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Pioneer TORAIZ SP-16 Sampler
MUFF WIGGLER Forum Index -> General Gear  
Author Pioneer TORAIZ SP-16 Sampler
johnnylonz
http://www.pioneerdj.com/en/product/production/toraiz-sp-16/black/over view/

Looks interesting, although for the price I think I'd rather get an Octatrack. And although it does have inputs, it doesn't make clear whether or not you can live sample into it?
Kennymester
Pretty interesting concept especially with the Pro DJ Link. I really hope though that you can do more than just 1/16 also I hope you can play samples at different pitches. Kind of disappointed too there isn't a synth engine built in. I'm also wondering if they are selling this more as a drum machine or a groovebox.
Hi5
Also, I assume the filters and drive are available per voice as opposed to the overall mix. Without the filters and fx per voice it's quite overpriced. Hopefully this doesn't suffer from bugs like the Tempest was plagued with.
DiscoDevil
johnnylonz wrote:
http://www.pioneerdj.com/en/product/production/toraiz-sp-16/black/over view/

Looks interesting, although for the price I think I'd rather get an Octatrack. And although it does have inputs, it doesn't make clear whether or not you can live sample into it?


I'd be very surprised if you can't. It's supposed to be a performance "DJ" tool so I'd assume it has live sampling and looping capabilities that sync to midi clock.
xonetacular
Might be interesting on it's own but IDK about this kind of stuff as an actual tool for DJs- it all seems kind of pointless. For a while the trendy thing to do was use maschine with traktor, and I think that's also pretty pointless and just for show. Adding some extra hihats and one shots or whatever doesn't actually add anything to a dj set. Most of the time adding that stuff to mastered tracks just makes it worse.

All these extra fancy tech tools seem like they are just for show to feed DJ's egos since they want to be seen doing more up there than just mixing tracks together since being a DJ has gotten a lot easier with technology.

I can appreciate a great DJ who is a master of selection and I don't think there's anything wrong with that. DJs should be DJs, and if they want to do more than that they should do a real live setup but these half assed hybrid gimmicks are just dumb.
johnnylonz
xonetacular wrote:
Might be interesting on it's own but IDK about this kind of stuff as an actual tool for DJs- it all seems kind of pointless. For a while the trendy thing to do was use maschine with traktor, and I think that's also pretty pointless and just for show. Adding some extra hihats and one shots or whatever doesn't actually add anything to a dj set. Most of the time adding that stuff to mastered tracks just makes it worse.

All these extra fancy tech tools seem like they are just for show to feed DJ's egos since they want to be seen doing more up there than just mixing tracks together since being a DJ has gotten a lot easier with technology.

I can appreciate a great DJ who is a master of selection and I don't think there's anything wrong with that. DJs should be DJs, and if they want to do more than that they should do a real live setup but these half assed hybrid gimmicks are just dumb.


For straight DJing it definitely seems overkill, but in more of a "live pa" situation it could be dope. Especially for live sampling loops off the modular and whatnot, mixing in stems from your self-produced tracks/samples etc. And having the individual outs gives it a leg up on an Octatrack in that situation as well.
DiscoDevil
xonetacular wrote:
Might be interesting on it's own but IDK about this kind of stuff as an actual tool for DJs- it all seems kind of pointless. For a while the trendy thing to do was use maschine with traktor, and I think that's also pretty pointless and just for show. Adding some extra hihats and one shots or whatever doesn't actually add anything to a dj set. Most of the time adding that stuff to mastered tracks just makes it worse.

All these extra fancy tech tools seem like they are just for show to feed DJ's egos since they want to be seen doing more up there than just mixing tracks together since being a DJ has gotten a lot easier with technology.

I can appreciate a great DJ who is a master of selection and I don't think there's anything wrong with that. DJs should be DJs, and if they want to do more than that they should do a real live setup but these half assed hybrid gimmicks are just dumb.



While I've never used it, I thought the point of Maschine integration was so people could perform their own material or remixes, edits, etc live like Ableton
xonetacular
Can it even live sample? It doesn't mention it.

"Just load samples, create patterns, add FX, loops, and manipulate their parameters to make your music your own."

It does have one pair of inputs, so who knows.

Also looks limited to only 16 steps on the sequencer

DiscoDevil wrote:


While I've never used it, I thought the point of Maschine integration was so people could perform their own material or remixes, edits, etc live like Ableton


Oh I didn't even know traktor finally actually got maschine integration. I was thinking back to a few years ago where people were setting it up via workarounds. it didn't seem like people were using it to perform their own material then.
chorus7
It looks a lot like the new Akai MPC hmmm..... is Pioneer owned by the same company as Akai?

Big difference would be that it looks stand alone...
johnnylonz
xonetacular wrote:


Also looks limited to only 16 steps on the sequencer


Those 4 little buttons to the right of the sequencer makes me think you could do up to 64 - kind of like on an elektron box. But can't find any documentation to back that up.

And yeah I'm also not clear on the live sampling functionality, although it seems to have inputs but not include that functionality would be dumb.
graphixsounds
it doesnt seem like all of the information is out on this box.

it seems like a competitor to the octatrack, which has many haters at this point because of the UX/UI difficulties.

im hoping that it can do ableton live session view loop/scene playing
graphixsounds
pioneer make very high quality hardware and intuitive user interfaces- im excited to find out more
CF3
Interesting for sure. This came outta nowhere. Need more info, but WOW.... Way to go Pioneer.
Villarceau
I have an irrational lust for PioneerDJ products. Luckily this time, it is offset by my rational dislike of DSI. Still almost tempting though...
h4ndcrafted
I guess there will be no prizes for guessing DSI where doing the filters and also grab the attention of a certain market at the same time.


If it Pioneer you can be sure it is gonna be built well. Ticks boxes for me as the fx will likely sound good for live too.
There is a gap in the market for a well built sampler that is easy to use and perform on, I hope this does well.

I'd of liked to of seen performance sliders , but I guess Pioneer would just say they have a range of powerful mixers.

Nice one Pioneer!

Just saw the price, this really needs to be able to do what it says on the tin for that, I.e the time stretch has hold up against Live etc. If it is filter per voice then that might be a no brainier for me , especially if it has a bit more presence than the RYTM I had, which was great but just felt too halfway house.

Can anybody confirm you can actually sample ? I will bang my head if you can't sample on the fly.
AdamJay
I hope this forces Elektron's hand in pushing out an Octatrack 2.

Also worth noting that this thing ain't exactly the model of portability. At 10.28” x 17.19” it's larger than the Tempest.
Say what you will about Elektron, at least you can fit three of them in a hard case that's carry-on approved.
jshell
Regarding the filters - they don't seem to be per-voice, but I've only skimmed this article.

http://createdigitalmusic.com/2016/04/we-talked-to-dave-smith-about-th ose-pioneer-sampler-filters/

Quote:

The high-pass and low-pass filters are each based on those on the Prophet-6. DSI didn’t just email over the specs for their filters to Pioneer in Japan and call it a day. There are some differences that DSI have confirmed to CDM. Some technical details are different (think voltage), but the main changes are these:

You get two of each (one for each channel in the stereo signal path); the Prophet-6 is mono.


With the filter section having dedicated knobs with hard-printed graphics, I suspect they really are just on the outputs?
boboter
I'm pretty sure there is just one pair of analog filters, not one per voice. In the CDM interview, Dave Smith says it is a true stereo filter. So having this per voice would be quite a bit more expensive judging by the cost of eg a prophet 12.

Edit:
jshell beat me to it. Sorry for the redundance
johnnylonz
jshell wrote:

With the filter section having dedicated knobs with hard-printed graphics, I suspect they really are just on the outputs?


If I had to guess I'd say just the one filter and then you route what you want through it from the fx screen on each voice.
Hi5
Given only a stereo filter the FX better be something special since outside of the extra channels this isn't worth that much more than an Octa. I doubt the sequencer will be as flexible as the Octa so sound-wise this better be special
h4ndcrafted
AdamJay wrote:
I hope this forces Elektron's hand in pushing out an Octatrack 2.

Also worth noting that this thing ain't exactly the model of portability. At 10.28” x 17.19” it's larger than the Tempest.
Say what you will about Elektron, at least you can fit three of them in a hard case that's carry-on approved.


This actually comes as a comfort to me. I was worried from the pictures we would have RYTM sized pads and encoders that were too close together.

Just having a sturdy build sampler in the 21st century would be welcome. I hope they didn't mess up with the pads. If it is anything like the pioneer gear I have owned before, it will take a lot of abuse.

Thanks also, does look like it is a master filter :( don't find that much use for that, I can't see them having layering etc , either. I don't think this is ment to be an MPC style type piece,more a performance phrase sampler/ Drum machine, just probably a high quality one.

I may just order it to give it a try be I have been waiting for something like this for so long. All prep can be done on computers now days, I have just wanted a quick sampler and play back device of decent quality and size.
CF3
Hi5 wrote:
Given only a stereo filter the FX better be something special since outside of the extra channels this isn't worth that much more than an Octa. I doubt the sequencer will be as flexible as the Octa so sound-wise this better be special


Yeah, seeing that they're marketing this as some sort of DJ add on, I would think at least two independent filters would be better (like an A&H Xone mixer). I don't see the big deal with Dave Smith filter anyways honestly, but thats just me. I'm still hopeful overall about this. I'm much more interested in what's under the hood as far as MIDI, editing, sequencing, etc... Pioneer gear has always been somewhat expensive so I'm not shocked at the prictag.

I'll withhold final judgement until I can get ahold of the manual.
johnnylonz
Found this pic of the screen which seems to show a track being routed through the filter as an FX send. Also there are 2 buttons at the top right "Browse" and "Sampling/Edit" which leads me to believe it does in fact do live sampling. And the fact that there is a "Track type" button makes me think it might do MIDI sequencing as well.

h4ndcrafted
This spec list says nothing about fx, I'd be surprised if you only had the filters to play with.
From CDM site

16-step sequencer with 256 patterns
7-inch full color touch screen. (That’s not unlike what Akai just did with MPC Touch – though an important detail will be to see how the touch screen feels; it’s tough when Apple are setting the bar.)
4×4 RGB pads, of course, which you can use with or without velocity. (Disco pads seem a necessary feature these days.
x0x-style step sequencing on the bottom, in addition to the MPC-style pad layout.
16-tracks of real-time playback.
A whole lot of sample storage: 8GB of flash memory are built in, with 2GB of samples from Loopmasters pre-loaded.
Amp envelope and time stretching. I’m curious to hear how good the time stretching algorithms sound.
Touch strip for controlling pitch bend and “various parameters”
Pro DJ Link for sync, as well as MIDI clock (more on that in a moment)
USB and MIDI DIN (in and out/thru) onboard.
8 audio outputs, 2 audio inputs, phone jack.
GovernorSilver
AdamJay wrote:
I hope this forces Elektron's hand in pushing out an Octatrack 2.


You mean a Bestä. Or a Hemnes. Or a Samplrtørp

Anything but "Octatrack 2".

There's no Monomachine 2, Machinedrum 2, etc. That's the Elektron way.
h4ndcrafted
I think the CDM article raises an interesting wish, Ableton link caperbility, that would pretty awesome.

http://createdigitalmusic.com/2016/04/pioneer-just-made-the-hardware-s ampler-that-ni-akai-didnt/
jkile9
If this thing has live sampling that might push me over the edge. I love the capabilities of the Octatrack but have an extra 8 tracks, better pads than the RYTM, 8 outputs and an analog filter sounds soon great. Wasn't able to find any info on the site about it either. This feels like what the MPC Touch should have been
Eme
If it has MIDI sequencing, more than 16 steps, and its real time sampling and timestretching capabilities are good enough, this could be a really great product. Even though the price tag is just absurd. 1600€ is really pricey for a beautiful sampler.

Anyway, Pioneer seems to have won the race for the "standalone pad sampler". AKAI teased us with a 'Windows embedded' standalone MPC a long time ago (2 years now) and it smells like vaporware...
GovernorSilver
To be truly a competitor to the Octatrack, it would need parameter-locking or at least some kind of parameter automation.

If this product is a success, maybe they'll consider a poor folks' version that substitutes a digital/analog modeling filter for the Prophet 6 filters. Then those customer will complain how the filter sucks but, hey, life is hard in the first world.
poppinger
The specs section on the website says that the inputs and outputs are RCA jacks, but in the rendering on CDM they look like 1/4" jacks. hmmm.....
h4ndcrafted
I can't see it being any of those things. Pioneer make robust easy to use Dj equipment. That is their thing.

This isn't going to be a programmers/experimentalist sampler, it will do a few things very well and be reliable. I guess that is what you're paying for. I will be very surprised if it has much sequencing capability. Just take a look at their other gear, it is relatively simple, but you pay a lot because their gear is club proof.

Personally if the build is excellent this could be a very reliable, if pricey live sampler. If it does a lot more than seq and realtime time stretch I will be suprised.

I hope it has a good groove element to it, like templates, be nice if it has some sort of Lofi mode as well. I'd like a few decent fx thrown in at this price from their other units, although will probably air on the more obvious cheesy dj sort. Still I'm not even sure will have much more than seq and an analogue filter ? Hence the big deal made of the DSI element.

Sending some of those outs to their fx units could be a lot of fun!


I just thought, the Tempest is only a few hundred more than this, that price feels a bit steeper now.
dpad
I'm interested in this because it could present an interesting tool not only for augmenting DJ performances, but for sample-based music creation. I've used Traktor for years, and I love grabbing loops from songs on the fly. And with four tracks, you can create interesting multilayered loops. I have not, however, found a place for remix decks in my workflow. I also have Maschine, which I sample stuff from Traktor into. But one of the most infuriating limitations of Maschine is that it still does not have realtime timestretching. And there is still no real integration between Traktor and Maschine. With the TORAIZ and Rekordbox DVS, this could be really interesting if they get it right. If you can grab samples from Rekordbox or external sources on the fly, sequence them and save them, I might give it a try. Really looking forward to demos.
AdamJay
GovernorSilver wrote:
AdamJay wrote:
I hope this forces Elektron's hand in pushing out an Octatrack 2.


You mean a Bestä. Or a Hemnes. Or a Samplrtørp

Anything but "Octatrack 2".

There's no Monomachine 2, Machinedrum 2, etc. That's the Elektron way.


Okay, Octatrack Mk2, then.
h4ndcrafted
What's the scene button for ? Do you think it is like midi snapshots like the su700 ?

Make those 16 steps a bit more diverse.
CF3
h4ndcrafted wrote:
What's the scene button for ? Do you think it is like midi snapshots like the su700 ?

Make those 16 steps a bit more diverse.


SCENE is just probably a collection of Sequences, much like a lot of other machines (and Ableton for that matter). Useful for live song structure.
The 4 "pad mode" buttons under the 16 pads look interesting...TRACK, MUTE, SLICE, SCALE... Triggering and muting sequences in realtime from the pads is one of my favorite MPC functions. Hopefully the SLICE is "pad chopping" a sample or loop. Not sure what SCALE will do? Could be a couple different things. Also looks to have MPC-style Note Repeat. The LENGTH button is encouraging for polyrhythms. Hopefully it can do different time divisions per track.

With any machine like this I think it'll be all about the operating system. The build itself looks solid.
graphixsounds
both the touchscreen and timestretching should be top notch considering they've had the tech in several of their products for years.

most of pioneers dj products are built with great quality and work very well. i wouldnt expect this to behave differently.

someone at pioneer should start answering questions though bc this announcement has provoked a lot of great questions about what it does or could do
codemode
...I just can't believe that the Pioneer folks let DSI use that awful mistral font for Dave's signature. It makes everything look awful to me (flashbacks of Flashdance, Silk Stalkings, Sandals resorts, or that shitty restaurant across the street from my house). It was fine when he started DSI and wanted to slap his sig on there without having to hire someone or take the time to make a proper logo with vector graphics. It needs to die a miserable death twisted maybe I'll start a petition razz

Look forward to more details. On first sight it seems a bit shorthanded on several aspects but waiting for more concrete details.
Paranormal Patroler
CF3 wrote:
SCENE is just probably a collection of Sequences, much like a lot of other machines (and Ableton for that matter). Useful for live song structure.
The 4 "pad mode" buttons under the 16 pads look interesting...TRACK, MUTE, SLICE, SCALE... Triggering and muting sequences in realtime from the pads is one of my favorite MPC functions. Hopefully the SLICE is "pad chopping" a sample or loop. Not sure what SCALE will do? Could be a couple different things. Also looks to have MPC-style Note Repeat. The LENGTH button is encouraging for polyrhythms. Hopefully it can do different time divisions per track.


I have the exact same questions, especially when I saw SCALE on there.
h4ndcrafted
Of course, being a Live user that should of twigged d'oh!

At least there are some short of of fxs, starting to think there wasn't any. One of the pics has chorus as fx 1. I wonder how they have organised them.

Maybe I'm wrong and they have a few non dj type fx (more subtle sounding) as this is in a 'Production' category on their website.
Paranormal Patroler
Is there a price available ? hmmm.....
Barfunkel
Paranormal Patroler wrote:
Is there a price available ? hmmm.....


If you have to ask, you don't wanna know. It aint' cheap!
Eme
Paranormal Patroler wrote:
Is there a price available ? hmmm.....


1600€... zombie
Eme
The polyrythmic capabilities would be a huge turn on for me, though. help
Villarceau
GovernorSilver wrote:
To be truly a competitor to the Octatrack, it would need parameter-locking or at least some kind of parameter automation.


To be a competitor to the octatrack it would need better sound (quite possible) and more outputs (check) if does do live sampling. I had the Pioneer RMX-1000 and it supported entering little unquantized rhythm sequences on the mini-sample player. If it will sport a few nice effects (I'm not sure it will) with sufficient nuances, this is a competition for both the octratrack and rytm especially because this is going to be easy to use, for some users that will matter a lot. The fact that this can synched to a CDJ is the major selling point for me: it would be a great way to gig without a computer and using minimal gear.
Parametex
I feel that this machine will sufficiently do what the 70% of the octa ppl use their OT for.
DiscoDevil
All the talk about Pioneer build quality has me scratching my head. Pioneer stuff is generally feature rich and has a nice finish but is notoriously poor in build quality and longevity. I'm always surprised when I play on a Pioneer mixer that's more than a year old and is still fully functional.
tom.bzode
At that price point this thing better have a good MIDI spec...

No mention so far as to whether it can sequence external MIDI gear. To continue in the lineage of the MPC etc this should really be a given.

Can it be driven by an external sequencer, fully multi-timbral, across channels?

I am pessimistic.
marcomoreno
Villarceau wrote:
GovernorSilver wrote:
To be truly a competitor to the Octatrack, it would need parameter-locking or at least some kind of parameter automation.


To be a competitor to the octatrack it would need better sound (quite possible) and more outputs (check) if does do live sampling. I had the Pioneer RMX-1000 and it supported entering little unquantized rhythm sequences on the mini-sample player. If it will sport a few nice effects (I'm not sure it will) with sufficient nuances, this is a competition for both the octratrack and rytm especially because this is going to be easy to use, for some users that will matter a lot. The fact that this can synched to a CDJ is the major selling point for me: it would be a great way to gig without a computer and using minimal gear.


The Toraiz does have 8 Outputs.
http://www.pioneerdj.com/en/product/production/toraiz-sp-16/black/spec ifications/
marcomoreno
tom.bzode wrote:
At that price point this thing better have a good MIDI spec...

No mention so far as to whether it can sequence external MIDI gear. To continue in the lineage of the MPC etc this should really be a given.

Can it be driven by an external sequencer, fully multi-timbral, across channels?

I am pessimistic.


Midi out seems to be implemented. It would be strange if this machine is not able to sequence external stuff.
Read the specs http://www.pioneerdj.com/en/product/production/toraiz-sp-16/black/spec ifications/
lamouette/rck
DiscoDevil wrote:
All the talk about Pioneer build quality has me scratching my head. Pioneer stuff is generally feature rich and has a nice finish but is notoriously poor in build quality and longevity. I'm always surprised when I play on a Pioneer mixer that's more than a year old and is still fully functional.


Exactly, every Pioneer stuff i had, are well finished, but really poor quality.
AdamJay
CF3 wrote:
h4ndcrafted wrote:
What's the scene button for ?


SCENE is just probably a collection of Sequences, much like a lot of other machines (and Ableton for that matter). Useful for live song structure.


Bummer, if so.
Was hoping for OT style Scene or even Rytm style macro Scene.
GovernorSilver
Villarceau wrote:
GovernorSilver wrote:
To be truly a competitor to the Octatrack, it would need parameter-locking or at least some kind of parameter automation.


To be a competitor to the octatrack it would need better sound (quite possible) and more outputs (check) if does do live sampling. I had the Pioneer RMX-1000 and it supported entering little unquantized rhythm sequences on the mini-sample player. If it will sport a few nice effects (I'm not sure it will) with sufficient nuances, this is a competition for both the octratrack and rytm especially because this is going to be easy to use, for some users that will matter a lot. The fact that this can synched to a CDJ is the major selling point for me: it would be a great way to gig without a computer and using minimal gear.


I should have specified that as far as I am concerned, it needs parameter locks or parameter automation.

A lot of haters say the Octatrack has terrible sound so it wouldn't take much for a new product to "sound better". After all, "good" or "better" sound is highly subjective.

Yes, it has more outputs than Octatrack. See http://www.pioneerdj.com/en-us/news/2016/toraiz-sp-16-sampler-and-step -sequencer/
heckadecimal69
GovernorSilver wrote:
AdamJay wrote:
I hope this forces Elektron's hand in pushing out an Octatrack 2.



There's no Monomachine 2, Machinedrum 2, etc. That's the Elektron way.


actually...
Miley Cyrus
GovernorSilver
heckadecimal69 wrote:
GovernorSilver wrote:
AdamJay wrote:
I hope this forces Elektron's hand in pushing out an Octatrack 2.



There's no Monomachine 2, Machinedrum 2, etc. That's the Elektron way.


actually...
Miley Cyrus


Ok, you got me. There is a Machinedrum MkII.

But they did release Analog Rytm later. And did not call it MachineDrum III
AdamJay
Also Monomachine mk2.

I doubt we'll get an "Analog Samplr"
GovernorSilver
AdamJay wrote:
Also Monomachine mk2.

I doubt we'll get an "Analog Samplr"


Yeah but for some reason instead of Monomachine 3 we have Analog Keys/Analog 4.

I don't think the next-gen sampler will have that name either - that's why it didn't make the list of names I speculated would be used.
Hi5
The more I look at this, assuming the FX and time stretching are good, I could see this replacing my OT for live gigs especially when they start showing up used.
AdamJay
GovernorSilver wrote:
AdamJay wrote:
Also Monomachine mk2.

I doubt we'll get an "Analog Samplr"


Yeah but for some reason instead of Monomachine 3 we have Analog Keys/Analog 4.

I don't think the next-gen sampler will have that name either - that's why it didn't make the list of names I speculated would be used.


No one is talking about an Octatrack 3 here, so not sure what you're arguing here.

Octatrack mk2 would fall in line with Elektron's history of revising existing products (the subject at hand here). Hence, Monomachine Mk2 is named as such, and not named the "Vertdaferk?".

For some reason? Really?
If you need help understanding why the Analog 4 is named as such and how it is a different product than the Monomachine and not a revision of the Monomachine, I would suggest you look at the specifications of both product lines.
h4ndcrafted
DiscoDevil wrote:
All the talk about Pioneer build quality has me scratching my head. Pioneer stuff is generally feature rich and has a nice finish but is notoriously poor in build quality and longevity. I'm always surprised when I play on a Pioneer mixer that's more than a year old and is still fully functional.


I haven't used pioneer gear for a while, most of the gear I had my hands on was analogue mixers and such, they took a battering quite frankly. They can't be that bad, enough clubs had them installed. Although Formula Sound seemed to be quite a common choice.

Maybe it is the idiot proof layout, but I haven't teamed Pioneer with bad build quality at all. It is just not exceptional quality.

I'd take a Pioneer over Elektons, which isn't bad by any means.
GovernorSilver
AdamJay wrote:
GovernorSilver wrote:
AdamJay wrote:
Also Monomachine mk2.

I doubt we'll get an "Analog Samplr"


Yeah but for some reason instead of Monomachine 3 we have Analog Keys/Analog 4.

I don't think the next-gen sampler will have that name either - that's why it didn't make the list of names I speculated would be used.


No one is talking about an Octatrack 3 here, so not sure what you're arguing here.

Octatrack mk2 would fall in line with Elektron's history of revising existing products (the subject at hand here). Hence, Monomachine Mk2 is named as such, and not named the "Vertdaferk?".

For some reason? Really?
If you need help understanding why the Analog 4 is named as such and how it is a different product than the Monomachine and not a revision of the Monomachine, I would suggest you look at the specifications of both product lines.


Sorry, man. I was having a bit of fun with the "Octatrack 2" thing. Didn't think it would upset you that much.

Half the names I put up were from the Ikea catalog.
h4ndcrafted
So what are the pads like on these modern Pioneers ? I read they are the same as some controller they do, prob for serato.

Anybody used it and can report on the quality and feel ?
h4ndcrafted
AdamJay wrote:
CF3 wrote:
h4ndcrafted wrote:
What's the scene button for ?


SCENE is just probably a collection of Sequences, much like a lot of other machines (and Ableton for that matter). Useful for live song structure.


Bummer, if so.
Was hoping for OT style Scene or even Rytm style macro Scene.


Unless it is a collection and their setting, which kind of the same on the su and ableton now I think of it, now clips hold automation data.

Nothing about groove functionality too, big one for me, can't stand working on this sort of thing if you can't at least nudge to make your own swing or have templates. Basic swing seems a bit low spec now days.
CF3
h4ndcrafted wrote:
AdamJay wrote:
CF3 wrote:
h4ndcrafted wrote:
What's the scene button for ?


SCENE is just probably a collection of Sequences, much like a lot of other machines (and Ableton for that matter). Useful for live song structure.


Bummer, if so.
Was hoping for OT style Scene or even Rytm style macro Scene.


Unless it is a collection and their setting, which kind of the same on the su and ableton now I think of it, now clips hold automation data.


I think this would be a base-case scenario. Sequencers from the 80's can do this sort of thing. By definition that's what a scene is. I just hope it includes everything......effects, filter, the slider automation, etc.

I also agree about "groove" or swing, but I would think if you're gonna include pads, you're gonna have to have unquantized sequencing or what's the point? All it would take is DELAY per step like on the Cirklon for the step sequencer.

Again, MUST. SEE. MANUAL. Help a brother out Pioneer. MY ASS IS BLEEDING
computer controlled
Way too expensive. Seems more marketed towards cotton candy edm "djs" rather than serious production. For the price, it better have proper effects per channel, not their "DJ EFEX", and the sample mangling better be on par with the OTs. Parameter locking, muting should be at trigger level, not on the actual audio track. And serious MIDI sequencing capabilities. Otherwise, not interested.

This just makes me miss my Octatrack even more.
GovernorSilver
Good point - why would you give the user pads but not let the user turn off quantize.

Some MPC users are famous for their real-time MPC pad drumming.
h4ndcrafted
Well I think there is obviously going to be some sort of automation per pattern, otherwise why have assignable touch slider.

I think there is no point comparing it to the Octotrack, I highly doubt the sequencer will be as advanced, more like a basic Mpc with realtime time stretch.

Having a master filter makes me think this isn't going to be about creating tracks, how often do you want to filter the master ? This part just seems like a gimmick. Maybe you can send stuff to the filter as already mentioned ?

This is more a remix tool to bridge the dj/production gap. I just think Pioneer are gonna get a lot of hate bc people really want a new hardware production sampler, and this is going to be more a DJ thing for ready made loops, not to work from the ground up. But then they have it in a production category.

I doubt it will have a very good sequencer at all for anything than local pattern based performance.
h4ndcrafted
Derpt
kstl
xonetacular
so on the plus side we learned it does live sample

only has one set of inputs though. didn't hear anything about more than 16 step sequences either. and it inherited the DJM effects...

I just hope this might force elektron to start putting out units with decent displays.
blinosynth
xonetacular wrote:

I just hope this might force elektron to start putting out units with decent displays.


...and no more irritating OS
h4ndcrafted
kstl wrote:


Sounds as if it isn't finished enough to give more detail , editing etc ?

Good to hear it has enough Ram, Pioneer aren't exactly going out of their way to sell it, which is why I think it is so unfinished.

I'm assuming you will be able to resample, hopefully with the filter.
johnnylonz
h4ndcrafted wrote:
Sounds as if it isn't finished enough to give more detail , editing etc ?


