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WIGGLING 'LITE' IN GUEST MODE

LW *AND* 4U Stuff
MUFF WIGGLER Forum Index -> Music Tech DIY Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4 ... 9, 10, 11  Next [all]
Author LW *AND* 4U Stuff
J3RK
I was thinking of something along those lines. Maybe a bus routing PCB, and then individual or group channel strip sorts of things. I'm starting with just the main PCB + Control/IO PCB for main output use, but have added extra pads so that things can be connected internally. I haven't ordered prototypes yet, so I may add a few more connections.

Once I've tested that, and it's available for use as an output stage for LW boats/systems, (and yes, PCBs will be available) I'll start working on the addons. The main goal with this set of PCBs was to be able to fill a couple of CLee's boats, but there's absolutely no reason that these can't be used elsewhere. The PCBs are in 4U-style dimensions X" x 6" so 4U and 5U probably make the most sense unless you're looking at making 30-32 HP 3U modules. hihi

The main PCB is 4"x6" (so even a bit wide for 4U,) but the more I think about it the more single 1" wide channels could work, 2" bus modules, 1" LED meters, etc.
thresholdpeople
Great! 6" pcbs are perfect for my needs.

Are there many changes, other than pcb size, from your frac version of this?
J3RK
thresholdpeople wrote:
Great! 6" pcbs are perfect for my needs.

Are there many changes, other than pcb size, from your frac version of this?


Completely new actually. This one uses 4 THAT 2180 VCAs, and has voltage control over level and pan per channel (as well as manual of course). The final summing mixer is the same as the old mixer for trimming gain, and driving up to 600R loads and such, but everything before that has been updated.
J3RK
cygmu
All looking very cool.

Just a quick typo catch: the panel for the 1" Audio Mixer says "channel 2" in two places which I think is an error.

Every time I notice that this thread has been updated I get a little bit excited. Maybe I should get out more.
J3RK
cygmu wrote:
All looking very cool.

Just a quick typo catch: the panel for the 1" Audio Mixer says "channel 2" in two places which I think is an error.

Every time I notice that this thread has been updated I get a little bit excited. Maybe I should get out more.


Thank you! Fixed. I still need to update a few of the images as well, as I've fixed a few things, made things more consistent between modules, etc.

Edit: Uploaded the current set of panel drawings with fixes.
the bad producer
Looking great!

And one thing that I was going to say before but didn't, is it possible to make any PCB's not exactly inch increments in width? Or am I too late to the party! A little smaller would be cool if possible, like 4" is 101.6mm, so the PCB could be 100mm... This makes like so much easier when mounting into a rack / to a panel... I mean no worries if not, it doesn't really matter unless they're going to be parallel, and then judicious use of different length stand-offs does alleviate the problem somewhat... err, anyway I'm rambling!

thumbs up
J3RK
the bad producer wrote:
Looking great!

And one thing that I was going to say before but didn't, is it possible to make any PCB's not exactly inch increments in width? Or am I too late to the party! A little smaller would be cool if possible, like 4" is 101.6mm, so the PCB could be 100mm... This makes like so much easier when mounting into a rack / to a panel... I mean no worries if not, it doesn't really matter unless they're going to be parallel, and then judicious use of different length stand-offs does alleviate the problem somewhat... err, anyway I'm rambling!

thumbs up


hihi I finally listened to you on that. I brought the side-edges in just a tiny bit for some tolerance behind the panel on the new PCBs. (not quite 1mm, but I think it's enough to make them all play nicely) Well, I should say that I did this for PCBs that are the full width of the panel. I didn't do it on the ones that are smaller than the panel I laid them out for.

However, this was just on my prototypes. I can definitely bring them in on the board layouts for everything in this batch before making production runs of the PCBs.
thresholdpeople
Would this effect the hole location standards?
J3RK
thresholdpeople wrote:
Would this effect the hole location standards?


