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WIGGLING 'LITE' IN GUEST MODE

moon modular - despair
MUFF WIGGLER Forum Index -> 5U Format Modules Goto page 1, 2, 3  Next [all]
Author moon modular - despair
Nelson Baboon
I have multiple issues. This is so depressing. I'm editing the thread now to cover them all. I haven't even tried all of the modules yet. The first module I ran into problems with is the cv to midi module (522). the midi pitch # is really drifting on this. Thus far it's close to unusable....not sure what to look for again. I mean, if you're sending it a simple cv pattern of 3 notes, it should just repeat them over and over. The cv isn't drifting - it's just the midi notes that are drifting, so the problem seems to be in the 522.

Next one is the quantizer + 2 expansions for it. The quantizer works by itself, and with 1 expansion module at a time. The way it's supposed to work is if 2 are connected, the first 2 sections of the quantizer will work with one, and the second 2 will work with the other. I can use either expansion module by itself, and I can swap cables, but the quantizer won't respond to both at a time.

The other one is more subtle. The input expansion to the 569 is pretty cool - it allows you, with an incoming gate/trigger to any step, to set the sequence to that step. You can do cool stuff with it, like setting the sequence to a step beyond its reset point, etc. This worked fine when I used the 4x8 mode. When I switch to 2x16, I get some weirdness. I haven't tested every possibility, and haven't been keeping track systematically, but it goes something like this - if I try to set the step to a point beyond the reset point, and that step is in row 2 (9-16), the led will light, but the cv will continue as if no gate/trigger has been received.

Is this all a coincidence that this is all happening? I've checked/rechecked connections, and everything seems absolutely solid. This is so depressing.
drewtoothpaste
If you're having problems with multiple modules it might be a power-supply issue - are you running under the current rating of your PS? (If you have a voltmeter maybe try checking the power rail voltages when it's under full load.)
Nelson Baboon
Simply no idea about the power.
LesMoMo
Just a couple of brief remarks due to the limited user interface I'm using at present (i.e. during NAMM):

552 - can you describe the type of "drift" ?
The quantizer of the 552 has a certain dead band - but MIDI note may toggle between two adjacent values if the value of the supplied voltage is near to this dead band.

565e - it does have a jumper (on the PCB, i.e. you should spot it once looking at the back of the module) that must be present at expander 1 but must be removed at expander 2. I do guess that is still there ?

569es and 16-step mode - I have to check once I'm back in Berlin (Monday) and have full access to the required reference setup.

Hope to have given some helpfull information
Gert
Nelson Baboon
Hi - thanks for answering. I didn't email directly, since I figured you were at NAMM. Of course, what makes this doubly frustrating is that I love it so much...as far as the exact drift, I pasted below the note values. It's a little cluttered, but I think you can get the idea better than a vague description of the 'type' of drift. This should have been a 3 note pattern - there was no modulation, and the cv only to an oscillator produced just that.

As far as the jumper - I didn't know anything about that. I'll check in a bit. Given that I knew nothing about it, that makes sense and I"m hopeful. I'll post the results later on. Thanks again.

12:41:24.720 From Micro Lite mn Port 4 Note Off 1 79 0
12:41:24.800 From Micro Lite mn Port 4 Note On 1 82 127
12:41:24.864 From Micro Lite mn Port 4 Note Off 1 82 0
12:41:24.945 From Micro Lite mn Port 4 Note On 1 75 127
12:41:25.009 From Micro Lite mn Port 4 Note Off 1 75 0
12:41:25.092 From Micro Lite mn Port 4 Note On 1 82 127
12:41:25.156 From Micro Lite mn Port 4 Note Off 1 82 0
12:41:25.237 From Micro Lite mn Port 4 Note On 1 81 127
12:41:25.300 From Micro Lite mn Port 4 Note Off 1 81 0
12:41:25.383 From Micro Lite mn Port 4 Note On 1 75 127
12:41:25.446 From Micro Lite mn Port 4 Note Off 1 75 0
12:41:25.528 From Micro Lite mn Port 4 Note On 1 79 127
12:41:25.591 From Micro Lite mn Port 4 Note Off 1 79 0
12:41:25.673 From Micro Lite mn Port 4 Note On 1 82 127
12:41:25.737 From Micro Lite mn Port 4 Note Off 1 82 0
12:41:25.819 From Micro Lite mn Port 4 Note On 1 75 127
12:41:25.884 From Micro Lite mn Port 4 Note Off 1 75 0
12:41:25.965 From Micro Lite mn Port 4 Note On 1 79 127
12:41:26.028 From Micro Lite mn Port 4 Note Off 1 79 0
12:41:26.109 From Micro Lite mn Port 4 Note On 1 82 127
12:41:26.173 From Micro Lite mn Port 4 Note Off 1 82 0
12:41:26.256 From Micro Lite mn Port 4 Note On 1 77 127
12:41:26.320 From Micro Lite mn Port 4 Note Off 1 77 0
12:41:26.401 From Micro Lite mn Port 4 Note On 1 80 127
12:41:26.464 From Micro Lite mn Port 4 Note Off 1 80 0
12:41:26.548 From Micro Lite mn Port 4 Note On 1 82 127
12:41:26.610 From Micro Lite mn Port 4 Note Off 1 82 0
12:41:26.692 From Micro Lite mn Port 4 Note On 1 75 127
12:41:26.756 From Micro Lite mn Port 4 Note Off 1 75 0
12:41:26.837 From Micro Lite mn Port 4 Note On 1 79 127
12:41:26.901 From Micro Lite mn Port 4 Note Off 1 79 0