Good strategy IMO. I'd rather have them be a little coy on the features now and over-deliver on the finished product.
CF3
Pretty useless video honestly. I really don't need Dave Smith telling me how magical an analog filter is. Short on actual info. Nick was struggling to pry specs out of the other dude. I appreciate the sales pitch and everything, but get somebody who can talk intelligently on the subject. Details people, DETAILS.
h4ndcrafted
This on the GS thread..

'I just had a very nice dinner with the lead software programmer/designer of the Toraiz. Sampling from the audio input is possible. Additionally, you can resample through the analog filter section'
johnnylonz
Little more info here:

http://createdigitalmusic.com/2016/04/we-got-our-hands-on-pioneers-new -sps-16-sampler/

Confirms MIDI sequencing in later firmware, can chain 4x16 step sequences, can do swing and shuffle, possible DAW integration in the works.
heckadecimal69
getting interesting...
CF3
johnnylonz wrote:
Little more info here:

http://createdigitalmusic.com/2016/04/we-got-our-hands-on-pioneers-new -sps-16-sampler/

Confirms MIDI sequencing in later firmware, can chain 4x16 step sequences, can do swing and shuffle, possible DAW integration in the works.


applause good find. More meat on bones in that one. Some decent pics.
boxxgrooved
chorus7 wrote:
It looks a lot like the new Akai MPC hmmm..... is Pioneer owned by the same company as Akai?.


That's what I thought. It looks like the Akai/Numark crew had something to do with it, but I just looked up who owns Pioneer DJ and its owned by a monster equity firm called KKR
smilinggoat
GovernorSilver wrote:
AdamJay wrote:
GovernorSilver wrote:
AdamJay wrote:
Also Monomachine mk2.

I doubt we'll get an "Analog Samplr"


Yeah but for some reason instead of Monomachine 3 we have Analog Keys/Analog 4.

I don't think the next-gen sampler will have that name either - that's why it didn't make the list of names I speculated would be used.


No one is talking about an Octatrack 3 here, so not sure what you're arguing here.

Octatrack mk2 would fall in line with Elektron's history of revising existing products (the subject at hand here). Hence, Monomachine Mk2 is named as such, and not named the "Vertdaferk?".

For some reason? Really?
If you need help understanding why the Analog 4 is named as such and how it is a different product than the Monomachine and not a revision of the Monomachine, I would suggest you look at the specifications of both product lines.


Sorry, man. I was having a bit of fun with the "Octatrack 2" thing. Didn't think it would upset you that much.

Half the names I put up were from the Ikea catalog.


No no no, you guys have it all wrong. It will be an upgrade so it will have 9 tracks this time and be called Novemtrack
h4ndcrafted
Cool, I wonder if that touch screen could be used as an x/y controller, seems like an obvious thing to implement.
smilinggoat
h4ndcrafted wrote:
Cool, I wonder if that touch screen could be used as an x/y controller, seems like an obvious thing to implement.


Like a Kaoss Pad? Interesting idea!

I'm spoiled by Apple. Now every touch screen that doesn't do multitouch feels broken. I doubt this screen will. We shall see.
newgreyarea
This thing looks pretty dope. It will be interesting to see what features it ships with.
I own an Octatrack . . . it has questionable sound. . . . and a RYTM. Don't get me started on that box!

My only concern with this would be price point versus my lack of experience with anything Pioneer. I don't know how well they engage with their users to help squash any bugs and performance issues or if their products end up falling apart easily. Just not familiar with them.
h4ndcrafted
smilinggoat wrote:
h4ndcrafted wrote:
Cool, I wonder if that touch screen could be used as an x/y controller, seems like an obvious thing to implement.


Like a Kaoss Pad? Interesting idea!

I'm spoiled by Apple. Now every touch screen that doesn't do multitouch feels broken. I doubt this screen will. We shall see.


Ain't that the truth! Even their track pad works as an x/y in Live. Just broke mine, didnt realise these things were covered in glass. The new one is over £100. Thankfully the old ones go for £30 on ebay.
Villarceau
This is a funny video of a Toraiz SP-16 in the wild. A beta tester probably who forgot about the NDA or something. It kind of looks dated on this already while it's not even out. I'm still curious though.

Northbest
The manual is out if anyone wants to dig through it.

http://docs.pioneerdj.com/Manuals/TORAIZ_SP_16_DRI1377A_manual/

I'm absolutely irrationally excited for this, but I'm not sure I'm willing to be an early adopter at $1500. I've wanted a super-quick-to-navigate x0x sampler for years and this seems to me to be a bit of a dream instrument. I'm just really frustrated that we're just around a week and change before the hypothetical release date and there's been nothing new on this in months beyond a steady thin trickle.

It doesn't seem like they know how to advertise this or who to advertise it to.
Mirrorad
The Toraiz is giving me uncontrollable Gear Acquisition Syndrome. I. Must. Resist. Being. An. Early. Adopter. very frustrating
computer controlled
Is this thing actually being released?
Mr. Roboto
At least in Germany the first devices have already been delivered.
rockreid

[/video]First unboxing video (in Spanish)
dubonaire
Northbest wrote:
The manual is out if anyone wants to dig through it.

http://docs.pioneerdj.com/Manuals/TORAIZ_SP_16_DRI1377A_manual/

I'm absolutely irrationally excited for this, but I'm not sure I'm willing to be an early adopter at $1500. I've wanted a super-quick-to-navigate x0x sampler for years and this seems to me to be a bit of a dream instrument. I'm just really frustrated that we're just around a week and change before the hypothetical release date and there's been nothing new on this in months beyond a steady thin trickle.

It doesn't seem like they know how to advertise this or who to advertise it to.


Thanks for the manual link
prae
really quite dubious.

the "dave smith filters" seem like a bit of a gimmick. especially concerned about pioneer's OS / interface. rekordbox is a shockingly awful piece of software and to my knowledge that's the most "advanced" software they've ever made.

i feel like pioneer is trying to get in the hardware market by bridging the gap between what they're known for - CDJs etc - and what they want by settling with some bizarre hybrid performance tool that aims to create a niche / market that doesn't exist.

like i said, really quite dubious. we'll see i guess.

better be fucking decent for 1.3k too.
Robscorch
prae wrote:

i feel like pioneer is trying to get in the hardware market by bridging the gap between what they're known for - CDJs etc - and what they want by settling with some bizarre hybrid performance tool that aims to create a niche / market that doesn't exist.


The DJ market has always existed my friend nothing new at all. Sampling is standard practice and part of many DJ's repertoire specially those that sorta produce if you want to call it that. I don't know about outside the states, but I think this will sell well enough for guitar centers to carry them a few years for sure. I had 2 SP404's that I would have traded for something like this.

Also Pioneer is a leading hardware manufacture that started in 1938 as a repair shop and in fact created the first automotive CD player. They know a thing or two about creating hardware and certainly a thing or two about creating interfaces to work with that hardware. Their integrated touch screens are some of the longest lasting most functional in the car audio market.
gentle_attack
GovernorSilver wrote:
AdamJay wrote:
I hope this forces Elektron's hand in pushing out an Octatrack 2.


You mean a Bestä. Or a Hemnes. Or a Samplrtørp

Anything but "Octatrack 2".

There's no Monomachine 2, Machinedrum 2, etc. That's the Elektron way.


"Wut." There were 2 MnM and at least 3 Machinedrums:
https://www.elektron.se/legacy-products/#
prae
Robscorch wrote:


The DJ market has always existed my friend nothing new at all. Sampling is standard practice and part of many DJ's repertoire specially those that sorta produce if you want to call it that.


ok well in the UK that's really uncommon. you either play bounces of your own material or do a live set, although some do hybrids. but it's more jeff mills style than some tight digital integration.

i guess the ones that "sorta produce" are those overhyped american djs who have an array of ghostproducers to make them tracks for more credibility.
h4ndcrafted
Not sure why I have lost gas for this, I think it is my eyes doing it. Kinda looks like a toy and conjures up picture of rich 14 year olds with sample packs.

Oh dear I'm a snob now, I hate getting old :(
tokidoki
Sorry for our weird english, but this instrument is a wonder awaited since the Yamaha RS-7000. 8 GB Sampler, 16 tracks sequencer, 64 steps TR-selection for triggers, patterns and scenes. Plus 16 pads, a big color and touch screen, rotary selectors, a clear display of essential commands. Only one big deception, we will have to wait until 2017 for the MIDI Out notes sequencing function update. MIDI Notes In function update in November 2016. Multi FX will arrive before, but MIDI Notes In/Out is what we need first. We need sampling a n d MIDI sequencing in the same box. It's a standalone instrument. No computer, fluidity in the musical processing. All the things we awaited from the Octatrack, so compact, so rich and promising little dark box but so frustrating when you like the old RM1x system limpidity. We have pre-ordered one SP-16 the day it was available but the delivering has been reported two times. We work with a large modular system and this SP-16 could be the perfect instrument to record, re-sample, arrange, mix and play all the ephemeral miracles we discover everyday. We hope the sound will be as attractive as the design.
RichMakeGame
good to see there's an arranger mode. Not that I can afford one but it looks cool
prae
h4ndcrafted wrote:


conjures up picture of rich 14 year olds with sample packs.

DiscoDevil
If it will allow me to seamlessly integrate high quality sampling in to my workflow without having to stop everything to chop and edit and gets Elektron out of my life, it's worth the price.
z3r01
Quick overview from DJ TechTools:

h4ndcrafted
It seems like they basically have made an Elektron. Four effects banks though , is that right ?

I hope you can push and pull notes off the grid.
IR
h4ndcrafted wrote:
I hope you can push and pull notes off the grid.

depends how well trained in the Force you are.
reverberation
People who say this is better than Elektron Octatrack...hmm...

Toraiz can play 16 samples at the same time but has a maximum of 32 seconds per sample.
I use my Octatrack every day and I can stream a ten minute (or ten hour) long sample on one track and play with shorter samples on the other seven tracks.
It's possible to have the Octatrack playing different samples on different steps on the same track. Meaning I can program, for instance, open and closed hihat on the same track, lo mid and hi tom on the same track etc. Five samples in my example using only two samples.

Toraiz seems great and I was actually heading out the door to purchase one today. I thought you'd be able to play long tracks on it. Like putting a sample of five minutes in one of the 16 sample slots. 32 second limit makes it kind of useless for me personally.

To use Toraiz as a backing track machine or to DJ with it is impossible, which is a shame considering its interface.

All good. I'll keep my beloved Octatrack, thank you.
tokidoki
Working since one week with this great instrument. The sound is big, the sequencer needs updates but is already usable with some smart details. MIDI sync is perfect, sampling and storage are easy. All the functions are quickly found and the use of colored tracks is pleasant. For us it's the standalone sampling-sequencer we hoped some manufacturer would create one day. We only ask for a complete MIDI sequencer and are sure that Pioneer will quickly add this update to the SP-16.
DiscoDevil
Have one on the way.
chorus7
Any more updates or reviews on this? How is it sequencing external gear? How much sample time does it have? How are the effects? Especially the reverb...

Many thanks...
chorus7
One more question (hides) can you play samples chromaticly?
tokidoki
First, our english is weird but we are from Outland.
We love the Toraiz SP16, this sampler-sequencer is not the deepest and the most exotic piece of hardware we used but everything we hoped to do reading the specs in April we do in September.
Now you can't sequence external gear, but this essential update will be ready for the MIDI IN in 2016 and for the MIDI OUT in 2017.
We need this update, we wait for this update. Using only the SP16 for sampling phrases coming from our synths and modulars, we can learn the instrument before to reach the moment when, updated, it will become the centerpiece of our live ring. The MIDI sync is already perfect.
You have 8 Gigas of memory but now, we hope it will change, your samples have to be 32 seconds max. It's a limitation, we work with it.
Not many effects, updates announced for 2016 and 2017.
With the 8 audio outputs of the Toraiz we can wait. The reverb is good, but we use a SPACE and a BIG SKY for this effect.
You can play samples chromatically now, but only one octave up.
This will be updated in 2017.
chorus7
tokidoki thank you so much for your answers thumbs up it really helps to know these things... I'm not so sure I want to invest $1500 with the hope of future fixes very frustrating I've done this before and was burned... Too bad about the external sequencing and the 32 second limitation... I wonder why they have the limitation on that?

Thanks again for you answers...
Badwhite
This looks cool-ish.... but... I'd maybe still rather have an MPC???
Mr. Roboto
chorus7 wrote:
tokidoki thank you so much for your answers thumbs up it really helps to know these things... I'm not so sure I want to invest $1500 with the hope of future fixes very frustrating I've done this before and was burned... Too bad about the external sequencing and the 32 second limitation... I wonder why they have the limitation on that?

Thanks again for you answers...


The 32 seconds limitation is easy to explain. 32 seconds and a maximum of 4 bars will result in a BPM value of 30. This (and sometimes 40) is the lowest bpm value for most drummachines, grooveboxes and sequencers.
DiscoDevil
Got mine yesterday. Only played with it for a short time so I don't have enough info to offer a full review BUT I have some thoughts on it.

It's very basic feature wise. This is a GOOD thing for me but anyone wanting to replace their MPC or Octatrack completely should look elsewhere.

It's much bigger than I expected and it's by far the ugliest piece of kit in my studio. The different colored lights for the steps and pads are extremely useful but gross to look at. I have poor vision so the large screen and lights are very much appreciated as I generally have to hunch over a box to see the screen and end up feeling trapped because I can't look away from the screen or I won't have any idea what is going on inside the box. This has enough other sources of feedback that you can tell what it's doing just by looking at the pads, buttons and blinking lights. Important for me, much less for someone else, I'd guess.

Sound quality so far is great. The filter is very usable. Loading up sounds and creating sequences is a breeze. Haven't had to crack the manual yet because everything is very intuitively laid out and the basic functionality is obvious. Pads feel nice as do all of the other buttons and controls. Seems like a quality build overall.

I'm sure the more I use it, the more I will find to complain about but all I really need it to do is playback my prerecorded loops in sync with midi clock and let me remix my tracks on the fly without having to take a refresher course every time I want to make music.

It's too expensive for what it does right now. I'm sure the touchscreen, built in storage, analog filter, etc all add to the cost but I think a price of like $1000 is more realistic for it as it is. If they turn it in to a full blown midi sequencer and add a bunch of other features, it might be worth the asking price.
CF3
DiscoDevil wrote:
It's very basic feature wise.


This was my assessment after downloading and reading thru the entire manual. I definitely understand the need to keep it streamlined for performance, but feature wise it is indeed pretty basic. I'm legitimately puzzled by the limited track count? Why not 4 banks of 16 tracks (pads/samples)? Processing power is not an issue in 2016. I couldn't see it adding much if any cost (MPC60 could do this in 1988). More pad banks would also make slicing (chopping) a lot better, as it would give you finer resolution. Maybe this a future update?

Still, I applaude Pioneer for doing this. It looks to be very well built and thought out generally. For performing live it could be really cool.
DiscoDevil
CF3 wrote:
DiscoDevil wrote:
It's very basic feature wise.


This was my assessment after downloading and reading thru the entire manual. I definitely understand the need to keep it streamlined for performance, but feature wise it is indeed pretty basic. I'm legitimately puzzled by the limited track count? Why not 4 banks of 16 tracks (pads/samples)? Processing power is not an issue in 2016. I couldn't see it adding much if any cost (MPC60 could do this in 1988). More pad banks would also make slicing (chopping) a lot better, as it would give you finer resolution. Maybe this a future update?

Still, I applaude Pioneer for doing this. It looks to be very well built and thought out generally. For performing live it could be really cool.


You can just bring up another scene if you need more tracks, I guess? Not sure. It does seem like there are some things that should be there that aren't. The ability to stream tracks off the internal memory or USB, live sampling/looping, midi tracks, etc. I know some are coming in future updates.
orz
The 32 second limit isn't that strange when you think about it.
If it does not stream from media, it needs to store samples in RAM.

It plays 24 bit 44.1khz, right? 32 seconds of 24 bit stereo audio in 44.1khz sample rate times 16 is just below 1GB of data. One could assume that the RAM is 1GB.
Pretty reasonable when you think about it. (And quite beefy RAM for music hardware!)

However, the omission of a streaming playback feature is a bit surprising, given how there was talk about "16 CDJs in one". It could however be due to time constraints - such a feature is by far no simple task to implement.
Or, it could be that they did not want to compete with their line of CDJs, and hope that those who buy a Toraiz is either already a customer, or will want to get into their CDJs as well. Pure speculation, but not completely out there.
DiscoDevil
I believe it has 8GB of ram and 8GB of internal storage. It has plenty of ram to store and work with samples so it's gotta be some artificial limitation they've put on it.
chorus7
DiscoDevil thanks for the info thumbs up ...

As far as sample mangling what can you do? Start/end control? Pitch? How extreme can the pitch be? Can you cut and paste? Any overdubbing? Looper? Can each track have seperate lengths for making polyrhythms? Can you add filters via effects to each seperate track?

How good/bad is the touch screen? I read that it wasn't very sensitive and was a pain to use? Any truth in that?

I'm basically hoping this would be more like Samplr for iPad

Many thanks...
hadj
tokidoki wrote:
Working since one week with this great instrument. The sound is big, the sequencer needs updates but is already usable with some smart details. MIDI sync is perfect, sampling and storage are easy. All the functions are quickly found and the use of colored tracks is pleasant. For us it's the standalone sampling-sequencer we hoped some manufacturer would create one day. We only ask for a complete MIDI sequencer and are sure that Pioneer will quickly add this update to the SP-16.


Have you used the midi sync into a midi-to-cv module? I'd like to know if it sends Start, Stop and Reset messages please.
orz
DiscoDevil wrote:
I believe it has 8GB of ram and 8GB of internal storage. It has plenty of ram to store and work with samples so it's gotta be some artificial limitation they've put on it.


Hmm, I can't seem to find any info about the RAM in the manual. 8GB flash memory is however listed in there. 8GB RAM sounds like a lot for this kind of device though. Where did you read that?
hadj
How does the USB drive work then? Can you put your sample library on there (say 128gb) and load off of that? Seems you can browse the drive contents but the manual is a bit vague on it.
DiscoDevil
orz wrote:
DiscoDevil wrote:
I believe it has 8GB of ram and 8GB of internal storage. It has plenty of ram to store and work with samples so it's gotta be some artificial limitation they've put on it.


Hmm, I can't seem to find any info about the RAM in the manual. 8GB flash memory is however listed in there. 8GB RAM sounds like a lot for this kind of device though. Where did you read that?


It was in the initial videos they releases with Dave Smith.
DiscoDevil
hadj wrote:
How does the USB drive work then? Can you put your sample library on there (say 128gb) and load off of that? Seems you can browse the drive contents but the manual is a bit vague on it.


Yes. The USB device shows up in the browser. It has to be formatted FAT32 which I believe limits the volume size to 32Gb unless you find a way to format it via Win98 which would allow 128Gb.
hadj
DiscoDevil wrote:
hadj wrote:
How does the USB drive work then? Can you put your sample library on there (say 128gb) and load off of that? Seems you can browse the drive contents but the manual is a bit vague on it.


Yes. The USB device shows up in the browser. It has to be formatted FAT32 which I believe limits the volume size to 32Gb unless you find a way to format it via Win98 which would allow 128Gb.


That's a bummer, I only have access to OSX. No way around that then I guess?

Also, anyone know about wether the midi sync delivers start/stop/reset controls?
DiscoDevil
chorus7 wrote:
DiscoDevil thanks for the info thumbs up ...

As far as sample mangling what can you do? Start/end control? Pitch? How extreme can the pitch be? Can you cut and paste? Any overdubbing? Looper? Can each track have seperate lengths for making polyrhythms? Can you add filters via effects to each seperate track?

How good/bad is the touch screen? I read that it wasn't very sensitive and was a pain to use? Any truth in that?

I'm basically hoping this would be more like Samplr for iPad

Many thanks...


No cut/paste that I could find nor overdub but yes to everything else. Sample mangling is pretty minimal. You can add modulation per step and yes, *EDIT*(each track can be a different length.) This is not true.*EDIT* The touch screen is slightly sluggish but I believe that's by design to keep it more usable in a live environment where accidentally brushing the wrong thing could ruin the performance.
DiscoDevil
hadj wrote:
DiscoDevil wrote:
hadj wrote:
How does the USB drive work then? Can you put your sample library on there (say 128gb) and load off of that? Seems you can browse the drive contents but the manual is a bit vague on it.


Yes. The USB device shows up in the browser. It has to be formatted FAT32 which I believe limits the volume size to 32Gb unless you find a way to format it via Win98 which would allow 128Gb.


That's a bummer, I only have access to OSX. No way around that then I guess?

Also, anyone know about wether the midi sync delivers start/stop/reset controls?


I haven't used the midi out yet. The limitation on volume size is standard across all FAT32 Usb removable drives so it's not just Pioneer.
hadj
DiscoDevil wrote:
hadj wrote:
DiscoDevil wrote:
hadj wrote:
How does the USB drive work then? Can you put your sample library on there (say 128gb) and load off of that? Seems you can browse the drive contents but the manual is a bit vague on it.


Yes. The USB device shows up in the browser. It has to be formatted FAT32 which I believe limits the volume size to 32Gb unless you find a way to format it via Win98 which would allow 128Gb.


That's a bummer, I only have access to OSX. No way around that then I guess?

Also, anyone know about wether the midi sync delivers start/stop/reset controls?


I haven't used the midi out yet. The limitation on volume size is standard across all FAT32 Usb removable drives so it's not just Pioneer.


I just read that you can format larger drives, up to 2TB on OSX. Will be interesting to see if the Pioneer reads that but seems others have been able to use bigger drives on Windows machines after formatting them to FAT32 on a mac.
tokidoki
We wrote that MIDI sync was perfect. It was a bit light. It is perfect when the Toraiz is controlled by another sequencer. That's the way we use it now. So we have made a test just one minute ago to answer your question and it seems that the MIDI out doesn't have control on our Vermona MIDI - CV, gates and clock interfaces. No control to our hardware sequencers too. Sorry, MIDI sync seems perfect only with inputs. Toraiz, good slave, but dead master. We need updates.
DiscoDevil
hadj wrote:
DiscoDevil wrote:
hadj wrote:
DiscoDevil wrote:
hadj wrote:
How does the USB drive work then? Can you put your sample library on there (say 128gb) and load off of that? Seems you can browse the drive contents but the manual is a bit vague on it.


Yes. The USB device shows up in the browser. It has to be formatted FAT32 which I believe limits the volume size to 32Gb unless you find a way to format it via Win98 which would allow 128Gb.


That's a bummer, I only have access to OSX. No way around that then I guess?

Also, anyone know about wether the midi sync delivers start/stop/reset controls?


I haven't used the midi out yet. The limitation on volume size is standard across all FAT32 Usb removable drives so it's not just Pioneer.


I just read that you can format larger drives, up to 2TB on OSX. Will be interesting to see if the Pioneer reads that but seems others have been able to use bigger drives on Windows machines after formatting them to FAT32 on a mac.


You can on a pc as well but I'm not sure the pioneer can address anything over 32gb. I will try and see.
DiscoDevil
32GB is the biggest USB I have.
hadj
DiscoDevil wrote:
32GB is the biggest USB I have.


Thanks for the offer mate. The real bummer for me is the news that there is no MIDI master on it. That's absolutely NUTS! How can something so simple and obvious for such a piece of kit, be left out?

I'm gutted about that, I want it to clock the modular. I'll have to wait and see if/when Pioneer update the firmware. And this is in interesting point for me, are Pioneer serious about updates to this thing? There are only 4 effects on a track, will they add more? Slicing only works on a grid, not to transients. A couple of things that, if addressed through updates, would indicate to me that Pioneer are serious about going into the production world, and not just dipping a toe in to see how warm the water is smile
DiscoDevil
hadj wrote:
DiscoDevil wrote:
32GB is the biggest USB I have.


Thanks for the offer mate. The real bummer for me is the news that there is no MIDI master on it. That's absolutely NUTS! How can something so simple and obvious for such a piece of kit, be left out?

I'm gutted about that, I want it to clock the modular. I'll have to wait and see if/when Pioneer update the firmware. And this is in interesting point for me, are Pioneer serious about updates to this thing? There are only 4 effects on a track, will they add more? Slicing only works on a grid, not to transients. A couple of things that, if addressed through updates, would indicate to me that Pioneer are serious about going into the production world, and not just dipping a toe in to see how warm the water is smile


Only clock works on the midi in and out right now, I think. Yes, they have a road map for updates in to 2017. Midi note/cc in and out are coming, many more effects, fully featured slicing, etc are all scheduled via two updates. One in the next month or two and another beginning of year 2017.
DiscoDevil
http://faq.pioneerdj.com/product.php?c=25&lang=en&p=TORAIZ_SP-16&t=faq

That's their road map.
hadj
Thanks for the road map mate, looks really good. Great to see they are going to add FX and more slicing features. I wonder if the LFO will be assignable, I'm guessing so.

I see it doesn't say much about Midi sync though, but you mention that it does send a clock out via midi. There's a post a little further up this page which states it doesn't send anything out though. If you have a chance to test it with a Midi to CV module could you let me know? I'm not interested in notes out, just clock and ideally, transport control so when you start stop the Toraiz, it starts and stops the CV clock. Reset on start would be the icing on the cake.
tokidoki
New test for the Toraiz MIDI sync out. It works. Start, stop and reset.
Sorry for the first message.
The start, stop and reset functions are OK with Vermona qMI and qMI v2.
Start, stop and reset OK for Z8000, Moskwa, Pittsburgh sequencer, Grids, Zularic, everything works perfectly.
hadj
tokidoki wrote:
New test for Toraiz MIDI sync out. It works. Start, stop and reset.



Sweeeeeeeeet! cool

Thanks of letting me know, I'm going to get one this week for sure!
Villarceau
I will be waiting until they fully upgrade the midi capabilities before making any kind of decision. Some choice of scales for the pads would be great too.

Can it also record unquantized sequences through the pads?
chorus7
Sorry just wanted to ask again...

As far as sample mangling what can you do? Start/end control? Pitch? How extreme can the pitch be? Can you cut and paste? Any overdubbing? Looper? Can each track have seperate lengths for making polyrhythms? Can you add filters via effects to each seperate track?

How good/bad is the touch screen? I read that it wasn't very sensitive and was a pain to use? Any truth in that?

Sorry for all the questions (hides) I wish I lived closer to a big city so I could just go try one out...
Aaron2
I've owned mine for less than a week, but I think I can answer most of your questions:

chorus7 wrote:
Sorry just wanted to ask again...

As far as sample mangling what can you do? Start/end control? [Yes.] Pitch? [Yes.] How extreme can the pitch be? [+ or - 1 octave] Can you cut and paste? [You can cut and paste patterns, yes.] Any overdubbing? [Not sure what you mean.] Looper? [Can you clarify?] Can each track have seperate lengths for making polyrhythms? [I'll have to check. I know you can change the pattern length from 8-64 steps, but I'm not sure you can do it on a per-track basis.] Can you add filters via effects to each seperate track? [Yes.]

How good/bad is the touch screen? I read that it wasn't very sensitive and was a pain to use? Any truth in that? [The touch screen is spectacular. Works great all the time, every time. I wouldn't change a thing.]

Sorry for all the questions (hides) I wish I lived closer to a big city so I could just go try one out...[I bought mine based on YouTube vids and online reviews, and I love it. If you're on the fence about it, just get it!]


And I have no idea what people were saying about the Toraiz's MIDI-sync out capabilities. It works great. I used it to start and stop my Octatrack, which was in turn sequencing a Korg ARP Odyssey. It worked flawlessly.
Aaron2
DiscoDevil wrote:
http://faq.pioneerdj.com/product.php?c=25&lang=en&p=TORAIZ_SP-16&t=faq

That's their road map.


Once this thing can MIDI-sequence outboard gear, it'll be a nearly perfect piece of kit -- I may just dump my Octatrack! I'd also like to be able to play scales on the pads, but it looks like that's coming, too. Pioneer has really nailed this one!
tokidoki
[quote="Aaron2"]

And I have no idea what people were saying about the Toraiz's MIDI-sync out capabilities.

---------------------------------------------------------

It was only a corrected processus mistake. MIDI in-out are now perfect with all our sequencers.

The Toraiz is at the moment a fantastic sampler-sequencer.
In the future if Pioneer add the announced updates it will become one of the best all-in-one standalone workstation we ever used.
If we need to suggest new fonctions we could perhaps send messages to the US support services.

