy wire to connect the board to the PSU. At least 18AWG but go for 14AWG. If you use multiple boards run thick wires for EACH distro board back to the PSU separately.
If I were you I'd go for the distro board method. It's more flexible and, as you mentioned, neater. Use the heaviest gauge wire possible for the connection between the distro board and your PSU. Try to give each board its own connection back to the PSU.
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bwhittington
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| Posted: Wed Apr 18, 2012 11:43 am Post subject: |
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I compromised between the two. I made my own wiring harness by disassembling several Dotcom harnesses, bunching up enough cables for each row, and connecting them to the power supply via 18 awg wire running up the a cable channel on one side of the case. It achieved the tidiness I desired at the low price of the harnesses (purchased used). It sounds like Phil might not approve of that because of the length of some of those cables? Perhaps I should use a heavier gauge wire for the run up the side of the case? I would guess the lengths were relatively short compared to a external power supply's cabling, though.
Here's a photo of it back when I finished wiring it.
If you make your own cables, then the distro board makes a good deal of sense for you. If your costs come out to be equivalent, I would go for the distro boards. For people that need to buy power cables from STG (and Grove might sell them, too?), that would be a really expensive proposition, and they would have to order more each time they expanded since Dotcom format modules don't include power cables like other 5U does. Availability/order fulfillment could be a frustrating issue.
Personally, I can't stand assembling cables with that little MTA hand tool, so making power cables sounds painful. Wiring my own harnesses wasn't much fun, either.
Cheers,
Brian |
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mecanikill
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megaohm
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| Posted: Wed Apr 18, 2012 12:50 pm Post subject: |
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| bwhittington wrote: | | It sounds like Phil might not approve of that because of the length of some of those cables? |
I was talking more of an ideal kinda thing.
I'm sure your setup is working well. If so, then I wouldn't bother to change anything. In fact, I have never heard of anyone having problems in large formats due to their power connection methods. The only times were regarding some euro cases/distro boards. Other problems were related to the PSU being maxed out.
My post was more food for thought for someone starting or redoing their system from scratch. Even the thought of using 20AWG instead of 24AWG is a small issue. If you have 24AWG cable and connectors on hand already I would use them. No need to get the 20AWG in that case because the differences between the two are tiny.
My own system I consider to be a test bed, too. It is VERY far from ideal.
I do a lot of things to it that are bad. I do it because worst case scenario experiments help me make my modules more bullet proof. Some results are humorous, some result in pops and smoke. The vast majority survive and function well no matter what abuse I throw at them (not just my designs but also a lot of DIY stuff and DotCom modules, too).
Last year I was making a bunch of power cables for distro board use. When I got the bundle of cable (25 feet of 24AWG) I hooked up connectors to each end and used it to power a Delta module. It worked fine running off a 25 foot power cord!
I relate all this because I don't want anybody to get too hung up on what is and isn't ideal. Keeping the load your PSU sees much lower than its rated capacity is more important than wire gauge or how the modules are connected.
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megaohm
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Bryan B
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| Posted: Wed Apr 18, 2012 4:43 pm Post subject: |
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I would only add that it costs a lot less to make your own wires and you get to understand your synth a lot better in the process!
Distro Boards made sense for me because I make my own power cables, had multiple cabinets and had both MOTM and MU formats.
If you had 1 cabinet, the harness makes more sense. (AKA, I agree with most or all of the previous contributions in this thread).
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whitewulfe
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| Posted: Wed Apr 18, 2012 5:19 pm Post subject: Re: Harness vs distribution card, pros and cons? |
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| megaohm wrote: | The harness has an advantage over the distro boards because the modules are tied directly to the posts of the PSU (well...via a short 18AWG wire). A distro board connects all power leads at the board itself THEN connects to the PSU. Not as good.
The distro board has an advantage in that the power leads can be shorter.
When using a harness some modules will have a couple feet of excess wire and this increases impedance (not good).
The distro board also has another advantage:
You can use heavier gauge wire for the power leads. MTA100 connectors can be had for 20AWG wire (I think they are red connectors). These fit exactly the same as the standard 24AWG white headers but you can use thicker wire which is an improvement. You can't do this with the harness.
If I were you I'd go for the distro board method. It's more flexible and, as you mentioned, neater. Use the heaviest gauge wire possible for the connection between the distro board and your PSU. Try to give each board its own connection back to the PSU. |
Many thanks for the incredibly detailed and very well written response! I think part of the main reason (besides cable tidyness) is that even a 20-plug harness feels wasteful when, on average, I will only be using about half at any given time.