LesMoMo wrote:
Just a couple of brief remarks due to the limited user interface I'm using at present (i.e. during NAMM):

552 - can you describe the type of "drift" ?
The quantizer of the 552 has a certain dead band - but MIDI note may toggle between two adjacent values if the value of the supplied voltage is near to this dead band.

565e - it does have a jumper (on the PCB, i.e. you should spot it once looking at the back of the module) that must be present at expander 1 but must be removed at expander 2. I do guess that is still there ?

569es and 16-step mode - I have to check once I'm back in Berlin (Monday) and have full access to the required reference setup.

Hope to have given some helpfull information
Gert
suitandtieguy
in case Gert comes back to the thread, these modules are running off a Power One HBAA-40W-A supply which delivers .8 amp at 15V bipolar.
Nelson Baboon
Thanks Gert - I just removed the jumper to one of the quantizer expanders, and now the quantizer seems to be reacting to both of them. Beautiful.

I don't see anything about the jumpers in the descriptions online.
LesMoMo
Considering the behavior of the 552 :

The sequence is generated by the 569 or an "external" sequencer ?

Looking at the data of the MIDI-monitor - can you supply a "steady" voltage (plus a sequence of gates, of course ) ? Does it still exhibit a similar drift ?

Gert

P.S.: I do guess that the power supply isn't the issue.
Which modules do you run off that suppy?
Nelson Baboon
Yes - I was using the 569 into the 552.

The cv seemed totally stable when run into an oscillator. I'll try a steady voltage, though as I recall that works. The thing is though that I messed with the pitches a lot, and it always drifted. I couldn't get a stable output. But I'll try again, and post in a little bit.

Which modules?
569, 569es, 569eg, 563, 563e, 2 x 594, 564, 565, 2 x 565e, 526, 552, 591, 525, 553

LesMoMo wrote:
Considering the behavior of the 552 :

The sequence is generated by the 569 or an "external" sequencer ?

Looking at the data of the MIDI-monitor - can you supply a "steady" voltage (plus a sequence of gates, of course ) ? Does it still exhibit a similar drift ?

Gert

P.S.: I do guess that the power supply isn't the issue.
Which modules do you run off that suppy?
Nelson Baboon
ok - it looks like at the extremes - knobs all the way clockwise or counterclockwise, the pitch remains stable.

But somewhere in the middle, it drifts. I set the reset on step 2, so that there was a 1 step sequence, and there is no transpose input. I get the following. As you can see, it will remain stable for a bit, and then waver. I have yet been able to get it to remain steady.
21:50:38.908 From Micro Lite mn Port 4 Note On 1 69 127
21:50:38.929 From Micro Lite mn Port 4 Note Off 1 69 0
21:50:39.552 From Micro Lite mn Port 4 Note On 1 69 127
21:50:39.572 From Micro Lite mn Port 4 Note Off 1 69 0
21:50:40.195 From Micro Lite mn Port 4 Note On 1 69 127
21:50:40.216 From Micro Lite mn Port 4 Note Off 1 69 0
21:50:40.841 From Micro Lite mn Port 4 Note On 1 69 127
21:50:40.859 From Micro Lite mn Port 4 Note Off 1 69 0
21:50:41.484 From Micro Lite mn Port 4 Note On 1 69 127
21:50:41.503 From Micro Lite mn Port 4 Note Off 1 69 0
21:50:42.128 From Micro Lite mn Port 4 Note On 1 69 127
21:50:42.147 From Micro Lite mn Port 4 Note Off 1 69 0
21:50:42.771 From Micro Lite mn Port 4 Note On 1 69 127
21:50:42.791 From Micro Lite mn Port 4 Note Off 1 69 0
21:50:43.415 From Micro Lite mn Port 4 Note On 1 72 127
21:50:43.435 From Micro Lite mn Port 4 Note Off 1 72 0
21:50:44.058 From Micro Lite mn Port 4 Note On 1 70 127
suitandtieguy
are you using the full 10 volt range of the rows on the 569 to drive the CV-MIDI device?
Nelson Baboon
suitandtieguy wrote:
are you using the full 10 volt range of the rows on the 569 to drive the CV-MIDI device?