Support@pioneer-usa.com

Being from Outland our english is far from excellent so if somebody could help making a global list of reasonable technical propositions we would be happy to contribute.
Funky40
some people here seem to have both: Octatrack and Toraiz.
I´m interested to hear:

are you doing the same music on both, for exmaple porting livesets from octatrack over to Toraiz ?
more important: if you begin a new work, "could" or "would" you go on both machines into the same direction
.......or is the way they inspire you so different that you would come up with something totally different anyway, octa vs. Toraiz ?

in regards to sample start lenght sequenzing/p-locking:
whats the resolution on the toraiz, 128 steps ? only coarse, no additional fine ?
DiscoDevil
Funky40 wrote:
some people here seem to have both: Octatrack and Toraiz.
I´m interested to hear:

are you doing the same music on both, for exmaple porting livesets from octatrack over to Toraiz ?
more important: if you begin a new work, "could" or "would" you go on both machines into the same direction
.......or is the way they inspire you so different that you would come up with something totally different anyway, octa vs. Toraiz ?

in regards to sample start lenght sequenzing/p-locking:
whats the resolution on the toraiz, 128 steps ? only coarse, no additional fine ?


I haven't owned it long enough to use it to "create" music. It's not a music creation tool like the Octatrack is to me. It's more of a performance tool and a way for me to get my prerecorded content in to an easy to use box for playback with some effects, etc. I'm sure you can make music on it but that's not what I purchased it for. The Octatrack will run circles around it for sample manipulation and creative mangling.
tokidoki
Funky40 wrote:
some people here seem to have both: Octatrack and Toraiz.
I´m interested to hear:

are you doing the same music on both, for exmaple porting livesets from octatrack over to Toraiz ?
more important: if you begin a new work, "could" or "would" you go on both machines into the same direction
.......or is the way they inspire you so different that you would come up with something totally different anyway, octa vs. Toraiz ?

in regards to sample start lenght sequenzing/p-locking:
whats the resolution on the toraiz, 128 steps ? only coarse, no additional fine ?


Impossible to compare now. Without MIDI notes in-out function, for us the Toraiz is particularly good at preparing live sets with sequences coming from external gear. Now we can sample from our modular and synths, in sync, complete sequences composed on a RM1x. Then we can mix on the Toraiz sequencer these external sequences and some new elements. Playing with Mute, Scenes and Patterns we could prepare complete sets without being limited by the 32 seconds limit. For the music and the flow we like, the Octatrack was too complicated. Rich but annoying. With MIDI notes function the Toraiz will be the perfect instrument for our musical project.
tokidoki
Funky40 wrote:
some people here seem to have both: Octatrack and Toraiz.
I´m interested to hear:



in regards to sample start lenght sequenzing/p-locking:
whats the resolution on the toraiz, 128 steps ? only coarse, no additional fine ?



hope we talk about the same things...

in max zoom mode the start of a sample can be modified with an incremantation of 3 steps

in the note and parameter locking there are 47 steps between two
steps of the 16 steps sequencer
Aaron2
DiscoDevil wrote:
Funky40 wrote:
some people here seem to have both: Octatrack and Toraiz.
I´m interested to hear:

are you doing the same music on both, for exmaple porting livesets from octatrack over to Toraiz ?
more important: if you begin a new work, "could" or "would" you go on both machines into the same direction
.......or is the way they inspire you so different that you would come up with something totally different anyway, octa vs. Toraiz ?

in regards to sample start lenght sequenzing/p-locking:
whats the resolution on the toraiz, 128 steps ? only coarse, no additional fine ?


I haven't owned it long enough to use it to "create" music. It's not a music creation tool like the Octatrack is to me. It's more of a performance tool and a way for me to get my prerecorded content in to an easy to use box for playback with some effects, etc. I'm sure you can make music on it but that's not what I purchased it for. The Octatrack will run circles around it for sample manipulation and creative mangling.


I think the Toraiz will find a different use for everyone who owns one. There's no "right" or "wrong" way to use it. It's a tool, like any other piece of gear.

My favorite use thus far is to sample bits of other kit that you like into it -- say a four-bar synth loop. That way, you've already got it in the Toraiz, which eliminates the need for the external gear, at least for that track. Now you can use the sampled synth in your track and never have to think about the synth again. It's freeing, really, to have all of your sounds right there in one, neat box.
DiscoDevil
Aaron2 wrote:
My favorite use thus far is to sample bits of other kit that you like into it -- say a four-bar synth loop. That way, you've already got it in the Toraiz, which eliminates the need for the external gear, at least for that track. Now you can use the sampled synth in your track and never have to think about the synth again. It's freeing, really, to have all of your sounds right there in one, neat box.



That's my use for it as well. I can take all of the recorded loops from my current arrangements in Ableton and arrange them on the Toraiz. I can play my songs with added percussion, etc without having to carry out all of the synths and drum machine. Live set could be the Toraiz, sequencer (until they add midi out to Toraiz) 1 drum machine, 1 or 2 synths, some effects and a mixer. Yes, this was all possible before with the MPC and Octatrack but not with such a streamlined UI and workflow.
Barfunkel
I was a bit anti-Toraiz, but the more I read about it the more I think I like it. If they add polyphonic MIDI sequencing and the FX are good, I might have to put it on my shopping list!
DiscoDevil
Barfunkel wrote:
I was a bit anti-Toraiz, but the more I read about it the more I think I like it. If they add polyphonic MIDI sequencing and the FX are good, I might have to put it on my shopping list!


I can say that I HATE Pioneer, I think this device is over priced and it's ugly. Aside from those things though, I love it.
darenager
DiscoDevil wrote:
Aaron2 wrote:
My favorite use thus far is to sample bits of other kit that you like into it -- say a four-bar synth loop. That way, you've already got it in the Toraiz, which eliminates the need for the external gear, at least for that track. Now you can use the sampled synth in your track and never have to think about the synth again. It's freeing, really, to have all of your sounds right there in one, neat box.



That's my use for it as well. I can take all of the recorded loops from my current arrangements in Ableton and arrange them on the Toraiz. I can play my songs with added percussion, etc without having to carry out all of the synths and drum machine. Live set could be the Toraiz, sequencer (until they add midi out to Toraiz) 1 drum machine, 1 or 2 synths, some effects and a mixer. Yes, this was all possible before with the MPC and Octatrack but not with such a streamlined UI and workflow.


This exactly is what interests me about the Toraiz too, I don't think the Octatrack and the Toraiz are equivalent, although with a few OS tweaks to either then maybe. But that whole streamlined UI of the Toraiz looks fantastic, And really given that the technology to do this (at affordable pricing) has been around for at least 5 years I am surprised no other company thought to do it, so props to Pioneer, I hope they do well with it.
Aaron2
DiscoDevil wrote:
Aaron2 wrote:
My favorite use thus far is to sample bits of other kit that you like into it -- say a four-bar synth loop. That way, you've already got it in the Toraiz, which eliminates the need for the external gear, at least for that track. Now you can use the sampled synth in your track and never have to think about the synth again. It's freeing, really, to have all of your sounds right there in one, neat box.



That's my use for it as well. I can take all of the recorded loops from my current arrangements in Ableton and arrange them on the Toraiz. I can play my songs with added percussion, etc without having to carry out all of the synths and drum machine. Live set could be the Toraiz, sequencer (until they add midi out to Toraiz) 1 drum machine, 1 or 2 synths, some effects and a mixer. Yes, this was all possible before with the MPC and Octatrack but not with such a streamlined UI and workflow.


Hmmm, I hadn't thought about exporting some previously recorded Ableton loops. Great tip! applause
escargot
has anyone with the machine been able to sample on the fly while a sequence running- record 1 to 4 bars loop live- next run what you have recorded is part of the sequence?

my other query is about resampling, is it implemented or planned in a future OS?
dadek
DiscoDevil wrote:

I can say that I HATE Pioneer, I think this device is over priced and it's ugly. Aside from those things though, I love it.


Exactly this, despite the ugly rainbow, it's already become a central part of my workflow. Won't be going anywhere soon...
Funky40
Thanks for the fedback !
Smokey
This kinda makes me want to get a Vermona Action Filter 3 to stick after my Octatrack.

I had a P08 but really didn't like the filter... I wonder if the Toraiz filter is any different.
Prints
Smokey wrote:

I had a P08 but really didn't like the filter... I wonder if the Toraiz filter is any different.


uh.. yeah
Are you even paying attention?
Smokey
Prints wrote:
Smokey wrote:

I had a P08 but really didn't like the filter... I wonder if the Toraiz filter is any different.


uh.. yeah
Are you even paying attention?



uh.. yeah not really, the glare from the Toraiz is hurting my eyes
Prints
Smokey wrote:
Prints wrote:
Smokey wrote:

I had a P08 but really didn't like the filter... I wonder if the Toraiz filter is any different.


uh.. yeah
Are you even paying attention?



uh.. yeah not really, the glare from the Toraiz is hurting my eyes


It's not for you then. That was pretty simple.
Smokey
Oh but it IS for me. This entire reality is just a uninterrupted process of my imagination. EVERYTHING IS FOR ME.

Anyway, now I know that these are based Prophet-06 filters and not Prophet-08 filters.

The MSN Smack!
Prints


I'm starting to understand why it's been so annoying sharing my positive experiences with the Toraiz on the various forums I've bothered to. People, for the most part, are too dense to deal with. I feel like I'm dealing with a bunch of people with psychological problems that constantly need reassurance. People don't even know why they form the opinions they do.
Smokey
Perhaps you should f u instead of make inferences about people's psychological problems. That is not cool to do here.

Please don't reply to me, this isn't about the Toraiz and I am too dense to deal with.

But now I know what filters are used w00t
Prints
To address the lights for others who can't seem to get over the concept. Yes, many different colors together do create a rainbow. But many colors are great to use in conjunction with one another when labeling and organizing things. The logic that Pioneer has developed for this machine makes so much sense to me.
DiscoDevil
Yeah, if the colors were just for show, I couldn't handle it but it makes so much sense in my studio since I already use color coded cables for patch bays. Blue = Kick drum, Red = Snare, etc this is just an extension of the system I am already familiar with. At a glance I can tell that kick, snare, toms, etc are enabled in the sequence and what track they are on. It's pretty damn great not having to stare at the screen to visualize what is happening in a pattern.
rockreid
For crying out loud for those concerned about a rainbow pad light show simply turn each pad to a more neutral color like the off white selection. For those that like the maschine orange , there is an approximation of that. Monochrome can be yours.
iVardensphere
I can't, for the life of me, get my Toraiz to sync (incoming or outgoing) to anything else. I've adjusted all three settings available a few times. I've verified the cable and the other machines work with each other. Just.... ballz. very frustrating
poppinger
Edit: I shouldn't even bother. The flood of Gearslutz dicklords continues.
iVardensphere
poppinger wrote:
Edit: I shouldn't even bother. The flood of Gearslutz dicklords continues.


I love the machine. I just can't get it to sync. I think it's ok for me to say that, mate.
poppinger
Ha no problem. It was nothing to do with you.
DiscoDevil
iVardensphere wrote:
I can't, for the life of me, get my Toraiz to sync (incoming or outgoing) to anything else. I've adjusted all three settings available a few times. I've verified the cable and the other machines work with each other. Just.... ballz. very frustrating


What are you trying to sync it to?
h4ndcrafted
A few questions

Is the DS filter encoders or pots ? I ask bc I wondered whether you could automate it.

How easy is to resample with this thing ?

Did they update slice yet so you can set points?

Is there auto fade? Or do you have to be surgical with that zero crossing ? even if you are is there any sample looping , start - end point glitch ?

This could be a one stop shop for slicing and sequencing loops from my modular without turning on my computer, then export them for processing in live. What the Electribe sampler could have been maybe with some of its odd limitations.
chorus7
So how are people feeling about their Toraiz's having had them for a couple of weeks? Pros? Cons? Would love to hear some more reviews we're not worthy
Mirrorad
chorus7 wrote:
So how are people feeling about their Toraiz's having had them for a couple of weeks? Pros? Cons? Would love to hear some more reviews we're not worthy


This is my first sampler, and I've only had it for a week. The only thing I feel qualified to say is that even a noob like me can get started with using this instrument in just minutes. I was quickly alternating betwwen Track, Pitch, and Scale. I was quickly adjusting envelopes, reversing tracks, changing the slider modes, adjusting fx, rocking the filters, and mangling the sound within the first 10 minutes of powering up.

It is super user-friendly and intuitive so far.

There are some features I hope to see in the updates - stereo delay, assign reverse and tempo to one of the user modes on the slider, etc. But the forum admins at Pioneer DJ are very responsive and seem to be listening to customer requests cool
hadj
Mine arrives today and I'll let everyone know how it pans out for me too. Go to say though, Mirrorad's comments are all in line with what I've heard so far. And Pioneer seem really dedicated to building out the OS on this to do much more.
dubonaire
Mirrorad wrote:
The only thing I feel qualified to say is that even a noob like me can get started with using this instrument in just minutes. I was quickly alternating betwwen Track, Pitch, and Scale. I was quickly adjusting envelopes, reversing tracks, changing the slider modes, adjusting fx, rocking the filters, and mangling the sound within the first 10 minutes of powering up.


In my opinion this speaks bucketloads. I'm a very technically competent person but the Octatrack is ridiculously opaque. It's a total fail of an interface and then the sound is not great.
DiscoDevil
dubonaire wrote:
Mirrorad wrote:
The only thing I feel qualified to say is that even a noob like me can get started with using this instrument in just minutes. I was quickly alternating betwwen Track, Pitch, and Scale. I was quickly adjusting envelopes, reversing tracks, changing the slider modes, adjusting fx, rocking the filters, and mangling the sound within the first 10 minutes of powering up.


In my opinion this speaks bucketloads. I'm a very technically competent person but the Octatrack is ridiculously opaque. It's a total fail of an interface and then the sound is not great.


Agreed. While I finally did get fairly proficient with the Octa, it was never fun. I don't need extreme sample mangling and all of the other things it does. I just need a high quality way to play back my sampled loops and hits, in time with midi clock, with some basic performance controls and a solid UI. Unfortunate that it was Pioneer that stepped up but it does pretty much exactly what I need and is "fun".
hyena
well, i used many samplers in the past (especially mpc line and then maschine but also full fledged samplers , akai s-line , plus ableton, kontatk etc...) and now i'm on the octa. yes the interface is a bit of a mess when you start. yes, if you don't pay attention to gain staging and use it in 16 bit it sounds a bit meh, but if you get really proficient with it it can be a real dream machine. i'm starting to really love the thing and to be really satisfied of using it both live and in studio. can't speak of the toraiz (i'd like to give it a go though) but i think the deal with the octa is that you either eventually love it or hate it...(after having learned all of its idiosincrasies)
tokidoki
Great new board for updates.
MIDI notes IN and OUT are announced for this autumn instead of IN in autumn and OUT in spring.
DiscoDevil
With the MIDI out function, I wonder if they just mean the pads will send midi notes and the controls will send CC or are they adding a full blown midi sequencer?
tokidoki
Details :

https://www.pioneerdj.com/en/news/2016/planned-updates-to-toraiz-sp-16 -from-november-2016/
DiscoDevil
Some tasty updates coming!
kisielk
I had a play with one at the local music store today. Really awesome piece of kit! It took me no time at all to figure it out and get some cool loops going.
poppinger
I'm actually kind of surprised to see this much post-release support. Some really good features coming up too. I might have to try and hunt one down to mess around with a little bit.
Parametex
If the owners of Toraiz could shed a light to a question that has been on my mind:

I have been tempted to get the SP-16 and transfer my live show to it. I would not wish to haul it to live gigs but instead ask the promoter to provide me with one as per my backline rider.

So my question is this:

Would it be a easy feat to take my gig on a usb stick, load it into a SP-16 provided by the promoter and after the show erase my materials so my musical compositions don't end up with some random third party?
kisielk
I don't own one, but as far as I know you can just play your material directly from the USB, no need to copy.
kisielk
Dupe.
Parametex
kisielk wrote:
I don't own one, but as far as I know you can just play your material directly from the USB, no need to copy.


If this is the case I would be quite impressed.

So the onboard storage is with no extra advantages?
kisielk
Parametex wrote:
kisielk wrote:
I don't own one, but as far as I know you can just play your material directly from the USB, no need to copy.


If this is the case I would be quite impressed.

So the onboard storage is with no extra advantages?



I just checked the manual (which I downloaded to read over...) and it seems you can choose whether a project is saved to the external USB or onboard memory.

I guess the advantage of onboard is if you have your own unit then you don't need to have a USB sticking out of it smile
kisielk
I'm pretty keen to get one myself. I was really impressed at how easy it was to put material together and jam out on it. I'm probably going to wait to see what they add in the next couple of firmware updates first though.
dadek
I just did a live show using it. Played off project internally though. Would not be difficult to delete/wipe the samples/project. Very quick to load, I tend to mount on the laptop as USB drive for sample transfer and backup etc. as it's quicker than the USB sticks.

Really fantastic piece of kit. Simple, but great at what it does.
Parametex
Thanks for chiming in!

dadek wrote:
I tend to mount on the laptop as USB drive for sample transfer and backup etc. as it's quicker than the USB sticks.


This I was wondering: Why would this be so? Shitty USB stick?
dadek
Most likely... very frustrating
Parametex
dadek wrote:
Most likely... very frustrating


hihi It happens to the best of us ...
Liddlepud
Does anyone know if it's possible to rack mount the Toraiz? I've done a quick search on the net and looked in the manual but can't find anything.
DiscoDevil
Liddlepud wrote:
Does anyone know if it's possible to rack mount the Toraiz? I've done a quick search on the net and looked in the manual but can't find anything.


It's about the right size perhaps but there are no rack options available that I've seen.
Parametex
The new electribes were criticised to a degree of cutting of samples when changing patterns ... How does the SP-16 deal with this?
DiscoDevil
New v1.2 addendum added.

4 note polyphonic midi sequencer!!!
Flexible clockable LFO to modulate any parameter, per step!
More flexible effects routing and new effects!
Export tracks as wav files!
Lots more

https://www.pioneerdj.com/en/support/documents/toraiz%20sp-16/#manual
VanEck
DiscoDevil wrote:
New v1.2 addendum added.

4 note polyphonic midi sequencer!!!
Flexible clockable LFO to modulate any parameter, per step!
More flexible effects routing and new effects!
Export tracks as wav files!
Lots more

https://www.pioneerdj.com/en/support/documents/toraiz%20sp-16/#manual


good improvements here. i hope the update releases before the weekend so i can dig into it on my days off.
DiscoDevil
1.2 is out!
VanEck
dug through that manual but might have missed this... is there any possible way to disable the pads from triggering the track samples?

i want to be able to punch the pad to use with the slider for live effects, but when i try to do that it always triggers the sample of that track. i already have them being triggered via the sequencer.
DiscoDevil
VanEck wrote:
dug through that manual but might have missed this... is there any possible way to disable the pads from triggering the track samples?

i want to be able to punch the pad to use with the slider for live effects, but when i try to do that it always triggers the sample of that track. i already have them being triggered via the sequencer.


I believe there is. I will report back when I'm in front of it.
VanEck
think i'm experiencing a bug withe the new OS. can't seem to enter "track" mode. pushing the track mode button doesn't do anything now, and i can't use any of the functionality as before like changing the color of a pad.

anyone else experiencing this?
Mirrorad
Hey guys, my 11-month old keeps me from spending any QT with my Toraiz. So before I start tinkering with recording samples through the input, can anyone answer this question - ?

Can I currently (v1.2) hear a click or kick track at the BPM of the scene while I record the sample? Or is this what is meant by "sample on the fly" in the next update?
Yloopz
Mirrorad wrote:


Can I currently (v1.2) hear a click or kick track at the BPM of the scene while I record the sample? Or is this what is meant by "sample on the fly" in the next update?


If you mean looping, it will be in the next update. You can sample on the fly but it is not playing back right away.

I would love to see some kind of 'events' implemented. Like reverb send of multiple tracks at once or just one track. Or reverse multiple tracks, like in the octatrack using scenes... Also some more routing options, using more than one effect on one track and a reverb as track effect not only send.

I bought the Toraiz because I needed more tracks for my upcoming live sets (instead of the 8 on the Octatrack) And I like the effects more on the Toraiz. Maybe I take the octatrack with me so I can manipulate the incoming audio...
DiscoDevil
VanEck wrote:
dug through that manual but might have missed this... is there any possible way to disable the pads from triggering the track samples?

i want to be able to punch the pad to use with the slider for live effects, but when i try to do that it always triggers the sample of that track. i already have them being triggered via the sequencer.



You select the track with the touch screen instead of the pad to avoid triggering it.
deltaphoenix
I just broke down and ordered one...excited and nervous.
chorus7
deltaphoenix Nice! If you need some pointers shoot me a PM... Welcome aboard...
dan_p
Can it play samples free run when looped? so sample would just play whatever length it is then loop or do all samples need to be looped to the grid.
DiscoDevil
dan_p wrote:
Can it play samples free run when looped? so sample would just play whatever length it is then loop or do all samples need to be looped to the grid.


No. Everything is currently tied to the sequencer so 4bars is actually your limit. You'll likely reach that before the 32 second limitation.
deltaphoenix
So, I just got mine today.

It is very easy to build some beats with the samples inside. I didn't go super deep but I did build a few patterns. I look forward to getting some of my own sounds in there.

So far, I am very much reminded of working in Maschine by the Toraiz. I like that it seems sturdy. It is a bit bigger than I thought it would be.
DiscoDevil
Toraiz jam session.

https://www.facebook.com/DiscoDevils/videos/10154652813436013/
dan_p
I accidentally bought one, I was near a shop that sold them and went in for a quick play, after half an hour I just thought buy the thing. Its actually quite a lot of fun and really simple to use. They've done a very good job on the UI. Its a shame the sequencer is a bit basic though, hopefully they will update it. Different length tracks is an absolute must and per step probability would be nice..... you never know.

Anyway, in answer to my own question ref free running of samples, I worked out that it can actually be done.

In the home screen select loop ON for the track you want to free loop then make sure the amp envelope hold is set to Infinite press the pad and it loops away. To stop the loop either hit stop, go figure LOL, or if you don't want t stop everything just hold shift and push the pad that you looped.

DiscoDevil wrote:
dan_p wrote:
Can it play samples free run when looped? so sample would just play whatever length it is then loop or do all samples need to be looped to the grid.


No. Everything is currently tied to the sequencer so 4bars is actually your limit. You'll likely reach that before the 32 second limitation.


DiscoDevil wrote:
Toraiz jam session.

https://www.facebook.com/DiscoDevils/videos/10154652813436013/


Do you have another link? I'm not a Facebooker.
deltaphoenix
Awesome! I felt like I accidentally bought mine even though I got it online lol

Nice discover on the free running sample method.

I agree that the sequencer could use a little more work but I do have that those changes happen.
AdamJay
So what's the verdict on the SP-16 from those who have been using them for a while now?
DiscoDevil
AdamJay wrote:
So what's the verdict on the SP-16 from those who have been using them for a while now?



<3
DiscoDevil
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S6qrZV3Kh-I

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wXwRYfVFn6c
VanEck
AdamJay wrote:
So what's the verdict on the SP-16 from those who have been using them for a while now?


i like it a lot. thanks to the sp-16, i was able to do a stretch of shows last month without needing to bring a laptop. just the sp-16 and a rack of modular. i've been looking for the right piece of hardware that would liberate me from the computer for live performance for a long time now, and the sp-16 does the job better than anything else i've tried previously.

it is by no means perfect. it's a box that has some limitations, a couple that i find frustrating. but unlike other devices i've tried like say the octatrack, i was able to wrap my head around it quickly and work within it's limitations to do what i want to do for the most part.
lorenzovektor
meh, Pioneer should stick to cd players, mixers and dj controllers.

Pioneer is just using it's name to get more money out of bedroom producers/dj's
DiscoDevil
lorenzovektor wrote:
meh, Pioneer should stick to cd players, mixers and dj controllers.

Pioneer is just using it's name to get more money out of bedroom producers/dj's


I hate Pioneer but love the SP-16. It's a game changer for me. Anyone who dismisses it without spending some time with it is making a mistake, IMO. It has plenty of issues but more than makes up for them with its UI, features and most of all, the sound quality.
VanEck
lorenzovektor wrote:
meh, Pioneer should stick to cd players, mixers and dj controllers.

Pioneer is just using it's name to get more money out of bedroom producers/dj's


yeah, and brands like yamaha and roland should just stick to making e-pianos instead of trying to innovate and make electronic music products just to appeal to bedroom producers. this whole "synthesizer" fad will never catch on.
AdamJay
Real world reviews. Wonderful.
DiscoDevil and VanEck, thanks for the signal, amidst all this noise.
deltaphoenix
I enjoy it, UI is a breeze and it does sound really good.

I think it needs a few more features that are not on the current roadmap.

I am not 100% sure but I may jump ship for an Akai MPC Live because it has the features that I think are missing.
h4ndcrafted
That was going to be my question to owners, would you go for the Live now ?

I'm guessing a lot would, but pioneer do know how to make things usable in a live situation.

The Live has four different types of timestretching, not that I'm that interested in that side of it tbh, I want it for midi seq and a drum/phrase box.

Does the Pioneer have different stretch algorithms and who's behind them ? From what I understand the Live has the same algorithms as Ableton, well at least four of them.
DiscoDevil
h4ndcrafted wrote:
That was going to be my question to owners, would you go for the Live now ?

I'm guessing a lot would, but pioneer do know how to make things usable in a live situation.

The Live has four different types of timestretching, not that I'm that interested in that side of it tbh, I want it for midi seq and a drum/phrase box.

Does the Pioneer have different stretch algorithms and who's behind them ? From what I understand the Live has the same algorithms as Ableton, well at least four of them.


It must have at least 2. It changes how it stretches based on whether the sample is a loop and whether it needs pitch correction or not. Those are your only choices right now, unfortunately. There are some loops I've created that are unusable in it which is frustrating but overall, it does a decent job.

No, I would not trade for the MPC. I've owned many MPCs over the years and while I can't deny the power and utility of them, they are not fun to use for me. The Pioneer serves the exact purpose I need a sampler for and doesn't do 1,000 other things I have no use for. I don't need it to be the main hub in my studio like an MPC, I need it to be easy to use, sound great and most importantly, play back the material I prepare ahead of time in a fun and musical way. I wish it was not so expensive but for what I need, it's a miracle box. It's allowed me to take years worth of projects both finished and unfinished and "DJ" with them basically, remixing and arranging on the fly. It's as easy as opening up a project in Ableton, dragging loops on to a USB stick, loading them up in the SP-16 and jamming. The whole process takes less than 30 minutes and nearly everything I do with them sounds great. Amazing piece of hardware.
VanEck
h4ndcrafted wrote:
That was going to be my question to owners, would you go for the Live now ?

I'm guessing a lot would, but pioneer do know how to make things usable in a live situation.

The Live has four different types of timestretching, not that I'm that interested in that side of it tbh, I want it for midi seq and a drum/phrase box.

Does the Pioneer have different stretch algorithms and who's behind them ? From what I understand the Live has the same algorithms as Ableton, well at least four of them.


Me personally, I wont be swapping for live. I feel like the live box has too much going on and would be distracting to me. It's trying to be a full blown daw in a box, and goes beyond what I need out of a performance machine. It also ties in with the mpc software, and ableton, neither of which I use in the studio, so I would get no benefit from that. I feel like the live would be good as a mobile studio tool, but not what I need.

Currently the sp-16 has only 2 different types of time stretching modes to use. Not sure what they compare to.
dan_p
I"m really enjoying the SP-16 and I'm glad I went for it. I won't be swapping it for an MPC, I don't want a full on production studio, I just want a playable sampler thats easy to use and sounds good. Its so easy and enjoyable to use. Right now there are a couple of things missing and a couple of tweaks required but its close enough and the noise from Pioneer is sounding right. It sounds very good and the input takes a hot signal straight from the Modular without needing any attenuation, in fact I actually need to add a tiny bit of gain to get it close to the peak (The SP16 has a gain knob next to the input). I would definitely recommend the SP-16
h4ndcrafted
Thanks, that's interesting. I guess it comes down to how much production you intend to do in the 2.0 software.

You can't beat computers for prep work, so I'll have to make sure I like the 2.0 software as that could make it really painless as they seem to be working, or at least prioritising rendering / bouncing stuff to the Live as easily as possible.

If not the Pioneer seems the better performance tool for loops.

The battery option is swinging it for at the moment too. It's great companies are updating samplers though, I hope they all do well.

Just checked and it's £1400 now for the Pioneer, I could of sworn it was £1200 on release ? Did they put their prices up ?
dan_p
New firmware 1.3 out for the SP-16

https://www.pioneerdj.com/en-us/support/software/toraiz%20sp-16/#firmw are-update

Couple of nice additions and improvements.

