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WIGGLING 'LITE' IN GUEST MODE

Charles Cohen is dead
MUFF WIGGLER Forum Index -> Buchla, EMS & Serge  
Author Charles Cohen is dead
amnesia
Charles Cohen is dead
mutierend
Yes he is.
MATSmile
Sad. sad banana
Rest in peace Charles.
Triglav
darmklacht@gmail.com
That sucks...
I'm also really fucking pissed because of the shit he had to go thru in his last days.
RIP
danielecrocenzi
I listened to her live in Italy, it was great.
dan_p
Sad news, RIP Charles Cohen
Neovintage
I am so sad about it. RIP Charles Cohen. Thank you for your music cry
emememe
Rip.
bwhittington
darmklacht@gmail.com wrote:
That sucks...
I'm also really fucking pissed because of the shit he had to go thru in his last days.
RIP


The man's troubles seem to have been of his own making, entrapment or not (and his lawyers didn't bother arguing entrapment in court). I don't really fault anyone for their deviant interests, and I understand how a person could end up in his position, but acting as he did still crosses a significant line.
JamieDrouin
His music continues to be an immeasurable influence on me, as is his creative persistence, with the majority of his work over the last five decades made in relative obscurity. Deepest thanks to Rabih Beaini for revealing Charles Cohen's work to a wider audience, and etching it into a more enduring physical medium.
papz
He was a genius in improvisation. His amazing work introduced me to the Easel.
I'm very happy I could see him live a few years ago and briefly speak with him.
ritchiedrums
Glad I got to see him a few times in Philadelphia
BananaPlug
JamieDrouin wrote:
His music continues to be an immeasurable influence on me, as is his creative persistence, with the majority of his work over the last five decades made in relative obscurity. Deepest thanks to Rabih Beaini for revealing Charles Cohen's work to a wider audience, and etching it into a more enduring physical medium.


Ditto. And thanks for Rabih's picture.

I was lucky to be around for most of those decades of obscurity. He played all kinds of shows, off the radar basement shows, a Gothic church, facing a sphinx in a museum. One piece of advice: "Play everyday."
authorless
I will miss him.

Here is a short clip of he and I playing a show together from 2009:



And a direct recording of that show:

[s]http://soundcloud.com/charles-and-sean/live-082209[/s]
http://soundcloud.com/charles-and-sean/live-082209

And two other jams we recorded in his apartment from the last time I visited him in 2013:

[s]http://soundcloud.com/charles-and-sean/charles-buchla-music-easel[/ s]
http://soundcloud.com/charles-and-sean/charles-buchla-music-easel

and

[s]http://soundcloud.com/charles-and-sean/cc-music-easel-sean-buchla-2 00[/s]
http://soundcloud.com/charles-and-sean/cc-music-easel-sean-buchla-200
Minimoog56
Kaddish for Charles Cohen - Artists often have flaws in their personal lives but the art is what endures. Rest in peace.
mheumann
Very sad news. His amazing music lives on and will continue to inspire me—as it will all of us.
gone
"flaws in their personal lives" ????

http://www.phillymag.com/news/2017/02/06/charles-cohen-child-sex-case/

*final comment deleted out of respect for the feelings of anyone who may have known Charles personally*
Minimoog56
and Woody Allen and Balthus and Picasso and the Eagles (!) and just about a million other creators - you can't f-em all...
drewskee
Well this is very sad and disturbing on a whole lot of levels. Leaving his personal proclivities aside he was an innovator and unique voice with his knowledge and approach to Buchla and the Easel. Bleeps and Bloops no more from Charles....RIP
Hi5
Minimoog56 wrote:
and Woody Allen and Balthus and Picasso and the Eagles (!) and just about a million other creators - you can't f-em all...


Actually, you can.
MATSmile
donnachacostello wrote:
"flaws in their personal lives" ????

http://www.phillymag.com/news/2017/02/06/charles-cohen-child-sex-case/

F**K Charles Cohen.

