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WIGGLING 'LITE' IN GUEST MODE

Announcing ALM017 - Pamela's NEW Workout
MUFF WIGGLER Forum Index -> Eurorack Modules Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3 ... 16, 17, 18 ... 55, 56, 57  Next [all]
Author Announcing ALM017 - Pamela's NEW Workout
ALM
cryptogreen wrote:

So PLEASE, if it is possible, quantize pam so she can play along with my ipad or whatever without being made a slave.


For two things to stay in reliably in sync you absolutely have to physically sync them!

The precision of the clock calibration to match external BPMs can likely be increased (and am investigating as previously stated) but depending on just this to keep sync reliably with external equipment is a very bad idea. Its like a band trying to keep time to a drummer with there eyes and ears closed.
cryptogreen
I was reflecting that all the devices i have that currently are able to stay in sync in definitely without having to be physically connected are on a network. So I suppose the analogy would be the band playing with eyes and ears closed but with a psychic connection.

I suppose it was naive to think that a module would have the same clock accuracy as a laptop, but i am confused as to the limitations. There definitely are atomic clocks that have no perceivable clock drift at all. They can be pretty inexpensive as well, although they are wall clocks. Can you help me understand what prevents PNWO getting that level of accuracy?
esotericmetal
Just wanted to say that this module is brilliant! Amazing how much you can do with just 8hp. Been using it with a mother-32, 0-coast and a small 96hp rack and it's working out very well. Haven't even tried out any of the euclidean stuff yet.
behndy
yessssssss. Pam's so GOOD.

simple patterns from the Beatstep Pro into the Basimilus Iteritas Alter with all the envelopes and clock division yumminess of the Pam's -



i've only had her a day and i lurrrrrrrv her.
cryptogreen
@esotericmetal The euclidean stuff is brilliant. It's the perfect thing for people like me that never learned how to properly sequence drum machines.
ugokcen
Quote:
I was reflecting that all the devices i have that currently are able to stay in sync in definitely without having to be physically connected are on a network.


Can you explain further how you are getting your gear in sync without a physical connection? Are you talking about different bits of software running on the same computer?

Even with just laptops and software it was notoriously difficult to get two computers in sync until Ableton came along with their "Link" technology. While that is not a physical connection, it is a wireless connection nonetheless. And before computers were standard production tools getting midi gear synced to tape was an even more troublesome affair.

Pioneer's CDJs also need to be physically connected to stay in sync and those things don't drift at all.

Long story short, I don't believe it's possible to get different bits of hardware to sync without a physical connection. But I may be proven wrong, so please let us know!
aroom
Quote:
I don't believe it's possible to get different bits of hardware to sync without a physical connection.


I don't believe it neither. It's just an hardware clock issue. There aren't two clocks in this world who are exactly on the same pace. Right?

We use atomic clock to keep everyone in time, but it's a matter of correcting everyone's clock being connected (radio waves, internet, with your fingers)

So it's the same with computers, electronics. It's just a quartz clock. You need to sync it, master / slave.


I wonder now if you work on a daw with a specific bpm, and share the file. When you open it on another computer, it would just stretch/correct it, to keep the same value, same loop?
guestt
I think you're also talking about the clocks being in phase, i.e. they both start at exactly the same time and hit the next bar at exactly the same time. If there is even just a tiny discrepancy between the start times then the phase difference will become more pronounced over time.

What I think the problem here is is that 120bpm is not actually 120bpm or close enough to not matter when recording a single bar as a sample loop that can be loaded up in a DAW and used without time stretching.

I can do this with a whole load of gear too, usually the Octatrack, when I record a 4 bar sample at 120bpm, I can copy it to my computer and load it up into Ableton as a loop and it works perfectly without time stretch. 120bpm should be 120bpm. I don't think there's any reason not to have this level of accuracy, we're no where near the accuracy of an atomic clock for this to work correctly.

It would be interesting to see just how many samples there are different between different devices. When recording 4 beats or one bar at 120bpm is 2 seconds of music! At 96KHz that's 192000 samples. So in theory the clock should be at least this accurate, which is not really very accurate at all.

I think anyway, maybe I missed something! Happy to be proven wrong smile

p.s. for what it's worth I also think that you should sync too! Ableton Link has been an absolute godsend for syncing DAW/iPad/Octatrack/Modular together - it's amazing!
dooj88
dooj88 wrote:
i noticed cracking when using the sin and triangle shapes to open/close a VCA - specifically veils. but when i A/B it with a similar shaped signal from maths, there is no crackling. i shot a video, but the maths signal was too hot and distorted the recording.. (noob boob had the attenuator too high and didn't check recording afterwords..) anyway, i'll shoot another video this evening. but here's a decent enough example of the behavior:
https://youtu.be/3uCM_RPaMy0
(i normalized the audio, so if you have to crank the volume, i made sure there are no peaks that are super loud..)

things i've tried:
-changing level of signal, still there but attenuated
-different shapes still have same behvior (envelope, sin, tri)
-trying different output channels/jacks there is no change
-had a high power load on my PSU before, but i got another yesterday, and after reducing the whole load by half that the circuit pam was on, the crackling persisted.

i noticed this when i first got it, and just decided to just not use it for VCA modulation, but now i'd like to know what's going on. another note, i haven't updated the firmware since i received it at the end of march.

any other things to try? anyone else hearing this?