When you say direct connection to the power supply, does the Q101/Q102/Q103 with inter-cabinet connections count as direct enough, or would you recommend another solution? Main reason why I ask is my current 1amp power supply came pre-wired to work with the regular Q101/102/103 or Q137 setups.
| diophantine wrote: | | What sort of cabinet are you using? |
Knew I forgot to mention something ^_^;;; Currently two of the 14MU low cost but incredibly versatile and well built cabinets by Christopher Winkels, but I will be adding another two cabinets in the very near future (with a more than likely expansion into at least 8 cabinets total). The smaller size with these cabinets is the main reason why I'm debating between harnesses (which, unmolested, are virtually guaranteed to always have at least 6 power jacks unused) and the STG distro board (which, at initial glance, would potentially cause an issue in the fact that I would not be able to fit a cabinet entirely with single width modules (I only see 12 headers, and each cabinet has 14 spaces). |
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Popski
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| Posted: Wed Apr 18, 2012 6:47 pm Post subject: |
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other than STG, does anyone else make a dotcom header distro board?
I think I'm going distro board and roll yer own cables..
starting with dotcom, then expanding to another cab for MOTM if needs be. (I have a few MOTM diy projects languishing in the project box here and have Ken Stone MOTM lil distro boards)
Anyone have a mouser part # for the red MTA100 connectors?
hey Whitewulfe.. if I end up rolling my own cabling I could make you some for cost.
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JohnLRice
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whitewulfe
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| Posted: Wed Apr 18, 2012 8:05 pm Post subject: |
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| Popski wrote: | other than STG, does anyone else make a dotcom header distro board?
I think I'm going distro board and roll yer own cables..
starting with dotcom, then expanding to another cab for MOTM if needs be. (I have a few MOTM diy projects languishing in the project box here and have Ken Stone MOTM lil distro boards)
Anyone have a mouser part # for the red MTA100 connectors?
hey Whitewulfe.. if I end up rolling my own cabling I could make you some for cost. |
I like the sound of that ^_^
Is this where I playfully say "can I pay with coffee?". Course I'd be game for such (and paying with real cash) ^_^ But yeah, I'd definitely be up for such if you go that route 
But yeah, that's kind of the other reason I'm looking at distro boards myself - at some point, I will be bringing some MOTM into the mix (quite possibly a cabinet or two) |
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JohnLRice
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Popski
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| Posted: Wed Apr 18, 2012 10:06 pm Post subject: |
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aha! brilliant!!
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Enginear
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| Posted: Wed Apr 18, 2012 11:40 pm Post subject: |
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Quote from Megaohm :-
"Keeping the load your PSU sees much lower than its rated capacity is more important than wire gauge or how the modules are connected."
Couldn't agree less (or disagree more) with this statement.
It doesn't matter how lightly your PSU is loaded; if you use an inadequate gauge wire that is also too long to a module with a fluctuating load (e.g. lots of blinking LED's) then you are going to have power rails that fluctuate wildly at the module header. (It's kind of like saying you need to buy a 5 liter V8 truck to drive 1 mile to the shops and back at 30 MPH - overkill and a waste of money).
Load your power supply up to it's rated output, but use a properly designed distribution PCB and harness.
In an ideal world, for your module harness, you would use wire of adequate gauge (minimum 20 gauge) and the minimum length necessary to reach the distribution card. Mount the distribution card centrally in your cabinet (that way all module power cables are the shortest they need to be) and run one set of heavy gauge (16 gauge up to about 6 feet long is fine) back to the PSU.
Repeat as necessary until all cabinets are powered or you have reached the stated output of the PSU. Minimum spend. Maximum bang for buck.
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JohnLRice
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| Posted: Thu Apr 19, 2012 12:23 am Post subject: |
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| Enginear wrote: | Quote from Megaohm :-
"Keeping the load your PSU sees much lower than its rated capacity is more important than wire gauge or how the modules are connected."
Couldn't agree less (or disagree more) with this statement.
It doesn't matter how lightly your PSU is loaded; if you use an inadequate gauge wire that is also too long to a module with a fluctuating load (e.g. lots of blinking LED's) then you are going to have power rails that fluctuate wildly at the module header. (It's kind of like saying you need to buy a 5 liter V8 truck to drive 1 mile to the shops and back at 30 MPH - overkill and a waste of money).
