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why choosing Bitwig over Live ? ( push2 runs ? )
MUFF WIGGLER Forum Index -> Music Software Goto page 1, 2  Next [all]
Author why choosing Bitwig over Live ? ( push2 runs ? )
Funky40
i´ve had a short look at the Bitwig2 page.
That modulator modul stuff is VERY intriguing to me.
exactly what i wished to have in ableton.

now my question to you:
1. what are the/your Reasons that you choosed Bitwig over Ableton live ?


2. Has Bitwig advantages over Live in regards to routing ? ( beside the modulator modules)
speaking about complex Sound and FX setups


and as a side question:
3. is Push2 running with Biwig ? ( sequenzing PLUS P-locking )
( ......i have one coming )
KaOsphere
1 : As far as I'm concerned, when time came to choose a daw licence, bitwig seemed a better thought "whole package" while live was relying heavily on Max4Live.

In nature Bitwig is modular at its core, it seems Live doesn't.

Bitwig has Hybrid tracks ( Midi and audio )

Bitwig has its own modulators like LFOs, Env Follower, Some well though modules like Center/Side Stereo splitters etc...

No need to brigde 64/32 bit plugins.

Independant plugin engine : when a plugin crashes it becomes "muted" and the rest of the project still runs flawlessly...You can reload it without interrupting the sequencer...

Bitwig has P-locks since day one.

The price was cheaper compared to what Live + m4l was...

2 : Bitwig is modular in nature so you actually have modules like "audio receiver" which can "listen" to any audio at any position in any track...Same goes for midi of course...

3 : Push runs with Bitwig and is well integrated as far as I know.
Here is a list of controller scripts :
https://www.bitwig.com/en/community/control_scripts.html

Making you own are somewhat painfull and I wish that's is something that could be made a little easier in the future...

Of course I'm pretty sure Push best friend is and will probably be forever Live...
SB-SIX
So many little things I can't live without now:
Named in/outputs (no more thinking what output 12 was again)
Easier browsing/adding plugs/fx
Insert fx inside delay feedback paths
Edit multiple tracks in one view
Easier modulation of params
I love the skin. Ableton skin really kills creativity for me
Lfos, sequencers etc on every (vst) param possible

With upcoming 2.0 all modulators work on midi cc, cv out on audio outputs, vst3...
Funky40
KaOsphere wrote:
.............. while live was relying heavily on Max4Live.

yeah, i wanted to have M4L ( I stepped back into the DAW thing some 8 weeks back)

so i can´t run the M4L FX within Bitwig ?

SB-SIX wrote:

Insert fx inside delay feedback paths

huh, that modularity goes that far ?
so that "modularity" is kind of a common thing, aplyable to many scenarios ?

SB-SIX wrote:

Edit multiple tracks in one view

haha, that point was in fact the reason why i´ve quit with Cubase ...and finally DAW some 9 years back.

ok, ok, ok, i´ll check the demo............( Bitwig is still 299$........) ......., damn

Much Thanks !
lamouette/rck
modularity is like :

You have a percusive sound on a hardware synth, you put a delay on bitwig on it, you put a filter on the feedback path, you use the output of this filter to modulate a parameter on another track via an envelope follower, like a filter on anything you want to modulate ! or everything else you want, bitwig is so awesome for modular guys, and the V2 looks so promising !
KaOsphere
Funky40 wrote:
KaOsphere wrote:
.............. while live was relying heavily on Max4Live.

yeah, i wanted to have M4L ( I stepped back into the DAW thing some 8 weeks back)

so i can´t run the M4L FX within Bitwig ?



If you use M4L a lot, you should consider Max/Msp directly as you would be able to port any m4l device you like as a bitwig compatible standalone...
dogoftears
lamouette/rck wrote:
modularity is like :

You have a percusive sound on a hardware synth, you put a delay on bitwig on it, you put a filter on the feedback path, you use the output of this filter to modulate a parameter on another track via an envelope follower, like a filter on anything you want to modulate ! or everything else you want, bitwig is so awesome for modular guys, and the V2 looks so promising !


damn, you serious??
looks like i might have to check out the wigglebitz

i find things become *very* unpredictable/"unstable" when runnings lots of m4L plugs on every channel in a Live project. a more enclosed system without so much 3rd party cross polenation would perhaps alleviate these issues.
lamouette/rck
Yes i am, Honnestly, bitwig is really good at working like a modular.

In the actual version, the only things that is annoying is that you have to add wabt you want to modulate, in the modulator. which can be confusing some times.

But with the new version, you add the modulator you want, in the device itself ! no more headache. easier workflow, and all the new modulator it will be so fun !

Especialy the random modulator

but the list looks so good :

https://www.bitwig.com/en/bitwig-studio/bitwig-studio-2/modulators.htm l

and with the add of the cc modulator, it will be so easy to add infinite modulator tp hardware synth or random to fixed ones...

That's whuch they deleted all the modulator they had integrated on the bitwig synth, now you can add want you want !