Just to add, I still really like this thing, so easy and quick to use. Pioneer seem to be committed and are considering user suggestions for the next release scheduled in spring.
VanEck
dan_p wrote:
New firmware 1.3 out for the SP-16

https://www.pioneerdj.com/en-us/support/software/toraiz%20sp-16/#firmw are-update


thanks for the heads up thumbs up
dan_p
made this with the Toraiz SP-16. I ended up editing it in Logic as I'd already recorded the drum/modular main bit before deciding to make it a track.

[soundcloud url="https://api.soundcloud.com/tracks/306223428" params="auto_play=false&hide_related=false&show_comments=true&show_use r=true&show_reposts=false&visual=true" width="100%" height="450" iframe="true" /]
chorus7
dan_p nice work! thumbs up

I know it has its warts but damn the Toraiz is making sampling fun again...
IR
Cool song, is that some kind of bit crusher effect on that?
dan_p
Thanks Guinness ftw!

chorus7 wrote:
dan_p nice work! thumbs up
I know it has its warts but damn the Toraiz is making sampling fun again...


Same here. I've had to turn it on and play everyday since I got it, it's just so much fun to use. The parameter locks are so easy to set up, you can get some crazy stuff happening very quickly.

IR wrote:
Cool song, is that some kind of bit crusher effect on that?


Yes, its one of the internal Pioneer effects. it is a really nice bit crusher. The effects are pretty good to be fair, certainly useable and with the P locks can be quite creative.
Hans-g
I want one.
dan_p
Hans-g wrote:
I want one.


You need one Miley Cyrus
lorenzovektor
VanEck wrote:
lorenzovektor wrote:
meh, Pioneer should stick to cd players, mixers and dj controllers.

Pioneer is just using it's name to get more money out of bedroom producers/dj's


yeah, and brands like yamaha and roland should just stick to making e-pianos instead of trying to innovate and make electronic music products just to appeal to bedroom producers. this whole "synthesizer" fad will never catch on.


So far all the demo's I've seen have been average if that, for that much $$ I feel there are better options for people that want to use samplers. Roland and the big "synth" manufacturers just started listening to their user base in the last 2-3 years, they did an excellent job along with korg and yamaha makig e-pianos for the last 10-15 years
dan_p
Its a sampler, its not going to write the music for you. I don't think I've seen anything particularly appealing either. Mainly due to the fact that the target user base for the SP-16 isn't going to be making stuff I would particularly like. Having said that, I've seen a couple of demo vid's that whilst not my bag as such have demonstrated what the SP-16 can do very well. The Toraiz does sound exceptional good. I can sample the Hordijk modular into it and the Toraiz retains the character of the recording very well indeed. It sounds huge. But, It is a little pricey, I think the screen, the DSi filter (which I could easily live without) and the apparent build quality are whats making the price high. The knobs and buttons all feel nice, the overall impression is of a solid machine that would last.

I'm not a Pioneer fan boy in the slightest, this is the most mainstream thing I have in my studio by far, but I have to say that it is very good. Its not perfect though, Pioneer have a bit of work to do to add some missing features but they appear to be listening. I'd rather they did this steadily and carefully and maintained the incredible ease of use experience they have created so far.

as for Pioneer "using its name to get more money out of bedroom producers" Well, thats kind of how business works...


lorenzovektor wrote:
VanEck wrote:
lorenzovektor wrote:
meh, Pioneer should stick to cd players, mixers and dj controllers.

Pioneer is just using it's name to get more money out of bedroom producers/dj's


yeah, and brands like yamaha and roland should just stick to making e-pianos instead of trying to innovate and make electronic music products just to appeal to bedroom producers. this whole "synthesizer" fad will never catch on.


So far all the demo's I've seen have been average if that, for that much $$ I feel there are better options for people that want to use samplers. Roland and the big "synth" manufacturers just started listening to their user base in the last 2-3 years, they did an excellent job along with korg and yamaha makig e-pianos for the last 10-15 years
lorenzovektor
I guess I'm being a bit hard on Pioneer
n3wt15
I may be missing something through the readings, but is it possible to sample in realtime with this and play it back on the next measure? to use as a live looper per say..

also can you get to some strange territories with the features after sampling, like the octatrack?

I really want a useful sampler for performing live, I tried the octatrack twice now and just couldnt wrap my head around how it works....which I found strange as I use mostly elektron gear as it is.

This keeps popping up on my radar.

VanEK, we met briefly at Dreamland on your tour, I remember you showing me yours quickly but it was pretty late so we didnt get far into it.
Nice to see you on here Guinness ftw!
DiscoDevil
n3wt15 wrote:
I may be missing something through the readings, but is it possible to sample in realtime with this and play it back on the next measure? to use as a live looper per say..

also can you get to some strange territories with the features after sampling, like the octatrack?

I really want a useful sampler for performing live, I tried the octatrack twice now and just couldnt wrap my head around how it works....which I found strange as I use mostly elektron gear as it is.

This keeps popping up on my radar.

VanEK, we met briefly at Dreamland on your tour, I remember you showing me yours quickly but it was pretty late so we didnt get far into it.
Nice to see you on here Guinness ftw!


Live looping is coming soon.

You can definitely mangle samples but not to the extent that you can with the Octatrack. There are parameter locks per step, there's a clock syncable LFO that can modulate a single destination per step. There are very good sounding, IMO effects available as inserts per track or as send/master effects as well. I am very critical of built in effects and find the ones on the SP-16 to be quite good and very usable.
n3wt15
Awesome, thank you!
h4ndcrafted
I read you can use the DS filter on a single track now. Wondering if there is an env that can be assigned to the filter for triggering ?
dan_p
h4ndcrafted wrote:
I read you can use the DS filter on a single track now. Wondering if there is an env that can be assigned to the filter for triggering ?


Unfortunately not, its only manual control. Being abler to use it on a single track has made it much more useful for jamming stuff over the top of a sequence etc but the filter doesn't add much to he Toraiz to be honest. its better than a kick in the balls but I would rather the unit was a couple of hundred quid cheaper and it wasn't there. Software filter actually sounds OK, they should of had a (software) filter per pad and an effect slot as opposed to being able to select the filter as an effect.
DiscoDevil
I agree the software filter sounds pretty good but the DSI filter and overdrive I think are pretty key to the sound of the Toraiz at least for my purposes. I leave drive on at all times to varying degrees. It really makes the box sound superb to my ears. I will sample my 909 and play them back in the same mix and usually prefer the Toraiz to the original.
VanEck
n3wt15 wrote:
I may be missing something through the readings, but is it possible to sample in realtime with this and play it back on the next measure? to use as a live looper per say..

also can you get to some strange territories with the features after sampling, like the octatrack?

I really want a useful sampler for performing live, I tried the octatrack twice now and just couldnt wrap my head around how it works....which I found strange as I use mostly elektron gear as it is.

This keeps popping up on my radar.

VanEK, we met briefly at Dreamland on your tour, I remember you showing me yours quickly but it was pretty late so we didnt get far into it.
Nice to see you on here Guinness ftw!


sup man. yeah as discodevil pointed out, not really possibly to do octatrack style relooping and mangling just yet. that is something i feel that the octa excels at, and would be a good choice if that's what you want to do. you can get a bit 'glitchy' with things though by experimenting with the effects and lfo's, which i was doing a bit during last stretch of live shows.
PISS.EXE
Has anyone gone from S2000 or similar AKAI to this unit? thanks!
I am looking for a companion not a replacement.
djthopa
Im in! Ill go and pick it up tomorrow, really looking forward to the toraiz.

Thanks a lot for the detailed info, it surely has made me jump the fence thumbs up
starf
Did anybody run into this unit crashing yet? I feel I pushed it to the limits because I ran too many long samples on it. Maybe.

https://www.facebook.com/groups/toraiz/291792837901650/
dan_p
I've not had anything adverse happen while I've been using it, I'm not pushing it too hard though.


starf wrote:
Did anybody run into this unit crashing yet? I feel I pushed it to the limits because I ran too many long samples on it. Maybe.

https://www.facebook.com/groups/toraiz/291792837901650/
cl516
sorry if this is a repeat question, but to those who have the unit:

so if a sequence is playing, can the sample start point / loop start point be manually tweaked on the fly? can that type of automation be recorded?
(not sure if i'm using correct terminology as it pertains to Toraiz)

thanks

UPDATE: @starf thanks!
starf
cl516 wrote:
sorry if this is a repeat question, but to those who have the unit:

so if a sequence is playing, can the sample start point / loop start point be manually tweaked on the fly? can that type of automation be recorded?
(not sure if i'm using correct terminology as it pertains to Toraiz)

thanks


yes, that's possible... both manually and the function can also be LFO'd or parameter-locked per step
starf
So I found another user here in Prague who also kinda pushed this thing to the limit and it crashed on him.
Seems like some scenes can get buggy and you then need to delete the whole scene (sometimes - but rarely - whole project) and do it again. It should then work fine.

Glad it's a SW issue and my unit is fine HW-wise.
wigwig
The chart Pioneer put out last fall showing what would be included in 1.2 and 1.3 gave me hope that they might provide another roadmap of planned updates.

But I don't find any news of updates planned beyond 1.3.

For me, Variable Track Length is a key missing feature.
cl516
wigwig wrote:
But I don't find any news of updates planned beyond 1.3.


They recently mentioned 1.4 would be delayed till end of year, but at least they acknowledged 1.4. No specific feature details though.
wigwig
Ah ok. Thanks.
That's good to know.

(Didn't see that on their news page.)

At least something is coming...
shwanton
I got frustrated with the Pioneer forums, so I went ahead and created my own Trello board for bugs and feature requests.

https://trello.com/b/TBZV5MdR/pioneer-toraiz-sp-16

There really aren't that many show stopping bugs (compared to say the MPC Live), but there are lots of features that would make the SP-16 the easy choice over the MPC or OT.
wigwig
Still poking around here.

DiscoDevil wrote:
...Live looping is coming soon...

I don't see this in the notes for 1.3.

Was Live looping announced somewhere?
revtor
I Think live looping was planned for 1.4.
wigwig
Thanks.
I found something here
Doesnt quite say that Live Looping will be in 1.4, but the implication is pretty strong.
DiscoDevil
The old feature projection timeline had live looping slated for the 1.4 release. Who knows at this point.
wigwig
DiscoDevil wrote:
The old feature projection timeline had live looping slated for the 1.4 release. Who knows at this point.

Good to know. Thanks.
wigwig
The 8 outs the DSI filter are two of the things that make the SP-16 so appealing to me. (Yes, other things, too wink )

But since (afaict from reading the manual !) the filter is either on the Master or on no more than ONE track as an insert, it seems like these two great features don't really live in the same house. [edit: yeah, I know it's an analogue filter. can't be used like a plugin smile]

What are you doing with all those outs?
DiscoDevil
wigwig wrote:
The 8 outs the DSI filter are two of the things that make the SP-16 so appealing to me. (Yes, other things, too wink )

But since (afaict from reading the manual !) the filter is either on the Master or on no more than ONE track as an insert, it seems like these two great features don't really live in the same house. [edit: yeah, I know it's an analogue filter. can't be used like a plugin smile]

What are you doing with all those outs?


I'd put all 16 sounds on their own out if I could but with only 8 available, I usually use a stereo pair for things I want to go through the filter and then put individual drum sounds, bass line, leads, pads, etc on their own out.
wigwig
DiscoDevil wrote:
I'd put all 16 sounds on their own out if I could but with only 8 available, I usually use a stereo pair for things I want to go through the filter and then put individual drum sounds, bass line, leads, pads, etc on their own out.

Makes sense. Thanks

Yeah 16 channels. I doubt I'd use that many anyway.
Maybe to make up for the lack of layering, though. (The only thing mpc live has that I'd miss.)
Liddlepud
I've been asked to do some gigs which will involve flying so I need to drastically reduce the amount of equipment I use. The Toraiz looks perfect but reading thought this topic there are a few points I'm still not clear on

1. Doe the sequencer transmit midi notes, cc's etc. or is there a bug in the current software. I want to use an intellijel u-midi to play sequences on a small modular rig and also to transmit clock and run to a tempi.
2. Is there only one external midi sequence channel? I'd like to use a Blofeld for pads as well as the modular if possible. It's not a big deal as I could always sample the Blofeld and further reduce the amount of equipment I need to take with me.
3. Does song mode work correctly?

The other option is a Digitakt. It's half the price but it doesn't have song mode and I've never found the Elektron method of operation particularly enjoyable.
revtor
yes notes & cc's. Chords too, not just mono.
yes more than one channel possible.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uGiP0A0OFsg


yes song mode works (called "arrangement")
Liddlepud
Thanks for that, time to watch some tutorial vids
Liddlepud
Is it possible to load/switch projects whilst the previous project is still running or do you have to stop the current project before loading a new one?
revtor
it stops
Liddlepud
Oh bugger. I've been spoilt using the Cirklon to trigger drum machines and my modular. You can leave the Cirklon running and then just change songs, I know it doesn't have samples to load up but it gives you a lot of flexibility allowing you to run clocked delays and modular sequences whilst changing songs. Maybe I'll have to look at the MPC Live as an alternative.
wigwig
May not help you, but...
SP-16 manual wrote:
SCENE
Scenes store 16 patterns and information on the assignments to sample tracks.
Since the samples to assign to tracks can be changed for each scene, the tune can be greatly changed by changing the scene.

Maybe you could use a scene with only midi out as a way to transition to the next 'song' ?
Yeah, requires using (groups of) scenes as projects. Depends, I guess.
wigwig
Doing my best to keep this thread alive wink


On the Pioneer forum
K! wrote:
in midi track mode: the pads play the external instrument only if the toraiz stopped

Is it true that Pads don't send midi if Play is engaged?
dubonaire
Well I've had mine for a few days and I love it. Stupidly easy to record, load and play samples, great sound. I find myself really productive with it. At this stage though it seems to me that if you want highly sculpted samples it's better to do that outside the unit.
wigwig
dubonaire wrote:
Well I've had mine for a few days and I love it. Stupidly easy to record, load and play samples, great sound. I find myself really productive with it. At this stage though it seems to me that if you want highly sculpted samples it's better to do that outside the unit.


Care to elaborate?
What are the difficult things to do?

I'd have thought the screen makes it easy.
dubonaire
wigwig wrote:
dubonaire wrote:
Well I've had mine for a few days and I love it. Stupidly easy to record, load and play samples, great sound. I find myself really productive with it. At this stage though it seems to me that if you want highly sculpted samples it's better to do that outside the unit.


Care to elaborate?
What are the difficult things to do?

I'd have thought the screen makes it easy.


The screen makes it very easy to trim samples, but it seems if you really want to shape the sonic properties of the sample the Toraiz is not the strongest thing for that. Now, I may be wrong, I've only just started using it.
dubonaire
wigwig wrote:
dubonaire wrote:
Well I've had mine for a few days and I love it. Stupidly easy to record, load and play samples, great sound. I find myself really productive with it. At this stage though it seems to me that if you want highly sculpted samples it's better to do that outside the unit.


Care to elaborate?
What are the difficult things to do?

I'd have thought the screen makes it easy.


The screen makes it very easy to trim samples, but it seems if you really want to shape the sonic properties of the sample the Toraiz is not the strongest thing for that. Now, I may be wrong, I've only just started using it.
Infinity Curve
I got one recently as well, and really love it. Quite surprised how little attention this thing has gotten. It's a really solid machine, with a lot of features, and incredibly easy to use. Touch screen is responsive and maneuvering through the OS is a breeze, even without reading the manual. And it just sounds BIG, for lack of a better term. Really impressed by the sound quality coming out of it. Effects are well usable too.

Still early days for me with it, but really happy with it so far.
DiscoDevil
dubonaire wrote:
wigwig wrote:
dubonaire wrote:
Well I've had mine for a few days and I love it. Stupidly easy to record, load and play samples, great sound. I find myself really productive with it. At this stage though it seems to me that if you want highly sculpted samples it's better to do that outside the unit.


Care to elaborate?
What are the difficult things to do?

I'd have thought the screen makes it easy.


The screen makes it very easy to trim samples, but it seems if you really want to shape the sonic properties of the sample the Toraiz is not the strongest thing for that. Now, I may be wrong, I've only just started using it.



I prepare all of my samples in Ableton and SoundForge before using them in the Pioneer. It just doesn't have enough editing tools to make it a one stop shop for me. I cut everything up in to loops and hits, normalize, etc everything ahead of time. It's an extra layer of preparation but it's worth it. I still use the envelopes, slices, effects, timestretching, pitch shifting, etc in the SP-16 but the samples are all exactly how I want them before I start a project.
dubonaire
DiscoDevil wrote:
dubonaire wrote:
wigwig wrote:
dubonaire wrote:
Well I've had mine for a few days and I love it. Stupidly easy to record, load and play samples, great sound. I find myself really productive with it. At this stage though it seems to me that if you want highly sculpted samples it's better to do that outside the unit.


Care to elaborate?
What are the difficult things to do?

I'd have thought the screen makes it easy.


The screen makes it very easy to trim samples, but it seems if you really want to shape the sonic properties of the sample the Toraiz is not the strongest thing for that. Now, I may be wrong, I've only just started using it.



I prepare all of my samples in Ableton and SoundForge before using them in the Pioneer. It just doesn't have enough editing tools to make it a one stop shop for me. I cut everything up in to loops and hits, normalize, etc everything ahead of time. It's an extra layer of preparation but it's worth it. I still use the envelopes, slices, effects, timestretching, pitch shifting, etc in the SP-16 but the samples are all exactly how I want them before I start a project.


That gels with my first impressions. By the way DiscoDevil, it was largely your posts that encouraged me to get. thumbs up
Infinity Curve
Same. Your posts certainly swayed me towards it anyways. Glad I went for it, as I really hadn't even looked at it at all until I was offered one in a trade. Figured it was worth a shot, and it has impressed so far.
Mirrorad
DiscoDevil wrote:

I prepare all of my samples in Ableton and SoundForge before using them in the Pioneer. It just doesn't have enough editing tools to make it a one stop shop for me. I cut everything up in to loops and hits, normalize, etc everything ahead of time. It's an extra layer of preparation but it's worth it. I still use the envelopes, slices, effects, timestretching, pitch shifting, etc in the SP-16 but the samples are all exactly how I want them before I start a project.


Same here, but with Logic.
If there is an efficient sequence of steps to trim excess audio to exact start and stop points on the SP-16, I would love for Pioneer to offer a detailed tutorial on this. For example, many of my files have an audio tail that extends the file slightly beyond the loop end point. When i import the file and try to resample it, it's never quite right in the end. I must be messing up a step somewhere. I just haven't figured it out.

Othewise, the workflow of the SP-16 is so intuitive and streamlined for my tastes. I can't wait for 1.4!
DiscoDevil
I know people are probably tired of hearing about it but I'd rank the SP-16 and the Zaquencer as the most fun and useful pieces of gear I've ever owned and I've owned a lot of gear over the decades. I'm happy you guys are enjoying it as well.
wigwig
Thanks to all of you for the feedback on sample editing. thumbs up
Makes sense that the SP-16 isn't as capable as a dedicated audio editor.
Probably no sampler is, though.
I guess it depends on how you want to use it whether that's a problem or not.
jtregoat
thanks for all of the info about this! answered a lot of questions.

Has anyone played with the piano roll sequencer? Liked the option of being able to sequence an external poly with it.

also, as far as scenes and patterns - so you can’t change samples inside a scene? how many scenes before the system starts to overload? processinpower doesn’t look crazy so curious about how long I could
do a live set with this thing...
CDavis
Has anyone tried to send cv out the multiple outputs? Are they dc coupled? I’d love to send loops of cv to my eurorack. I can’t seem to find any info on this.
DiscoDevil
Midi sync issues.

So, in my live rig, the SP-16 demands to be master clock. If I try to slave it to any other clock source, the timing is not solid. I've tried my Engine, Zaquencers, Roland SBX-1, etc and the SP-16 always drifts around enough to make it unusable in a live situation. This is extremely frustrating as it forces me to use the SP-16 as the master and sync everything else to it. When set up this way, the timing is perfect but I lose the ability to hook a keyboard or other controller up to the input and play the synths further down the chain because the SP-16 does NOT pass midi data through unless the track is in Sample mode. Totally something they could have/should have fixed literally over a year ago. Grrrrr
CDavis
You could get something like a Kenton midi merge 4 to keep the clock but add a keyboard in. But also, they should probably fix that.
Panason
MIDI Sync Issues is the name of my avant garde electro-acoustic project... nah, fuck that.

So much gear released with this problem...
Panason
Just watched a video review of this and it looks pretty good... I'm wondering how people are getting on with it these days after the updates?
DiscoDevil
The update fixed a couple of undocumented bugs which is nice. I haven't tried the live sampling yet but the recording in my sig is mostly SP-16. It's still the most important piece of gear in my studio.
Panason
I really like the UI on it and getting interested... I will want to use the MIDI sequencer in it as it ticks a lot of boxes.

I've been reading up but these things aren't clear:

-Does it send out a tight MIDI clock? I assume syncing to external MIDI hasn't been fixed..
-Can it send MIDI program changes when selecting a pattern or is it still one program per scene?
-No FX step automation in the sequencer ?

cheers
DiscoDevil
Panason wrote:
I really like the UI on it and getting interested... I will want to use the MIDI sequencer in it as it ticks a lot of boxes.

I've been reading up but these things aren't clear:

-Does it send out a tight MIDI clock? I assume syncing to external MIDI hasn't been fixed..
-Can it send MIDI program changes when selecting a pattern or is it still one program per scene?
-No FX step automation in the sequencer ?

cheers


Solid clock out
Only one program per scene
Anything that has a CC # can be automated per step

It's a very basic but super fun and expressive sequencer.
Panason
Cool, thanks. But, can you automate its own FX with the step sequencer?
Also, did you try syncing it using the audio input?

This machine is so close to what I want but I'm finding hard to justify the cost if it will only work properly as a clock master...

I just found this which may be a good solution to the MIDI sync issue ... but needs an iOS device in the middle:

https://itunes.apple.com/gb/app/link-to-midi/id1066216595?mt=8&ign-mpt =uo%3D4

...and an android version :

https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.planeth.linktomidi&h l=en_US
zeit
Sort of interested in this sampler and how it compares to the OT as far as the *sound*, will have to go back and read this thread...
DiscoDevil
Panason wrote:
Cool, thanks. But, can you automate its own FX with the step sequencer?
Also, did you try syncing it using the audio input?

This machine is so close to what I want but I'm finding hard to justify the cost if it will only work properly as a clock master...

I just found this which may be a good solution to the MIDI sync issue ... but needs an iOS device in the middle:

https://itunes.apple.com/gb/app/link-to-midi/id1066216595?mt=8&ign-mpt =uo%3D4

...and an android version :

https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.planeth.linktomidi&h l=en_US


Not sure what you mean by syncing it with the audio input. Sync options are midi via din or usb or prolink via rj45.

The sync issue isn't a midi one, it's more to do with the time stretch engine. If you're not using time stretched loops, it stays in time.

Assign whatever effect parameter you want to one of the 12 available slots for automation, set the parameter value per step for automation
Panason
Awesome, thanks for clearing that up!

They have added the option to set the BPM using the audio input but I guess that won't solve the problem.
Panason
zeit wrote:
Sort of interested in this sampler and how it compares to the OT as far as the *sound*, will have to go back and read this thread...


Everyone is saying that it sounds really good! I'm sure it will sound better than the OT because of that filter and most likely better D/A converters.
DiscoDevil
Panason wrote:
Awesome, thanks for clearing that up!

They have added the option to set the BPM using the audio input but I guess that won't solve the problem.



Oh, I see now. No, that wouldn't help for syncing with external gear but would be nice I guess for the live sample looping.
DiscoDevil
zeit wrote:
Sort of interested in this sampler and how it compares to the OT as far as the *sound*, will have to go back and read this thread...


Best sounding sample playback engine ever made, in my opinion. Terrible sampler though. Best to prepare your samples in advance on a computer before importing in to the SP-16 or just use the live sampling feature for performance. Any type of editing or file management is a struggle on the machine itself.
Panason
I'm having a GAS attack help
DiscoDevil
My response regarding the effect automation was not accurate.

I'm in front of the machine now. If you have an effect assigned to a track, Playback, AMP Envelope and FX1 all have up to six assigned parameters that can be automated per step. The available parameters are hardwired though and cannot be changed, meaning, depending which effect you have chosen, the available parameters are chosen for you. For midi tracks there are 2 midi CC banks of 6 parameters that can be assigned and automated per step. Pitch Bend and Aftertouch are hardwired and therefore cannot be assigned but the other 10 slots are available for reassignment.
DiscoDevil
Panason wrote:
I'm having a GAS attack help


If you are looking for a full featured, sampling/sequencing standalone workstation, I'd look elsewhere. If you are looking for a way to sequence and perform your previously recorded material in a unique, fun and intuitive way and don't mind doing a lot of prep work ahead of time, it's a no brainer.

Up to this point I've mostly been using it as just a sample playback engine and performance sequencer but I've in the last few months really started to take advantage of the midi sequencing toolset. Frustrating at first but once I stop trying to make it work the way I think it should and change my habits to adapt to it's workflow, it's pretty amazing. I've always preferred a keyboard to play my synth parts on but have slowly been integrating playing the pads in to my performances and wow, it's so much easier for me to jam out solos on the pads. I wish there was both a pitchbend and mod controller on it and that the pads sent aftertouch but they all do have associated knobs close by, it's just a different way of playing.
zeit
Quote:

Best sounding sample playback engine ever made, in my opinion. Terrible sampler though. Best to prepare your samples in advance on a computer before importing in to the SP-16 or just use the live sampling feature for performance. Any type of editing or file management is a struggle on the machine itself.


I tend to use samples already prepared to create complete tracks/songs and I've noticed lately I spend less and less time experimenting with advanced sequencing so this does look interesting and something I'd prefer. w00t Will download the manual and read more about it.
Panason
Is the re-trigger parameter also available for MIDI tracks?
DiscoDevil
Panason wrote:
Is the re-trigger parameter also available for MIDI tracks?


Yup.
h4ndcrafted
I’ve been through the manual on this thing, is there really no ‘undo’ function ?

Somewhat surprised there isnt a filter env for digital filters yet.

The rest looks simple but a lot of fun. Shame you can’t even chain patterns on the djs. Why it hasn’t got a pattern list like the sp I don’t know, other than to keep sales going for the Sp. Seems little weird though, as they are different in other ways.

Love to hear from anybody that’s used both the SP and the DJS and if they sound the same with the analogue filter bypassed ?
DiscoDevil
You can undo your real time overdub recording. That's it. Pretty lame.

I haven't used the DJS but I think the analog portion of the SP is key to its sound. The overdrive circuit especially.
Panason
I just tried it in a shop... After working with the Elektron machines this is like going from a European to an American car... built like a tank, big, comfortable and powerful.... so much space between buttons and knobs, and that screeen! The Octatrack mk2 nearby was looking positively sad with its little unreadable lo-res calculator screen and cramped, busy layout...

There are less options but everything is so easy to access and understand. It does not cram a whole bunch of stuff into a tiny box, it does not try to be clever, there are no hidden button combos or unconventional stuff.

I like it a lot, it's close to being perfect for what I want... A real shame this is Pioneer and so it's not likely they will continue improving it as they are busy releasing more and more boxes for the DJ market. Their forum is a mess and the Feature Requests section does not have separate forums for products... it is flooded with DJs asking for rekordbox features and I just can't see Pioneer giving much further thought to the SP-16.

I heard that it does not send out MIDI notes from the pads when the sequencer is running?

That, the program change issue and the inability to record MIDI notes from the pads or the MIDI input are probably the biggest sticking points in making this the central hub of my setup..it's a pity because these shouldn't be difficult issues to fix.
DiscoDevil
I use the pads to play external synths on it while the sequencer plays so that's false. It does not pass through midi notes though which is a total fail, IMO. If you hook up a keyboard to it, you can input notes for SAMPLE tracks but when you switch the track to MIDI, it no longer passes the notes through. Very frustrating.

The one PC per track, per pattern is a drag but the way I get around it is to just record the audio of the synths that I am sequencing and just use the loops and basically just keep one track per pattern that is dedicated to midi, everything else is a sample track. It simplifies my live rig but still allows me to do some improvisation and go off on tangents.