I've tried all 3 settings, and it doesn't make a difference.

Plus - it makes more sense to use the quantizer on the 10v range, since the other ranges are already quantized by the 569...
suitandtieguy
ok so even when it's getting a quantised signal it's drifting?
Nelson Baboon
suitandtieguy wrote:
ok so even when it's getting a quantised signal it's drifting?


good point. But yeah - I was thinking about it this way - that if it's really difficult to get it not to drift, then there is a problem. I can see that it would happen if the pitch was right on the borderline, but it shouldn't happen most of the time. I don't have that problem with the analogue systems cv to midi, and I didn't with the xpander.
doctorvague
EDIT: This seemed on topic when I posted it but I could delete it and start a new thread if it's too much of a highjack

Droolmaster - very sorry to hear about your problems. I hope you can work them out. My story is below. To say I'm disappointed is a bit of an understatement. I've been waiting literally years for someone to build a random access quantizer...


I sent a note to Noisebug on Thursday that I want to return my Quantizer + 1 expander I received on Wednesday. They have not replied yet. Not only is this module noticeably out of tune (about 25-30 cents by the time you get to oct 5 and 6 - more details below) but it's also quit working about 10 times or so. It just quits working altogether at random times. When it was working it still seemed glitchy to me but it never worked long enough to draw a conclusion on that.
I have a brand new 3 amp PSU in my 66 space system with everything else working perfectly.

I know some of you will disagree with this, but in this instance at these prices with something basically DOA out of the box I'd rather cut my losses- and lose 15% restocking fee than keep something that obviously has problems. Same as I'd do with a car that broke down on the way home from the dealer.
-----------------------------------------------
My correspondence:

Hello
I just received a 565 + expander from Noisebug.
It is not in tune.
When I tune the lowest octave perfectly, Octave 5 is off by about 25-30 cents tuning.
This oscillator (Synthesizers.com) was recently calibrated at the factory.

Here are the voltages going in and coming out of the Quantizer
with nothing but a meter attached
top channel - set for octaves (C notes) only
no other load on the output - just checking voltages with a DMM

IN - OUT
0V .1V
1V 1.11V
2V 2.13V
3V 3.14V
4V 4.16V
5V 5.17V
6V 6.19V
7V 7.21V

Is there a way to scale (calibrate) the 565?
It's not in tune enough to use right now.
I've built and scaled oscillators before.
I'd much rather calibrate it myself than ship it somewhere.
Thanks
Phil Brown
doctorvague
--------------------------------------------
Hi Phil.

I am still waiting of an answer from our "moonmaster" Gert Jalass. He is at the NAMM 2010.
I think its the power supply. Maybe the 565 is calibrated with 12V and you use 15V. (Maybe)
We have to get the answer from Gert. (coming soon)

Regards
Peter
--------------------------------------------------
Hi Peter
Thanks for your reply.
The quantizer has shut down on me about 10 times now.
It works and then just stops working for no apparent reason.
I am on a standard dotcom system with a 3 amp power supply.
Everything else works perfectly in my system.
I have contacted Noisebug to return this for a refund.
Anything like this that is broken on arrival I do not want to own.
Regards
Phil
-------------------------------------------------

Yes, return to NB.

Nice weekend.

Best regards
Peter
--------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------

As far as Noisebug not getting back with me - are they completely shut down during NAMM? If so that should be clearly stated on their site. If not, they should at least send a courtesy reply IMO. They had 2.5 business days to send an RMA and I could have already shipped this back. Not the end of the world, but not good either. Again just 'IMO'.

Hope you get your issues worked out droolmaster.

Phil
LesMoMo
Before I am packing up for returning back to Berlin:

Good that you did validate the 569 outs with something "external". This does allow to look at the 552 "alone".