Bumping this since its in the middle of the sync discussion
cryptogreen
Baddcr wrote:
I think you're also talking about the clocks being in phase, i.e. they both start at exactly the same time and hit the next bar at exactly the same time. If there is even just a tiny discrepancy between the start times then the phase difference will become more pronounced over time.

What I think the problem here is is that 120bpm is not actually 120bpm or close enough to not matter when recording a single bar as a sample loop that can be loaded up in a DAW and used without time stretching.

I can do this with a whole load of gear too, usually the Octatrack, when I record a 4 bar sample at 120bpm, I can copy it to my computer and load it up into Ableton as a loop and it works perfectly without time stretch. 120bpm should be 120bpm. I don't think there's any reason not to have this level of accuracy, we're no where near the accuracy of an atomic clock for this to work correctly.

It would be interesting to see just how many samples there are different between different devices. When recording 4 beats or one bar at 120bpm is 2 seconds of music! At 96KHz that's 192000 samples. So in theory the clock should be at least this accurate, which is not really very accurate at all.

I think anyway, maybe I missed something! Happy to be proven wrong smile

p.s. for what it's worth I also think that you should sync too! Ableton Link has been an absolute godsend for syncing DAW/iPad/Octatrack/Modular together - it's amazing!


I am using two ipads and a laptop along with my modular. Sometimes I even use Ableton link. But I find it isn't always necessary. I can start a loop on one ipad and just press play on the other one with my own sense of timing and they won't noticeably drift for several minutes.

PNWO has about the same degree of accuracy as my akai tomcat, which goes out of sync after a bar or two unless you sync it. I guess I was just hoping things were different. Maybe one day they will be, but I shouldn't let that stop me from enjoying the module (which is still amazing) or making music. Rockin' Banana!
guestt
Hehe, yeah! Back in the day, before the gear revolution, when we spent a lot of time trying to sync two computers running cubase (what a royal pain in the ass that was!) we often got fed up of trying and resorted to fingers poised over the mouse and 1&2&3&4&in! We got very very good at it, and after a few false starts could often have one or two hour jam sessions without significantly losing sync. That took years of practice though wink
c0nsumer
Can any of you tell me how well PNW can work for ratcheting? I've been thinking of picking up a Doepfer A-160-5 for CV controlled ratcheting (so I can set up or disable ratcheting via CV), and it sounds like PNW can do this as well (via CV control of a multipler parameter).

Have any of you done this / can you tell me how well it works out?

Thanks!
ugokcen
Look, I know nothing about the inner workings of PNW, but its clock sounds rock solid when it's on its own, and also when synced to a DAW with an audio pulse. My guess is this is just confusion about the what is on the display.

ALM: make sure that a 1 bar loop at 120 bpm is exactly 8 seconds long and all your troubles will vanish!
c0nsumer
ugokcen wrote:
ALM: make sure that a 1 bar loop at 120 bpm is exactly 8 seconds long and all your troubles will vanish!


...but time is relative and 8 seconds in one place is not the same as 8 seconds in another. wink
guestt
I was under the impression that the original poster of this problem had recorded loops that should have been 120bpm but were not and the display issue is separate, very common in many devices and not related.
Zymos
Am I mistaken, or is someone claiming PNWO is defective because it doesn't stay in sync when they don't sync it??
guestt
Zymos wrote:
Am I mistaken, or is someone claiming PNWO is defective because it doesn't stay in sync when they don't sync it??


I hope not - that would be very silly indeed!

It's not a complaint about what bpm is displayed either!

The complaint is, as I understand it, that 120bpm is not actually 120bpm and is quite a way out - which I think is a valid concern. There's no reason for this not to be accurate.
Zymos
Nope, different poster-

"I honestly thought that was what I was paying for when I bought PNWO, especially when I read phrases like "Improvements have been made to overall clock stability," and "BPM based clock with tempo rates 10-300BPM." "

As ALM said, if you want things to be in sync, then sync them.
ALM
Baddcr wrote:
Zymos wrote:
Am I mistaken, or is someone claiming PNWO is defective because it doesn't stay in sync when they don't sync it??


I hope not - that would be very silly indeed!