Yeah, it's just about perfect. 2x midi ins, 2x midi outs and some basic tweaks to the functionality is all it would take to make this the greatest piece of studio gear ever for my purposes. As it is, I've found workarounds for most of the pain in the ass stuff but it requires me to bring more gear out and limits what I can do.
Panason
Thanks dude. You're right, it's probably better practice to sample stuff rather than relying on MIDI so much.

So, can you actually record MIDI notes into the sequencer by playing the pads?
DiscoDevil
Panason wrote:
Thanks dude. You're right, it's probably better practice to sample stuff rather than relying on MIDI so much.

So, can you actually record MIDI notes into the sequencer by playing the pads?


Absolutely and it's a lot of fun. Not polyphonically, unfortunately but once you've jammed out your sequence, you can go through and create chords manually.
Panason
The LAN port on the back is crying out for Ableton Link... Apparently many people have requested and they are looking into it... It should give a super tight sync.
h4ndcrafted
Thanks for the feedback Disco.

Think I’ll go for the SP. The djs seems huge anyway, and I partly want it as a sketch pad. Form factor seems more producer friendly too. Individual outs are handy, not sure how much I’ll use them tbh, plan the render stems tbh and import them into live.

Other than the dj side of things, is there anything else you know that the Djs has over the SP ?
Panason
There isn't much in the manual about saving your work. Can you backup patterns and scenes to a USB stick?
DiscoDevil
Panason wrote:
There isn't much in the manual about saving your work. Can you backup patterns and scenes to a USB stick?


Yes. You can export the entire project, samples and all as well.
DiscoDevil
h4ndcrafted wrote:

Other than the dj side of things, is there anything else you know that the Djs has over the SP ?


Hmmm... I think it's all pretty much DJ features. The 8 outputs and analogue section of the SP are a huge selling point for me. If you don't need those, I think the DJS has everything else covered plus some things.
dubonaire
h4ndcrafted wrote:
Thanks for the feedback Disco.

Think I’ll go for the SP. The djs seems huge anyway, and I partly want it as a sketch pad. Form factor seems more producer friendly too. Individual outs are handy, not sure how much I’ll use them tbh, plan the render stems tbh and import them into live.

Other than the dj side of things, is there anything else you know that the Djs has over the SP ?


I think the DJS is designed to loop samples. I've never before experienced the speed of getting working tracks going as on the SP-16. Perfect sketch pad. Really awesome sound which is inspiring. A real warehouse house machine. Seriously just load up some hits, pads and samples and have fun. You could easily get away with a house or techno set with not much effort. But also it's not that hard to finesse or jam. Adjusting start and end points and sample envelopes is super easy. The scale mode is excellent. People talk about the limitations but seriously, house and techno is about reduction. There are annoying limitations but if you can't make people dance with this thing you never will.
BTG
Can anyone suggest a good two tier stand for this?
DiscoDevil
BTG wrote:
Can anyone suggest a good two tier stand for this?



It's got a sloped underside on the front lip, kinda like the 707/727 so it doesn't stay on the stands I have. You'd need something that has a front edge that sticks up high enough.
Panason
I'm looking at a used one tomorrow. It's still under warranty but of course i'd rather avoid buying a faulty one.

Is there anything to look out for?
Panason
dubonaire wrote:
I've never before experienced the speed of getting working tracks going as on the SP-16. Perfect sketch pad. Really awesome sound which is inspiring. A real warehouse house machine. Seriously just load up some hits, pads and samples and have fun. You could easily get away with a house or techno set with not much effort. But also it's not that hard to finesse or jam. Adjusting start and end points and sample envelopes is super easy. The scale mode is excellent. People talk about the limitations but seriously, house and techno is about reduction. There are annoying limitations but if you can't make people dance with this thing you never will.


OMG. I just got mine and I can confirm the above is 100% accurate!

I almost feel embarassed using this, it is so good. I am nearly crying! Dead Banana If you want to make fat dance tunes this thing is OVERWEIGHT.

It is dope, the bees knees, the dog's bollocks, the real motherfucking shit!

Forget the Octatrack and its sound and its fiddly diddly knob twiddling button combo wank, this is what you want for banging out the sick beats ! All night long! applause
Thanks DiscoDevil for the help!

A tip: If you want some notes to not play every time, so you can have a less static pattern: you can somewhat get by the lack of conditional triggers by assigning a free running or sample & hold (and maybe synced) square LFO to velocity at full depth, setting the sound's velocity to zero and tweaking the LFO settings to taste. You only have one LFO per track though. Randomness may be possible using the random LFO but I haven't worked it out yet...
Panason
Just went to Pioneer site to download updates and found this in the Project Creator app download:

Ver.1.1.0 Update
[IMPROVED]

Maximum sample length has been extended to 64 seconds.

https://www.pioneerdj.com/en-us/support/software/toraiz%20sp-16/#softw are-update


???
revtor
Early on there were a few vocal complaints/requests that the 32 second limit was no bueno. Pioneer made it extende to 64 seconds I think around update 1.4

Steve



Panason wrote:
Just went to Pioneer site to download updates and found this in the Project Creator app download:

Ver.1.1.0 Update
[IMPROVED]

Maximum sample length has been extended to 64 seconds.

https://www.pioneerdj.com/en-us/support/software/toraiz%20sp-16/#softw are-update


???
Panason
Sweet, uploading my sample collection to it now... finally all those samples will have a home to live in and be played from!
I could never bring myself to learn how to use the samplers in Ableton.

Just being able to plug the machine in and use the computer's native file browser, or a USB stick, this is what you need for sampler management. It's peanut butter jelly time!
h4ndcrafted
Looking at the Roland sp555, as it does a lot of the same with more fx, routing is not so important for me. At a quarter of the price it is tempting.

I think I’m going to settle on an SP16 and the Roland 404a for mangling duties and sketches, I imagine they would make a killer pair for improv stuff.
dubonaire
h4ndcrafted wrote:
Looking at the Roland sp555, as it does a lot of the same with more fx, routing is not so important for me. At a quarter of the price it is tempting.

I think I’m going to settle on an SP16 and the Roland 404a for mangling duties and sketches, I imagine they would make a killer pair for improv stuff.


Quite a few people are using the Boss RC-505 with it.
h4ndcrafted
dubonaire wrote:
h4ndcrafted wrote:
Looking at the Roland sp555, as it does a lot of the same with more fx, routing is not so important for me. At a quarter of the price it is tempting.

I think I’m going to settle on an SP16 and the Roland 404a for mangling duties and sketches, I imagine they would make a killer pair for improv stuff.


Quite a few people are using the Boss RC-505 with it.


Thanks dub, the rc505 looks like a cool looper, another manual I need to read!

The 404 is attractive because it runs on batteries and I’m pretty familiar with the SP series. Last Boss thing I owned was the sp505, I always thought it was odd that Roland would release it under boss hmmm.....
h4ndcrafted
Sorry if this has been covered, does the SP16 remember mute states when saving a pattern ?
h4ndcrafted
Arrived! It’s still honey moon, but I’m loving this machine, save the crappy reverb, rest of the FX are good. It’s not perfect but as already mentioned, if gives you fast access to your library of loops and sounds.

Decided to go for an internal 240 SSD with sata to USB 3 lead, as it is faster computer end.

Cat-A-Tonic
h4ndcrafted wrote:

Decided to go for an internal 240 SSD with sata to USB 3 lead, as it is faster computer end.


Is that an easy mod?

Doesn't it already have an SSD as opposed to HDD?
h4ndcrafted
Cat-A-Tonic wrote:
h4ndcrafted wrote:

Decided to go for an internal 240 SSD with sata to USB 3 lead, as it is faster computer end.


Is that an easy mod?

Doesn't it already have an SSD as opposed to HDD?


It’s not a mod as such. The sp16 will read any drive it can powerthats formatted in Fat32.

I just bought an internal because it’s cheaper, the cable is this one

Sabrent USB 3.0 to SSD/2.5-Inch SATA Hard Drive Adapter [Optimized For SSD, Support UASP SATA III] (EC-SSHD) https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B011M8YACM/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_tai_uYlDBb6D35Q0 C

Works well and has a drive light .

Yes it has internal 8gb , but having a large amount of samples at hand is better, plus it’s better for saving as a package , which I imagine will soon use up space.

Dead Banana oh I just realised you might of thought I was replacing the internal, which I’m not, this is just attached to the topside USB port instead of a thumb drive.
Cat-A-Tonic
ah, thanks for the clarification
dubonaire
h4ndcrafted wrote:
Arrived! It’s still honey moon, but I’m loving this machine, save the crappy reverb, rest of the FX are good. It’s not perfect but as already mentioned, if gives you fast access to your library of loops and sounds.

Decided to go for an internal 240 SSD with sata to USB 3 lead, as it is faster computer end.


It's a cool machine is it not?
h4ndcrafted
Yes, had it over the monitors , rather than headphones, the reverb is actually quite usable in certain instances.

I’m very glad I went for the Sp rather than the Dj, the filter is surprisingly useful, rolling of the high end and and then bringing it back with the high pass sounds very sweet.

It’s almost like having an Elektron that sounds good. The big visual screen makes a lot of difference and it feels snappy, not like a computer, which I was worried about.

Very happy so far thumbs up
Panason
Quote:
It’s almost like having an Elektron that sounds good



As you'll probably have found d out, mute states are not saved and they work on the audio level (instantly cutting out the sound ) so it may be better to prepare your patterns how you want them.
h4ndcrafted
Panason wrote:
Quote:
It’s almost like having an Elektron that sounds good



As you'll probably have found d out, mute states are not saved and they work on the audio level (instantly cutting out the sound ) so it may be better to prepare your patterns how you want them.


Yes I had read that, shame but I just delete what I don’t need in the pattern.
bimbom
Should this box interest me ?
Last time I read about it there were ‘issues’.

If @panason likes it there must be something going for it ? (Meant in a god way,I think we both seek working usable gear)
DiscoDevil
It's worthless. Terrible machine.
Panason
bimbom wrote:
Should this box interest me ?
Last time I read about it there were ‘issues’.

If @panason likes it there must be something going for it ? (Meant in a god way,I think we both seek working usable gear)


DiscoD is joking....

I like a lot of stuff and I do mention it but people have a habit of focusing on "negativity".

I have in these forums at various points commented on how much I like:

-The Toraiz SP-16
-The TT-303
-Waldorf gear
-Access Virus
-Nord 3 (stack those sounds to make it bigger!)
-The Analog Rytm mk1 - yes I do like it quite a lot despite some almost deal-breaking shit and needing to process it externally to get it to sound good.
-The Machinedrum.
-Other stuff.

I believe Elektron's current product lineup is overpriced and problematic on both hardware and software level , their customer and product support is shit (I am one of their customers)- and that the Elektron hype needs to be taken down a notch... Because a lot of people have Elektron gear at the centre of their setup , and because of Elektron's very effective marketing and their (now false) image as a small independent company it has become a sort of taboo to say negative things about this company but I don't care about that.

Anyway, back to topic- the SP-16 is great because :

Patterns and sample assignments are automatically saved as soon as they're made. You can switch the machine off without having to save your work. This functionality is often overlooked but it's what sealed the deal for me.

It has a nice screen of the right size and resolution where you can see what you're doing clearly (the mixer and pattern management screens are pure joy, and better than using a mouse in a DAW)

The touchscreen interface is implemented wisely without taking over functions that should have physical controls.

It has the right way to load samples into it. No apps needed, just your computer and a USB cable or USB drive. Sample upload happens at 21st century speeds.

It has decent MIDI sequencing.

The sequencer has the right balance between complexity and simplicity (track naming, step copying and sending program changes with any pattern are the only things missing really)

It is solid hardware built to last. The labels of the controls are placed where you can see them and they won't rub off like they are on my Rytm because they are also placed where your fingers won't touch them.

It is easy to play with and does not bog you down with button combos like the Elektron gear. Live jamming with patterns: on the SP-16 it's like most other pattern based gear (other than Elektron): Simply press a button to select a pattern and it starts playing at the end of the current pattern OR on the next beat (set in the options). No bullshit. Only one finger required.

And because it just sounds damn good.

It's obviously designed for dance music so if you want odd time signatures and polyrhythms and generative sequencing and random/ conditional triggers and all that jazz, it may not be the box for you.. but at least some of these things can be done with clever use of samples and the LFOs. You can at least have odd number of steps in a pattern.
bimbom
thanks for the update. handy info .. i think its fine to balance praise and criticism , otherwise no one will bother fixing broken firmware , know what to be aware of or know when something is very worth looking at.

so it can also
do xox style drum machine step sequencing with notes etc, or would that be 1 track for Bass drum or would you slice a 16step drum chain ? .

i saw loops are stretched to the bpm ? ... so i could put in my loops (typically 4 , 8 bars at 120bpm) and it would make them fit if i was working at 110 ?
it just time stretches them , not change the pitch ?

and the stretched audio quality is good too.

fyi
i have octatrack, just got an sp404a which is very basic ( 18'th century editor for dropping samples in it).
also digitakt , rytm. ... too much gear to be honest...but i wanted a simple stereo sample player , the 404 is definitely simple but it is what it is..
something to fill up with samples from vst/ableton . i usually render off full scales of a bass synth , or c1,c2,c3 in chains for octatrack ..

i'm under no illusions its bug free or does everything all samples in history have previously done , but an actual normal way to put samples on something might be a revelation.
Panason
Yes to all your questions!

You can stretch samples with or without changing pitch. If the sample is already cropped to a whole number of bars it easily fits it to your tempo.

You cannot destructively edit samples on the machine but it's easy and quick enough to connect to your computer, open, edit and save the sample directly back to the machine.

I never thought I would buy Pioneer DJ gear. This SP-16 has been prominently sitting on display in my local shop since it launched, but I always dismissed it until I read this thread and had a closer look and listen.... this is not just a DJ toy, it's very capable in the studio.

You can easily slice samples on the machine itself and trigger the slices from the pads, on one track ( a track will only play one stereo sample at a time, but you have on-board resampling). Or you can zoom in on the waveform on screen and find a sample start point for each step in a sequence.

I haven't found any bugs and haven't seen any deal-breaking bugs reported.
h4ndcrafted
I don’t think the stretch is very good, it seems to have one algorithm. On the flip side you can resample vocals akai syle if you half time , and get those jungle stretches. Yes it breaks up that much, and with not too much deviation from it’s original BPM.
Timestretch begs to be abused but I rarely use it.

I wish there was a way to unmute after using the ribbon for a repeat snare roll. You can’t seem to repeat any drum while it’s muted to drop back in.

The ease of the sampling and re-recording before committing it to a pad is great for live playing as the sequencer runs.

There are so many wants, like being able to loop an arrangement (there is a 4 bar limit) , it’s no Elektron in the seq department , but the fundamentals are solid. I’ve used so many recent samplers that just sound meh, it doesn’t matter how many bells and whistles they have got.

What you seem to get here is a decent quality, in both sound and construction, with basic sound manipulation until you hit the sequencer. The seq is a bonus and you can tweak enough things to make it interesting.

There aren’t many effects, but what is there is usable, especially like the lofi and the comp is nice. Reverb is ok but you need roll the highs off as it breaks up a lot, although that can be used as an effect too.
Delay is too basic and is mono, no ping pong.

Overall it’s a keeper for me. I paid £800 , I don’t think it is worth more than £1000 after tax, but that’s subjective of course, things are worth what you’re willing to pay for them, as ever. I’ve seen these go for as little as £700 on eBay.
I’m very sceptical as to wether Pioneer is interested in developing these further, they are dragging their heels big time, which makes me wonder if it totally flopped.

Top of my want features is the pattern reset feature Elektrons have, so you can go crazy, mess up a pattern and revert to saved instantly. Can’t find an option for that seriously, i just don't get it
Panason
I found a bug that was totally not surprising. Seen similar shit too many times before. It doesn't look like manufacturers of such gear really ever test the MIDI sync functionality when syncing with other grooveboxes/drum machines. seriously, i just don't get it

If you run the SP -16 as the master clock, when you change scenes it sends out a Stop message (or interrupts the clock output)... This, coupled with how you can only send a program change when changing scene limits what you can do with it if you run other MIDI clocked sequencers in your setup..
(A "scene" in this case is like a combined kit and pattern bank. It contains 16 patterns and one "kit" of pad assignments, so you can have different sets of samples or MIDI tracks on the pads in different scenes)

Like some other gear, when running as a slave, the SP-16 DOES NOT pass through incoming MIDI clock to its MIDI output... but you're always better off with a real through box anyway.

I'll be testing (by ear) the timing of the sequencer when running as a slave to my Rytm and report back.

Also, you can only play MIDI gear from the pads monophonically and only when the sequencer is running. (When it is stopped the pads ignore note lentgh and just send out very short triggers.)
DiscoDevil
Panason wrote:


If you run the SP -16 as the master clock, when you change scenes it sends out a Stop message (or interrupts the clock output)... This, coupled with how you can only send a program change when changing scene limits what you can do with it if you run other MIDI clocked sequencers in your setup.

I'll be testing (by ear) the timing of the sequencer when running as a slave to my Rytm and report back.


I use mine as master clock when playing live and it does not do this. Curious to hear what you find in your slave testing.
Panason
I was running the SP-16 as the master with the Rytm as the slave. The Rytm would stop as soon as I triggered a pattern on another scene in the SP.

I'll double check the settings on the Rytm as is there is some badly explained Elektron shit there (to do with pattern changes) that may be causing the issue.
Panason
OK, here are some more findings:

I only have limited amount of time to spend re-wiring shit around so I haven't yet checked the issue with the clock output stopping after a scene change - but I remember reading about how there was an issue with the SP sending an "All Sounds Off" message which maybe what stopped the Rytm...

I synced it to Live with DIN MIDI from a mio4 interface for several hours without a hitch... but, with the Rytm running in sync as the reference, there is a small , constant latency in the MIDI notes sent out by the SP-16 in this case, which was corrected by using the "offset" parameter in the sequencer. It stayed synced solidly for hours... This latency is there also when playing a synth from the SP's pads, so I'm not sure what is going on there. It was set up like this:
The SP-16 was sending its MIDI output to the mio4 which is then routing it to the Neutron and the TT 303 merged with the clock signal from Ableton. I am not sure the mio4 is as good as it's meant to be so it may be that the latency is from the mio4 routing.

When changing scenes while synced to Live, at first it wasn't working right: It would play play the first bar of the new pattern and then jump to Scene 1, Pattern 1. I fixed this by either turning on Song position or turning off Note/CC at the MIDI Input settings (needs another test to figure out what is going on there ... you can change scenes and patterns using MIDI CCs)

-If a MIDI note is long enough to extend beyond the end of a bar and you change pattern at the end of that bar, it will forget the note off message until the next trigger. applause

-Even though the SP-16's MIDI sequencer can play chords, it is not a fully polyphonic sequencer Dead Banana Dead Banana Dead Banana (see next paragraph for a solution) Reminiscent of the Monomachine, it is more of a trigger sequencer, and what happens is you cannot extend the length of a note to overlap a note after it, so you cannot program slides on monosynths that only slide in this legato manner... and chords will be cut off when the next trigger comes on. You cannot offset individual notes of a chord. Every note trigger on the sequence will stop any notes playing before it on the same track...

This brought a bit of a downer to the show, BUT you can set another track to output to the same MIDI channel, so this can be used as a work-around. YOu can add those overlapping notes on this second track and it works as expected. This track can also double as your modulation track so as to keep the note track free of clutter...

I haven't yet tested if chords entered in the step sequencer will conform to the musical scale chosen for the track...
bimbom
Just got one , first 5 minutes seemed very intuitive , responsive screen.
More stuff tonight. Maybe it’ll last longer than the sp404
DiscoDevil
The slave/sync issue appears to be related to the timestretch engine. Load up a project with many 4 bar time stretched loops. Sync it and another drum machine to an external clock source. Hit play and go about doing a "live" performance with it, switching patterns and scenes on it while the other drum machine plays along in time. It doesn't take long for them to get out of sync and you'll need to stop the master clock and restart it to get everything back in time again. Running it as the master clock and syncing other machines to it is the workaround.
dubonaire
Hey Disco Devil, is that soundcloud link in your footer all live by you? What was your set-up if you don't mind me asking?
DiscoDevil
dubonaire wrote:
Hey Disco Devil, is that soundcloud link in your footer all live by you? What was your set-up if you don't mind me asking?


Yessir. All live, just me and the machines. Granted, it's chock full of prepared loops and sequences from studio sessions but performed live on the SP-16, Avalon, Acidlab Drumatix and the Modor NF-1m. A 1604 VLZ-Pro, TC ND-1 delay, Strymon Mobius and a Bozure Isolator. 8 channels for the SP-16, 5 for the Drumatix, 2 for NF-1M and one for the Avalon.
bimbom
tonights verdict .. fun , quick , easy to use , not deep but probably deep enough for most genres. (less friendly for plaid like structures /polyrythms/quirky time signatures etc).more sort of orbital / underworld than plaid/funkstorung. got to grips with it quickly , so much quicker than i did with octatrack but there are things it cant match octatrack on (quirky weird resampling/probability quirky crazy confusing stuff).

i haven't done any midi sync with other gear though.

so the obvious comparison with octatrack.
8 gig sample storage , bit less in reality . quick usb xfer via usb lead/normal mac/pc file stuff.
overall its simpler but thats possibly a good thing for many genres of music
fx not as crazy , 1 per track , 1 master (inc reverb ) , delay has more parameters when its master too (seems to be mono) .. havent noticed the others...reverb seems very usable though i thnk its only on master (will check tomorrow , it might depend on sample mode).

easy to get samples in/out of , though its less friendly with 24bit , 48 k samples that ive been making lately (just to ensure theyre crisp on digitakt , octatrack) ... need lots of converting tomorrow.

touch screen , larger screen is nice. screen is responsive.
proper waveforms are nice.
slice grid is quick , and you can go deeper into editing each slice if you want, and have any number up to 64 (yup , that includes quick slice grid of 37 if you wanted)... no zero cross point option.

it seems to store the actual start/end point on the step , not the slice number , so you can do a quick dirty 16 slices , sequence some of that , then slice to 37 and sequence some of that ... the previous stuff wont change.
cant change sample per step like octatrack , using chains / slices can get around that
FX tails seem to cut off when changing scene (different scene means all 16 tracks can become different samples/midi/ thru etc)

filter sounds ok , not too fussed to be honest , i'm quite happy with most filters i've used if its analog or digital , hp/lp ... nice to have dials i guess.

buttons seem fine , like the tr8 , easy to run fingers across and stab at them .
scale modes seem ok.
midi chords seem to be like elektron though each step cant be tweaked as on digitakt, i think its just main note and the offset notes stay where they are relative to that , though presumably made to fit in the scale.

new sequence/pattern view is a quite nice overview of the 4 patterns to see where the triggers are.

I'm missing easy to copy/paste/delete steps (though there are shortcuts to clear pattern , and i havent read the manual yet).
1 x lfo per track , small range of waverforms , free/trigger mode , can be assigned to pitch/start/loop and fx parameters.

nice to have 16 coloured pads blinking away to judge whats muted , triggering sounds etc .

tomorrow fun.
what sort of midi cc/external controller can this deal with for mixing , fx sends etc.
hooking up to midi things.
read manual , find shortcuts , use multiple outs.
storage options.
mangle some samples over each other and attempt to dump noises onto sound cloud.

would like.
more divisions for sync delays , triplets etc , otherwise i think i have to turn off sync and dial in the ms values.
add labels to midi cc external controllers (i've been spoilt by using pyramid which has just added that) ..
more lfos for external things , depends if those values can be visualised in any way when put onto the steps.
check - can i move samples and it stays ok or will it break the link to the file ?...
syncd resample triggering for on the fly live sampling , it seemed to start when i hit the button , would like it to start at beginning of bar or something.

it didnt crash , though my octatrack hasnt crashed either.
thatll do , a few things above may be wrong and i'm sure a few things are possible but i just havent had time yet.
dubonaire
DiscoDevil wrote:
dubonaire wrote:
Hey Disco Devil, is that soundcloud link in your footer all live by you? What was your set-up if you don't mind me asking?


Yessir. All live, just me and the machines. Granted, it's chock full of prepared loops and sequences from studio sessions but performed live on the SP-16, Avalon, Acidlab Drumatix and the Modor NF-1m. A 1604 VLZ-Pro, TC ND-1 delay, Strymon Mobius and a Bozure Isolator. 8 channels for the SP-16, 5 for the Drumatix, 2 for NF-1M and one for the Avalon.


Very nice. Love the warm bubbly acid theme running through the set.
DiscoDevil
dubonaire wrote:

Very nice. Love the warm bubbly acid theme running through the set.


Thank you! It's way more raw than I'm normally comfortable with but fuck it, it was Furthur and the whole experience was pretty twisted. I had not slept in well over 24hrs by the time I had to play.
dubonaire
DiscoDevil wrote:
dubonaire wrote:

Very nice. Love the warm bubbly acid theme running through the set.


Thank you! It's way more raw than I'm normally comfortable with but fuck it, it was Furthur and the whole experience was pretty twisted. I had not slept in well over 24hrs by the time I had to play.


Haha classic! I just checked the festival out, pretty cool line-up.
Panason
It should be possible to jack a pair of individual outs back to the inputs and use an input track, so as to apply more than one fx to a track. If you can assign more than one track to the same output then you could use that as a kind of group FX insert.

What's great about the slicing being quick and easy is that you don't have to prepare special sample chains (if you want more samples to be available in one pattern).. you can just paste all your samples one after the other into one sample file and then slice the sample on the machine, then trigger the slices as needed.
Using the individual outs it should also be possible to layer two mono samples on one pad (mixing them into a stereo sample on the computer) and crossfade as needed with the pan control.. I think.

Velocity as a modulation source is really missing here.
dubonaire
Panason wrote:
It should be possible to jack a pair of individual outs back to the inputs and use an input track, so as to apply more than one fx to a track. If you can assign more than one track to the same output then you could use that as a kind of group FX insert.


That's not a bad idea, but it's ridiculous that it should need such a workaround. It doesn't really bother me, because I don't think the workflow is great for live effects anyway, and I would rather use an external FX signal path that doesn't come back to the SP-16.

I'm guessing that adding a second effect in the chain requires a fair bit of coding, including memory management, and the resources needed to do that are being deployed elsewhere by Pioneer.

I think this machine is excellent as a live machine, you don't want it to be too complex. At least I don't. I think when you perform live you don't want to look like you are dissecting a rat.
Panason
Not so much for serious studio or live use but when just noodling around and want to apply more fx to a track it may be a quick fix..

There's no word in the manual about outputs.. are they unbalanced? The graphic diagram about connections shows unbalanced cables being used.
dubonaire
Panason wrote:
Not so much for serious studio or live use but when just noodling around and want to apply more fx to a track it may be a quick fix..

There's no word in the manual about outputs.. are they unbalanced? The graphic diagram about connections shows unbalanced cables being used.


Not sure, but the way I use the SP-16 my outputs are short runs to a live mixer, so I'm not fussed. Such details should be documented though. For 1/4" I tend to always use TRS cables.
DiscoDevil
Panason wrote:
Not so much for serious studio or live use but when just noodling around and want to apply more fx to a track it may be a quick fix..

There's no word in the manual about outputs.. are they unbalanced? The graphic diagram about connections shows unbalanced cables being used.


In general, most outputs are going to be unbalanced. I have balanced outputs on 2 pieces of gear but they are XLR style. Everything else is unbalanced.
bimbom
quick question , more thoughts.

q1 - what have people used as storage , is it just usb sticks or can i do more with it? ... usb hard drive , usb hub with multiple mem sticks , controllers , normal keyboard (for renaming saves samples ).

i get the impression there is no midi cc / midi in control , maybe just note data for recording a pattern.

it seems geared towards using prepared loops and basic sequencing if needed , i dont think its a 'quick on the fly' type of machine that the octatrack can be , but thats not an issue to be honest...
its easy to make a bassline , sample it in from external midi device and use very quickly, then swap it onto a pre-prepared glitchy pattern. I've got some odd drum loops put together very quickly.

recording a 2 bar loop then editing the settings to a different tempo has some odd/useful stretching effects..

unsure if its possible to rename , move , delete ,arrange samples on the device itself.
DiscoDevil
bimbom wrote:
quick question , more thoughts.

q1 - what have people used as storage , is it just usb sticks or can i do more with it? ... usb hard drive , usb hub with multiple mem sticks , controllers , normal keyboard (for renaming saves samples ).

i get the impression there is no midi cc / midi in control , maybe just note data for recording a pattern.

it seems geared towards using prepared loops and basic sequencing if needed , i dont think its a 'quick on the fly' type of machine that the octatrack can be , but thats not an issue to be honest...
its easy to make a bassline , sample it in from external midi device and use very quickly, then swap it onto a pre-prepared glitchy pattern. I've got some odd drum loops put together very quickly.

recording a 2 bar loop then editing the settings to a different tempo has some odd/useful stretching effects..

unsure if its possible to rename , move , delete ,arrange samples on the device itself.