I am a bit puzzled about "that" behavior and like to single out any other potential side effect - can you remove all modules - except the 569, 569es, 569eg and 552) from the rack and run your test sequences again ?

Don't expect any reply the coming quite a few hours, i.e. before myself being back at Berlin on Monday in the early afternoon (LA time).

Gert
Nelson Baboon
LesMoMo wrote:
Before I am packing up for returning back to Berlin:

Good that you did validate the 569 outs with something "external". This does allow to look at the 552 "alone".

I am a bit puzzled about "that" behavior and like to single out any other potential side effect - can you remove all modules - except the 569, 569es, 569eg and 552) from the rack and run your test sequences again ?

Don't expect any reply the coming quite a few hours, i.e. before myself being back at Berlin on Monday in the early afternoon (LA time).

Gert


I can remove all of the other modules. I'll get to that a bit later.
Nelson Baboon
I think that noisebug and ah are both pretty much shut down for namm. There is a 'please join us at NAMM' note on noisebug's site - I don't know - maybe they just have a minimal staff, and Chuck hasn't gotten to your email yet since he's at NAMM, or whatever.

My quantizer has not been shutting down. I haven't tested the tracking. I tend to gravitate towards rather cacophonous sounds, and I just haven't listened for this.



doctorvague wrote:
EDIT: This seemed on topic when I posted it but I could delete it and start a new thread if it's too much of a highjack

Droolmaster - very sorry to hear about your problems. I hope you can work them out. My story is below. To say I'm disappointed is a bit of an understatement. I've been waiting literally years for someone to build a random access quantizer...


I sent a note to Noisebug on Thursday that I want to return my Quantizer + 1 expander I received on Wednesday. They have not replied yet. Not only is this module noticeably out of tune (about 25-30 cents by the time you get to oct 5 and 6 - more details below) but it's also quit working about 10 times or so. It just quits working altogether at random times. When it was working it still seemed glitchy to me but it never worked long enough to draw a conclusion on that.
I have a brand new 3 amp PSU in my 66 space system with everything else working perfectly.

I know some of you will disagree with this, but in this instance at these prices with something basically DOA out of the box I'd rather cut my losses- and lose 15% restocking fee than keep something that obviously has problems. Same as I'd do with a car that broke down on the way home from the dealer.
-----------------------------------------------
My correspondence:

Hello
I just received a 565 + expander from Noisebug.
It is not in tune.
When I tune the lowest octave perfectly, Octave 5 is off by about 25-30 cents tuning.
This oscillator (Synthesizers.com) was recently calibrated at the factory.

Here are the voltages going in and coming out of the Quantizer
with nothing but a meter attached
top channel - set for octaves (C notes) only
no other load on the output - just checking voltages with a DMM

IN - OUT
0V .1V
1V 1.11V
2V 2.13V
3V 3.14V
4V 4.16V
5V 5.17V
6V 6.19V
7V 7.21V

Is there a way to scale (calibrate) the 565?
It's not in tune enough to use right now.
I've built and scaled oscillators before.
I'd much rather calibrate it myself than ship it somewhere.
Thanks
Phil Brown
doctorvague
--------------------------------------------
Hi Phil.

I am still waiting of an answer from our "moonmaster" Gert Jalass. He is at the NAMM 2010.
I think its the power supply. Maybe the 565 is calibrated with 12V and you use 15V. (Maybe)
We have to get the answer from Gert. (coming soon)

Regards
Peter
--------------------------------------------------
Hi Peter
Thanks for your reply.
The quantizer has shut down on me about 10 times now.
It works and then just stops working for no apparent reason.
I am on a standard dotcom system with a 3 amp power supply.
Everything else works perfectly in my system.
I have contacted Noisebug to return this for a refund.
Anything like this that is broken on arrival I do not want to own.
Regards
Phil
-------------------------------------------------

Yes, return to NB.

Nice weekend.

Best regards
Peter
--------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------

As far as Noisebug not getting back with me - are they completely shut down during NAMM? If so that should be clearly stated on their site. If not, they should at least send a courtesy reply IMO. They had 2.5 business days to send an RMA and I could have already shipped this back. Not the end of the world, but not good either. Again just 'IMO'.

Hope you get your issues worked out droolmaster.

Phil
SynthBaron
doctorvague wrote:
To say I'm disappointed is a bit of an understatement. I've been waiting literally years for someone to build a random access quantizer...


Well, mine gets here Monday. If it does the same kind of shit, it's going right back too.

