Muff's Modules & More

fragilo · Posted: Mon Jun 25, 2012 1:13 am Post subject: MOON 569 gate issues

I have a 569 and Im having some issues using it to trigger envelopes

i would assume the gate outputs on the 569 and 569eg can be used to trigger envelopes in the traditional manner?

its seems that when either the gate bus or expander gate outs are used to trigger envelopes, the envelopes don't fire the way they
do when triggered by other modules (the trigger outs on the 564 being an example)

this behaviour is most noticeable on the attack, and decay/sustain stage of the envelopes (I've tried 3, Modcan, Dotcom and Oakley, they all respond the same)

when the attack is at zero, the envelopes will trigger, but the longer the attack is set, the less it has any effect, instead of having a longer and longer ramp up effect, it just gets weaker and weaker until eventually it disappears.

also, the gate outs on the 569 seem to operate differently when used with an external shift then when used with its on internal clock, changing the lengths of the midi notes converted but the midi-trigger module doesnt seem to make and difference...

Any idea what might be happening here?

Thanks very much

JohnLRice · Posted: Mon Jun 25, 2012 1:53 am Post subject:

Hi fragilo,

I'm not sure if this will be helpful or not but here's a couple quick thoughts for you:

Most ADSR's I've used will go through the attach and decay cycles and come to rest at the sustain level only as long as a a constant signal is applied to the gate input. So, you need to adjust your attach and decay times to work with the speed of your sequencer, or slow down your sequencer to match the attack/decay times you want to use.

When using the internal clock of the 569, the gates output are 50% duty cycle pulses (a square wave). So, while your sequencer is on a particular step, your ADSR with be working its way through the ADS part of the envelope for the first hald of the time spent on that step and then go into R (release) for the last half of the step.

If you use an external clock to shift the 569, the pulse width of the external clock will be used at the gate outputs. If your clock has a variable pulse width you can adjust the width to get the best result from your ADSR.

fragilo · Posted: Mon Jun 25, 2012 2:13 am Post subject:

thanks for the reply.

the problem in finding though is that i cant get a gate output from the 569 to fire an envelope when the envelopes attack is set to slow.

ie, I'm trying to get a 569 gate to fire a slow attack envelope, where i can get a longer ramp up effect. I'm making sure there is enough time in between gates for the attack to ramp up, but it wont ramp, its seems to need the gate held high for it to ramp, however with a a quick pulse trigger from the 564 or other module, the envelopes (mod can, dot com, oakley) will all go through the whole env stage as would most synth envelopes.

why are the envelopes able to fire from a trigger and go through the whole stage as set by the pots, but they don't respond the same way to gates from the 569?! how does the envelopes differentiate between a gate and trigger signal? should not a short gate be the equivalent of a trigger? are they not similar voltage?

im gonna do some more tests to determine if the 569 gates are different from say a roland CV keyboard gate.

darwingrosse · Posted: Mon Jun 25, 2012 10:04 am Post subject:

fragilo · Posted: Mon Jun 25, 2012 10:25 am Post subject:

so what are you supposed to do if you want to say, take a gate out from an individual out on the 569 gate out expander, and use it to trigger an envelope which will have a long ramping up attack?

the gate signal will never be held high long enough to keep the attack ramping beyond that one step in the sequencer...

darwingrosse · Posted: Mon Jun 25, 2012 2:53 pm Post subject:

darwingrosse · Posted: Mon Jun 25, 2012 3:32 pm Post subject:

I just verified that you can use a Q106 as a "gate timing scaler" for a gate output from the 569. I would assume that it would work with the output of the expander gates as well.

Steps:

1. Connect the gate output from the sequencer to the Q106 Hard Sync input.
2. Start the sequencer at your desired rate.
3. Set the Q106 rate to a slow LFO. Verify that your gate output is causing the oscillator to restart its cycle.
4. Connect the PULSE output of the Q106 to whatever you want. I connected it to the external gate input of a S&H (just to verify that it was working).
5. Adjust the frequency know until you are getting single pulses per 569 gate pulse.
6. Adjust the Pulse Width WIDTH knob to extend the "on" time of the produced gate.

It's a little fiddly, but saves you from having to buy any other modules (assuming you have a spare 106 laying around...!).

Hope it helps.

kindredlost · Posted: Mon Jun 25, 2012 7:18 pm Post subject:

Is this a dead spot in the modular world?

Why doesn't anyone make a "GATE EXTENDER" module like Darwin's AC06 sketch? Not like a clock or gate multiplier which would give a quaver out from a semiquaver in. A Gate Extender would be a flipflop with a timer set to whatever the front panel pot is dialed in to. Once it is triggered, it runs it's course. Maybe there is. It sounds familiar.