He is still an incredible artist and musician. I think people need to separate personal lives of the creators and their art.
Also, saying such a things about person who recently died is not just ill-mannered, it just shows how much of an asshole you are.
gone
MATSmile
I don’t care what you think of me.
gone
I’ll take back my coarse final comment, out of respect for the feelings of anyone who knew Charles personally.

I won’t take back my dismay at the eulogising of a man who committed the crimes he did and I find myself unable to separate the man from the art.
papz
gone
papz

If you’re drawing moral equivalence between the kind of vanilla everyday “sins” of regular people and Charles happily meeting a 14 yr old for sex, carry on.
eek!
amnesia
Do we know how he died?
sungja
It is wrong to speak ill of dead people. RIP
Minimoog56
sungja wrote:
It is wrong to speak ill of dead people. RIP


Agreed. He died broken no doubt.
Minimoog56
sungja wrote:
It is wrong to speak ill of dead people. RIP


Agreed. He was punished for this crime and accepting of the punishment according to the coverage of his trial.
Dcramer
Sigh.
Imagine.
Imagine the hunt.
Imagine the catch.
Imagine having the power to choose.
Compelled by greater authority you stand upon the brink of your own awakening madness, all vestiges of humanity ripped from you as all friend or foe flee your path.
The strange new music rising to your ears.
The music of someone else's throw away child.
Sobbing.
Traumatized.
Rescued.
Intervened.
Protected.
RadioTelefonik
sungja wrote:
It is wrong to speak ill of dead people. RIP


So's pedophilia.

But, if what Minimoog said is correct, and that he truly understood why what he did was bad, then at least that's good. A person can't control who or what they're into, but they can control whether or not to act on those impulses. He made the wrong choice and he should've been better. I won't avoid his music, and it's always sad when a person dies, but people can't be expected to act like he did no wrong. Dude could sure play, though.
Orwell
Just Leave the guy alone and to rest in peace.
T of J
sungja wrote:
It is wrong to speak ill of dead people. RIP


If you're religious or superstitious maybe (which is fine if you are) but those are artificial rules that I don't prescribe to.
I can still listen to Charles' music...or Wagner or David Allan Coe
...but that doesn't mean they aren't fucked up people with fucked up beliefs and/or actions.
To say that the dead don't deserve critique treads a path toward revisionist history.
tmeade
How about..
have compassion for all beings, living and dead. I try.

RIP Charles.
slow_riot
I'm guessing none of you have had experience with the survivors of sexual violence. That's a trauma no-one ever forgets.

They deserve your thoughts more than trying to immortalize a human being simply because you respect his work. In many cases the survivors of sexual violence go on to offend themselves, so it is probably more respectful to Charles to be open about his mistakes than to absolve him posthumously, as though you are some kind of God.
MATSmile
Wow, I knew people on Muffs were fucking awful, but not THAT awful. not this shit again
... This is RIP thread, if you don't feel like you have anything to say on this topic, DON'T FUCKING POST ANYTHING.
Dcramer
slow_riot wrote:
I'm guessing none of you have had experience with the survivors of sexual violence. That's a trauma no-one ever forgets.

They deserve your thoughts more than trying to immortalize a human being simply because you respect his work. In many cases the survivors of sexual violence go on to offend themselves, so it is probably more respectful to Charles to be open about his mistakes than to absolve him posthumously, as though you are some kind of God.


This is the point I make in My awkward poem.
These trauma's take flight, landing upon and infect all those touched by it.
waah
slow_riot
Dcramer wrote:


This is the point I make in My awkward poem.
These trauma's take flight, landing upon and infect all those touched by it.
waah


Ah the first time I read it I wasn't sure of the context, thanks for sharing.

Hug
sduck
Folks, this is a RIP thread. Please post any off topic thoughts elsewhere. Thank you.
gone
sduck wrote:
Folks, this is a RIP thread. Please post any off topic thoughts elsewhere. Thank you.