These modules should NOT be being calibrated for 12v. What the hell is up with that?
doctorvague
SynthBaron wrote:
doctorvague wrote:
To say I'm disappointed is a bit of an understatement. I've been waiting literally years for someone to build a random access quantizer...


Well, mine gets here Monday. If it does the same kind of shit, it's going right back too.


I sincerely hope yours and everyone else's works perfectly and I just got a bad one. I would definitely make sure it's in tune enough for your musical purposes when you get it. Also I can't say absolutely, but it seemed like when I sped up what I was feeding it (like 32nd notes at 154BPM) it would crap out. But it also stopped working at other completely random times, so who knows?

If they are building (or calibrating) some of these to operate at 12V instead of 15V, as their email to me suggested, then the modules and boxes should be clearly marked in some way so there's NO chance of them getting mixed up. If that's really what happened here, and I got a 12V one, that's a pretty lame mistake.
bwhittington
doctorvague wrote:
EDIT: This seemed on topic when I posted it but I could delete it and start a new thread if it's too much of a highjack


Boy, not a hijack at all. It fits right into the topic of "Moon Modular - Despair." I'm really sorry to hear that. I have to say that if you actually get hit with a restocking fee in this case, please let me know. I simply wouldn't buy from a retailer that did not stand behind a product enough to issue a refund for a non-working module. If I got charged a restocking fee for that, my next call would be to my bank to file a dispute.

I'm surprised and somewhat saddened to hear of all the problems with Moon modules (not forgetting John's issues). Moon seems to have great customer service, but if the answer for the less technical among us is to send a product back to Berlin when it fails, you'd certainly like to see a bit more effort on the QC end.

I hope all works out well for both of you guys.

Cheers,
Brian
Nelson Baboon
As far as testing the cv to midi by disconnecting all but the 569 and expansions, and the cv to midi modules - I assume that it's fine simply to disconnect the power from the module end? There would be absolutely no reason to do anything else for this test, right?
Nelson Baboon
Just to be as precise as I can - I don't think it's a hijack per se, but my subject line was really only meant to highlight my own mental state after waiting for the case, getting it all set up, trading the Serge, and then not being able to get 3 modules working totally the way I expected. But part of the despair is recognition of my own incompetence with hardware, etc, and fearing that I had fucked up somehow, or that the problem would be hard to diagnose, etc....

and also to get help, especially from anyone else who might already have these modules, since I knew that Gert was probably at NAMM.
Nelson Baboon
I unplugged the power cable from all of the modules except the sequencer + expansions, and the cv to midi. I still get drifting values, as seen below. This time I also as a comparison, just in case there is somehow something that I'm overlooking, went from the 1 step sequence on the 569 out to the analogue systems cv to midi converter. That one exhibits no such drifting.
15:18:08.923 From Micro Lite mn Port 4 Note Off 1 50 0
15:18:09.153 From Micro Lite mn Port 4 Note On 1 50 127
15:18:09.341 From Micro Lite mn Port 4 Note Off 1 50 0
15:18:09.570 From Micro Lite mn Port 4 Note On 1 50 127
15:18:09.760 From Micro Lite mn Port 4 Note Off 1 50 0
15:18:09.987 From Micro Lite mn Port 4 Note On 1 50 127
15:18:10.176 From Micro Lite mn Port 4 Note Off 1 50 0
15:18:10.404 From Micro Lite mn Port 4 Note On 1 50 127
15:18:10.593 From Micro Lite mn Port 4 Note Off 1 50 0
15:18:10.823 From Micro Lite mn Port 4 Note On 1 48 127
15:18:11.011 From Micro Lite mn Port 4 Note Off 1 48 0
15:18:11.241 From Micro Lite mn Port 4 Note On 1 50 127
15:18:11.429 From Micro Lite mn Port 4 Note Off 1 50 0
15:18:11.658 From Micro Lite mn Port 4 Note On 1 50 127
15:18:11.847 From Micro Lite mn Port 4 Note Off 1 50 0
15:18:12.075 From Micro Lite mn Port 4 Note On 1 52 127
15:18:12.264 From Micro Lite mn Port 4 Note Off 1 52 0
15:18:12.494 From Micro Lite mn Port 4 Note On 1 50 127
15:18:12.681 From Micro Lite mn Port 4 Note Off 1 50 0
SynthBaron
I don't really understand why a quantizer needs trimmers to begin with. Should all be done in software, no? A voltage reference would solve any problems between 12 and 15 volt differences too.
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