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TM3030 -> 2SC1583 & 2SC2291
MUFF WIGGLER Forum Index -> Oakley Sound Systems Goto page 1, 2  Next [all]
Author TM3030 -> 2SC1583 & 2SC2291
juice721
Hello!
Is it possible to replace the SSM2210 of the exp convertor with a 2SC1583 and the THAT330P with a 2SC1583 & a 2SC2291?

How could I do this, please?
Synthbuilder
juice721 wrote:
Is it possible to replace the SSM2210 of the exp convertor with a 2SC1583 and the THAT330P with a 2SC1583 & a 2SC2291?


It is unlikely you could get the short leads of the Japanese devices to fit into the DIL outlines that are on the PCB. You could possibly use some extra wire to connect the leads but it'll be tricky.

I have tried these devices in my original prototypes and to my ears, at least, they didn't make any sonic difference.
juice721
As I understood in the Builder's Guide that old pieces could use instead of new ones, I've already ordered them! So it will be a pity to not use them!

So, could you please help me to wire it properly?
Synthbuilder
juice721 wrote:
As I understood in the Builder's Guide that old pieces could use instead of new ones, I've already ordered them! So it will be a pity to not use them!


Only in three specific locations can you use the original parts. Unfortunately, neither the expo and ladder are available for such substitutions.

Download the datasheets for the two devices you have from the net. You'll see the pinouts to the devices. Match them up with the ones on the circuit diagram.

I've not tried doing it with the TM3030 board - but I can't imagine its going to be that easy to solder in the older devices. My advice would be to use the SSM2210 and the THAT300 devices.
Synthbuilder
I have just tried to find the datasheets on the two devices but I can't find the one you need for the 2SC2291. Without this we are a bit stuck - you need to know the pin out of that device so you can wire it up to the board.

Try and see if you can find it and we'll work out how to get it into the board.

I also re checked the TM3030 User Guide about using the original parts. I think it is clear enough that you can't use the Japanese parts in the ladder and expo - but I have now, hopefully, made it even clearer that this is the case. I'm sorry you got confused.

Tony
magman
A small suggestion.

Use sockets for the the SSM2210 and THAT330P (If you're not already doing this), then fit the alternate components to headers, like these:

http://www.rapidonline.com/Cables-Connectors/Connectors-Multipole/DIL- Sockets/Slotted-0.3-inch-DIL-header/75739

Then you have the option to use the chips as designed if things don't work out with the 2SC parts. It may even give you a bit more lead length for fitting the 2SC parts.

Regards

Magman
juice721
Quote:
I think it is clear enough that you can't use the Japanese parts in the ladder and expo


Sorry, I'm a bit french! Mr. Green

I will try to get datasheet for 2SC2291!

Thank you very much for your help and support![/quote]
juice721
I've just asked Senso for datasheet!

Maybe he will be able to help us!
juice721
An other thing...
I've used some 2sc536F instead of BC 182L (Q3) and 2sa733P instead of BC 182L (Q4-Q5)!

Do you think it's ok?
Synthbuilder
juice721 wrote:
I've used some 2sc536F instead of BC 182L (Q3) and 2sa733P instead of BC 182L (Q4-Q5)!

Do you think it's ok?


Not tried these myself but it should work. But you've got the numbers mixed up. The BC212L (Q3) can sub for the 2SC733 and the BC182L (Q4, 5) can sub for the 2SC536.

Tony
juice721
Quote:
The BC212L (Q3) can sub for the 2SC733 and the BC182L (Q4, 5) can sub for the 2SC536.

That's what I've done!

Still looking for 2SC2291 datasheet!.. we're not worthy

Thank you Magman for your advice!
juice721
an other thing, i've found this on a xOx forum. Can it help us?
http://www.nteinc.com/specs/10to99/pdf/nte44_45.pdf
It is said that the NTE44 is a direct replacement for the 2sc2291
juice721
If I've well understood, and by simplifying, a THAT300P is a combination of a 2SC1583 and a 2SC2291.

Now, I'd like to know : in a THAT300P, the pair 1-2-3 / 12-13-14 is the 1583 or the 2291? huh?
juice721
I belive I've found the solution but I'm not shure.
I wonder... if ever I wire the japanese devices in a wrong way, does it will destroy something?
juice721
Hey Tony!

It's peanut butter jelly time! I've got the 2291 & 1583 pinouts !!! w00t

2sc2291 : E1 C1 B C2 B2 (common base)

2sc1583 : B1 C1 E C2 B2 (common emmiter)

I saw it on datasheet archive!

And I saw by comparing the TB303 Service Manual and the TM3030 schematics that the pair 1-2-3/12-13-14 of the THAT300P corresponds to a 2sc2291 and 5-6-7/8-9-10 pair corresponds to a 2sc1583.

A friend told me that a wrong transistor wiring can get it explose, so I will wait for your advises!

Could you help me now to wire it properly in your TM3030 design, please?
juice721
... How did you get this "Batman Waveform"??? huh?
Have you got an audio record of it?
Synthbuilder
Sorry for the delay - away on holiday.

juice721 wrote:
And I saw by comparing the TB303 Service Manual and the TM3030 schematics that the pair 1-2-3/12-13-14 of the THAT300P corresponds to a 2sc2291 and 5-6-7/8-9-10 pair corresponds to a 2sc1583


Actually, all four transistors in the THAT300 are identical so you can wire in them in any order. But, the pins you have given are probably the best ones to use simply because the devices you have can probably be made to fit.

juice721 wrote:
2sc2291 : E1 C1 B C2 B2 (common base)


That doesn't look right - two bases and no E2. Let us assume it is this:

E1 C1 B C2 E2 (common base)

Both the 2SC1583 and 2291 can be put in any way round. Either end is pin 1.

Take the 2291 first:

Pin 1 goes to pin 3 of U9
Pin 2 goes to pin 1 (or 14) of U9
Pin 3 goes to pin 2 (or 13) of U9
Pin 4 goes to pin 14 (or 1) of U9
Pin 5 goes to pin 12 of U9

Now the 1583s:

Pin 1 goes to pin 6 of U9
Pin 2 goes to pin 7 of U9
Pin 3 goes to pin 5 (or 10) of U9
Pin 4 goes to pin 8 of U9
Pin 5 goes to pin 10 (or 5) of U9

Pin 1 goes to pin 2 of U6
Pin 2 goes to pin 1 of U6
Pin 3 goes to pin 3 (or 6) of U6
Pin 4 goes to pin 8 of U6
Pin 5 goes to pin 7 of U6

I think that is right. Let us know how you get on.

Tony
Synthbuilder
juice721 wrote:
... How did you get this "Batman Waveform"??? huh?


It's from the Oakley Discontinuity module:

http://www.oakleysound.com/discon.htm

Paul did a small video of the device in operation:



Tony
juice721
Quote:
That doesn't look right - two bases and no E2. Let us assume it is this:

E1 C1 B C2 E2 (common base)


d'oh! ...... of course that's it! sorry! I may write earlier in the evening!

thanx a lot for your answer! Mr. Green

I'll tell what will append!
juice721
Hello Tony!

I've wired the japanese transistors as you told me, but it doesn't work as it should!

When I play a note on my keyboard, I just can ear a "pop" when I press down the key, and an other "pop" when I release it. I've checked the VCO at R45, and it's all rigth (if ever the Saw waveform of the synth is not exactly a Saw on a scope!)
When I check the sound at R98, I can only ear a "pop" when press down a key, and nothing when I release it.

I'm sorry to ask your help again, but I can't fix it alone!

Have you got an idea about what's wrong?
Synthbuilder
Unfortunately, it's very difficult to fault find by either e-mail or forum posts. I would suggest just check through the other components you have fitted and make sure they are the correct values and that there are no solder shorts visible. A good source of light and a magnifying glass helps here.

You should be getting sawtooth at R45 and the waveform switch, and it should be pretty much text book style.

Check whether you can see the waveform at C46. Check that the voltages are correct as shown on the schematic too.
juice721
No waveform at C46 exept a sine like signal of about a period, decaying, like a very very short bass drum, when I press down a key.

I think I've checked all voltages and I've got for :
+5V => 5.33V
+5V digital => 5.07V
+12V => 11.81V
+12VB =>11.64V

I'll get a magnifying glass tomorrow!
very frustrating
Synthbuilder
juice721 wrote:
No waveform at C46 exept a sine like signal of about a period, decaying, like a very very short bass drum, when I press down a key.


Does sound like a filter issue.

Check the section around the 2SC2291. And it might be worth checking those pin outs of the 2291 against the THAT300's NPN transistors again.

Tony
juice721
ok, I think you were wrong when you said :

"Take the 2291 first:

Pin 1 goes to pin 3 of U9
Pin 2 goes to pin 1 (or 14) of U9
Pin 3 goes to pin 2 (or 13) of U9
Pin 4 goes to pin 14 (or 1) of U9
Pin 5 goes to pin 12 of U9

Now the 1583s:

Pin 1 goes to pin 6 of U9
Pin 2 goes to pin 7 of U9
Pin 3 goes to pin 5 (or 10) of U9
Pin 4 goes to pin 8 of U9
Pin 5 goes to pin 10 (or 5) of U9 "

I think that pin 5 of the 1583 should be wire to pin 9 of U9.

Are you agree with this? hmmm.....
Synthbuilder
juice721 wrote:
I think that pin 5 of the 1583 should be wire to pin 9 of U9.


Yes, you are right. B2 goes to pin 9 of U9.

The other 2SC1583 seems to be right though.

Tony
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