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Capacitors Hunt - UFW1HR47MDD
MUFF WIGGLER Forum Index -> Music Tech DIY  
Author Capacitors Hunt - UFW1HR47MDD
Baddcr
Hey folks,

Anyone got any Nichicon UFW1HR47MDD 0.47uF 50V capacitors lying around please?

These are the ones:

http://www.mouser.co.uk/Search/ProductDetail.aspx?R=UFW1HR47MDDvirtual key64700000virtualkey647-UFW1HR47MDD

I'd rather not have to buy 200 of the buggers grin

I could look for a replacement, but would rather stick to the original spec if possible so it matches all the others I have like this.

Anyway, if anyone does have any I would be most grateful and recompense will obviously be made in whatever form suits smile

Guinness ftw!
Eric the Red
Would this work?
http://www.radwell.com/Buy/NICHICON/NICHICON/UFW1HR47MDD

I've never heard of this place nor have I ever ordered from them..

****nevermind, just saw the "must order a minimum of 4,000" Text, and the other spots on there all look to be sold out,
e-grad
Baddcr wrote:
Anyone got any Nichicon UFW1HR47MDD 0.47uF 50V capacitors lying around please?


Why not buy any another 0,47µF 50V? Same lead spacing, same or higher voltage rating by any quality make should be fine.
Baddcr
These are specifically rated for audio applications e-grad

I can't find anything else at the moment that will match up in that regard, they all seem to be 'general purpose' smile

I'm not sure what it is about them that make them different, but the other equivalents from Nichicon themselves do not have this listed as a feature.

Thanks Eric the Red I found a couple with that order quantity minimum too hehe - and here was me thinking 200 was overkill! I actually need just four smile
e-grad
Baddcr wrote:
These are specifically rated for audio applications e-grad


You can search for "Audio Grade Electrolytic Capacitors" and add the filters: 0,47µF plus lead spacing 2mm and Mouser will come up with a couple of hits that will be sold individually.
Cheradenine
Just go for the UKW1HR47MDD
It's exactly the same specs, and according to the nichicon datasheet it's even better for audio than the UFW Serie
Baddcr
Thank you all grin

I must have done something silly because when I searched Mouser before these didn't come up, anyway looks like I am sorted - thanks again!!!

Guinness ftw!
fuzzbass
What is it that makes some polarized caps "audio grade" besides gold colored wrapping? Do they sound warmer? razz Sorry, I know there is a serous answer to this question...

Lately I have gravitated to polarized caps that are rated for longer life or (for power supplies) higher temperature tolerance. With miniaturization coming into DIY, sometimes I need to look carefully at the package dimensions.
neil.johnson
fuzzbass wrote:
What is it that makes some polarized caps "audio grade" besides gold colored wrapping? Do they sound warmer? razz Sorry, I know there is a serous answer to this question...

They cost more.

Neil
fuzzbass
neil.johnson wrote:
fuzzbass wrote:
What is it that makes some polarized caps "audio grade" besides gold colored wrapping? Do they sound warmer? razz Sorry, I know there is a serous answer to this question...

They cost more.

Neil


Swot I thot. applause
mskala
I imagine they are claimed to have better specs overall - lower ESR, lower inductance to drive the self-resonant frequency above audio range, and so on.
neil.johnson
mskala wrote:
I imagine they are claimed to have better specs overall - lower ESR, lower inductance to drive the self-resonant frequency above audio range, and so on.

You can imagine what you like, the reality is much simpler.

Neil
mskala
neil.johnson wrote:
You can imagine what you like, the reality is much simpler.


What is your problem?
megaohm
mskala wrote:
I imagine they are claimed to have better specs overall - lower ESR, lower inductance to drive the self-resonant frequency above audio range, and so on.


I thought so, too, but I had to stop myself since I'm only basing that on the "audio grade" marketing. The audio market is so easily duped so if they can include the word they will.
Awhile back I saw WIMA was introducing an "audio" name branded cap type. My thinking is that they are the same polypropylene caps they have been selling but selected for 1% tolerance.
That's my cynical side.

My true deficit here is I don't know how to properly read and interpret capacitor datasheets.
Would appreciate any help, tips, pointers, links about that.

I use these occasionally for output stages. Never heard any difference with my ears and have never observed any differences with my scope.
My gear is not top notch so that may mean nothing.