After re-reading myself, i feel like a fanboy grin

That
Funky40
So i installed me the demo.


https://www.bitwig.com/en/bitwig-studio
reading the specs more closely, it seems anyway a nobrainer for me to get me Bitwig at some point.
Grouptracks: ......groups within groups....... love


tough, the "add a Midi Controller" setup seems to be a bit unmature right now. Not shure if i missed something .....
........not a person who ever will write something himself ( they point to the fact that its easy to rewrite some scripts from manufacturers)
the sampler is *for my uses* also no comparison to simpler . ( my preffered sampler right now for creative uses and jamms )
probably i better wait until next winter and hope for some blackfriday deal ( if not jumping now on the V1+update deal)
Funky40
Bitwig is also Touchscreen ready This could be something !


(was slightly edited)
Funky40
would Bitwig be able to distribute one soundsource/track to several other tracks in a controllable way.
like sending it to four tracks, each send having a CCed "VCA" to control the distribution ?

and same based on splitting a signal off frequenzy based ?
lamouette/rck
Someone will comfirm, but i would say yes to all.
contrasttx
The Audio Receiver device can receive audio from any track (or particular devices within a track, etc), the only thing prohibited is feedback routings. You can put it pretty much wherever you want. So this kind of routing is easy. It also has a built in gain fader on it that you can automate, map to parameters, modulate with a modulator, etc.

Of course there are some other common ways of routing as well such as track I/O, group channels, sends, etc. But if the basics don't do what you want, you just stick Audio Receiver wherever.

There are 2 and 3 band MultiBand meta-devices that will split frequencies for you, then you can drop in different effect chains for each band.
sleepmcevox
Yes you can send a signal using traditional sends, and also there is an Audio Receiver device that you can put on any track that will receive audio from any other track.

With splitting the signal, there is a Container device with a three-band split, so you can put different effects on each frequency range, all on the same track. Also you can put Containers inside Containers so you can potentially have way more than just 3 bands to work with.
Jamnuska
Can somebody tell me how I can get Bitwig to recognize my Soundcraft Sig 10 mixer? Googled it and can't find shit.
Funky40
Much thanks for the inputs here! Much appreciated.

personally i must say, in my state right now, does Live feel much more intuitiv to me, ..........while many people find Bitwig more intuitiv.
for example was i not able to send a VST piano to a parallel track and make it sound..............while all settings seem so simple to do.

guess if i go for Bitwig would it be with the thought in mind to learn it to patch slowly slowly,.............while a Demo doesn´t allow to save anything.

ohh well, but the controller situation seems to be not as matured as i´d like it to have it. Probably a reason to wait a year or so............
need to give the demo some more trys.
KaOsphere
Advanced routing in bitwig relies on modules, so, you have to learn the 4 or 5 needed for these tasks.

Regarding the controllers issues, I always found their system to be a pain in th a**...

But tbh I use Komplete Kontrol with a s61 inside bitwig as vst and only use transport controls or temp controls mapped for the track I'm recording, and not clip launching/stacks mangling/live controls frenzy so, no big deal for me...

If you look for ultra integrated interactions ala Maschine or Push, as you said, you probably better stick with NI or Ableton...
rod_zero
Bitiwig wins in modularity right now. M4L is nice but it doesn't route audio.

Bitiwg uses more CPU and has more bugs also. I personally don't like their demo because you can't save and so I would be enable to finish a product.


Also, be aware they had a new pricing model, the updates are going to cost 169 but you only get updates for 12 months, at the end you keep your license but if you want more updates you have to pay 169 again. Personally I would prefer to wait and see how that works for them.

And push doesn't work as well in bitwig, specially Push 2 which now brings some custom graphics for some devices in Live.
Funky40
KaOsphere wrote:
Advanced routing in bitwig relies on modules, so, you have to learn the 4 or 5 needed for these tasks.
.

I see, a good pointer for me.

KaOsphere wrote:

Regarding the controllers issues, I always found their system to be a pain in th a**...

............/live controls frenzy so, no big deal for me...
.

what you say is meant in regards to extensive control of VSTs by Knobs/Controllers ?
I have since yesterday four Novation controllers with a total of 16 faders and 80 knobs hihi ....plus also the push2
So its effectivly *all* about tweaking knobs for me ! ...........me: now a ITB wiggler lol

so if i understand this right, and what i experienced so far in this regard, is that Bitwig is then not for me right now.

Thanks for the Input !
CaligulaCuddles
Bitwig was never something that really showed up on my radar until recently.
Could someone give a brief rundow of the "gaps" between the two DAWs? Specifically, what Bitwig and Ableton still have exclusively?
I've never really felt particularly limited by Live as much as I have my own limited experience with it, but as someone who doesn't engage too heavily in the synth-y side of DAW usage so much as using my own instruments in live and effecting them there, a lot of DAW talk often falls about outside of wheelhouse of knowledge and usage.
I'd be curious to know how much of the difference is usability vs exclusive functionality.
rod_zero
Well Ableton Live innovation was bringing a way to play audio outside of a timeline with Session view. This is good for improvisation/jamming and for early stages of composition.