I've used USB sticks and external harddrives with it. USB keyboards do not work. It's for storage only.

Many if not all of the functions in the SP-16 can be controlled externally via Midi CCs. There's a Midi supplement download on the Pioneer page that lists the corresponding CCs.

I use mostly prepared loops but the sequencing in it is fairly powerful with all kinds of per step automation, microtiming, etc. It's no octatrack but I am VERY thankful for that.

File management is nonexistent pretty much. You need to hook it up to a computer to manage the files.
bimbom
DiscoDevil wrote:

Many if not all of the functions in the SP-16 can be controlled externally via Midi CCs. There's a Midi supplement download on the Pioneer page that lists the corresponding CCs.


found them in the addendum_firmware15_operating manual .. thanks.
i'll see if i can do some basic midi controller thing for mixer/fx sends.

some short bits from my beat mangling.
https://soundcloud.com/re5etuk/sets/sp16
bimbom
todays thing

plugged in a midi twister controller via a usb/midi din converter.
the converter& controller needs power , which just happens to come out of the usb stick port on the pioneer.

so ive got a usb controller directly controlling the sp16 , powered by sp16
depending on the power required , it could probably power a boutique 101/106 etc and trigger it via midi.

i think im going to keep it for a while , slowly working out best ways to do various things , how to setup the envelopes depending if i use slices or just a single trigger , slices are good as they put a trigger on the sequencer that can be used for a duck filter on pads , otherwise i seem to waste a track on the bass drum trigger . setting up the envelope with sync , to the same length as a typical slice to reduce any pop noises ,

i setup a specific scene to store my midi sequences as i usually capture the audio , and don't want to lose the actual midi . a separate scene can be full of midi tracks and note data.

it would definitely benefit from encoders with buttons them them (a la elektron) and some options are a little cryptic / hidden , but there are a lot less options compared to other gear... which has lead to me doing a bit more actual music rather than fiddling/tweaking/figuring out bugs.

definately nice to be able to step modulate all of the delay settings too , can get some nice weird things going on by changing delay time per step.
mor4sso
really been wanting to try one of these out since release, and perfect sync to CDJs in clubs is a huge fringe benefit.

how's the live sampling firmware working out? how do you all feel about the recording quality?
Panason
Haven't updated mine to latest firmware. I read there's a bug with the touch strip where some hits don't trigger... I don't need live sampling either! From what I saw somewhere, it isn't a live looper. I wish Pioneer would have focused on other stuff.

I got it synced up to the rest of my setup and it is lush to have an extra hands-on sequencing machine as well as a great sounding sampler. I 've been using it to sequence a bass line on a monosynth, Push is sequencing some chords on a poly synth, and the Rytm is doing the drums, so all the main parts can be quickly triggered, muted or edited on the hardware with no need to touch the mouse or select tracks on Push smile

You can play live with the SP-16 with just one finger, everything is so easily accessible and the oversized panel and buttons make it a breeze cool

Quote:
it would definitely benefit from encoders with buttons them them (a la elektron)


The encoders on the SP are of superior quality though, and you have the touch screen directly above them.
mor4sso
yeah, it definitely seems like a performance instrument, which is great.

I'm really stuck between this and the TR8S as a secondary to my rytm. both have weird advantages for me.

tr8s is so immediate and knocks so damn hard.

sp-16 has a lot of cool little features that I want too.

hmmmmmmmmmm
dubonaire
Panason wrote:
Haven't updated mine to latest firmware. I read there's a bug with the touch strip where some hits don't trigger... I don't need live sampling either! From what I saw somewhere, it isn't a live looper. I wish Pioneer would have focused on other stuff.


Unfortunately the lack of live sampling was the missing feature that most of the users were ranting about. It was where all the noise was. I really don't care about live sampling and looping. I would get the Boss RC-505 for that in a flash, that's always going to be a better solution than the SP-16.

I don't think that touch strip bug is a big deal though, it occurs when you are using the touch strip and manually triggering pads at the same time. But I'm not the type who wants to be looking like mr magic fingers all the time. Maybe it is a big deal for some people.

I sometimes think that the amount of whinging about the SP-16 is doing more harm than good. If I was Pioneer I'd be thinking "man, we're never going to make these guys happy".

mor4sso - I've sampled but not in live mode, the audio quality is good. I don't see why live sampling would be any different. The sound coming out of this machine is one of its mot outstanding features.
Panason
It would be PIONEERING if they made the Ethernet port on the machine work with Ableton Link. They said they're looking into it. I think Link is the best we currently have for finally getting out of the inadequate MIDI technology.
bimbom
Over the last few days ive stuck with the sp16 and so far its working fine.
Lots of brain dump below which someone might find interesting.

Live sampling grabs a from the line in , you can tell it to grab the overlap too , it doesn’t trigger at the beginning of the bar, its instant , and keeps going for 4 bars or whatever you’ve defined.it wraps around till its finished grabbing I haven’t used it as i prefer my loops starting / ending at the beginning of a bar .

Resampling works ok but there is a tiny bit of latency on it when using ‘play’to start grabbing the audio (its got threshold or Play to trigger sampling) .its possible to trim the gap before saving the sample , but it also means to grab a 4 bar loop you need to sample at least 8 to ensure you get the actual loopable section (assuming there is no attack envelope).once its saved you’ll need to edit it on a pc to trim the beginning / end / anything.or do some slice things (see below)

Also, there is an arrangement screen which shows all of the tracks and triggers over the 4 bars on all tracks
You can easily grab the 1st 4 bars , grab them all , copy to the next bar and onwards , it can also overlap onto the next pattern to help make quick longer layout.
You can also grab a track of steps and post them onto another track , so if something is triaging midi channel 1 , you can grab that easily and copy onto track 2 , another midi channel.

You can edit an individual bar and slide the notes, add retrigs , or edit the entire pattern and move the triggers or apply an offset too.
As a drum sample , it has choke groups ... but you can also slice a sample via 16 buttons OR setup 2 slices .

You can set pattern change to step , bar , pattern .
So you can do that. ‘Rytm with sticky tape to instantly swap pattern’ with 1 finger.


Slices are defined by start , end points. They cant overlap or have a gap between them.
It’s not possible to trim/edit a sample , if there’s a gap you want to get rid of at the beginning, you’ll need to make a fake slice and go from slice 2 onwards.

A slice does have a minimum length , cant do it to 20 units long , i think its 128 / 256 or something like that

It’s not possible to remove a step modulation (parameter lock) , each is shows bu a red square around the parameter , the default value that you can setup.
If you hold the step and alter it. A red square will appear.
But to remove that , you’ll need to clear the entire step , or manually dial in the default value.

Overall.
It’s like a simpler elektron box a more xox style sampler / midi sequencer.
16 tracks , easily setup to 8 midi , 8 samples , ive been using 7 midi , 8 sample , 1 thru for external stereo inputs for grabbing external sounds.

Easy to resample internal sounds. Once sampled they can be saved to memory AND saved and resplace whatever is on the selected track.
Each track has its own effect type , (e.g. digitakt has global delay,reverb,comp,) , this has 1 effect per track , and an additional send/master effect.
The effect can be dialled in on the mixer page.
The master is on everything.

In terms of slices , the sequencer actually saves the start/end points of the sample , not the slice number.
So potentially you can slice it to 8 , make a loop , re slice it to 17 , and the old loop still places ,.. any new steps will use the slice based on 17.

The distortion effect is nice (not the Dave smith thing, but the master effect).
Range of effects is good considering its easy to resample and have one on each track , filter/compression / distortion / eq.

Slight annoying things.
Resmampling internal sounds has initial latency , so making a drum chain takes more editing.
You can slice to 16+ , 23 , 31 if you want.
But to access those slices past 16 you have to do a bit of menu digging , i cant see any easy way to just move the page while performing.
Same with scales , if it goes above the initial page of 16 , there’s a big of menu digging to move around.
.. cant remove parameter things. .. not always an issue but if they’re all default , you can alter the envelopes and the steps will update (i.e apply an lfo to attack , and it’ll go up/own but wont impact the ones with step modulation)

Lfo destination shows the entire list , ideally it might highlight the range of parameters on the current track , its unlikely i want to assign an lfo to an effect i’m not using.
Would love to be able to hook up a midi controller with each midi cc value used as a shortcut to an option/screen/menu/button.
So i could use (for example) cc 12 , value 6 to go direct to the envelope page , value 7 to the fx select , 9 to the sample browser ... just using 1 midi cc and an option to define 127 values to 127 UI destinations... I’d love this on any hardware . Even with the screen i want things quicker.

Broswer gives 2 options to view with , folder or file , the UI is stupid here , only 2 x options so there’s no need for the additional UI menu to select , it should just toggle , it’d be much quicker.... file allows you to do a quick search which is handy .

No copy/paste/rename of file names , so if you plan to make a lot of bassline samples , get used to typing it in a lot of times , or just give dummy names and fix it later on pc/mac.
mor4sso
So it only samples external audio with an audio trigger? You can't have it start sampling at the start of a sequence?

Sorry, I'm a little unclear based on your description.
mor4sso
its dope, got one today
dubonaire
mor4sso wrote:
its dope, got one today


Yep they are dope. How good is the sound?
DiscoDevil
New tune on the SP-16, TR-909, 808, Acidlab Drumatix, Yamaha Reface CP, Modor NF-1m.


[s]https://api.soundcloud.com/tracks/500839047[/s]
Panason
DiscoD is a smooth operator.. thumbs up

The SP-16 sounds so good and is so nice to use that I am considering selling my Rytm.. if only the Pioneer had triplets available on the step repeater it would be an easier decision.

Sometimes I miss conditional triggering but it's easy enough to use the arranger to create pattern chains for variations.
DiscoDevil
Panason wrote:
DiscoD is a smooth operator.. thumbs up

The SP-16 sounds so good and is so nice to use that I am considering selling my Rytm.. if only the Pioneer had triplets available on the step repeater it would be an easier decision.

Sometimes I miss conditional triggering but it's easy enough to use the arranger to create pattern chains for variations.



Keeping a secondary drum box around is a good plan, IMO. It gives you a lot of flexibility. Create the sounds on the Rytm and then sample them in the SP-16 or use both for live sets so you can keep your drum sounds fresh.
bimbom
mor4sso wrote:
So it only samples external audio with an audio trigger? You can't have it start sampling at the start of a sequence?

Sorry, I'm a little unclear based on your description.


It can start recording external ‘ internal from a button ( press start) or threshold

The live recording mode is external inputs , and records the length you want.
It has 3 options for how it loops/stop/continues to record .. a little tricky to explain.

I think it sound good , I like the distortion.
Reverb is a bit metallic at larger sizes.
Trigga
Hey, has anyone managed to get the live looping to work with a foot pedal? This would be so useful just like with the elektron Octatrack...
Really curious whether anyone has tried or made this work …
Cheers!
DiscoDevil
Trigga wrote:
Hey, has anyone managed to get the live looping to work with a foot pedal? This would be so useful just like with the elektron Octatrack...
Really curious whether anyone has tried or made this work …
Cheers!


There aren't any pedal inputs on the SP-16.
mor4sso
I have a rytm too and use both of them. good pair of drum machines in my opinion.

i got mine dumb cheap with a broken touch surface. so i haven't been able to dive into all that yet (you can navigate a lot with just the knob) until I pop it open and fix it. screen looks great though.

it sounds really good, is big, and is really fast and easy to use. external input is good and can get things nice and loud. p6 low pass is good, but the high pass is where its at w00t

all the CDJ similarities, like LINK, the GUI, and the USB sample transfer are smart extras.

havent been able to mess with any live sampling, FX, or any deeper functions because of the broken touch surface.

I really really dig it. makes me want to try the AS1 too considering how small it is.
module1
I am trying to use the SP-16 in a small portable songwriting/recording setup.
Filling it with beats/chords/stems/mixes from the studio and bringing the machine out to record vocalists, guitarists etc. I will bring final stems that only need a vocalist, or several building blocks to compose and co-write "from scratch"

I try to avoid a laptop. Mostly because my laptop is from 2006, but also as a songwriting/production philosophy:
I am fast at the SP, it is fun and efficient, sounds good, and with the limits of the machine you have to make choices and push the performer (no more "record 50 takes and decide later).

The 1min. limit is not a problem.
I will sharpen my resampling skills to turn the different takes into edits that can be used on the spot and dropped into my DAW when I return to the studio.
The recordings should be good enough for final productions and commercial release.

My question for you is both technical and practical.
# I need a small portable preamp/channelstrip for the input.
Which would suit a setup like this?

# Do you think the A/D converter is good enough for this kind of recording?
How does it compare to RME/Universal Audio?

# Any workflow suggestions?

# Is this a stupid idea? Should I just get a new laptop and a Babyface Pro?

Thank you
bimbom
If you just want to record vocals , maybe just a nice interface plugged into your phone / tablet
Sp16 seems big , bulky to carry around.
At least with laptop / interface you may not need plug socket and can do real-time processing , and actually rename / delete unwanted audio .
And an old one would still be good , u don’t need latest Apple / pc for this stuff ,
But when you want to start digging into audio / vocal / any type of processing you’ll need something , the sp16 won’t cut itwithout endless resampling.
Panason
I got this screen protector on ebay and it's good

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/253581993131

These guys make a range of screen protectors- this one is the full anti-shock & anti-glare version which makes the screen matte, at the cost of a very slight fuzziness.

Quote:
bringing the machine out to record vocalists, guitarists etc.


Get a portable recorder!
module1
Thank you - You are talking med out of it hihi
Good to hear your opinion and please keep on.

But

IOS is not an option. I cant work with apps - and hate the filesystem.
A portable recorder - Yes, it could be a simple solution and I`ve already got one, but you cant overdub or easily change the form of the backingtrack.
The size of the SP is not a problem

The whole idea is to benefit from the fluidity of the SP
Change the tempo = easy
Change the key = easy
Change the drums = easy
Record 4 choir tracks / copy to another scene / edit, fx / resample = easy
The singer’s got a brilliant idea regarding form = easy to program another.
I suddenly remember that magic chord from another session = Yes it is in the right folder (“magic chords”)on my USB stick.

I guess I want the recordproces to be as fun and fast as when I program or jam on the SP. And when You are working with other people it is so simple to change direction on the machine. I just get better ideas on this machine than I do with a computer.

You cant do basic sampleediting/ renaming etc and that is a problem, and You might end up with a lot of homeless audiofiles...I dont know.

What about the sound quality?

Thank you
Panason
if you read back on this thread you'll see that the sound quality is excellent.
module1
Panason wrote:
if you read back on this thread you'll see that the sound quality is excellent.


Yes, I love the sound. That is why I’m wondering how much benefit I would get from recording vocals with a RME babyface interface compared to the SP? Sorry, I know it is a stupid question..what is “better”?

Regarding the workflow, I will try to make a dummy setup with a preamp in the studio...

Great tip with the screenprotector!
Panason
IDK but i guess the quality is more dependent on mic and preamp rather than RME vs Pioneer. RME probably has a better AD converter since the Toraiz is made for dance music.
module1
Sure.
I will have to borrow some different preamps to test with the Pioneer
bimbom
I’ve bought a £1 screen protector for iPad from discount store and just cut it to fit various synths

Worked well for rytm, analog4, kp3+ , etc etc etc.. can get many screens protected for £1 , maybe the entire studio synth collection for £2 .
dubonaire
module1 wrote:
Panason wrote:
if you read back on this thread you'll see that the sound quality is excellent.


Yes, I love the sound. That is why I’m wondering how much benefit I would get from recording vocals with a RME babyface interface compared to the SP? Sorry, I know it is a stupid question..what is “better”?

Regarding the workflow, I will try to make a dummy setup with a preamp in the studio...

Great tip with the screenprotector!


Interestingly, while Pioneer lists the specs for its CDJs I can't find the specs for the SP-16 anywhere. Pioneer uses different quality converters in the different CDJ models, and the lack of information makes me wonder about the SP-16 DAC quality and ADC who knows. I easily hear the noise floor on the SP-16.

Why don't you try it out? If you are OK with the sound use it. Otherwise, get another recording device.
Trigga
Quote:

Trigga wrote:
Hey, has anyone managed to get the live looping to work with a foot pedal? This would be so useful just like with the elektron Octatrack...
Really curious whether anyone has tried or made this work …
Cheers!


There aren't any pedal inputs on the SP-16.


I meant via a Midi pedal...
DiscoDevil
If you've got a midi pedal that can send start/stop that will get you part way there.
module1
dubonaire wrote:

Interestingly, while Pioneer lists the specs for its CDJs I can't find the specs for the SP-16 anywhere. Pioneer uses different quality converters in the different CDJ models, and the lack of information makes me wonder about the SP-16 DAC quality and ADC who knows. I easily hear the noise floor on the SP-16.

Why don't you try it out? If you are OK with the sound use it. Otherwise, get another recording device.


Exactly - I would like to know more about the converter quality.
I will try it out but need to lend / borrow a GOOD matching preamp first and wondered if anybody else had tried something like this.
In the studio I my interface is a Midas Venice F32..not portable.
dubonaire
module1 wrote:
dubonaire wrote:

Interestingly, while Pioneer lists the specs for its CDJs I can't find the specs for the SP-16 anywhere. Pioneer uses different quality converters in the different CDJ models, and the lack of information makes me wonder about the SP-16 DAC quality and ADC who knows. I easily hear the noise floor on the SP-16.

Why don't you try it out? If you are OK with the sound use it. Otherwise, get another recording device.


Exactly - I would like to know more about the converter quality.
I will try it out but need to lend / borrow a GOOD matching preamp first and wondered if anybody else had tried something like this.
In the studio I my interface is a Midas Venice F32..not portable.


So if you are going to go out of a pre-amp into the SP-16, you are still going to go through the converter. So why don't you find a good vocal recording you like and feed that from a good source into the SP-16 and see if you like what you hear.
module1
dubonaire wrote:

So if you are going to go out of a pre-amp into the SP-16, you are still going to go through the converter. So why don't you find a good vocal recording you like and feed that from a good source into the SP-16 and see if you like what you hear.


Great idea!
I will find some of my well known tracks and feed them to SP -> compare with my usual chain.
Fun
mor4sso
people get too wrapped up in specs and features.

just learn to work the gear that you enjoy using. theres no right way to do this shit. inherent character is there regardless of a spec sheet
bimbom
regarding midi -
each track can send multiple midi notes , , they share the same midi channel , velocity , gate time.

you can configure the 16 tracks to be any combination of thru (audio in which can be sent to a track fx and master fx ) , midi , sample ..

resampling is straight forward , easier than octatrack (although not as capable as weirdness , though it can do some stuff similar).

if you find one for £500 to £600 , its worth trying.
Panason
This machine has had a bit of a tragic fate.. misunderstood and lost in a clueless crowd asking for all the things that the machine does not need.

On GS people are still bitching about how you can't "truncate samples" on the machine. Apparently they have not actually used it or read the manual and have not seen that you can set sample start and end points with an accuracy up to almost single samples... not to mention the amp envelope....

Then you have the DJs asking for things that digital DJ mixers do... It's sad and I hope the dev team at Pioneer will keep focused and continue with the good stuff. The additions to the firmware since the machine was launched are impressive.

I suppose it would have sucked on launch and that's where it got the bad rep.
dubonaire
Panason wrote:
This machine has had a bit of a tragic fate.. misunderstood and lost in a clueless crowd asking for all the things that the machine does not need.

On GS people are still bitching about how you can't "truncate samples" on the machine. Apparently they have not actually used it or read the manual and have not seen that you can set sample start and end points with an accuracy up to almost single samples... not to mention the amp envelope....

Then you have the DJs asking for things that digital DJ mixers do... It's sad and I hope the dev team at Pioneer will keep focused and continue with the good stuff. The additions to the firmware since the machine was launched are impressive.

I suppose it would have sucked on launch and that's where it got the bad rep.


No, it didn't suck on launch. I bought it maybe six months after launch, I can't remember exactly, but first OS and I immediately found it great to use.

I agree with you that the hate seems to be from people who don't even use the damn thing. Editing samples on it is super easy. Pioneer published an upgrade pathway and then didn't follow it. People have acted like that is an inexcusable betrayal. I don't even know if those people make music. Maybe they are even competitor shills. Who knows?

It is compellingly enjoyable to use. It's exceptionally well laid out. I love its size, the interface and UI is great. Scale function is so much fun to jam chords.

The number one limitation I would like them to address is one effect per channel. I use filters a lot on samples so they fit in the mix, and I would love to be able to set up a filter, delay and reverb chain on a sample. This is the biggest for me. These are essential FX chains for dance music. The workaround is to resample, but that is frustrating.
bimbom
It’s a mixed bag of a box

Heavily relies on a pc / mac to get samples on it ‘ ready for it , even to rename and delete them.
Expects to be some type of box for a dj who quite often has a device that can already play samples / stems / tracks , dial in fx and filter sweep.
Edges towards having midi sequencing for internal and external gear but misses some of the basics .
It tries to do parameter locks but misses some functionality we’ve become used to for many years.
Marketed as ‘can do everything ‘ to all markets .. it might’ve been able to ..
Bad software support that made most people unhappy , especially if they paid the launch price. They’re appearing 2nd hand in the uk at under half retail price , which is about right

They’re not unique to launching something too early , I looked through ‘reviews’ when it first appeared and they don’t seem to accurately reflect the device , but again that’s no surprise either .

I do find it a bit frustrating at times , I put in nice sample chains and they don’t quite work properly , but it’s probaby me.
But I also find octatrack and almost all my gear frustrating at times .
It’s very usable but most functions feel like they could be much better with a bit more effort from pioneer.
dubonaire
bimbom wrote:
It’s a mixed bag of a box

Heavily relies on a pc / mac to get samples on it ‘ ready for it , even to rename and delete them.
Expects to be some type of box for a dj who quite often has a device that can already play samples / stems / tracks , dial in fx and filter sweep.
Edges towards having midi sequencing for internal and external gear but misses some of the basics .
It tries to do parameter locks but misses some functionality we’ve become used to for many years.
Marketed as ‘can do everything ‘ to all markets .. it might’ve been able to ..
Bad software support that made most people unhappy , especially if they paid the launch price. They’re appearing 2nd hand in the uk at under half retail price , which is about right

They’re not unique to launching something too early , I looked through ‘reviews’ when it first appeared and they don’t seem to accurately reflect the device , but again that’s no surprise either .

I do find it a bit frustrating at times , I put in nice sample chains and they don’t quite work properly , but it’s probaby me.
But I also find octatrack and almost all my gear frustrating at times .
It’s very usable but most functions feel like they could be much better with a bit more effort from pioneer.


Sorry, I think this is ridiculous.
Panason
bimbom wrote:
, I put in nice sample chains and they don’t quite work properly , but it’s probaby me.


What is the problem? I haven't tried sample chains yet but I thought you can just p-lock the sample start and end points, and that's it?
bimbom
If you put things on a grid , you can easily use slice . And it’s able to slice to whatever number you need , 5, 9 , 13 if you want .. they’re just equal across whatever sample you load up
Start and end points can be altered on each one ( there cannot be an empty gap ) which is ok as the screen is nice and you can zoom in

And when recording into the step sequencer is stores start / end point , which means you can reslice it , and the sequence will still sound ok. ( I know I’m stating the obvious as you have one too , I just hate hearing a click which wasn’t there when I put them together in ableton , so i’m Still tweaking things)


There’s a lot in the response that ‘this is rediculous ‘ covers , some are facts , much is my opinion , if you don’t agree it’s fine too but I’m not sure writing down my opinion is ‘wrong’ , it just might not match yours.

My expectation that when pressing play to instantly start recording wouldn’t introduce a 100/128 sample gap at the beginning might not be matched by many , or its inability to move start point on slice 1 off zero point to compensate , they’re minor details and to fix that I often make slice 1 try to cover that gap and not use it .

Yes you can get samples into it via audio ins , you can edit it/trim it before saving the file , at which point you can name it (it’ll be in a set recorded folder on device) .
After that point it can’t be renamed , moved , trimmed again unless you resample it or use Mac/pc.
Not a big deal I guess , but an area that could be improved in my opinion , as I’d class being able to rename , move a file is not beyond the capability of the device.

So fair enough , my comments might be rediculous , I could easily write chickens are rediculous.
I’m just voicing my thoughts on an electronic device , if you are physically and mentally so attached to yours that it brings mental anguish to read this , I’m sorry. If you spent your life’s work on this device , coding it at the expense of family and friends , I can understand your response , if it’s just another electrical device you purchased , just like a kettle or toaster ? There are other more important things that might be termed ‘rediculous ‘
Panason
Yeah, it does suck that it doesn't find zero point crossings and it's hard to avoid clicks sometimes. Time to put a request in at the Pioneer forum!

I think you can remove the clicks using the amp envelope to add a touch of attack or setting release to 0 and reducing decay time?

Does the sampling delay also happen when re-sampling?

I thought sample chains were a neat idea but in practice I would find it confusing eventually. For me, it's good NOT to have access to lots of samples in one scene so that I don't end up endlessly trying out different samples for each pattern.
bimbom
i do often tweak the amp to get rid of clicks , when all the samples are the same length its no problem , but mixing long/short samples starts to introduce more things to edit each time.

yes, sample chains are great , but the need to have tracks organised in a simpler way to help mute/unmute and arrangement can mean that a better use of a sample chain might be just only have bass drums together , rather than an entire drum kit on one chain. .. depends how its being effected / eq'd etc.... in some respects sp16 makes that easier as it only has start/end with no gap , which is ideally how the chain is made, otherwise its a bit messy.

much of my stuff i try to share with octatrack/digitakt , so i'm leaning towards simpler chains , regular grids , grouped by type of sound .. octachainer is a nice tool to do this.... i tried triggering them in sequence to create a chain by resampling ... i tried threshold and trigger but i dont seem to get zero space at the beginning in each one ..

and in general i rarely hit any memory limit on any device when working on a single track.
also i think , when rendering off each track into a sample theres a gap too, i'll have to look / check .. offline rendering should at least be able to get things in order before spitting out an audio file .. maybe thats what i should be using instead of 'live' resampling.
dubonaire
bimbom wrote:
If you put things on a grid , you can easily use slice . And it’s able to slice to whatever number you need , 5, 9 , 13 if you want .. they’re just equal across whatever sample you load up
Start and end points can be altered on each one ( there cannot be an empty gap ) which is ok as the screen is nice and you can zoom in

And when recording into the step sequencer is stores start / end point , which means you can reslice it , and the sequence will still sound ok. ( I know I’m stating the obvious as you have one too , I just hate hearing a click which wasn’t there when I put them together in ableton , so i’m Still tweaking things)


There’s a lot in the response that ‘this is rediculous ‘ covers , some are facts , much is my opinion , if you don’t agree it’s fine too but I’m not sure writing down my opinion is ‘wrong’ , it just might not match yours.

My expectation that when pressing play to instantly start recording wouldn’t introduce a 100/128 sample gap at the beginning might not be matched by many , or its inability to move start point on slice 1 off zero point to compensate , they’re minor details and to fix that I often make slice 1 try to cover that gap and not use it .

Yes you can get samples into it via audio ins , you can edit it/trim it before saving the file , at which point you can name it (it’ll be in a set recorded folder on device) .
After that point it can’t be renamed , moved , trimmed again unless you resample it or use Mac/pc.
Not a big deal I guess , but an area that could be improved in my opinion , as I’d class being able to rename , move a file is not beyond the capability of the device.

So fair enough , my comments might be rediculous , I could easily write chickens are rediculous.
I’m just voicing my thoughts on an electronic device , if you are physically and mentally so attached to yours that it brings mental anguish to read this , I’m sorry. If you spent your life’s work on this device , coding it at the expense of family and friends , I can understand your response , if it’s just another electrical device you purchased , just like a kettle or toaster ? There are other more important things that might be termed ‘rediculous ‘


Yes the ridiculous comment was a bit ridiculous. I apologise.

Actually the main point I had an issue with is that it was marketed 'can do everything' to all markets. Here is a quote from Sound on Sound for example, which is generally positive about everything it reviews: "In any case the SP‑16 has a fairly focussed drum sampler feature-set, and doesn’t overlap that much into production workstation territory; instead Pioneer are carving a new niche with instruments that enable DJs and EDM performers to be more actively engaged in their sets."