No, not at all. Still X.7" center to center. I start with the PCB at the full X" dimensions, place the mounting holes in the standard positions, then bring the edges in. The holes are unaffected.
thresholdpeople
Awesome.
J3RK
One more item I'm working on. It's really for a friend of mine who couldn't live without one hihi but I'm doing a Syrinx-style filter set. I'm not using CEM3350s, but rather my own OTA based filter cores. It's a low pass cascaded 4-pole, and two band pass only state variable cores. They'll have similar routing and mixing to the Syrinx or more specifically very close to the Buchla format Syrinx filter one off that shows up from time to time. I'll have some additional input mixing and output combinations as well. Anyway, I thought I'd mention that. I've got the schematic laid out for the set of cores, and am just finalizing the IO for it now. Should be fun.
the bad producer
Amazing! And amazing, would love a VCF like that!
woodster
I'm really liking all of these 4u offerings of late so look forward to adding more Stroh, especially a Syrinx Filter. Will you do panels Charlie ?
the bad producer
I think J3RK is doing panels, which is pretty cool, nice to have some variation of design!
J3RK
I'm definitely open to anyone doing panels. I'll have the default set, and will be posting the FPDs, so they can be customized, or ordered as is from FPE. However, I also realize that the ones I've made aren't going to suit everyone's tastes hihi
Reality Checkpoint
@ J3RK Will your Syrinx filter set be able to reproduce formant sounds? If, so yes please, if not then still yes please!
CLee
the bad producer wrote:
Looking great!

And one thing that I was going to say before but didn't, is it possible to make any PCB's not exactly inch increments in width? Or am I too late to the party! A little smaller would be cool if possible, like 4" is 101.6mm, so the PCB could be 100mm... This makes like so much easier when mounting into a rack / to a panel... I mean no worries if not, it doesn't really matter unless they're going to be parallel, and then judicious use of different length stand-offs does alleviate the problem somewhat... err, anyway I'm rambling!

thumbs up


I discussed this a bit with Charlie. With panel PCBs and boards parallel to the panel this is an issue with modules at the edges of the boat I'm working on. The boat is 16GA steel and has a measurable thickness. If the PCB goes right to the edge of the module then the module can't fit. It's not USUALLY a problem with right angle PCBs but could exclude certain modules from fitting first or last across the boat.

There's really no way to get around that with the design without making the boat larger than standard size. I'll post somethi pictures later.
Isaiah
The Ultra-Mirror and Operator both look like excellent alternatives to the Serge PCO.

The Operator feature set is far more interesting to me (I think I recall trying to
subtly hint that you should should make a PM VCO a few years ago, Dustin! hihi), but it lacks a triangle output which seems pretty desirable for use with the Serge Wave Multipliers.
Could the LEDs be replaced with wire jumpers (with appropriate resistor changes) and used as a point to tap the triangles?

The Ultra-Mirror replicates all the features of the PCO and then some.
Especially dig the Linear FM index VCA.

Will you be able to provide alternative component values to get the outputs to 5V P-P, and the inputs to respond fully to 0-5V or +/-2.5V as appropriate, please?
0-5V and +/-2.5V being the Serge standard, of course.

Thanks!
J3RK
Reality Checkpoint wrote:
@ J3RK Will your Syrinx filter set be able to reproduce formant sounds? If, so yes please, if not then still yes please!


The topology is identical to the actual Syrinx as far as the filters go internally. Instead of CEM3350s though I adapted my existing 4 pole low pass and state variable cores instead. The way the Syrinx works is that it uses 2 CEM3350s which each contain two state variable filters each. So they use the first IC as two bandpass (state variable) then cascade both of the second 3350's into a 4 pole. So, basically the same thing I've got only mine are broken out into OTAs and op amps.