It also has its own paradigm in graphical user interface, no windows for internal devices, an ever present browser to drag sounds and effects. Minimalistic too, function over form.

Bitiwg takes that concept and makes some improvements and innovations, for example the tracks can have midi or audio while in Live it is one or the other. Layered editing of audio and MIDI makes work very fast. And the modulation system is integrated in the DAW, you can route modulations to any parameter of any effect/instrument.

But bitwig lacks some basic functionality, for example multioutput for multitimbral plugins, its timestretch algorythm is of lesser quality, its individual instruments are a copy of Live ones but their Sampler is lacking and the new Simpler in ableton has slicing.

Live is also more stable, Bitwig has some major bugs for example the undo for plug in parameters doesn't work. It uses more CPU too.

Live also has a very large community and has developed a lot of controllers over the years, first with third parties (APC, Launchpad) then in house (Push).

Live has a system based on scripts for mapping controllers which is very powerfull (Push uses it), and over the years third parties have made apps for controlling Live with the iPad (as lemur and touch able) and bring more functionality to controllers (nativekontrol.com).

There is also Max4live, the modular enviroment for Live with a big community making devices.
contrasttx
Bitwig does support multi-out VSTs.

Personally my experience has been that Bitwig is more stable and robust than Live, but it has been a while since I've used Live, and of course this kind of thing is often dependent on the exact configuration or usage.

I think the comment about the Bitwig instruments being copies of the Live ones is a little unfair. They are similar concepts but the execution is different, you need the significantly more expensive Suite version of Live to get Analog & Operator, and also in 2.0 they get much more powerful due to the new modulation system (and revamp of Polysynth in general), basically giving you polyphonic modular-type CV control over the parameters of the built in devices.

It's true Bitwig doesn't have undo for plugin parameters but this is not a bug any more than any other feature it doesn't have is a bug.

Bitwig also has a controller script system and there are several people making good scripts (including for Push). Also FWIW Bitwig's script system is fully documented and supported by Bitwig, whereas Live's Python API is still not officially supported by Ableton to the best of my knowledge.

I'll also note that Max4Live kind of covers two areas, Ableton-specific things and just being a general plugin development environment. In the former case the modulation system covers a decent amount of what is interesting about Max4Live (though not everything by any means). And in the latter case, there are often equivalent plugins or Reaktor devices or whatever available. But of course if you want some specific Max4Live thing then you'd need to use Live/M4L.

Fair points on the smaller community, lesser number of features compared to more established DAWs, and so on.
Taika-Kim
Well there is a reason too, why the time stretch in Bitwig sounds as it does. It is optimized for rhythmic material and music especially, and it does this way better than Live, up to a point.

It tries to preserve the transients, and if the tempo changes are not too big, it does this in a very transparent way. Compare this to Elastique that Live also uses, where even small changes to the tempo smear the sound. I always hated that about Live, I was last using it around two years ago actively.

They should just add another mode for sustained sounds, it's also true that I've had huge issues with this since I use the time stretching a lot, and sustained sounds and monophonic lines often start to sound really grainy when stretched.

About why I chose it over live:
I just immediately felt more comfortable with it, even though it was very buggy (as was the new 2.0 up to a point of being nearly unusable to me), it had the feeling of a fresh contemporary product with a very well design made from ground up.

The clip editor and good multi-screen support is great. Working with sample clips is a joy, the ability to have the editor and move stretch markers in full screen at another monitor, and have the arrangement on another, is really great, compared to that tiny screen I had to do this in
Live.

The native CV out stuff is fantastic!

I have also grown to love the library system that doesn't really allow for directories, now that I've started to use tags, I can find stuff a million times faster than when I still was basically using the DOS way of thinking about directory locations.

+ Everything mentioned here already. I absolutely love the modular design, the rabbit hole goes so deep that I have no idea how far I could go yet.

I have not used 2.1.1 yet extensively, but I'd wait until a few point versions before buying because of the new license model. Now I feel like I have paid for two months of beta testing already (which I also did for free before it was released!), with so many bugs in 2.0.

So my main gripes are the license model, legions of new bugs with new main versions (at least with 2.0), and the time stretching.
dudeman
live is very stable for me. but i must say bitwig has my curiosity piqued. have downloaded the demo....
Johnisfaster
lamouette/rck wrote:
modularity is like :

You have a percusive sound on a hardware synth, you put a delay on bitwig on it, you put a filter on the feedback path, you use the output of this filter to modulate a parameter on another track via an envelope follower, like a filter on anything you want to modulate ! or everything else you want, bitwig is so awesome for modular guys, and the V2 looks so promising !


Are you talking about audio rate modulation or just envelope follong? Cause with max for live there are lfos and envelopes that can map to any parameter but I dont know about audio rate.
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