Nope this is how Im reading it too. Its very silly - it ruining this thread.

Baddcr wrote:

The complaint is, as I understand it, that 120bpm is not actually 120bpm and is quite a way out - which I think is a valid concern. There's no reason for this not to be accurate.


People have reported a 0.1BPM difference to an external unsynced clock once calibrated to it. Thats just under 7ms of difference on an 4 bar 120bpm loop - trivially fixed when importing into a DAW.

I repeat (please pay attention where I say looking to improve in a future update..) :-

ALM wrote:
OK I will investigate and try for better/more control over the calibration in a future update.

In the meantime if you need a very specific BPM and even after calibrating Pam you still don't get what you want either;

- Slave Pam to external clock which gives you what you want. Ignore any subtle difference in displayed BPMs. If it sounds in sync it is.

- Learn/use your DAW's tools to make minor tempo adjustments to, or sync to, audio imports.

- Just don't worry about, instead just make music & enjoy hyper


As for why there is not an Atomic clock in Pamela and it not being BPM accurate to an infinite amount of decimal places its purely because I never paid it that much attention believing it good enough and it more important to keep stable and physically sync very well to an external clocks (which is where alot of effort was put) if you wanted to match something. Also I had in mind that its trivial to fix BPMs in DAWs nowadays and believed that no one surely seriously syncs things by effectively not syncing them!

Can we please leave it at that.
adderbrew
Don't worry about the nitpickers, I just got mine last week, and I swear, this is the best damn thing to come to my rack! I need the expander badly razz
guestt
Right, thanks for the clarification ALM

I understood the difference to be much greater - if that's all it is it's within acceptable limits and I am now quite perplexed about what this whole thing has been about!

seriously, i just don't get it
MoogCloud
ALM wrote:
Baddcr wrote:
Zymos wrote:
Am I mistaken, or is someone claiming PNWO is defective because it doesn't stay in sync when they don't sync it??


I hope not - that would be very silly indeed!


Nope this is how Im reading it too. Its very silly - it ruining this thread.

Baddcr wrote:

The complaint is, as I understand it, that 120bpm is not actually 120bpm and is quite a way out - which I think is a valid concern. There's no reason for this not to be accurate.


People have reported a 0.1BPM difference to an external unsynced clock once calibrated to it. Thats just under 7ms of difference on an 4 bar 120bpm loop - trivially fixed when importing into a DAW.

I repeat (please pay attention where I say looking to improve in a future update..) :-

ALM wrote:
OK I will investigate and try for better/more control over the calibration in a future update.

In the meantime if you need a very specific BPM and even after calibrating Pam you still don't get what you want either;

- Slave Pam to external clock which gives you what you want. Ignore any subtle difference in displayed BPMs. If it sounds in sync it is.

- Learn/use your DAW's tools to make minor tempo adjustments to, or sync to, audio imports.

- Just don't worry about, instead just make music & enjoy hyper


As for why there is not an Atomic clock in Pamela and it not being BPM accurate to an infinite amount of decimal places its purely because I never paid it that much attention believing it good enough and it more important to keep stable and physically sync very well to an external clocks (which is where alot of effort was put) if you wanted to match something. Also I had in mind that its trivial to fix BPMs in DAWs nowadays and believed that no one surely seriously syncs things by effectively not syncing them!

Can we please leave it at that.


==============================================

Pam's New Workout is an awesome module. The ease of use, rapidity with which I can modify 8 outputs, the clarity of the screen, cause me to judge this module as one which Exceeded My Expectations. It's one of the few modules that hit that subjective mark. Excellent work!

It's peanut butter jelly time! applause thumbs up
Outtatune
Just to add to the "I love Pam's" theme. In my rig it replaced my Doepfer A-160-2 and A-160-5 combo, in the same HP, and with a tonne of additional features that are easy to access. I went from unboxing to using it in a live performance within 48 hours!

I'm syncing my Pam's with my Octatrack, Yarns, and Erica MIDI Trigg and the whole setup is rock solid.
skeller047
Two points:

1) Pamela's New Workout is everything and more than I expected, and it is the heartbeat of my rack now.

2) To those that complain about sync issues, and 120 BPM on device A is not the same as 120 BPM on device B, I have only this to say.

Go listen to some great "in the pocket" dance music - for example, James Brown's "I Feel Good". If you can get any device to sync with that, without some beat detector feeding a sync device, then I want to know what that is.
A great, danceable, booty-moving beat may not be accurate to the microsecond (or even millisecond), but who cares?

In other words, get a life, stop complaining about non-existent issues, learn how to sync things properly and, most importantly, make some good music!
dudeman
just fired mine up and gotta say WOW i'm super impressed!!!!! seems a really nice mix of intuitive and simple but also deep

big ups!!!
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