I use them for the following reasons in order of importance:
- sold by a major company that has been around for a long time and has interest in protecting their rep.
- they are NOT expensive (cost difference for Nichicon FW and generics amounts to pennies).
- they are pretty (not joking!)
- marketed as "audio grade" (whatever that means...but it's in my brain now!)

What tests would Nichicon perform to check or determine these "audio" specs?

Looking at their chart I notice all the "audio grade" caps are 85C (except for one). Does the temp range depend entirely on the electrolyte used?
Is one type of electrolyte better for the 20Hz-20kHz range than another?
If so, why?
The highest placed in the chart is the KZ "premium grade" types.
Haven't used these but they are much larger, I think that this is to increase surface area of the aluminum layer which may result in better performance. I only read through some capacitor general info sheets and have likely forgotten or misunderstood a fair amount.

If no "audio" caps existed in the world I would guess there would be no significant difference but I find it an interesting subject and would love to read some useful comments on this.
neil.johnson
If you're interested in capacitors in audio applications Google for the articles by Cyril Bateman. Doug Self also touches on them in his Small Audio Signal book.

Summary: you don't need fancy caps, just keep the AC voltage below 80mV. And for longevity use 105C 2000 hour caps.

Neil
Baddcr
I feel duped... I hate it when companies play on general lack of knowledge like this because I really want to trust them and this kind of thing makes me feel like they are treating me like an idiot - and just because I don't know something does not make me an idiot!

So basically beyond the actual value of the cap, the voltage rating and longevity nothing actually matters - good to know!

Of course this means I am trusting you now neil.johnson

Mr. Green

edit: I've suddenly realised that 2000 hours isn't very long at all, at ten hours a day that's 200 days - not even one year!

Whats the story here because I have modules that have had waaaaaaay more hours use than that and they are fine!
mskala
Baddcr wrote:
edit: I've suddenly realised that 2000 hours isn't very long at all, at ten hours a day that's 200 days - not even one year!

Whats the story here because I have modules that have had waaaaaaay more hours use than that and they are fine!


It's a minimum time rating, and you are probably running them far cooler than the rated temperature for that time rating...
neil.johnson
Baddcr wrote:
I feel duped... I hate it when companies play on general lack of knowledge like this because I really want to trust them and this kind of thing makes me feel like they are treating me like an idiot - and just because I don't know something does not make me an idiot!

Companies like WIMA are targeting engineers, not Joe Public. Those engineers know how to cut through the marketing spiel.

Quote:
So basically beyond the actual value of the cap, the voltage rating and longevity nothing actually matters - good to know!

Depends on the application. For example, some LDOs don't work with capacitors with very low ESR - they need some series resistance to stabilize the control loop. However in most audio applications why worry about a few Ohms of ESR when the capacitor is in series with a 100k resistor?

Quote:
Of course this means I am trusting you now neil.johnson

Mr. Green

Don't trust me. Please don't. Use that critical thinking organ between your ears.

Quote:
edit: I've suddenly realised that 2000 hours isn't very long at all, at ten hours a day that's 200 days - not even one year!

Whats the story here because I have modules that have had waaaaaaay more hours use than that and they are fine!

The figure quoted - 2000 hours - is the rated life at the rated temperature (105C in this case). For every 10 degree drop the life doubles. So lets say your modular operates at an internal temperature of 45 degrees. That is 60 degrees lower, so the expected minimum lifetime is now 2^6 * 2000 = 128,000 hours. That's about 14 years of continuous operation. And if your modular spends more of its time off, then the average temperature comes down. For an average temperature of 25 degrees that's another 20 degrees drop, so take that 128,000 hours and multiply by 2^2 giving 512,000 hours. The average life expectancy of a human is around 600,000 hours, so your modular should last about as long as you.

Of course that's not taking into account other effects on the capacitors - for example the seals are not perfect so they will eventually dry out, which is why recapping works on 30+ year old equipment.

Neil
Baddcr
That's really helpful info neil.johnson, mskala - especially the longer explanation about the life span of components - thank you for taking the time to write that I really appreciate it.

