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Behringer MiniMoog Clone
MUFF WIGGLER Forum Index -> General Gear Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3 ... 34, 35, 36, 37, 38, 39  Next [all]
Author Behringer MiniMoog Clone
mousegarden
Shledge wrote:
I can see the benefits of owning the real deal, but the sound is pretty much the same to my ears.


It's the same old psychological story, even if the Boog is 120% like a Moog, it's not a Moog so it could never sound the same in our heads.

The benefits of owning a Moog...

The size
Big knobs
Nice keyboard...hang on, it's actually not that nice.
Wooden case
It's a Moog

Disadvantages of owning a Moog...

Cost
Space

Benefits of owning a Boog...

Cost
Space

Disadvantages of owning a Boog...

Small everything
No wood
No keyboard
It isn't a Moog

hihi
Shledge
It has wooden sides. wink
mousegarden
Shledge wrote:
It has wooden sides. wink


My Moog is almost in BST....

hihi
Carrousel
mousegarden wrote:
Shledge wrote:
I can see the benefits of owning the real deal, but the sound is pretty much the same to my ears.


It's the same old psychological story, even if the Boog is 120% like a Moog, it's not a Moog so it could never sound the same in our heads.

:


But what if you’re using it to make music and you just tell people that you used a Moog? What will people hear then?
Videographics
I have yet to see any pro evaluate a Boog without admitting it’s effectively a perfect analog clone of a Model D in a different form factor — sonically and functionally indistinguishable from the real thing — to the point that, if Moog did their own Model D remake in the eurorack form factor, sonically and functionally it couldn’t be any closer to the original.

I, for one, LOVE the feel and mystique of the original. I understand the appeal. I even think I may be inspired to play some things I wouldn’t play otherwise when I find myself so happy to have my hands on one.

If you see enough value in buying a Model D in the original form factor, you should get one if you have the resources. But you should do that for your own self-gratification knowing that even the most seasoned synth experts won’t be able to tell the difference unless they’re actually watching you play it. And many (including me) will see you playing the original and still won’t care, and might even be distracted by thoughts of how wisely you spend your money — wondering why you bothered paying thousands of extra dollars just to try to impress them with bigger knobs and that classic look. The emperor has no clothes.
revtor
Quote:
“If you see enough value in buying a Model D in the original form factor, you should get one if you have the resources. But you should do that for your own self-gratification knowing that even the most seasoned synth experts won’t be able to tell the difference unless they’re actually watching you play it. And many (including me) will see you playing the original and still won’t care, and might even be distracted by thoughts of how wisely you spend your money — wondering why you bothered paying thousands of extra dollars just to try to impress them with bigger knobs and that classic look. The emperor has no clothes.”


Would you really stand there and think that I bought my Minimoog to impress you?
Videographics
revtor wrote:
Would you really stand there and think that I bought my Minimoog to impress you?


Nah. I'm easily distracted and often think too much about stupid things, so I might wonder about that for a minute, but then I'd assume you bought it and use it because you like it and can afford it, or maybe you got it a long time ago.

I think MiniMoogs are truly awesome, but no longer because they're analog hardware synths with an amazingly unique classic sound that can't be replicated. They remain awesome because they're classic works of art, and in a great form factor with keyboards and controls that make them a joy to play. I see nothing wrong with loving them for that. And if you play better because they make you feel good or they remind you of the history behind them, that's even better.

I think what I was trying to say is that, for those of us really into this stuff, it's easy to conflate the value of the sound that comes from these classic analog hardware synths with the value that comes from them being works of art, performance controllers we particularly relate to, collectors items, or things that have value because they help project a particular image that might impress an audience or be helpful for promotion.

Cost aside, as some of these classic analog hardware synths get 'knocked off' so well that even the most experienced professionals can no longer tell the difference, and all the controls actually work identically (even if they're a bit smaller), and I start preferring the knockoffs for their consistency, reliability, and convenience, I start to feel increasingly indulgent and foolish as I try to maintain the originals. Deep down I know I don't NEED all the analog hardware synths I keep around, and witnessing their neglect certianly doesn't bring me any joy, but then there's all that nostalgia, and saying goodbye to old friends is damn hard to do. So where does that leave me?
mousegarden
A lot of the pleasure in playing my Reissue comes from the feel of it, the reassuring clunk of the octave switches on the oscillators when I'm "changing down" to add weight to the end of a solo, the lovely firm but smooth feel when adjusting detune, it reminds me of a similar feel I used to get with the vernier dials on my VCS3, very satisfying.
Everything about a real Mini is very sensuous, I know for a fact that I'd miss that on the Boog.
I bought my Mini for me, and me only, I certainly don't give a damn about what anyone else might think of me or how I spend my money.
lilakmonoke
anybody who mentions a minimoog and a VCS3 in a single post is a synth poser. just saying!

besides, its 2019 and the discussion boog vs minimoog is long over. im more interested in what you can do with a boog ie. i would like to modify the filter for more versatility and less bass resonance drop.

thats the only thing im missing with the boog, there is nothing wrong with the transistor ladder filter its the implementation. listen to this:

Videographics
lilakmonoke wrote:
anybody who mentions a minimoog and a VCS3 in a single post is a synth poser. just saying!

LOL
mousegarden
lilakmonoke wrote:
anybody who mentions a minimoog and a VCS3 in a single post is a synth poser. just saying!


OMG!!!

I can't even mention a synth "I used to own" let alone mentioning something I do, I"ll tell you what, let's just not talk about anything we own, it'll make life a lot simpler here on Muff's, that way we can't ever be accused of being arrogant or crass...

hihi hihi hihi
Videographics
mousegarden wrote:
lilakmonoke wrote:
anybody who mentions a minimoog and a VCS3 in a single post is a synth poser. just saying!


OMG!!!

I can't even mention a synth "I used to own" let alone mentioning something I do, I"ll tell you what, let's just not talk about anything we own, it'll make life a lot simpler here on Muff's, that way we can't ever be accused of being arrogant or crass...

hihi hihi hihi


BTW, I was lol that someone would say that in that way, not because I agree with what was said.
mousegarden
Videographics wrote:
mousegarden wrote:
lilakmonoke wrote:
anybody who mentions a minimoog and a VCS3 in a single post is a synth poser. just saying!


OMG!!!

I can't even mention a synth "I used to own" let alone mentioning something I do, I"ll tell you what, let's just not talk about anything we own, it'll make life a lot simpler here on Muff's, that way we can't ever be accused of being arrogant or crass...

hihi hihi hihi


BTW, I was lol that someone would say that in that way, not because I agree with what was said.


I better not mention that ARP2500 I once walked past in a shop on the other side of the street...

PS...

Actually, that was true, there used to be a great shop in Eversholt Street in London, Chase Musicians, I walked in one day and there right in front of me was an ARP2500, and.......a Jupiter 8......and a Moog Modular......I definitely had an embarrassing trouser moment.....

hihi hihi
lilakmonoke
have a look at this page there are some serious mods now out for the boog. PWM!, single oscillator detune, synch, its all there and really easy to implement. sounds awesome, too ...

https://www.gearslutz.com/board/modular-mania-all-things-eurorack-and- modular-synths-effects/1218816-behringer-model-d-diy-mods.html

manual: https://www.gearslutz.com/board/attachments/modular-mania-all-things-e urorack-and-modular-synths-effects/781277d1542788385-behringer-model-d -diy-mods-miniboog.pdf

[s]https://soundcloud.com/uibkmedan/sets/behringer-model-d-mods[/s]
Videographics
lilakmonoke wrote:
have a look at this page there are some serious mods now out for the boog. PWM!, single oscillator detune, synch, its all there and really easy to implement. sounds awesome, too ...

https://www.gearslutz.com/board/modular-mania-all-things-eurorack-and- modular-synths-effects/1218816-behringer-model-d-diy-mods.html


I dunno. I posted that link a few days ago as the only thing I could find. Maybe I didn't read it all closely enough but it looked to me like what was 'real' was some mocked up images of front panels, someone who built a case with a keyboard, an incomplete map of points on the PCB (no separate cv ins for the VCOs), and good intentions. I didn't see evidence of any successfully finished projects. Did I miss something?

CORRECTION: Looking more closely I see they do now have a pretty complete map of the PCB, but I still see no finished projects.]
lilakmonoke
> I see they do now have a pretty complete map of the PCB

thats what im saying. all you need to do is put a few sockets into a breakout box and connect wires. for me the main useful mods are:

- PWM because it sounds awesome
- outs for all 3 oscillators because they sound quite different without the mixer saturation
- red/brown/white noise out
- pitch CV in for all three oscs, mono-poly paraphonic chords
- vca and vcf in

and like i said mod the filter with 6/12/24 db outs and bass drop correction, which hasnt been figured out yet but should be not a big problem. you can correct the bass drop with an analog eq which is what im doing now. there is also a BP in there somewhere :-) actually now that i think about it: if you had a mixer for the LP/HP/BP signals you get all kinds of filters/eqs out of it.

if you combine a modded boog with a midibox like the last dude in the GS posts you end up with cv presets and a fully paraphonic minimoog. but thats kind of an insane project, just get a studio electronics se-1x instead.