I never got the impression it was being marketed as an MPC type sampling workstation. I always knew what I was buying, and this is the absurdity of the whole internet outrage about the machine. Meanwhile there are plenty of musicians successfully using the SP-16 in live sets.

I enjoy fleshing out new tunes on the SP-16, but it does have limitations in that area.
Panason
What would be really great is if the firmware was leaked out so someone else can improve on it like what happened with the JJOS for MPC.
dubonaire
Panason wrote:
What would be really great is if the firmware was leaked out so someone else can improve on it like what happened with the JJOS for MPC.


I'm confident that we will see further releases, but I suspect there are some hardware limitations to what we will see. Even if it is just two effects in the chain I would be happy.
Panason
Presumably it is limited by DSP resources so adding another FX slot would mean less of something else. I would be OK with only 8 tracks having dual FX and the remaining 8 having none, or even a dynamic allocation of FX slots so you could, if you wanted, stack all of them on one track and have none on the others.

Personally I'd like to see an option for muting to work on the sequencer level rather than the audio /MIDI level so sounds do no get instantly cut off when muting....

Naming of MIDI tracks would be fantastic too, since there is already a virtual qwerty keyboard implemented.

And copy/paste individual steps is sorely missing!
DiscoDevil
I had a long talk with a Pioneer rep recently. A new update is for sure on the way with some exciting functionality but no new FX slots or any new "features" beyond some things that should have been taken care of long ago. I brought up a lot of my concerns and he took notes and said he'd make sure "they" would be notified.


For my needs, this next update will cover like 70% of my complaints as it stands and maybe more by the time it's released.
Panason
Oooh, come on say more!! Any MIDI improvements??? Track naming?!?!
Panason
The other thing I'd like to see is deeper AS-1 integration. You can only access a handful of the AS-1 synthesis parameters from the SP-16... That synth sounds good and has a friendly price but the lack of knobs is a turn-off.
bimbom
Panason wrote:
The other thing I'd like to see is deeper AS-1 integration. You can only access a handful of the AS-1 synthesis parameters from the SP-16... That synth sounds good and has a friendly price but the lack of knobs is a turn-off.


I could understand them doing it to help shift a few more as-1’s , but making whatever function generic , like more cc’s , automation for external gear would benefit far more users than those few with both sp16 + as-1 .

Any rep worth their salary would always listen , he’s representing the company and is expected to be positive , just like the lobbyists who make money off Tabbaco (I know it’s not an exact comparison , no one is getting cancer from lack of firmware updates ) they’d never acknowledge the Health issues and always be seen to take feedback .
, if the dev team are truly unaware of the issues / basics that are missing , and rely on users to point them out , then it would truly show how out of touch they are.

It’s a usable box , I’m not expecting any more , as with everything , if it truly annoyed me beyond my limit , it’d be sold.
And I know that pointing out shortcomings on forums actually makes that harder
Panason
Of course being able to define other hardware instruments and name the CCs would be PIONEERING for such a machine.

The various omissions and thoughtless implementations (eg muting) shows that they clearly need to be told what to do! I think the design team get their clues from DJs and generic EDM cut & paste producers wanting to do quick and easy stuff working with pre-made sample loops.


It's just weird that they did such a half-assed job with the As-1 integration which is their own product in the same product range. I think someone in the team was determined to keep it simple and they decided not to present the user with a full list of the AS-1 parameters because DJs are supposed to be dumb or something...
There is the problem here with the SP's confused identity : DJ toy VS studio instrument.
Muzone
Panason wrote:
....... DJs and generic EDM cut & paste producers wanting to do quick and easy stuff working with pre-made sample loops.


aka their core market meh

As Dubonaire said a few posts up, it's clearly a beat based box rather than a holy grail production machine and should be appreciated for what it is rather than criticised for what is was never meant to be........
DiscoDevil
I think if people had shut the f**k up about 32 second sample limit and live sampling, we'd have gotten the updates to fix the stuff that really needs fixing a long time ago. They got seriously sidetracked responding to the 32second and live sampling ROAR that they have let basic things go unaddressed for far too long. Those 2 "features" alone have set the box back almost 2 years now and people are still not happy.
DiscoDevil
Now those same people that screamed about limitations for months have all sold the SP-16 because it turns out, it's not the limitations of the SP that prevent them from making music but the fact that they suck. So NOW Pioneer can finally start addressing the real issues with the machine.
revtor
DiscoDevil wrote:
I think if people had shut the f**k up about 32 second sample limit and live sampling, we'd have gotten the updates to fix the stuff that really needs fixing a long time ago. They got seriously sidetracked responding to the 32second and live sampling ROAR that they have let basic things go unaddressed for far too long. Those 2 "features" alone have set the box back almost 2 years now and people are still not happy.


THIS X10. 64 seconds.. what a waste. It’s not a CDJ for F sake. But that’s what you get when 90% of your customers are DJ’s.
dubonaire
DiscoDevil wrote:
I think if people had shut the f**k up about 32 second sample limit and live sampling, we'd have gotten the updates to fix the stuff that really needs fixing a long time ago. They got seriously sidetracked responding to the 32second and live sampling ROAR that they have let basic things go unaddressed for far too long. Those 2 "features" alone have set the box back almost 2 years now and people are still not happy.


That's probably true, although the other thing that got people frustrated was the release of the DJS-1000. That shocked me a bit and made the whole thing confusing. I'm glad I got the SP-16 because I like the size and the drive and filter sections, but if the DJS-1000 had appeared at the same time I imagine I would probably have got that instead.
Panason
So people wanted live sampling so they can use it as a looper in their DJ sets? Don't most DJ mixers have loopers these days?

And more than 32 seconds to .... do what exactly?
DiscoDevil
dubonaire wrote:
That's probably true, although the other thing that got people frustrated was the release of the DJS-1000. That shocked me a bit and made the whole thing confusing. I'm glad I got the SP-16 because I like the size and the drive and filter sections, but if the DJS-1000 had appeared at the same time I imagine I would probably have got that instead.


No 8 outs, no analog filter = no sale for me. The DJS-1000 is interesting but I would have never considered buying it even if the SP-16 didn't exist.
dubonaire
DiscoDevil wrote:
dubonaire wrote:
That's probably true, although the other thing that got people frustrated was the release of the DJS-1000. That shocked me a bit and made the whole thing confusing. I'm glad I got the SP-16 because I like the size and the drive and filter sections, but if the DJS-1000 had appeared at the same time I imagine I would probably have got that instead.


No 8 outs, no analog filter = no sale for me. The DJS-1000 is interesting but I would have never considered buying it even if the SP-16 didn't exist.


I got mine as a sample unit to go with my DJ setup, and then after getting it changed my thinking and use of it. So I would have got the DJS-1000, but I'm glad i didn't.
bimbom
32 seconds in a single sample seemed fine to me
As mentioned before , if this is going to accompany a dj device , then the strengths of most do devices is playing long samples , stems , fx , traktor can resample from the little I’ve used it l no idea about rekordbox / serato , I guess they can too.

Anyway, it’s ok , quick to figure it out , I think new users will find a few omissions a bit weird , we’ll see if it’s supported / will be interesting if they ever make another type of this device , probably more difficult than they imagined , even with their experience of dj gear they’ve done ( which can in themselves be quite complicated )
mor4sso
its a big volca sample...

thats a good thing. w00t
darenager
^+1 on both points. That is pretty much how I see it, good at what it does, a bit limited, but pretty capable and great sounding.
mor4sso
opened mine up and replaced the touch surface.

you can do a lot without the screen but it obviously opens it up. really fast to work with. love it. plus, it just sounds so good and loud.

this thing is very quickly becoming my favorite drum machine smile
h4ndcrafted
Unless I’m missing something, I can’t seem to copy a sound to a different pad, that’s probably the most annoying thing for me.

I just look as it as an excellent drum machine and it can take care of bass and incidentals and fx shots too.

A dedicated gate would be a want in the fx section for me.


Glad to hear it’s going to get another update, I had bought it thinking that it was probably not going to get anymore. Hopefully that will get it the bit more love it deserves.
dubonaire
h4ndcrafted wrote:
Unless I’m missing something, I can’t seem to copy a sound to a different pad, that’s probably the most annoying thing for me.


Yeah you can you can use the swap function, look it up.
h4ndcrafted
Ah teach me to assume, thought that would just swap rather than copy, I’ll RTFM.
dubonaire
h4ndcrafted wrote:
Ah teach me to assume, thought that would just swap rather than copy, I’ll RTFM.


Yeah it really means swap a sound from one pad to another. It's actually a useful tool if you are writing a song in the SP-16.
Panason
Just found this

https://djtechtools.com/2017/07/19/decoding-pioneer-pro-link-connect-c djs-ableton-link/

Quote:
The closed ecosystem is totally changed with beat-link-trigger, a small java program written by James Elliott of Deep Symmetry. Beat-link-trigger registers your computer as a CDJ on the Pro Link network, getting access to all the data shared between the players. And just like that, you have access to everything a CDJ sees


Maybe it will work to sync the SP-16 to Ableton (or another DAW that has Ableton Link) using an ethernet cable if you have no spare MIDI or USB ports. Maybe the clock will be tighter!

(over USB I had to set a -87ms offset in Ableton clock output to sync properly)

In the case of the SP16 , I don't think anything other than clock and start/stop is sent over this..
bimbom
If I’ve got ableton loaded I’m not sure I’d bother turning the sp16 on .
But I’m sure that java app will lead to something useful
h4ndcrafted
DiscoDevil wrote:
I had a long talk with a Pioneer rep recently. A new update is for sure on the way with some exciting functionality but no new FX slots or any new "features" beyond some things that should have been taken care of long ago. I brought up a lot of my concerns and he took notes and said he'd make sure "they" would be notified.


For my needs, this next update will cover like 70% of my complaints as it stands and maybe more by the time it's released.


Don’t suppose he gave you a time frame ?
bimbom
they had a roadmap of features a while ago and when they kept missing the deadlines and disappointing the community they scrapped it (this is just a very basic summary of what i've read , i'm a recent purchaser too so those that have been through it over the last few years might have a better overview) .

so i think it'll be released when its released , if its released.
DiscoDevil
h4ndcrafted wrote:
DiscoDevil wrote:
I had a long talk with a Pioneer rep recently. A new update is for sure on the way with some exciting functionality but no new FX slots or any new "features" beyond some things that should have been taken care of long ago. I brought up a lot of my concerns and he took notes and said he'd make sure "they" would be notified.


For my needs, this next update will cover like 70% of my complaints as it stands and maybe more by the time it's released.


Don’t suppose he gave you a time frame ?


No time frame unfortunately. I'm hoping this winter.
Panason
The larger they are, they slower they move. Corporatosaurus.

I guess internal communications and decision making processes are probably rather inflexible and prone to fuck up due to people in the hierarchy who have little connection with the actual product.... Pioneer's website and forum is a little reminder of that.
itsritual
What are your thoughts on the SP now with all the updates? Pros & cons? Was watching videos of it on YouTube and it seems like the perfect sampler for me. Does all the things I like about my Octatrack, but seems easier to use, and has pads and more outputs! If its like I expect it to be, it seems like a very underrated machine!

Edit: nvm! Finally had time to read through this thread. Can't wait to play with it!
itsritual
Ok, so far my main concerns from reading are sample editing, file management, and MIDI thru/sync problems.

By far my biggest concern is being able to truncate and edit a sample. People have said you can't truncate, and that there will be gaps at the beginning of the sample. But in this video, isn't that exactly what he's doing? That's all I really need to do anyway, and if the stuff in the video is actually implemented, I really don't think it's a problem at all.

As far as file management, how easy is it to organize files? I've read its much easier with a computer. So if I sampled a kick and store that in my kick folder, how long and tedious is that process with a computer? Is it something you do on the spot, or do you just save all the samples and organize after a session?

How bad is the MIDI sync? people said its only really usable as a master clock, but if it has no MIDI through, I much rather keep my MPC as master.
Panason
There is nothing wrong with MIDI sync so long as you can offset your master clock. Mine lags behind around 85ms when synced to Ableton. I have left it running for hours and it did not go out of sync. Obviously this lag is utter shit if you want to sync it to a drum machine but the clock output when used as a master seems solid.

It will not pass the clock signal through when slaved to external clock but this is not a good idea anyway (use a powered through box for that). Otherwise MIDI through works normally as far as I remember.

A lot of the bad rap this machine has got is from early firmware (it was released in a bit of a mess) as well as clueless people from the DJ world/ Gearslutz / whatever...

You cannot edit samples on the machine. You can select start and end points for each sample and can change those on every step of a sequence. It will go down to a few samples in terms of resolution but will not find zero crossing points so you may have to deal with some clicks (remove with amp envelope).
Or you can slice the sample on the machine and sequence/play the slices with the pads.

Unfortunately you cannot reverse samples on specific sequence steps as you can with the Elektron gear.

Sample management with the computer is excellent because you don't need to use some shitty app. The SP-16 appears to your computer as a USB drive and you just drop your samples in the Samples folders, with sub-folders if needed. Transfer speed is just as as good as a decent USB stick.

When browsing samples on the machine you can use the excellent encoder to scroll and click on it to jump to the next folder. After using Elektron gear, the UI experience on this is like stepping into a Mercedes after an old Skoda.

It is not a live looper or a sampling workstation and needs a couple of fixes and additions/improvements but it works solidly and sounds superb if you want fat and chunky sound....
revtor
Two things I would like to see the most are recording from external midi controller and for tracks or patterns to be longer than four bars in length. I keep my Mpc for these reasons. I wish the 32 second limit wasn’t made such a big deal of early on, maybe then I could’ve focused on a bit better implementation of the basics.

It’s a fun loop creation tool, but it’s not really a great sampler and it’s not really a great sequencer. But it is really fun.
Panason
Just uploaded a quick and dirty jam with some crunchy house stuff I been werking on with the sp-16.

I overused the distortion meh and it is too long

[s]https://soundcloud.com/treebase/got-baes[/s]
Shrigg
Panason wrote:
Just uploaded a quick and dirty jam with some crunchy house stuff I been werking on with the sp-16.

I overused the distortion meh and it is too long

[s]https://soundcloud.com/user-286960302/got-baes[/s]


Nice! I could work that into a jackin house set for sure.
Panason
Thanks! I'll do a better recording and put it on my Bandcamp in the next few days thumbs up
Mirrorad
Really really really hoping for a firmware update this week that includes the ability to delete files from the internal drive.
dubonaire
Mirrorad wrote:
Really really really hoping for a firmware update this week that includes the ability to delete files from the internal drive.


What makes you think there is an update this week?
Mirrorad
dubonaire wrote:
Mirrorad wrote:
Really really really hoping for a firmware update this week that includes the ability to delete files from the internal drive.


What makes you think there is an update this week?


I have no inside source. I'm just dreaming. Seems like they released an update the week of Thanksgiving in the past. Could be wrong. But now would be a smart time for Pioneer to take advantage of holiday shopping and lure back some of the on-the-fence folks who gave up on the SP-16 already.
Panason
Visiting the Pioneer website is painful. waah
dan_p
Mirrorad wrote:
But now would be a smart time for Pioneer to take advantage of holiday shopping and lure back some of the on-the-fence folks who gave up on the SP-16 already.


I'm not sure they will be selling many regardless of holiday shopping. I've been advertising mine with an AS-1 for £800 and no takers, that's less than half retail! I can't see anyone buying them at any where near retail.
Panason
I think all the coloured LEDs and similar appearance to the Roland AIRA stuff turned people away...
Then they very quickly released the DJ gear with similar features (minus the analog filter) so they didn't really have a clearly defined target market for this.

It's got much more than the average DJ needs (and can be too wide for club use) and it looks too much like an expensive toy from a producer's POV. I know I just laughed at its retail price and never gave it a chance when I saw it in the shop . It's still on display in my local shop and I kept walking past it and not even looking for a whole year after its release until I read about it from a couple of folks here. Then I actually tried it and listened to the output, and I was sold immediately.
Mirrorad
Panason wrote:
I think all the coloured LEDs and similar appearance to the Roland AIRA stuff turned people away...
Then they very quickly released the DJ gear with similar features (minus the analog filter) so they didn't really have a clearly defined target market for this.

It's got much more than the average DJ needs (and can be too wide for club use) and it looks too much like an expensive toy from a producer's POV. I know I just laughed at its retail price and never gave it a chance when I saw it in the shop . It's still on display in my local shop and I kept walking past it and not even looking for a whole year after its release until I read about it from a couple of folks here. Then I actually tried it and listened to the output, and I was sold immediately.


The sound quality is top-notch, and it's really intuitive and easy to use. It is so close to being a true standalone machine. The only thing in my mind that falls short is that you have to connect to a laptop to delete samples. There are other file mgmt features missing, but there are workarounds. But as a standalone product, there's no way to work around filling up the internal drive with unneeded files. This really should have been fixed several updates ago. I guess it's an update that doesn't have much sex appeal. But the SP-16 already has enough of that. I need some basics worked out.
Panason
What I'm missing the most at the moment is snap-to-zero-point for picking start/end or slice points. Sometimes there are clicks that are impossible to get rid of with the amp envelope. You can hear a few at that track I posted earlier. I have to load the offending sample in the computer and slice it up there and then re-create the patterns with the new slices. Dead Banana
bimbom
dan_p wrote:
Mirrorad wrote:
But now would be a smart time for Pioneer to take advantage of holiday shopping and lure back some of the on-the-fence folks who gave up on the SP-16 already.


I'm not sure they will be selling many regardless of holiday shopping. I've been advertising mine with an AS-1 for £800 and no takers, that's less than half retail! I can't see anyone buying them at any where near retail.


I suspect you’d be better to sell separately , I’m quite sure they’d sell reasonably quickly for 600/350 plus shipping , although a higher price in total , both are still bargains at those prices .
I bought/ sold my sp16 recently for around 600 .. getting near Xmas things are also slowing down .
Mirrorad
Panason wrote:
What I'm missing the most at the moment is snap-to-zero-point for picking start/end or slice points.


That would be ACE! I would love to see that also.
robertmcalister
Couple of questions for you experienced owners out there before I buy.

1. Does the Toraiz send start-stop messages from it's transport while in external MIDI sync?

2. Can it send MIDI notes while in external sync? (read somewhere it could not at some point)

3. Is there a local control on/off?
Panason
Yes to 2.

I'm away so can't check the other points but I think it's a no for 1.

You can disable sending and/or receiving MIDI notes and CCs but don't remember seeing a Local on/off setting. Check the manuals on Pioneer's site..
robertmcalister
Thanks Panason! There is no reference to a local off in the manuals but I trust users more to ask.

Panason wrote:
Yes to 2
robertmcalister wrote:
1. Does the Toraiz send start-stop messages from it's transport while in external MIDI sync?

2. Can it send MIDI notes while in external sync? (read somewhere it could not at some point)

3. Is there a local control on/off?
Panason
I thought of another use for good old BOME MIDI Translator... ( I swear I don't work for them, lol)

Since the SP-16 has a control template for the AS-1 built-in, with full parameter names, and since most synths except FM synths are using the same subtractive architecture.... you can use the AS-1 template to control other synths.
Once you know which of your synth's parameters you want to control, create an AS-1 track on the SP-16 and go to the control section where MIDI CCs are assiged. Just pick similar parameter names from the list that comes up when you tap on a CC box and assign them to the encoders.
Then fire up BOME and use the MIDI learn function to quickly create translators to convert the CCs to the right ones for your synth!! Miley Cyrus

You can then feed the synth into the SP-16's inputs for a wicked standalone groove station!
DiscoDevil
My latest live performance. This is about 70% Toraiz SP-16. The OB-6 and Modor NF-1m are being sequenced and played live by the SP-16 along with lots of my own sample loops and hits. Acidlab Drumatix and Avalon Bassline providing support.



Panason
Good stuff DD. My only reservation about the SP in live use is the muting behaviour- how sounds are instantly cut when you hit the mute... I suppose you don't use that a lot.

Guess the rumoured update isn't gonna happen ?
DiscoDevil
Panason wrote:
Good stuff DD. My only reservation about the SP in live use is the muting behaviour- how sounds are instantly cut when you hit the mute... I suppose you don't use that a lot.

Guess the rumoured update isn't gonna happen ?


Thanks!

Yeah, I've found workarounds for nearly all of the "quirks". I don't use mutes and just program the patterns accordingly. The SP-16 is most definitely intended to be a live performance piece and that's where it excels aside from the "wtf" stuff.

I still have faith the update is coming.
h4ndcrafted
I so hope youre right on that update.

Whats your work around for undo function ?
DiscoDevil
h4ndcrafted wrote:
I so hope youre right on that update.

Whats your work around for undo function ?


I just never make mistakes. smile
Panason
It looks like you can actually mute sequencer steps (at least on MIDI tracks). When you turn velocity to zero for a step, the display above the encoder will read "OFF" and will not send out a note.. I think this also disables any parameter tweaks for that step.
mor4sso
anyone know if its possible to live record parameter changes while the sequence is running?

similarly to playing in pads?
DiscoDevil
mor4sso wrote:
anyone know if its possible to live record parameter changes while the sequence is running?

similarly to playing in pads?


Yes. Hit record and pretty much everything you do except the controls on the analog filter section is recorded.
mor4sso
DiscoDevil wrote:
mor4sso wrote:
anyone know if its possible to live record parameter changes while the sequence is running?

similarly to playing in pads?


Yes. Hit record and pretty much everything you do except the controls on the analog filter section is recorded.


hmmm, i figured it would be that easy but mine doesn't seem to record the parameter changes.
DiscoDevil
mor4sso wrote:
DiscoDevil wrote:
mor4sso wrote:
anyone know if its possible to live record parameter changes while the sequence is running?

similarly to playing in pads?


Yes. Hit record and pretty much everything you do except the controls on the analog filter section is recorded.


hmmm, i figured it would be that easy but mine doesn't seem to record the parameter changes.


Hmmm... I guess I usually do it by holding the step button down and making the change. It can only record a parameter on an active step if that makes sense?
h4ndcrafted
There isn’t any kind of slew, it’s stepped. I think the digital insert filter has a glide ?

I still have mixed feelings about this box. They got the priorities right, good output sound with multi outs.

But at this point in the game , it doesn’t compare to the MPCs or Elektron even the Korg , save a much more professional sounding and made machine.

It only needs some basic to make it compete, I wonder why they gave up ?

I can’t believe any new ones will sell once the force is released.
DiscoDevil
h4ndcrafted wrote:
There isn’t any kind of slew, it’s stepped. I think the digital insert filter has a glide ?

I still have mixed feelings about this box. They got the priorities right, good output sound with multi outs.

But at this point in the game , it doesn’t compare to the MPCs or Elektron even the Korg , save a much more professional sounding and made machine.

It only needs some basic to make it compete, I wonder why they gave up ?

I can’t believe any new ones will sell once the force is released.


Depending what you're trying to do, it destroys anything else ever made but it's not an MPC or an Elektron, it's its own thing. It does stuff that none of the other boxes do. I stopped getting caught up on what it doesn't do long ago and have been making music and performing with it in a way that is impossible with any other box.
h4ndcrafted
DiscoDevil wrote:
h4ndcrafted wrote:
There isn’t any kind of slew, it’s stepped. I think the digital insert filter has a glide ?

I still have mixed feelings about this box. They got the priorities right, good output sound with multi outs.

But at this point in the game , it doesn’t compare to the MPCs or Elektron even the Korg , save a much more professional sounding and made machine.

It only needs some basic to make it compete, I wonder why they gave up ?

I can’t believe any new ones will sell once the force is released.


Depending what you're trying to do, it destroys anything else ever made but it's not an MPC or an Elektron, it's its own thing. It does stuff that none of the other boxes do. I stopped getting caught up on what it doesn't do long ago and have been making music and performing with it in a way that is impossible with any other box.


Im trying to keep it that way, but it’s gets frustrating sometimes. Just been listening to the set you posted for an hour, very nice.

I didn’t buy it so much for the live aspect , but as a drum machine. I’m going to spend some more quality time with it, but using push is as much fun and way faster. Maybe it’s just not for me at this point. I’m hanging on to it for now in hope of that update.
DiscoDevil
h4ndcrafted wrote:


Im trying to keep it that way, but it’s gets frustrating sometimes. Just been listening to the set you posted for an hour, very nice.

I didn’t buy it so much for the live aspect , but as a drum machine. I’m going to spend some more quality time with it, but using push is as much fun and way faster. Maybe it’s just not for me at this point. I’m hanging on to it for now in hope of that update.



Thank you!

Yeah, if you don't need a hardware drum machine with 8 outputs, an analog filter/overdrive section and a very performance oriented workflow, it's probably not the right choice. There are way better sequencers out there and arguably better drum machines but the SP-16 fits a niche no other machine can at this point so all of my complaints aside, it's a cold dead hands piece.
dubnspace
giving this box a serious look exactly for the purpose of putting together a live set.. anyone use either this or a deluge for this purpose? i'm kinda between these two but leaning heavily towards the SP-16
DiscoDevil
dubnspace wrote:
giving this box a serious look exactly for the purpose of putting together a live set.. anyone use either this or a deluge for this purpose? i'm kinda between these two but leaning heavily towards the SP-16


Further up this page is a link to my latest live set using the SP-16. It's a mix of sequenced samples from my studio, midi sequencing external gear and playing external gear live with the pads on the SP-16. I'm just switching patterns and building the songs and transitions on the fly.
dubnspace
DiscoDevil wrote:
dubnspace wrote:
giving this box a serious look exactly for the purpose of putting together a live set.. anyone use either this or a deluge for this purpose? i'm kinda between these two but leaning heavily towards the SP-16


Further up this page is a link to my latest live set using the SP-16. It's a mix of sequenced samples from my studio, midi sequencing external gear and playing external gear live with the pads on the SP-16. I'm just switching patterns and building the songs and transitions on the fly.


yeah that's great. exactly what im looking to do.
dubnspace
DiscoDevil wrote:
dubnspace wrote:
giving this box a serious look exactly for the purpose of putting together a live set.. anyone use either this or a deluge for this purpose? i'm kinda between these two but leaning heavily towards the SP-16


Further up this page is a link to my latest live set using the SP-16. It's a mix of sequenced samples from my studio, midi sequencing external gear and playing external gear live with the pads on the SP-16. I'm just switching patterns and building the songs and transitions on the fly.


how do you find the midi sequencing of multiple pieces of gear with the one midi out, i assume you're using another box to split out midi for notes and clock to all the other devices, or chaining midi thrus?. is it tight with all that data coming out one output?
DiscoDevil
dubnspace wrote:
DiscoDevil wrote:
dubnspace wrote:
giving this box a serious look exactly for the purpose of putting together a live set.. anyone use either this or a deluge for this purpose? i'm kinda between these two but leaning heavily towards the SP-16


Further up this page is a link to my latest live set using the SP-16. It's a mix of sequenced samples from my studio, midi sequencing external gear and playing external gear live with the pads on the SP-16. I'm just switching patterns and building the songs and transitions on the fly.


how do you find the midi sequencing of multiple pieces of gear with the one midi out, i assume you're using another box to split out midi for notes and clock to all the other devices, or chaining midi thrus?. is it tight with all that data coming out one output?


In the studio I use a midi patchbay. On stage I use a midi thru box and a Roland SBX-1 to split and convert the MIDI clock to SYNC24, respectively.
Panason
dubnspace wrote:

how do you find the midi sequencing of multiple pieces of gear


It's doable but I wouldn't count on this being a strong point of this machine. You have to use up multiple tracks if you want fully polyphonic MIDI sequencing and you get stuck notes if a note length extends past the end of a pattern... and you cannot name the MIDI tracks- even though there is a perfectly fine on-screen keyboard already implemented d'oh!

I tried it with two MIDI synths and didn't have timing issues. i wouldn't bother sequencing drums over MIDI though.
DiscoDevil
Panason wrote:
dubnspace wrote:

how do you find the midi sequencing of multiple pieces of gear


It's doable but I wouldn't count on this being a strong point of this machine. You have to use up multiple tracks if you want fully polyphonic MIDI sequencing and you get stuck notes if a note length extends past the end of a pattern... and you cannot name the MIDI tracks- even though there is a perfectly fine on-screen keyboard already implemented d'oh!



Multiple tracks? Nah. You just set the root note and add the rest of the chord per step. I use mine for a lot of midi sequencing. It's not perfect but the MPC style pads + the 16 step X0X interface is the best of both worlds.
Panason
Yeah I mean if you want notes to overlap without sharing the same start and end points. Not just for strummed chords but for also doing glides on some monosynths which require legato for glides.
DiscoDevil
Panason wrote:
Yeah I mean if you want notes to overlap without sharing the same start and end points. Not just for strummed chords but for also doing glides on some monosynths which require legato for glides.