I’m in favor of remembering the whole man.
Anything else is dishonest.
I don’t think that’s off topic.
He was a great Buchla player.
He was convicted of attempting sex with a 14 year old.
synthi
Why is this a RIP thread??? "Charles Cohen is dead" is an informative name.
I don't think you can't speak of the bad things just because people is dead, thats IMO a good way to cover crimes and a disrespect to the victims of those crimes.
I think Charles Cohen is a music pioneer and admire his art.
But he is also a criminal and and blame the man for that.

I hope he really realized the bad acts and the hurt he made before he dies.

I hope all we can open and free speech and take down taboos
Nelson Baboon
I think that it's unfortunate (as usual) that people don't understand the good points that others are making, and try to incorporate them into a more inclusive and complex view.

Many things are true here, and yet somehow they are not mutually exclusive.

Yes, it's a RIP thread, and so with some abstract notion of purity one would only post positive comments directed very narrowly at that subject. However, unless someone has had some influence on our lives beyond simply that they lived and died, they don't get this kind of thread, so comments about their lives are relevant in a RIP thread, and not off topic if they diverge from this narrow focus.

One can remember the survivors of sexual abuse, and also feel compassion for those who commit these actions. One can feel compassion for anyone, even those (and I'm certainly not implying that he was one of these) who feel no compassion for others, for in some way that is a great tragedy in a person's life, and I think rather rarely comes about after a joyful childhood.

I think that the thread would be kind of strange, actually, if this incident were not mentioned at all. I don't think that whitewashing a person's life adds to remembering them as a person.

I'll also say that (I hope this doesn't stray too far into the political), I have a great deal of difficulty with this kind of undercover law enforcement work. there have been numerous cases that I've read about (mostly in the area of terrorism) where people were entrapped into conspiracies and actions that they likely would not have engaged in otherwise. I remember reading (from his lawyer?) that they had an entrapment case here, but that for reasons of Charles' health, they didn't put up a defense. In any case, he was arrested for propositioning a police detective.

I really am unfamiliar with his work. Can anyone recommend specific pieces to listen to?
drift
Nelson Baboon wrote:


I really am unfamiliar with his work. Can anyone recommend specific pieces to listen to?


His album Brother I Prove You Wrong is on YouTube
ezra
I've heard it time ago, it was an enchanted live
adamon
His personal life aside, he had a huge impact on me as far as how far one can go with "learning" an instrument. He was uncanny to say the least with his easel. When the new run of easels was first announced, I kind of had a "well there goes the neighborhood" reaction initially however to this day I've yet to hear someone do so much with one as he.

Nelson, a classic for me is this: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Zra0EOXRe3A

This was well ahead of the "hey check out some kewl shallow depth of field shots of my friend playing his modular" trend that followed. It was around the time that I was still just beginning to have any notion of where these damn sounds were coming from and what the hell this weird box that looked like a toy had to do with it.

Not matter what form, I imagine his legacy with his instrument will live on.
doombient.music
Charles turned me on to Buchla stuff in general and the EH 16 Second Delay in particular back in 1991 when he was portrayed in Keyboard Magazine's Discoveries. That was at a time no-one knew of Buchla over here in Europe, mind you.

Mazeltov, Charles.

Stephen
Triglav
Some context that I haven't seen before:

Quote:
At the time of the incident, Cohen was on a medication known as Mirapex to treat Parkinson's disease, which he said contributed to sexual compulsivity.

Cohen's attorney, Scott A. Harper, praised Cohen's qualities.

"He was one of the nicest persons I've ever met," Harper said. "He had no ill will towards anyone, not even the policeman that arrested him nor the prosecutor. He was kind and gentle and very soft-spoken. He was the king of his field. He crescendoed too late to enjoy his recent successes. His European fans will hopefully understand his situation and remember him for the beautiful music he once created. He was good but humble. He will be missed."


http://www.epgn.com/news/local/12575-musician-dies-two-months-after-re lease-from-jail
vytis
"Brother I Prove You Wrong" is a beautiful record! Buchla 222e I have it on vinyl and love playing it as a lullaby to my son. Sends him to sleep each time.