IR
Smaller than mini, it's bini. BeanieBoog?
Videographics
lilakmonoke wrote:
> I see they do now have a pretty complete map of the PCB

thats what im saying. all you need to do is put a few sockets into a breakout box and connect wires.

Damn, you're right! Now I've got my soldering iron giving me that 'Well, what are you waiting for?' look. help
Videographics
lilakmonoke wrote:
- pitch CV in for all three oscs, mono-poly paraphonic chords
- vca and vcf in

A lot is documented but I still can’t find a number of these things you said were most useful:

For osc 2 & 3 pitch, are they both driven from osc 1 in a way that we’ll only have detune offsets instead of independent 1v/oct pitch cv over each one?

Do you see a way to do separate vca and vca in?
lilakmonoke
all you have to do is break the main pitch cv for osc1/2 when you insert a plug and you have independent pitches. same thing for vca / vcf in. i dont think you have to cut traces. just lift off one side of a smd component and connect that to your cv in socket. they are small but its doable. i think he talks on page 3 about that.

im fine with offset cv because i sequence from pure data and just write a patch for every possible frequency. im more interested in discrete number relationship tunings than midi notes. for that just add a patchpoint and done ...
Videographics
As a convenient reference, here's a link to the most recent (11/11/18) Boog mod document I was able to find on GS: https://www.gearslutz.com/board/attachments/modular-mania-all-things-e urorack-and-modular-synths-effects/779114d1541949511-behringer-model-d -diy-mods-behringermodeld_modifications_v2.pdf

The document provides good guidance to help someone wanting to poke around and try to setup independent pitch cv, but the author clearly states it's still not tested and the documentation remains a little unclear about this. Also, 3 weeks ago the author's said, "pitch cv is just a matter of time..." which leads me to think there's still not a tried and true solution for this.

I just don't see enough clear guidance nor evidence of anyone actually completing the independent pitch cv part of the mod successfully. lilakmonoke, do you know of anyone who's actually done this and has it working, or are you mainly going by the same information on GS like the rest of us?
lilakmonoke
i think you either have to wait or conduct further experiments just like these guys did. its all additive control voltage so fairly simple to understand and all you risk is 250$ ;-)

i will poke around until i find something that works. i dont understand circuits at all but a minimoog is not rocket science ... so finally here is the main difference between a mini and a boog: you can mess with the boog without having to worry about the imaginary "vintage value"!
felixer
Carrousel wrote:
mousegarden wrote:
Shledge wrote:
I can see the benefits of owning the real deal, but the sound is pretty much the same to my ears.


It's the same old psychological story, even if the Boog is 120% like a Moog, it's not a Moog so it could never sound the same in our heads.

:


But what if you’re using it to make music and you just tell people that you used a Moog? What will people hear then?

no, they will not hear anything wrong. they will hear a moog. and for a while the term 'moog' was used for any synth. just like the term 'fender-bass' was used for any sort of elektrik bass.
felixer
lilakmonoke wrote:
modify the filter for more versatility and less bass resonance drop.

this is a characteristic of any ladder filter. use an eq and a compressor to fix that ...
Maffez
Videographics wrote:
As a convenient reference, here's a link to the most recent (11/11/18) Boog mod document I was able to find on GS: https://www.gearslutz.com/board/attachments/modular-mania-all-things-e urorack-and-modular-synths-effects/779114d1541949511-behringer-model-d -diy-mods-behringermodeld_modifications_v2.pdf

The document provides good guidance to help someone wanting to poke around and try to setup independent pitch cv, but the author clearly states it's still not tested and the documentation remains a little unclear about this. Also, 3 weeks ago the author's said, "pitch cv is just a matter of time..." which leads me to think there's still not a tried and true solution for this.

I just don't see enough clear guidance nor evidence of anyone actually completing the independent pitch cv part of the mod successfully. lilakmonoke, do you know of anyone who's actually done this and has it working, or are you mainly going by the same information on GS like the rest of us?


hey ho, the gs guy that'll be me. in terms of the status of this, other stuff has kept me from progress, but basically it's what others have written here as well. pitch cvs in the mini/boog are additive, so it's a matter of disconnecting CV1 from VCO 2&3 and feeding respective cvs to these vcos for paraphonic play. has been done on original moogs/ the studio electronics guys did this for their midi-mini, as far as I know. surface mount resistors are just really small, which maybe requires more patience smile

a guy on a fb group has found a nifty way of decoupling the mod bus from VCO 1 in the meantime (lifting off a respective 51k6 and implementing a switch), which makes hard sync simpler and might give me the push to geting back to the pitch cv stuff.

as someone else was asking for VCF/VCA in - that can easily be done by using switched jacks on the input and output side of the vcf switch.

peace
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