All of the routes from the Syrinx will be possible, and then some, as I've added some extra inputs, outputs, mixing, etc. (so there will be a few more combined routes possible)

So, anything that it could do this will do, plus more. My friend wanted as close to a one to one clone as is possible, but I wanted it to do some new things as well, and make enough changes that I felt good that it actually wasn't a one to one clone. hihi

I've got all of the mixing and routing done now, so I just need to lay out a PCB. I'm using SMT (0805, SOIC, SOT23, SOD123) because he requested that it work in Euro. So there will be a smaller PCB available. I also want one that's the correct dimensions for 4U, so I can either do a 2x6 SMT, or maybe a 3x6 TH version. I'll see how it goes with the one I'm building for him, and then I'll be able to determine just how much space is needed for the 4U version.

If you google Synton Syrinx Filter (for images) you'll come across the Buchla format one that I mentioned above. The one I'm building will be very similar to this, but with a bit more IO and mixing. That one will give a good idea of the signal flow though.
J3RK
Isaiah wrote:
The Ultra-Mirror and Operator both look like excellent alternatives to the Serge PCO.

The Operator feature set is far more interesting to me (I think I recall trying to
subtly hint that you should should make a PM VCO a few years ago, Dustin! hihi), but it lacks a triangle output which seems pretty desirable for use with the Serge Wave Multipliers.
Could the LEDs be replaced with wire jumpers (with appropriate resistor changes) and used as a point to tap the triangles?

The Ultra-Mirror replicates all the features of the PCO and then some.
Especially dig the Linear FM index VCA.

Will you be able to provide alternative component values to get the outputs to 5V P-P, and the inputs to respond fully to 0-5V or +/-2.5V as appropriate, please?
0-5V and +/-2.5V being the Serge standard, of course.

Thanks!


Right now, audio signals are +/-5V. Unipolar CVs are now 0-5V (both from CV sources, and what unipolar CV inputs accept (such as VCA CV inputs.))

Everything is done using reference voltages, offsets are generated from standard op amp circuits, and there are plenty of inverting/re-inverting amplifiers for just about every input stage in all of these new designs and redesigns. This means that changing audio signal levels and bipolar CVs is a simple matter of a single resistor swap for the given input if you wanted to change the CV levels, or even audio levels in most cases.

The Operator (PM VCO) core is actual a 0-5V core. I use level shifting after that to actually generate the bipolar signals. Even those should be no problem to change to +/-2.5V levels (though they'd need a few more tweaks in some cases.)

I actually prefer 10V P2P signals because I like to be able to easily interface with 5U, 3U, etc. I'm a little less concerned trying to match Serge levels, but there's no reason that can't be done with what's available on each module. The UltraMirror would be the trickiest to shift levels on just due to all of the internal use of 10V references. So, if your goal is to integrate with Serge, this may not be the VCO to choose. Unless you want to do quite a bit of experimentation.

I am planning a Pico VCO update, and a Basic VCO update though that will make a good PCO alternative. The FlexWave would also be pretty easily adapted to Serge voltages.

As far as adding triangles on the Operator... My main goal was to do a TZPM OPL-style operator. I did add the phase modulated sawtooth out that you requested, but buffering and summing the triangles (the way the saws and sines are) would require almost another inch of PCB making it a 5x6 PCB. That's pretty huge for a single VCO, and I doubt many people want to dedicate that much space to something that really needs a pair of to reach their full potential. I may create a little 1" buffer/summing board that could be added on later, (and I can definitely add pads on the main PCB to make that easy). This PCB could also contain a comparator so PWM could be added as well. However, to start, the amount of sounds one could get out of a pair of Operators is pretty insane as it is. In fact, so much of the ground of a wave multiplier can be covered simply via the PM that I'm of the opinion that it wouldn't even be necessary to have one if these VCOs are used.

In fact, maybe a 2" buffer, mix, comparator board could be made that would supply enough of this for a pair of Operators that two of them with this "module" in the middle could make a really insane super-complex VCO setup. That would be around 10" of panel space for all of the necessary controls and IO though, so once again, I guess it depends on the size of system one wants to build around this.