I see. Yeah, that would be nice.
calaveras
It's an intriguing piece. But man, the name sounds like a Hyundai Sedan.
Jason Brock
I admit that I simply didn't even consider the SP-16 for a while because of the Rainbow Brite aesthetic and the letters "DJ" on the case. But now that I've given it a chance, it has won me over big time. It doesn't do everything, but it does exactly what I need with an easy to use interface.

- It has excellent pads with a very playable velocity curve, plus freely assignable Choke groups - these are necessary basics that I appreciate coming from an MPC.
- They grafted that onto an x0x step sequencer with parameter locks, probably inspired by Elektron sequencers (though not as full featured).
- Can also record live input, unquantized or quantized.
- Great sound quality, both with and without the Drive/DSI Filter.
- The large display is nice, so I don't have to rename all of my samples with shorter names in order to tell them apart (looking at you, Elektron).

There are a few strange things though, like why can't the touch strip affect a track as it plays back from the sequencer? It only works as you play the pads live. I also wish it could send modulation to the analog filter. It should be possible to mod it with a CV input for cutoff control...maybe some brave soul will crack theirs open one day and provide mod instructions.
Panason
If you start thinking what they could have done with this hardware and that screen.... that way lies madness!

I would throw money at someone who could get into the firmware and add all the things... I would erect a statue of them and sing their praises unto the end of days!!
nodog
Jason Brock wrote:
I admit that I simply didn't even consider the SP-16 for a while because of the Rainbow Brite aesthetic and the letters "DJ" on the case. But now that I've given it a chance, it has won me over big time. It doesn't do everything, but it does exactly what I need with an easy to use interface.



I'm feeling exactly the same having bought one last month. To add to the reasons to not consider the SP16: the price is very steep for what I'm using it for: just a simple loopsampler.

It does this very very well though. Couldn't imagine it being simpler and that's why I don't mind the lack of extra bells and whistles. Most of the time those extra functions just mess up the workflow. This sampler you can almost use without even looking in the manual.

Cut up a loop, make a pattern, parameter-lock some FX and there you go. It's just brilliant!
Jason Brock
nodog wrote:
I'm feeling exactly the same having bought one last month. To add to the reasons to not consider the SP16: the price is very steep for what I'm using it for: just a simple loopsampler.


At the retail price, it is expensive. But a few Ebay sellers are blowing them out for under $900 new at the moment, which I think is a good price for what you get.
nodog
Jason Brock wrote:


At the retail price, it is expensive. But a few Ebay sellers are blowing them out for under $900 new at the moment, which I think is a good price for what you get.


Yes, I got it second hand for that reason. 900 new should be about the price it is worth. Here in Europe it's still 1400.
WilDFire
These are going for almost firesale prices now and I'm thinking of jumping in for the DSI filter alone even though I love my octatrack.

B stock going for 799!
DiscoDevil
Jason Brock wrote:
I also wish it could send modulation to the analog filter. It should be possible to mod it with a CV input for cutoff control...maybe some brave soul will crack theirs open one day and provide mod instructions.


I have two of them and opened one up. Each section of the DSI PCB is clearly labelled and there appears to be solder points for most functions so some kind of breakout box should be possible.
Panason
SlayerBadger!
dubnspace
WilDFire wrote:
These are going for almost firesale prices now and I'm thinking of jumping in for the DSI filter alone even though I love my octatrack.

B stock going for 799!


who has them in stock for that price?
Jason Brock
dubnspace wrote:
WilDFire wrote:
B stock going for 799!


who has them in stock for that price?


Nobody that I've seen. ProAudioStar is the only one with that price and they are out of stock. A few Ebay sellers have them for around $850.
WilDFire
Yep it was proaudiostar and went back a few hours later and it was gone.

I know I will get the RTFM response and I did watch several videos but just wanted to confirm that you CANNOT p-lock analog filter sweeps, correct?

Thanks!
DiscoDevil
WilDFire wrote:
Yep it was proaudiostar and went back a few hours later and it was gone.

I know I will get the RTFM response and I did watch several videos but just wanted to confirm that you CANNOT p-lock analog filter sweeps, correct?

Thanks!


Correct. You'd want to resample the audio while you do it manually.
DiscoDevil
The DSI portion does seem to be just strapped on and not fully integrated in to the machine. It doesn't really make sense that you can't use midi CC to change the parameters on it. I wouldn't doubt if the functionality is there but Pioneer just never bothered to turn it on.
dubonaire
DiscoDevil wrote:
The DSI portion does seem to be just strapped on and not fully integrated in to the machine. It doesn't really make sense that you can't use midi CC to change the parameters on it. I wouldn't doubt if the functionality is there but Pioneer just never bothered to turn it on.


I would doubt it's there actually, because then there would need to be additional control circuitry.
DiscoDevil
dubonaire wrote:
DiscoDevil wrote:
The DSI portion does seem to be just strapped on and not fully integrated in to the machine. It doesn't really make sense that you can't use midi CC to change the parameters on it. I wouldn't doubt if the functionality is there but Pioneer just never bothered to turn it on.


I would doubt it's there actually, because then there would need to be additional control circuitry.


Well, there's some control circuitry in place considering you can choose how you want to use the section and that option was not available at launch ie it was "unlocked" in a software update. My guess is it's all there and just needs to be programmed.
dubonaire
DiscoDevil wrote:
dubonaire wrote:
DiscoDevil wrote:
The DSI portion does seem to be just strapped on and not fully integrated in to the machine. It doesn't really make sense that you can't use midi CC to change the parameters on it. I wouldn't doubt if the functionality is there but Pioneer just never bothered to turn it on.


I would doubt it's there actually, because then there would need to be additional control circuitry.


Well, there's some control circuitry in place considering you can choose how you want to use the section and that option was not available at launch ie it was "unlocked" in a software update. My guess is it's all there and just needs to be programmed.


Yeah you are right actually. I don't use that feature and had forgotten about it.
Panason
very frustrating
where does it save the file when you render a track ?? Dead Banana
dubonaire
Panason wrote:
very frustrating
where does it save the file when you render a track ?? Dead Banana


Have a look at the Firmware Version 1.5 Operating Instructions Addendum.
Jason Brock
I was also a bit bummed that it can't lock Reverse per step, but I figured out an easy workaround. Just assign the same sample to two tracks and reverse one of them, then set both tracks to the same choke group. With 16 voices available I don't mind using up an extra track for things like this when I need it.
Panason
Panason wrote:
very frustrating
where does it save the file when you render a track ?? Dead Banana


Anyone? I already looked at Pioneer's sad excuse for a user guide... I tried to render a track and it looked like it saved something but I can't find it on the file system / internal or USB. There's a folder called "Rendered" but it's not in there...
Jason Brock
SP-16 v1.5 Addendum
Says, "The destination to store rendered audio files has been changed as: /PIONEER DJ SAMPLER/RenderedAudio/"

It works for me, that's where I find the files.
Panason
Quote:
You cannot access audio files after rendering from the sample browse screen of this unit. Save them in your computer for edit and mastering.


angry angry angry angry angry angry angry angry angry Sniper Sniper Sniper Sniper Sniper
Never again, Toraiz or Pioneer...

So the only way to bounce a track with effects included and then load the rendered audio to a track without a computer is to re-sample it from the analog inputs?
DiscoDevil
Panason wrote:
Quote:
You cannot access audio files after rendering from the sample browse screen of this unit. Save them in your computer for edit and mastering.


angry angry angry angry angry angry angry angry angry Sniper Sniper Sniper Sniper Sniper
Never again, Toraiz or Pioneer...

So the only way to bounce a track with effects included and then load the rendered audio to a track without a computer is to re-sample it from the analog inputs?


Rendering is a function for exporting to a computer. You can resample the Master outputs internally.
Panason
I finally recorded something!
Here's another raw SP-16 live jam (pattern mode) recorded directly to stereo without further processing (No DAW or mixer)
The TT303 is clocked, controlled and distorted with the SP-16 ( using the line in)

oodles of fun!

[s]https://soundcloud.com/treebase/gangsta-acid-live[/s]

Hopefully I'll sequence it properly sometime and add some VST juice... doubt I'll get away with those samples tho hihi
DiscoDevil
Nice! Yeah, that's one thing I've never done with my SP-16 is use the THRU for effects.
Panason
This box is gonna be the hub from now on. Will have to start using the Arranger for more coherent structures. Bring on the fucking Cirklon.
DiscoDevil
Panason wrote:
This box is gonna be the hub from now on. Will have to start using the Arranger for more coherent structures. Bring on the fucking Cirklon.


I still haven't really used the arranger either. I just change patterns manually and then after the performance, I go through the recording and cut/copy/paste in Soundforge to "arrange" the tune. I guess I really never know what the song structure is going to be until I actually get in front of a crowd to play. Once I start the set, I just wing it and build the tunes up, break them down, remix, etc on the fly and hope it works out. Usually I can "fix" any phrasing errors or performance flubs afterwards.
Panason
I'm trying to stay away from perfectly streamlined beats but it's so easy to destroy a rhythm that people are dancing to, when trying to break away from a monotonous beat.... I want to keep it as live as possible but I'm finding it tricky with transitions/fills since switching to a new scene requires a few too many button presses (and remembering which scene I want) so I'm trying to stick with 16 patterns per "song".

Since there is no colour coding for the patterns within a scene, and there is no pattern chaining it's awkward working with transition patterns that should not loop..Moving patterns around so I can put such patterns next to the patterns they should follow (for easy recall when playing live) requires keeping a blank pattern as a copy/paste zone... the kind of house-keeping jobs that make people run back to the computer!

I thought about sticking to one or two bar long patterns and using the pattern length button to add fills that can be manually brought in for a bar or two... but it's easy to miss the timing window for a switch and let the pattern loop over.

I used to have a sequencer (or was it drum machine) that had dedicated fill patterns ... i miss that stuff.
DiscoDevil
Yep. Pattern organization is definitely a chore and leaving a blank pattern to use temporarily while you shuffle patterns around is necessary.

To make transitions smoother, I will sometimes put sequences from the next song in to the current one. Sometimes just the bassline or even just drums so I can break the tune down and then bring in some part of the next song before I switch scenes. It makes it sound more like a DJ set because I am combining the two tracks together for a bit before I "mix" out of the old one. Having another drum machine and synth with internal sequencers in the live rig helps as well as I can mix in to those for a bit while I switch scenes and then start bringing in tracks from the new song.
dubonaire
DiscoDevil wrote:
Yep. Pattern organization is definitely a chore and leaving a blank pattern to use temporarily while you shuffle patterns around is necessary.

To make transitions smoother, I will sometimes put sequences from the next song in to the current one. Sometimes just the bassline or even just drums so I can break the tune down and then bring in some part of the next song before I switch scenes. It makes it sound more like a DJ set because I am combining the two tracks together for a bit before I "mix" out of the old one. Having another drum machine and synth with internal sequencers in the live rig helps as well as I can mix in to those for a bit while I switch scenes and then start bringing in tracks from the new song.


I was going to say part of the reason you don't need to arrange is because the SP-16 is just one instrument in your live set.

Actually the arrangement function in the SP-16 is very easy to use and also good for jamming different loops.
h4ndcrafted
What I’m really coming to appreciate with this sampler, is actually how well sampling works.

Maybe it’s the other phrase samplers I’ve used, but actual method of sampling is so quick. Being able to resample to defined lengths and quickly being able to do retakes is great.

I’m not really using the arranger much as it is mainly used as a studio device.

I’m also finding the analogue filter is great for resampling and using as a band pass for boosting certain freq in drums.
h4ndcrafted
Service manual is here if anybody is interested ?


https://lookaside.fbsbx.com/file/TSP-16_Serv_Man_QRT1001.pdf?token=AWw jTjpCN-mtyBSuTM2SVHEfdcninPJm_Thdolcfc0LaWggbp9zGkwFTZ4puUduiQAyVN7-hn E7h4LRqPj3jfe0h36xfow6UbX2RLu4RSpO_vC42jDAjkftflDfP29ScTKcgRWhD0F-Q50O xT3VHpGei9UPHCahLn6jisFiCu3oGXoWYWioaC8OqcuCuDsgFmjA
tenembre
h4ndcrafted wrote:
Service manual is here if anybody is interested ?


https://lookaside.fbsbx.com/file/TSP-16_Serv_Man_QRT1001.pdf?token=AWw jTjpCN-mtyBSuTM2SVHEfdcninPJm_Thdolcfc0LaWggbp9zGkwFTZ4puUduiQAyVN7-hn E7h4LRqPj3jfe0h36xfow6UbX2RLu4RSpO_vC42jDAjkftflDfP29ScTKcgRWhD0F-Q50O xT3VHpGei9UPHCahLn6jisFiCu3oGXoWYWioaC8OqcuCuDsgFmjA


Thank you!
sneak-thief
h4ndcrafted wrote:
Service manual is here if anybody is interested ?


https://lookaside.fbsbx.com/file/TSP-16_Serv_Man_QRT1001.pdf?token=AWw jTjpCN-mtyBSuTM2SVHEfdcninPJm_Thdolcfc0LaWggbp9zGkwFTZ4puUduiQAyVN7-hn E7h4LRqPj3jfe0h36xfow6UbX2RLu4RSpO_vC42jDAjkftflDfP29ScTKcgRWhD0F-Q50O xT3VHpGei9UPHCahLn6jisFiCu3oGXoWYWioaC8OqcuCuDsgFmjA


Can't d/l without a fb login. Is there any possibility for this file to be hosted elsewhere?
sneak-thief
Aha, finally got the service manual.

Are there schematics also available?

"TSP-16 QRT1002: SCHEMATIC DIAGRAM, PCB CONNECTION DIAGRAM, PCB PARTS LIST"
sneak-thief
Re. analog filter section:

Can the analog high-pass filter be automated with the current firmware?

Neither the LPF frequency nor the LPF resonance pots are connected to the main CPU, but there's a single-channel DAC that goes to the HPF frequency CV control:

DiscoDevil
As it is now, no. I imagine you could make a breakout box to allow CV control over those circuits though.
DiscoDevil
Imagine a CV breakout box and just a midi to CV convertor so you could program in CCs and convert them to control the analog section of the SP. Someone needs to get on that.
Panason
I was going to say the same thing! Are there points on the PCB for CV control of the filters?

Could use a MIDI track to send out the CCs...
DiscoDevil
Panason wrote:
I was going to say the same thing! Are there points on the PCB for CV control of the filters?

Could use a MIDI track to send out the CCs...


There are clearly labeled solder points for each section on the PCB but I'm not skilled enough to know what you can do with them.
DiscoDevil
Another live set courtesy of the SP-16.

[s]https://api.soundcloud.com/tracks/644910054[/s]
DiscoDevil
And yet another. This one is a collaboration with Autokinetic. We used 2x Toraiz SP-16s plus a bunch of other gear. We got around the sync drift issue by using one SP-16 as the master clock and loading it up with a majority of the timestretched loops and heavy pattern/scene changes. The other SP-16 was slaved but only one pattern per scene was used. Timing stayed tight throughout the nearly 1.5hr set.

All original music except the last tune which is a "cover". Performed live Somewhere in Wisconsin @ Even Furthur 2019.
hez
Apologies if this has already been covered in the thread (I read back a few pages and couldn't see a clear answer), but is there any way to just trigger loops up to e.g. 16 bars long and have them play constantly until stopped, Ableton style?

I'd love to have a sort of stems box that syncs nicely with CDJs so that I can stem out some of my own material and cut interesting loops from other tunes, with a bit more live control than just throwing them on a 3rd or 4th CDJ. However, 4 bars (or 8 bars with the weird pattern chain trick/LFO workaround) is a bit limited for the kind of long melodic progressions/pads in my music.

If I understand the (very limited) documentation, the 1.5 live recording/looper functionality seems to enable straight loop playing functionality (beyond the 4 bar pattern sequencer limits), but only for audio recorded live, not for samples already stored on the box/loaded from a USB stick?

Cheers
DiscoDevil
hez wrote:
Apologies if this has already been covered in the thread (I read back a few pages and couldn't see a clear answer), but is there any way to just trigger loops up to e.g. 16 bars long and have them play constantly until stopped, Ableton style?

I'd love to have a sort of stems box that syncs nicely with CDJs so that I can stem out some of my own material and cut interesting loops from other tunes, with a bit more live control than just throwing them on a 3rd or 4th CDJ. However, 4 bars (or 8 bars with the weird pattern chain trick/LFO workaround) is a bit limited for the kind of long melodic progressions/pads in my music.

If I understand the (very limited) documentation, the 1.5 live recording/looper functionality seems to enable straight loop playing functionality (beyond the 4 bar pattern sequencer limits), but only for audio recorded live, not for samples already stored on the box/loaded from a USB stick?

Cheers


You are limited to 64 seconds for sample length. The MPC LIVE might be more what you're looking for. The SP-16 sequencer is pretty well tied to 4bar loops and variations.
hez
DiscoDevil wrote:
You are limited to 64 seconds for sample length. The MPC LIVE might be more what you're looking for. The SP-16 sequencer is pretty well tied to 4bar loops and variations.


Thanks for the swift response! 64 seconds is definitely more than enough for me in terms of absolute length, it's just the 4 bar thing that's a bit of a killer.

The MPC Live looks fantastic but the plug and play sync capability of the SP-16 is the biggest sell for me - my sets will still be mainly CDJ based but being able to add a fairly portable live element on top, that isn't dependent on MIDI sync, is pretty attractive. I tend to move tempo quite a lot on the CDJs and being able to quickly turn sync on and off is really handy when switching in and out of ambient sections etc. - I fear relying on MIDI for this sort of performance would just lead to endless troubleshooting and pain lol
Panason
hez wrote:
(or 8 bars with the weird pattern chain trick/LFO workaround)


What trick is that?

Re: CDJs : I would check that the DJ Link thing actually works properly before buying....
DiscoDevil
Panason wrote:
hez wrote:
(or 8 bars with the weird pattern chain trick/LFO workaround)


What trick is that?

Re: CDJs : I would check that the DJ Link thing actually works properly before buying....



If you've got longer samples you can use slices or sample start times modulated by an LFO to start the sample from different points.

You can take a 16 bar sample and slice it up in to 4 bar slices and then use 4 patterns to play all 4 parts back to back or you can use an LFO to trigger the long sample from a different start point each time the 4 bar pattern loops around.
Panason
Oh cool. I was doing something similar with setting a square LFO on the velocity of individual hits to get them to not sound every time, so that I can get similar results to using the periodic trigs on the Elektron boxes, ie variations within a 4 bar loop. it's a little fiddly as you have to set the LFO phase and speed just right.
dubonaire
Has anyone come across this problem?

I can't turn off the internal sequencer and sync and run/stop externally. The tempo indicator is greyed out when I select the MIDI sync option but that is the only change that happens.
Panason
Have you gone through all the settings?
dubonaire
Panason wrote:
Have you gone through all the settings?


Unless I'm mistaken, only one setting needs to be changed.
Panason
Nooo, there's 4 relevant settings! MIDI interface select (DIN or USB) , Sync source select, Start/stop enable and Sync enable. Dead Banana
DiscoDevil
dubonaire wrote:
Has anyone come across this problem?

I can't turn off the internal sequencer and sync and run/stop externally. The tempo indicator is greyed out when I select the MIDI sync option but that is the only change that happens.


What is MIDI I/F SELECT set to? Try switching between DIN MIDI and DIN MIDI THRU H/W and see if that makes a difference.
dubonaire
DiscoDevil wrote:
dubonaire wrote:
Has anyone come across this problem?

I can't turn off the internal sequencer and sync and run/stop externally. The tempo indicator is greyed out when I select the MIDI sync option but that is the only change that happens.


What is MIDI I/F SELECT set to? Try switching between DIN MIDI and DIN MIDI THRU H/W and see if that makes a difference.


Thanks! I did. I was hoping you might have a solution because I'd describe you as a super user. Really weird. It was working fine. I actually hadn't turned it on for a few months because I've been busy making samples for it and turned it on last weekend and found this. (My available time makes this a slow process.) In my live set it will be the master, but for what I'm doing at the moment which is kind of finessing the set around the samples with some additional sounds being driven by a Cirklon I really want it to be the slave.
DiscoDevil
dubonaire wrote:
DiscoDevil wrote:
dubonaire wrote:
Has anyone come across this problem?

I can't turn off the internal sequencer and sync and run/stop externally. The tempo indicator is greyed out when I select the MIDI sync option but that is the only change that happens.


What is MIDI I/F SELECT set to? Try switching between DIN MIDI and DIN MIDI THRU H/W and see if that makes a difference.


Thanks! I did. I was hoping you might have a solution because I'd describe you as a super user. Really weird. It was working fine. I actually hadn't turned it on for a few months because I've been busy making samples for it and turned it on last weekend and found this. (My available time makes this a slow process.) In my live set it will be the master, but for what I'm doing at the moment which is kind of finessing the set around the samples with some additional sounds being driven by a Cirklon I really want it to be the slave.


Maybe backup all your projects and do a factory reset on it?

Factory reset is "page 12" using the back and home buttons to move between pages.
dubonaire
DiscoDevil wrote:


Factory reset is "page 12" using the back and home buttons to move between pages.


Thanks! That's a good idea, I'll try that. I did try re-installing the last OS but that didn't help, hadn't actually thought to do a factory reset.
dubonaire
I tried the factory reset, and it didn't really behave like it actually did a factory reset. I got the second screen below instantaneously, and when I turned it off and on again it was in exactly the same state as before I tried to do the reset, with version 1.50, all the samples and projects available and the last project loaded.

Do you have a copy of the service manual and if so would you mind sharing it? I missed the chance of downloading it when it was available.





Panason
Hope you got it sorted, Dubs.

I finally came round to trying remote control of patterns... This is done wth CC32 which is a "bank select" message in the archaic world of MIDI....

I was flummoxed before because Ableton Live's MIDI CC menu in the clip envelope box doesn't offer CC32... but recently someone on that awful GS forum mentioned that CC32 is sent out by Live from the Program Change box in the clip launch options.

I tried it out and found that entering values in the actual "Program" field does nothing. You need to input the pattern number in the "Sub" field. I've also been inputting the Scene number in the "Bank" field but haven't tried changing scenes with that yet.

Thankfully the timing is good and the SP16 responds instantly to these messages. It looks like you can even change patterns quite rapidly and not just on whole bar steps, if you set the Pattern quantize setting to "step" This is fun!
dubonaire
[quote="Panason"]Hope you got it sorted, Dubs./quote]

Thanks! No I haven't. Will see if contacting Pioneer DJ will help.
revtor
New firmware is out.
Big change - 2fx slots per track
Some MIDI things.. not sure about the details here.
No delete samples..!!?

2 effects is nice at least!
-Steve
Panason
Thanks for heads up...

Ok , the only substantial improvement here is the second FX slot.

The rest is pretty meh.. unless they fixed the sync issue when using lots of timestretched samples that DiscoDevil reported.


Multiple tracks can now be assigned to the same MIDI channel using the MIDI IN channel settings.
MIDI-related sync and performance settings.
Now able to use an underscore on the software keyboard hoorray!

Such a nice keyboard, shame we can't use it to name MIDI tracks or CC assignments...etc etc.
Still no step copy.... just WHY.

I wonder if the touch strip bug that was introduced by 1.50 has been fixed.
DiscoDevil
From what I gather, MIDI data is now correctly passed THRU from input to outputs on all tracks!!! I'd have been happy with just that. A 2nd FX slot is MAJOR. Feel like going home sick from work to install!
djthopa
Thanks for the head ups on the update!
Panason
It's a nice surprise and good to see they haven't quite abandoned the machine.
poppinger
Cool! Just last night I was idly poking around the Pioneer website to see if there had been any updates recently.
dubnspace
price dropped to $899!
https://www.americanmusical.com/Item--i-PIO-TSP16-LIST
DiscoDevil
dubnspace wrote:
price dropped to $899!
https://www.americanmusical.com/Item--i-PIO-TSP16-LIST



Whoa. Sounds like firesale. I'd guess this is the last update we'll see and the end of the SP-16 unless they're doing a MK2.
DiscoDevil
The sad thing is, if they had just released the damned thing without all this headache or had put together updates in a more timely manner, they'd have sold so many more of them and not had people screaming at them for 3 years.
h4ndcrafted
Who’d buy one new now with so many on eBay ?

It’s a pitty, it’s really well built and the pads are nice. What a cock up, it has a lot going for it compared to the comp. Woudnt it be great if somebody did a mpc1000 on it.
revtor
Didn’t pioneer spin the Toraiz brand off to another company? Something along these lines within the past year or so.. 899 is great for what you get w/1.6, just wish the MIDI input/recording side of things would be been worked out a bit better..

Still a sick jamming machine 10000%!!

Steve
dubonaire
revtor wrote:
Didn’t pioneer spin the Toraiz brand off to another company? Something along these lines within the past year or so..


No.Pioneer DJ is for sale though, probably to another PE Fund.
d2ba
https://www.americanmusical.com/Item--i-PIO-DJS1000-PAK
DJS-1000 is also a good deal at $1019
dubonaire
DiscoDevil Firmware update fixed my MIDI Sync Source problem smile
DiscoDevil
dubonaire wrote:
DiscoDevil Firmware update fixed my MIDI Sync Source problem smile


Right on! I am in shock that they fixed the midi thru. I had given up on that.
h4ndcrafted
Is the stutter bug fixed using midi clock ?

If you start the sequence from the SP while using midi clock, you get a double hit.
Panason
Does the touch strip's retrigger effect work properly on the new OS? I heard it had some trouble with some quantization values under OS1.5?
onthebandwagon
Do any members own both an SP-16 and Deluge?
lmixl
Thinking of sequencing a Nord Drum 3 with the sp16...Would that work out?
Anyone elese using same setup for sequencing modules with the sp16?
DiscoDevil
lmixl wrote:
Thinking of sequencing a Nord Drum 3 with the sp16...Would that work out?
Anyone elese using same setup for sequencing modules with the sp16?


Would work as long as you're ok with using up a track for each instrument sound in the Nord Drum.
xonetacular
ok for someone who hasnt paid attention to this in a couple years can someone give me cliff notes pros/cons of the sp-16 now?
Panason
This thread and the GS thread have it fully covered.

Bad:
No zero point crossing for sample slicing- clicks must be dealt with using the amp envelope
Needs computer to really manage the samples and do proper editing (like all similar boxes)
No sequencer track mutes, only audio mutes
No individual step copy paste, only whole bar (or pattern) copy/paste- this one is a real bitch
Not fully polyphonic MIDI sequencing

Good:
Best sound
Best ease of use
Best hardware quality
Does not crash, doesn't have weird bugs
Is not Elektron
DiscoDevil
Pros:

It's the greatest sampling drum machine ever made.

Cons:

It's a sampling drum machine and needs some help if it's going to be your main MIDI sequencer.
onthebandwagon
Panason wrote:
This thread and the GS thread have it fully covered.

Bad:
No zero point crossing for sample slicing- clicks must be dealt with using the amp envelope
Needs computer to really manage the samples and do proper editing (like all similar boxes)
No sequencer track mutes, only audio mutes
No individual step copy paste, only whole bar (or pattern) copy/paste- this one is a real bitch
Not fully polyphonic MIDI sequencing

Good:
Best sound
Best ease of use
Best hardware quality
Does not crash, doesn't have weird bugs
Is not Elektron


Is the Deluge as reliant on a computer for sample editing etc.?
dubonaire
onthebandwagon wrote:
Panason wrote:
This thread and the GS thread have it fully covered.

Bad:
No zero point crossing for sample slicing- clicks must be dealt with using the amp envelope
Needs computer to really manage the samples and do proper editing (like all similar boxes)
No sequencer track mutes, only audio mutes
No individual step copy paste, only whole bar (or pattern) copy/paste- this one is a real bitch
Not fully polyphonic MIDI sequencing

Good:
Best sound
Best ease of use
Best hardware quality
Does not crash, doesn't have weird bugs
Is not Elektron


Is the Deluge as reliant on a computer for sample editing etc.?


I personally wouldn't want to do sample editing with a machine that shows you the sample waveform so crudely. You might be ok with this:



SP-16 has a good sample display and I find the editing functions well designed. I'm not sure any machine is going to be able to process samples as easily as software does now, we've been spoilt.

Also I find hardware versions of a piano roll opaque.

I don't find not being able to copy notes a problem but midi sequencing is not my primary use for the SP-16. You can always use record to drop individual notes in anyway.

I don't think it was ever meant to be a midi sequencer and I would not get one for that purpose.
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