Thank goodness I have an Ardcore 001. thumbs up

I have several ways to do something close. Like Darwin suggested the Q109 and Q118 are good. The Q961 is alright up to 4 seconds when it has a proper gate level. The CGS Master Divider has quadrature of clock divisions. The Moon 563 has full 100% gate so a few steps can be linked to create a long gate. The same with the Q963 Trigger Bus.

Maybe the Moon 511AC could be used to extend the gate by setting each segment to a longer and longer delay? I don't own one so I can't say. You would still have to sum the gates with a mixer.

How about the Moon 564? it looks promising.

bwhittington · Posted: Mon Jun 25, 2012 7:46 pm Post subject:

Why Adapter · Posted: Mon Jun 25, 2012 8:07 pm Post subject:

Maybe the Tellun TLN-866 Gate Processor could be used for this?

http://www.tellun.com/motm/diy/tln866/TLN-866.html

VinceL · Posted: Mon Jun 25, 2012 8:56 pm Post subject:

JohnLRice · Posted: Mon Jun 25, 2012 9:05 pm Post subject:

fragilo, what Modcan envelope do you have? Both the 04B and 60B modules have HOLD parameters. Maybe one of those will work for you?

04B
The HOLD feature controls the incoming Gate signal and over-rides the length of the Gate. Short gates can be increased and long gates can be reduced to blips.
The GATE HOLD provides an added dimension for controlling the envelopes response to an incoming pulse train from sequencer or keyboard.

Stage Min Dur. Max Dur.
DelayHold 0 sec 29.7 sec.
Attack 1.7ms 19.24 sec
Decay 1.4ms 16.97 sec.
Sustain 0 Volts 5 volts
Release 1.2ms 33.46 sec.

60B
The HOLD stage adds "punch" to the attack portion of the envelope, simulating the effect that compression has on peak transients. This is the purported "Holy Grail" for getting that Moog envelope shape.
HOLD coupled with the sub-millisecond attacks, gives the envelope
more impact than a standard ADSR can produce.

Envelope stage duration:
Delay = 0 to 10seconds
Attack = 0.5mS to 51seconds
Hold= 250uS to 1.5 seconds
Decay = 0.5mS to 51seconds
Sustain 0-5V
Release = 0.5mS to 51seconds

fragilo · Posted: Tue Jun 26, 2012 1:14 am Post subject:

thanks for all the suggestions guys, i have figured out that i was just crazy and everything was working pretty much as it should.

I've also figure out i can create the extended gates with a midi-cv module, just use another midi track to send held notes for the desired duration and use that to gate the envelopes.

but yeah, a multi channel gate extender module would be very handy

and does anyone know of an AD or AR env that would run its whole course from a pulse a la buchla?

JohnLRice · Posted: Tue Jun 26, 2012 1:32 am Post subject:

Synthbuilder · Posted: Tue Jun 26, 2012 2:58 am Post subject:

ericD13 · Posted: Tue Jun 26, 2012 3:05 am Post subject:

There's also the Curetronic's Dual Delay-Gate.
http://www.bild-schall.com/product/curetronic-dual-gate-delay

mattias · Posted: Tue Jun 26, 2012 10:19 am Post subject:

JohnLRice · Posted: Wed Jun 27, 2012 12:32 am Post subject:

Hi,

I should be doing other stuff tonight but, I couldn't resist trying a few things (once I get past this Friday's gig I can start trying to get caught up on stuff!)

The "trigger" output of the 564 doesn't really seem to be a trigger at all and appears to be a gate held high as long as the stage is active. That's why the OP's EG's were working as he wanted. I didn't try using trigger ins on the 564, just a shift in and "trigger" outs.

This is indicated as such on the Moon documentation of course.

I need to go to bed . . . .

fragilo · Posted: Sat Jul 21, 2012 4:26 am Post subject:

Im happy to wrap this thread up with the some good news

Gert sent me a new 569 + EG setup and all the issues I was having with the originals vanished into thing air.

The quatntizers are all in tune, it resets on every row, and most importantly, the EG and row outs trigger/shift/gate everything including itself.

Guess there is always some growing, pains. Im just happy to see Moon really come though for its customers. I feel really good with the module now, there are happily doing their thing just as advertised.

Looking forward to getting fixed up 551 and 553 now...

JohnLRice · Posted: Tue Jul 24, 2012 1:04 am Post subject:

chrix

Hi!

I'm having some problems with both a 568 and a 569 - when I reset it externally, the gate on the first step of the sequencers is not sent out on the gate out 1 of the 569 (but it does get sent out of the 569EG gate expander... i soled the problem on the 568 by triggering the step after the reset was supposed to take place...

maybe these modules aren't functioning properly?!?!

thanks for any feedback
/Chris