Load your power supply up to it's rated output, but use a properly designed distribution PCB and harness.
In an ideal world, for your module harness, you would use wire of adequate gauge (minimum 20 gauge) and the minimum length necessary to reach the distribution card. Mount the distribution card centrally in your cabinet (that way all module power cables are the shortest they need to be) and run one set of heavy gauge (16 gauge up to about 6 feet long is fine) back to the PSU.
Repeat as necessary until all cabinets are powered or you have reached the stated output of the PSU. Minimum spend. Maximum bang for buck. |
I agree with Mr. Megaohm especially if we are talking about linear PSUs. (I don't have experience with switchig ones except with computers) Linear supplys hum and buzz louder as they reach full capacity. It's a wise thing to leave some headroom/reserve and not push them too hard as you'll see stability problems during use and also startup problems since the inrush at power-on will be greater than running requirements and cause some linears to "lock-up". Getting a power supply that is rated 120% or better than the total module requirement is a wise rule to follow. There is also a curve where a linear becomes less efficiant as you near full load, but I can't recall exactly what is was right now. 
I don't think any one is suggesting to connect each module with 20 feet of 30 gauge wire  but pretty much any reasonable wire used will work fine at the short distances and low currents synth modules require. For instance, what is the gauge of the tiny wires typically used in Eurorack modules?  I personally prefer overkill and like how Synth Tech MOTM etc use 18 gauge but the smaller DotCom 24 gauge seems to work fine as the, I suspect, evev smaller Eurorack cables do.
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Enginear
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| Posted: Thu Apr 19, 2012 9:33 am Post subject: |
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| JohnLRice wrote: |
Linear supplys hum and buzz louder as they reach full capacity. It's a wise thing to leave some headroom/reserve and not push them too hard as you'll see stability problems during use and also startup problems since the inrush at power-on will be greater than running requirements and cause some linears to "lock-up". Getting a power supply that is rated 120% or better than the total module requirement is a wise rule to follow. There is also a curve where a linear becomes less efficiant as you near full load, but I can't recall exactly what is was right now. |
Linear supplies which use nasty old C-core transformers may buzz (they shouldn't though) as they are loaded up. But the easy answer to that is to use Toroidal transformers in your power supplies. They are smaller, have tiny external magnetic fields (important if you want to use a reverb tank within the same case) are easy to mount, generally have better efficiency and these days are cheap and easy to get.
I can't think of a reason why a supply would become less efficient at full load. It should be more so - Iron losses remain constant regardless of loading so as a percentage of output they go down with higher load.....resistive loss is proportional to current.... regulation losses in the transformer are also proportional to current.... so no, non-proportional (non-linear) increase with load there either.
I do agree with you on the inrush issue though. It can be a total PITA. And is the only reason to buy an overated supply for your needs. But adjusting the current limit circuits and if you have the know-how, adjusting the timing of the current limit circuit will cure that and allow you to use a smaller supply up to it's rated output.
To use another car analogy - you wouldn't buy a Ferrari and only ever rev to 3000 rpm before changing gear would you? Well I wouldn't anyways |
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megaohm
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| Posted: Fri Apr 20, 2012 11:55 am Post subject: |
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| Enginear wrote: | | JohnLRice wrote: |
Linear supplys hum and buzz louder as they reach full capacity. It's a wise thing to leave some headroom/reserve and not push them too hard as you'll see stability problems during use and also startup problems since the inrush at power-on will be greater than running requirements and cause some linears to "lock-up". Getting a power supply that is rated 120% or better than the total module requirement is a wise rule to follow. There is also a curve where a linear becomes less efficiant as you near full load, but I can't recall exactly what is was right now. |
Linear supplies which use nasty old C-core transformers may buzz (they shouldn't though) as they are loaded up. But the easy answer to that is to use Toroidal transformers in your power supplies. |
That is an easy answer but not an easy solution. Neither is adjusting the timing at start up.
I am guessing the OP doesn't want to build their own supply from scratch.
PowerOne, Lambda, and Condor supplies are cheap on Ebay and easy to hook up. If there are toroidal supplies for deals like those I would love to see a link.
I still suggest not loading your PSU to its rated capacity.
Benefits are:
Less heat which might be a concern if the PSU is in cab.
Longer PSU life. (pure speculation on my part)
Less chance of hum and buzz as JLR pointed out.
No problems with power in-rush at start up.
