Muff's Modules & More

neilbaldwin · Posted: Sun May 27, 2012 2:20 am Post subject: MIDI Sync Woes...

Despite the desire to ditch my computer/DAW, I still have a necessity for multi-track recording. My computer setup is based around a (newer generation) Mac Mini and Ableton Live (though I have other sequencers).

The problem I have is that all my hardware syncs fine via MIDI clock but as soon as I throw the computer into the mix it all goes horribly wrong.

I was pretty quick to blame Live as it's been officially problematic in the past for sync issues and the latest update didn't help my situation. In testing yesterday though I discovered that pretty much any sequencing software running on my setup has severely flaky timing when synching external devices.

As a test I made a simple sliced beat on my Octatrack, set it to receive external clock and connected MacMini-MIDI-Out -> Octatrack-MIDI-IN. When you hit play on the software sequencers the timing is so bad it sounds drunk. I tried Live, Reaper and Logic and while some were better than others, they were all awful.

The MIDI sync on Elektron boxes is famously rock solid so I know it's not that end of the chain that is causing problem.

I guess that leaves me with the idea that the problem lies in:

a) USB bus
b) my MIDI interface
c) the drivers for my MIDI interface

To try to eliminate A I disconnected all other USB devices. It might be my imagination but it seemed to improve the timing very slightly. Even if that were the case, it's not an option because my audio interface (MOTU Ultralite) is USB

I do have quite a cheap-ish MIDI interface: an EMU 2-in, 2-out (never needed anything bigger) so I'm wondering if a more serious MIDI interface is going to help (something like a MOTU Midi Express 128)? In the back of my mind though I suspect that the problem is more likely driver-based rather than hardware so unless the drivers are good, any interface is going to exhibit the same problems. I should probably add that the Mac Mini is running Lion OS X

I get the feeling that the answer is going to be 'get an Innerclock Systems device' but that's quite a big spend.

Any help or advice would be very appreciated at this point as it's driving me a bit insane very frustrating

budz · Posted: Sun May 27, 2012 4:22 am Post subject:

Sync Lock is the only way as far as I know. Sorry I know that's not what you wanted to hear, but I've never seen a computer send out a good MIDI clock with any MIDI interface.

Ranxerox · Posted: Sun May 27, 2012 4:24 am Post subject:

Have you tried slaving your computer to your Octatrack? It may work better this way, although it's a long shot.

It sounds like you'd be better of with an interface that uses the standard Mac driver MIDI time-stamping, like the MOTU.

neilbaldwin · Posted: Sun May 27, 2012 4:36 am Post subject:

budz · Posted: Sun May 27, 2012 4:39 am Post subject:

You could try Silent Way with ES3 mk2 or ES4 with gate expanders for MIDI clock - it needs to run at 48kHz to work 100% though unless I'm mistaken.

gosh · Posted: Sun May 27, 2012 5:17 am Post subject:

Neil, get an innerclock sync lock, seriously...
If you want to integrate a computer it will be the best purchase you can make. Mine clocks my cirklon, which in turns clocks everything else and it's rock solid.

Shadow84 · Posted: Sun May 27, 2012 7:28 am Post subject:

Without a dedicated clock device, no matter what you do, you will always suffer the synchronization issues related to MIDI clock generated from DAWs. Invest in something like an Innerclock Systems device or SND Acme-4 and the nightmare will be over. The SND Acme-4 is even more expensive but it offers 4 MIDI clock, 2 DIN Sync24 and 2 analog clock outputs that can all run simultaneously. The SND device can also act as a master and that can't be done with Innerclock Systems, this particular feature may be useful in live performance situations. I own the SND Acme-4 and I have no problems with MIDI clock sync anymore. Like budz suggested the Expert Sleepers + Silent Way solution might be appropriate for you as it is offering sample-accurate handling of MIDI notes and it will be cheaper than both of the aforementioned devices.

Shadow

neilbaldwin · Posted: Sun May 27, 2012 7:48 am Post subject:

Thanks.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding something - I'm not sure how any of the Expert Sleeper devices can solve my problems as there doesn't seem to be any MIDI in/out on them?

Shadow84 · Posted: Sun May 27, 2012 7:57 am Post subject:

Shadow84 · Posted: Sun May 27, 2012 7:59 am Post subject:

You can connect these cables to the interface of Expert Sleepers modules to clock external MIDI or DIN Sync devices:

http://www.expert-sleepers.co.uk/index_files/midi-dinsync-adaptor-cabl es-available.php

Shadow

neilbaldwin · Posted: Sun May 27, 2012 8:38 am Post subject:

Thanks for the information thumbs up

So, let's construct a hypothetical situation.

Let's say you had a Cirklon, an Octatrack, a modular synth and a computer with a MOTU Ultralite USB audio interface and you wanted to use the Cirklon as the master device.

You want to do sequencing on the Cirklon but slave the computer, running a DAW, so that you can do multi-track recording (of the modular and Octatrack, plus live overdubs of guitar etc.) into something like Live.

How does the ES4(?) fit into all that? I just don't actually understand it at all. I thought they were just for spitting out CV and such. hmmm.....

hpsounds · Posted: Sun May 27, 2012 9:16 am Post subject:

With InnerClock or Expert Sleepers solutions, your software is still the MIDI masterclock, but this one is sent through some audio outputs of your soundcard (twa analog outputs for InnerClock or one digital output for Expert Sleepers).

Hédi K.

Shadow84 · Posted: Sun May 27, 2012 9:52 am Post subject:

neilbaldwin · Posted: Sun May 27, 2012 10:19 am Post subject:

baltimoroder · Posted: Sun May 27, 2012 11:15 am Post subject: Re: MIDI Sync Woes...

neilbaldwin · Posted: Sun May 27, 2012 11:20 am Post subject: Re: MIDI Sync Woes...

Shadow84 · Posted: Sun May 27, 2012 11:38 am Post subject: Re: MIDI Sync Woes...

jbuonacc · Posted: Sun May 27, 2012 1:58 pm Post subject:

the Innerclock will only work with the DAW as master clock. which is really what you want anyway, because you want everything to line up perfectly with the audio in the DAW.

Babaluma · Posted: Sun May 27, 2012 2:08 pm Post subject:

Innerclock or ES, they are the only options really (unless you can find an old Korg KMS-30)

ryandfl · Posted: Sun May 27, 2012 9:15 pm Post subject:

The Expert Sleepers capabilities are awesome if you want to sequence from a DAW. I hope he is able to create a standalone module, not unlike the Innerclock Systems boxes but putting out full midi signals rather than just the clock. That would open up the market to people who don't want to deal with Eurorack. I imagine he would sell a crap ton.

innerclock · Posted: Sun May 27, 2012 9:37 pm Post subject:

Sync-Gen IILS production A

innerclock · Posted: Sun May 27, 2012 9:39 pm Post subject:

Sync-Gen IILS Production B

innerclock · Posted: Sun May 27, 2012 9:40 pm Post subject:

Sync-Gen IILS Front A

os · Posted: Mon May 28, 2012 6:33 am Post subject:

Looking good, David.

I found this thread a bit late, and I think most questions have been resolved already, but do pop over to the Expert Sleepers forum for more info.

Here are a couple of relevant videos for the casual browser:

And do pick up some of the cables I had made recently, they do make hooking this up a bit cleaner: