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waveshapers like the DPO's
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Author waveshapers like the DPO's
tthogs
I love the dpo but cant stand that the waveshaping/folding section has no input to use with external sources. Considering selling my DPO for a more Modular approach: Getting 2 different vcos and a waveshaper/folder. I can find a lot of modules that do the folding like the DPO, but what about waveshaping? I love the glitched triangle and such. What modules have the waveshaping range that the DPO has? I've been looking, I guess I'm just confused as to why there are so many folders but so little shapers.
thisisprisma
μFold maybe?
erstlaub
I wonder if it's possibly a semantic/semiotic difference - different names for very similar things.

I've fairly limited experience of either as stand alone but I'm managed to fold/shape a sine using the 189-1 to closely resemble the sine with a triangle in the middle of it, from the folded/shaped out on the STO.

What's the difference between folding and shaping then?
tthogs
thisisprisma wrote:
μFold maybe?


The DPO consists of a folder, a waveshaper and an "angle" control. I wish I knew if the "symmetry" control on the ufold was more like the waveshaper or the angle on the DPO. The angle sounds a lot like pwm to me. Which I also love on the DPO.

If only the DPO had an input for the waveshaper/folder! very frustrating
Infiltrator
I REALLY wish Make Noise will release the DPO wavefolder/waveshaper section as a stand alone module.....

please Make Noise, pretty please?
ES
I feel the same way.

I was planning on selling my DPO and going for a couple independent osc's and a wavefolder (but then my fold knob started crackling like crazy and now I have to pay to get it repaired d'oh! )

I've heard great things about the ultrafold.. Is the shift control something like the angle?

Not sure myself but would be cool to know.
thisisprisma
tthogs wrote:
thisisprisma wrote:
μFold maybe?


The DPO consists of a folder, a waveshaper and an "angle" control. I wish I knew if the "symmetry" control on the ufold was more like the waveshaper or the angle on the DPO. The angle sounds a lot like pwm to me. Which I also love on the DPO.

If only the DPO had an input for the waveshaper/folder! very frustrating



that's an idea for a Make Noise possible future module, isn't it?

maybe they just can implement that circuit to process external audio on a simple small module...
thisisprisma
the 0-coast does not take external in, does it?
Futuresound
The DPO manual states that Angle "tilts the added harmonics to either end of the wave-cycle". Which isnt particularly descriptive, but if I'm reading it correctly, it means that you can adjust whether folding is applied more to the positive or negative peaks of your signal, or applied symmetrically.

The Ultrafold manual states that the Wave Shift control will "apply an offset to the input signal, effectively altering the symmetry of the wave folder'

Which sound like the same thing to me. Of course, they may sound completely different since they're different implementations, but conceptually I believe they're the same.

FWIW, I absolutely love my Ultrafold. It currently sits alongside my two Spectrums, but I use in on everything. It's beautifully responsive to adjustment via knob or CV and provides a really wide range of results from complete decimation to subtle thickening. I am seriously considering getting at least one more.
tthogs
Futuresound wrote:
The DPO manual states that Angle "tilts the added harmonics to either end of the wave-cycle". Which isnt particularly descriptive, but if I'm reading it correctly, it means that you can adjust whether folding is applied more to the positive or negative peaks of your signal, or applied symmetrically.

The Ultrafold manual states that the Wave Shift control will "apply an offset to the input signal, effectively altering the symmetry of the wave folder'

Which sound like the same thing to me. Of course, they may sound completely different since they're different implementations, but conceptually I believe they're the same.

FWIW, I absolutely love my Ultrafold. It currently sits alongside my two Spectrums, but I use in on everything. It's beautifully responsive to adjustment via knob or CV and provides a really wide range of results from complete decimation to subtle thickening. I am seriously considering getting at least one more.


I've been eyeing the Ultrafold as well. I just watched a video demo and it sounds like you are correct that the DPO angle control and the Ultrafold Wave Shift are mostly the same thing. However from the demo video it seems as if the wave shift isnt completely smooth. In other words it sounds like it steps around sometimes where the DPO's angle control is mostly pretty smooth. Can you speak to how smooth the Wave Shift control is?
brandonlogic
[quote="tthogs"]
Futuresound wrote:


I've been eyeing the Ultrafold as well. I just watched a video demo and it sounds like you are correct that the DPO angle control and the Ultrafold Wave Shift are mostly the same thing. However from the demo video it seems as if the wave shift isnt completely smooth. In other words it sounds like it steps around sometimes where the DPO's angle control is mostly pretty smooth. Can you speak to how smooth the Wave Shift control is?


If your just folding sines and you don't have the feedback knob up, the wave shift sounds very smooth.. Of course things can get wacky if you turn up feedback and use other wave forms.
Footkerchief
tthogs wrote:
I've been eyeing the Ultrafold as well. I just watched a video demo and it sounds like you are correct that the DPO angle control and the Ultrafold Wave Shift are mostly the same thing. However from the demo video it seems as if the wave shift isnt completely smooth. In other words it sounds like it steps around sometimes where the DPO's angle control is mostly pretty smooth. Can you speak to how smooth the Wave Shift control is?


It's smooth, but only when the feedback is at noon: https://www.muffwiggler.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=1974423#1974423

I also replaced my DPO with an Ultrafold (plus Dixies and FM Aid), and while I still haven't found a good equivalent to the DPO's Shape, I'm overall happy with the change.
mritenburg
Footkerchief wrote:
tthogs wrote:
I've been eyeing the Ultrafold as well. I just watched a video demo and it sounds like you are correct that the DPO angle control and the Ultrafold Wave Shift are mostly the same thing. However from the demo video it seems as if the wave shift isnt completely smooth. In other words it sounds like it steps around sometimes where the DPO's angle control is mostly pretty smooth. Can you speak to how smooth the Wave Shift control is?


It's smooth, but only when the feedback is at noon: https://www.muffwiggler.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=1974423#1974423

I also replaced my DPO with an Ultrafold (plus Dixies and FM Aid), and while I still haven't found a good equivalent to the DPO's Shape, I'm overall happy with the change.


DPO shape goes from sine, to spike, to triangle. You should be able to replicate 1/2 of that with a crossfader. Sine to spike or triangle to spike. I create spike waves using pw on a square wave.
Noha
it's a bit more HP, and I haven't scientifically compared them side-by-side, but to my ears the Doepfer A137-1 waveshaper is closest to the DPO waveshaper in sonic effect. It's also nicely priced wink
tthogs
mritenburg wrote:

DPO shape goes from sine, to spike, to triangle. You should be able to replicate 1/2 of that with a crossfader. Sine to spike or triangle to spike. I create spike waves using pw on a square wave.


I hadnt considered a cross fader but maybe that makes more sense for the shape part. Ive been watching Mannequins Mangrove videos and it seems to be able to make by itself almost all the sounds i can make with the DPO within reason.

Maybe a cool combo would be a mangrove, an ultrafold, and a vco that can double as an LFO like a Spectrum or a Dixie II.
chvad
If you have a voltage controlled switch sitting anywhere you can use that as a cheaper waveshaper for other VCO's:

tthogs
chvad wrote:
If you have a voltage controlled switch sitting anywhere you can use that as a cheaper waveshaper for other VCO's:



I just used maths as a waveshaper ... Oh maths...
LonzoB
tthogs wrote:
I love the dpo but cant stand that the waveshaping/folding section has no input to use with external sources. Considering selling my DPO for a more Modular approach: Getting 2 different vcos and a waveshaper/folder. I can find a lot of modules that do the folding like the DPO, but what about waveshaping? I love the glitched triangle and such. What modules have the waveshaping range that the DPO has? I've been looking, I guess I'm just confused as to why there are so many folders but so little shapers.


From the DPO manual:

Patching the Saw to the External Source Input of the Mod Bus with yield a completely different set of timbres. Especially the Fold circuit responds wonderfully to the more aggressive Saw shape. Finally, the Saw output is also excellent for patching Subtractive synthesis sounds.
ggillon
thisisprisma wrote:
the 0-coast does not take external in, does it?


Not for the wavefolder. Only at the end of the signal line, just before the LPG
Skilling
LonzoB wrote:
Patching the Saw to the External Source Input of the Mod Bus with yield a completely different set of timbres. Especially the Fold circuit responds wonderfully to the more aggressive Saw shape. Finally, the Saw output is also excellent for patching Subtractive synthesis sounds.


The external input of the mod bus is for an extrenal mod source, not the signal that is being shaped.

Now, I dont think I know of any complex oscillator that allows external waves to be shaped, but I do think it would be brilliant if Make Noise made a "stand alone" wave shaper.
atrostor
Shapeshifter’s wavefoler can take external input although it’s not as versatile as DPO’s.

Skilling wrote:
Now, I dont think I know of any complex oscillator that allows external waves to be shaped, but I do think it would be brilliant if Make Noise made a "stand alone" wave shaper.
thetaflux
here's some information from Mark Verbos buchla blog on how the waveshaping section of the buchla 259(the ancestor of the DPO) works.

Quote:
The core of a 259 is a triangle, not a saw. That triangle is sent to a sine shaper as well as a circuit that creates the quasi saw and square shapes and sweeps between them. The sine is sent to the wave folder, which has a vca before it. The timbre control crossfades between the sine and the saw/square wave and at the same time as controlling the gain of the vca before the wave folder. The two outputs of that are then crossfaded between via the order control. AM is achieved through a vactrol based balanced modulator after that.


And here are some videos of scope shots of the 261e(modern 259) and the DPO, so you can see some of the subtle differences.




applying this to the DPO, you can basically think of it as follows


Shape control: crossfader between 3 waveshapes before the wavefolder
Sine(full ccw)
Spike wave(12:00) as previously mentioned, some sort of high passed square to isolate a few high harmonics
Glitched triangle(full CW) makenoisean for a mix between the spike and triangle waves

Angle control: adds a DC offset to the mix. this shapes the sine into a square by forcing the upper bounds of the sine to clip the circuit and be squared off. however on the DPO, the control is bipolar, and seems go from being sine shaped to square shaped several times across the knob's range. on the buchla i think it's much more constrained.

Timbre: Wavefolder.

With complex oscillators it helps to think of them not in waveforms but in the overall harmonic content of the signal. The shape selects the balance between lower frequency and higher frequency harmonics in the signal, the angle allows for manipulation of those harmonics, and the fold allows you to control the overall level of harmonics present in the signal.

So in order to accurately recreate the dpo's waveshaping section(or at least the workflow of it) you have to have a waveshaper before the wavefolder, and some way to mix in a DC offset. This is why many commonly suggested DPO substitutes miss the mark, because they frequently are simply just an oscillator + wavefolder.
Monotremata
thetaflux wrote:

So in order to accurately recreate the dpo's waveshaping section(or at least the workflow of it) you have to have a waveshaper before the wavefolder, and some way to mix in a DC offset. This is why many commonly suggested DPO substitutes miss the mark, because they frequently are simply just an oscillator + wavefolder.


Hmm, so I guess you could use the STO for your primary oscillator then? Stick with the shape output and there's your waveshaper, plug into your wavefolder and rock. Hmm I gotta go try this with my STO and Ultrafold now.. Gonna be short some VCAs though hehe..
toppobrillo
the easel's primary oscillator and the 259's timbre section , there ya go
toppobrillo
Quote:
tilts the added harmonics to either end of the wave-cycle


mix a different waveform into a wavefolder, ie symmetric (sine/tri)/asymmetric (ramp)
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