You are right, I am Joe Public, not totally ignorant but not a EE degree graduate either, so I have to trust other people, that's just how it is... for now wink

Of course I am using my grey matter, as much as I can and soaking up information as much as I can, but I can't be expected to be able to parse all the information required to make informed judgements about things that I am told, and experience confirms, that it can take years to fully understand. Hence the need to trust others in the mean time... one day I will get there, that's what I do, but I am quite happy taking years to complete things and do a lot of other things that take up time and brain cycles too smile

I am pushing my boundaries with this stuff all the time though, I spend a lot of time reading and researching, I promise I will get there... eventually!

Anyway, thank you again, learned some more things today

This is fun!
fuzzbass
Wow you folks turned this discussion exactly where I hoped it would go - toward lifecycle and stability, and away from "fidelity". Audio really means very low frequencies, but less tolerance for noise. In most cases the demand on the caps is low. My early reading on this amounted to: as long as you are in the ballpark and observe voltage ratings, there is a lot of wiggle room in audio circuits. Building synths, the main exception is when the cap itself is selecting an operating frequency (ex: RC network in a VCO core). Then you spend more money on precision or temp stability and this just generally means film caps - but not expensive unless 25 cents is expansive.

Some other things I figured out in my shambling way:

Don't use electrolytic caps for DC blocking (aka AC coupling) on an input stage. They develop a charge and therefore a small offset will be passed on. Use C0Gs or Polypropylene film here.

If you want a really non-leaky cap, say for HOLD in a sample and hold, use a polystyrene. But treat them gingerly because if you overheat them, they get super leaky. Styrenes are bulky compared to other caps same value.

Try to avoid caps that look cool.

Use X7Rs for decoupling power rails at one penny a piece.
slow_riot
The behaviour of many caps is dependent on the voltage bias across them (electrolytic, x7r ceramic etc), but at a virtual ground node there is almost no bias and voltage dependent distortion is minimal.
neil.johnson
fuzzbass wrote:
Don't use electrolytic caps for DC blocking (aka AC coupling) on an input stage. They develop a charge and therefore a small offset will be passed on. Use C0Gs or Polypropylene film here.

You'll need large values to avoid HF shelving once you get to sane values of input resistors (100k is way too high - far too much thermal noise). For minimal distortion you want to minimise the AC voltage across the capacitor. For example, for a 10k input impedance and a low frequency point of 20Hz you need around 47uF assuming 5V RMS input.

If you just consider the -3dB point assuming ideal capacitors, then for 10k input impedance you need around 800nF for the same 20Hz point. In reality you need more since all those -3dB filters soon add up to a loss of low-frequency energy.

Personally in modular synths I prefer to use non-polar electrolytics at AC inputs and outputs. Reason being that in a modular synth as the designer you have no control over what other modules are going to be plugged in, could even be a hugely negative control voltage, or a dodgy DIY build with an op-amp stuck at one of the rails, so don't rely on a sane environment.

Neil
mmagin
Frankly, 0.47 µF electrolytics seem like an artifact of how consumer products were designed 30 years ago, I totally expect to find (cheaper versions of) such a part in old stereo equipment.

AFAIK, the manufacturers of capacitor-grade polystyrene films got out of that business years ago, which makes me really skeptical of the quality of supposedly "new" polystyrene capacitors. (And if you do use them, never overheat them or wash them!)

Personally, I avoid electrolytics except where they are the only cheap/small way to get decent capacitance or where a design relies on the higher ESR of an electrolytic/tantalum (some LDO regulators will oscillate with misapplication of MLCC ceramics).

If a lack of microphonics (e.g. very low level signals and/or high mechanical vibration) or relatively good stability was important I'd use something like http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/WIMA/MKS0C034700E00KSSD
but if the precise value didn't matter, an ordinary X7R ceramic like http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/TDK/FG18X7R1H474KRT00 would probably be just fine most of the time.

If you're willing to compromise on voltage rating or size, you might be able to find 0.47 µF NP0 ceramic capacitors.

If you really wanted to be conservative about the component choice, Nichicon data sheets have some suggestions for upgrades to other series they make. In this case it suggests UKW or UFG, you might want to see if they have those in stock in the same value/voltage/lead spacing.
megaohm
Baddcr wrote:

Anyone got any Nichicon UFW1HR47MDD 0.47uF 50V capacitors lying around please?


I could look for a replacement, but would rather stick to the original spec if possible so it matches all the others I have like this.


What is the piece of gear you are fixing?
Do you have a circuit for it?
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