Module current requirements are not always stated and when they are this should be taken as an average and will change depending on what it is doing and how it is patched. This by itself is enough reason to not load your PSU to max.
I typically chop 25-30% off the PSU max current rating.
I gleaned that advice from others who are a lot smarter than me and have decades more experience. I have practiced that advice for the last 12 years and it has served me well, and in some far less than ideal setups.
Most users want to flip a switch and get down to the serious business of patching and creating sound.
More power to them!
A maxed out PSU could be brought down by the addition of a simple LFO module. It will also lead to more headaches and for what? That extra % of current? It doesn't seem worth it.
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whitewulfe
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| Posted: Fri Apr 20, 2012 8:40 pm Post subject: |
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| megaohm wrote: | That is an easy answer but not an easy solution. Neither is adjusting the timing at start up.
I am guessing the OP doesn't want to build their own supply from scratch.
PowerOne, Lambda, and Condor supplies are cheap on Ebay and easy to hook up. If there are toroidal supplies for deals like those I would love to see a link. |
Correct, I have no interesting in rolling my own power supply at this time, especially given the availability of reliable, ready to roll setups from a few sources. I already have a pre-wired 1amp supply and, will more than likely pick up a QPS3 (or equivalent) at some point (well, okay, -will- be picking such up). I'm sure at some point I might have an interest, but for the time being, like you've stated, I'm primarily interested in making music. |
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wsy
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| Posted: Fri Apr 20, 2012 11:30 pm Post subject: wire gauge? Hahaha! |
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I agree that if you are driving the *entire* output of a QSP1 through a single 24-gauge
wire, it could get dicey, but that's not how the Dotcom power squid is wired.
The PSU output goes through what look like #16 or #18 wire thru the Molex
four-pin connector to the big wirenuts, which then branch out 20 or so
of the #22 or #24 wiresets to each MTA100 connector. So, only
one module (call it 30 mA tops) ever gets fed on a piece of #22 wire.
Personally, I like the flexibility of the power squid. If I were concerned
about looks (i.e. open back that'll be seen on stage) I'd mount my modules
first, then cable the power squid to look pretty, then dress and hold it in
place with spiral-wrap wireloom and those self-adhesive Mayan temples
and black zip-ties.
- Bill
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whitewulfe
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| Posted: Sat Apr 21, 2012 11:35 am Post subject: |
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Hmmm, I've run into one slight snag with the distro board idea (specifically making it slightly more plug and play with the Q137 - aka the whole terminals thing has me momentarily stumped  ), but I'm sure I'll hear back in a few days about such. I blame the money in my pocket threatening to burn a hole if I don't spent it  (Actually, if I'd thought about it, I should've emailed him days ago )
I might still contemplate the harness idea - I just don't want to dangle power cables out the back of one case and then hook them into the second one, even as a "temporary" setup just to get things going. |
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doctorvague
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Popski
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| Posted: Sat Apr 21, 2012 4:49 pm Post subject: |
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| whitewulfe wrote: | Hmmm, I've run into one slight snag with the distro board idea (specifically making it slightly more plug and play with the Q137 - aka the whole terminals thing has me momentarily stumped ), but I'm sure I'll hear back in a few days about such. I blame the money in my pocket threatening to burn a hole if I don't spent it (Actually, if I'd thought about it, I should've emailed him days ago )
I might still contemplate the harness idea - I just don't want to dangle power cables out the back of one case and then hook them into the second one, even as a "temporary" setup just to get things going. |
I would actually suggest getting the power squid harness and using it as is. then when you get some spare cash/time, get an MOTM distroboard and chop up the harness to make cables ala JLR..
If you've already got the Q137 and QPS1, it's the easiest way to get rolling.
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whitewulfe
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| Posted: Sat Apr 21, 2012 5:39 pm Post subject: |
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| Popski wrote: | I would actually suggest getting the power squid harness and using it as is. then when you get some spare cash/time, get an MOTM distroboard and chop up the harness to make cables ala JLR..
If you've already got the Q137 and QPS1, it's the easiest way to get rolling. |
I currently have a more or less equivalent to the QPS1 (a 1amp supply from mecanikill ^_^), and will be putting in an order with Roger over the next few days. It's starting to look more like you're suggesting - start with the 20 harness, and then move onwards to the stg distro cards later on, since it's simple, more or less plug and play, and I really (at this point) just want to get my modular actually making sounds.. |
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