One last little thought on this, is that I'm really not trying to compete or replace the many other options out there. So there's no reason a PCO couldn't be used, or one of Slightly Nasty's delightful discrete VCOs, or one of my other VCOs even. I could potentially strip down the Operator to a simpler saw-core VCO too at some point. With its 0-5V core, doing a table lookup also becomes REALLY easy with a simple ADC>FLASH>DAC setup. At this point, I've so overdone it on VCOs that I'm ready to work on some other items. hihi

I'd like to get some channel strips done for the output mixer, some filters, maybe some complex envelopes to complement the slope generators, etc.

I'm of course still open to suggestions, but where the Operator is concerned, the PCBs are so big and dense now, I think we're hitting diminishing returns by adding things.

w00t
Isaiah
J3RK
Thanks for the informative reply, Dustin.

My thinking was that I would use the Operator as a PCO alternative (with added TZ PM) in a Serge/CGS panel.
As you rightly pointed out, the complex tones available from TZ PM almost negate the need for wave multipliers.
It seems daft, and an injustice to your Operator design, to try to shoehorn a pair into a Serge system.
Thanks for reminding me of this.
The Operators are entirely deserving, both conceptually and in terms of comparability, of being the basis of a standalone voice.

After further thought, I can see you're right to have omitted the triangle outputs, even before considering the size.
The reason I suggested both static and shifted saws is that it allows something approaching Supersaw sounds, and summing both saws (one must be inverted) gives you a pulse (PM is now PWM.)
However, neither of these are essential additions.
Really, so long as there is a static saw output, and the static and shifted sine outputs available, that's all you need.
No need for the Operator to be a Jack of All Trades when it can truly be the Master of TZPM, so my apologies for possibly diluting the concept of the Operator.

How big is the Operator now? 4" x 6"? I thought it was 3" X 6" judging from the mounting holes on the panel at the start of this thread.
I plan to get a pair regardless, but if the additional shifted saw output is bumping up the PCB size, please do consider omitting it or consulting interested parties to see if they're bothered.
Sorry, that sounds like a demand or like my opinion is somehow noteworthy; I really don't mean it like that.
Just trying to undo my previous meddling if it's problematic or the pros outweigh the cons ha! hihi (EDIT: Strike that; reverse it!)

Yes, the Basic VCO would probably be the VCO to use in place of a PCO.

As always, thanks for making your designs available!
Guinness ftw!
J3RK
Actually, the extra op amps were needed to perfect the Phase CV section, and I had one left to buffer the phase shifted sawtooth, so that was easy. I just would need two more to sum them, and then six todo the full treatment on the triangles, so the triangles seemed the most easily sacrificed. I will add an extra header though for an expander. That's easy, takes no space and the board could either stack behind a new larger panel or become a small expander module.
ashleym
Terrible news.

I had just started adding 4U modules to a banana system and some expensive house stuff came up. How can I sneak this lot in to the house?

Looking forward to getting a good few of these.

Do we have some Loudest Warning panel designs coming?
CLee
CLee wrote:
the bad producer wrote:
Looking great!

And one thing that I was going to say before but didn't, is it possible to make any PCB's not exactly inch increments in width? Or am I too late to the party! A little smaller would be cool if possible, like 4" is 101.6mm, so the PCB could be 100mm... This makes like so much easier when mounting into a rack / to a panel... I mean no worries if not, it doesn't really matter unless they're going to be parallel, and then judicious use of different length stand-offs does alleviate the problem somewhat... err, anyway I'm rambling!

thumbs up


I discussed this a bit with Charlie. With panel PCBs and boards parallel to the panel this is an issue with modules at the edges of the boat I'm working on. The boat is 16GA steel and has a measurable thickness. If the PCB goes right to the edge of the module then the module can't fit. It's not USUALLY a problem with right angle PCBs but could exclude certain modules from fitting first or last across the boat.

There's really no way to get around that with the design without making the boat larger than standard size. I'll post somethi pictures later.


Here are a couple pictures. You can see the boat is about 1/16" thick (also if using rack ears you'll have that to deal with). So if the PCBs come right to the panel edge, those modules can't go first or last in the boat.


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