Charles Cohen... Beautiful music, sad ending... May his troubled soul rest in peace.
ektoquip
drift wrote:
His album Brother I Prove You Wrong is on YouTube

Wow... this is good stuff.

EQ
Peake
Triglav wrote:
Some context that I haven't seen before:

Quote:
At the time of the incident, Cohen was on a medication known as Mirapex to treat Parkinson's disease, which he said contributed to sexual compulsivity.

Cohen's attorney, Scott A. Harper, praised Cohen's qualities.

"He was one of the nicest persons I've ever met," Harper said. "He had no ill will towards anyone, not even the policeman that arrested him nor the prosecutor. He was kind and gentle and very soft-spoken. He was the king of his field. He crescendoed too late to enjoy his recent successes. His European fans will hopefully understand his situation and remember him for the beautiful music he once created. He was good but humble. He will be missed."


http://www.epgn.com/news/local/12575-musician-dies-two-months-after-re lease-from-jail


waah
ritchiedrums
http://www.therotunda.org/event/memorial-for-charles-cohen-1945-2017
adamon
Perspectives: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=viwAEsSvac4
evening
There were some 60-70 people in attendance at the memorial last night, from O.G. Philly greybeards recalling decades-old friendships to younger performers who were grateful to have benefited from his wisdom and generosity when they were new on the scene.

A few close friends provided some insight into the physical and emotional difficulties of his last months, as the effects of Parkinson's and the prescribed medications took their toll. Heartbreaking to hear...

I was fortunate enough to have performed with Charles perhaps a dozen times through the mid-90s and early aughts. There's ample evidence of his brilliance as a solo performer, but his agility on the easel was equally phenomenal in the context of group improvisation. He truly was a great listener.


RIP CC, thanks for the music.
brandonlogic
i downloaded the charles cohen bleepsandbloops soundcloud page before the account got removed/deleted... if you were a fan of his work you need this. some really great easel sketches here not available anywhere else. download them here:

https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/0BxavGT_WU-IhZmhUWXoyVnVxOFE?us p=sharing
authorless
brandonlogic wrote:
i downloaded the charles cohen bleepsandbloops soundcloud page before the account got removed/deleted... if you were a fan of his work you need this. some really great easel sketches here not available anywhere else. download them here:

https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/0BxavGT_WU-IhZmhUWXoyVnVxOFE?us p=sharing


Bless you, brandonlogic.
evening
Thanks Brandon!
slipperysoles
brandonlogic wrote:
i downloaded the charles cohen bleepsandbloops soundcloud page before the account got removed/deleted... if you were a fan of his work you need this. some really great easel sketches here not available anywhere else. download them here:

https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/0BxavGT_WU-IhZmhUWXoyVnVxOFE?us p=sharing

Thank you !
musicalfungus
brandonlogic wrote:
i downloaded the charles cohen bleepsandbloops soundcloud page before the account got removed/deleted... if you were a fan of his work you need this. some really great easel sketches here not available anywhere else. download them here:

https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/0BxavGT_WU-IhZmhUWXoyVnVxOFE?us p=sharing


Thank you soo much for sharing this!!!
gentle_attack
donnachacostello wrote:
papz

If you’re drawing moral equivalence between the kind of vanilla everyday “sins” of regular people and Charles happily meeting a 14 yr old for sex, carry on.
eek!

Pretty sick tbh. The again the bible says you can stone your slave, or wife, for not believing in Jesus.

If I'm looking for spiritual guidance form someone who may or may not have lived 2000+ yrs ago... I think I'll learn about someone a bit more peaceful. :buddha:
ModusOp
brandonlogic wrote:
i downloaded the charles cohen bleepsandbloops soundcloud page before the account got removed/deleted... if you were a fan of his work you need this. some really great easel sketches here not available anywhere else. download them here:

https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/0BxavGT_WU-IhZmhUWXoyVnVxOFE?us p=sharing


Thank you so much, Brandon! These bleeps and bloops were some of my favorite tracks on SC!

Also, RIP Charles.

I wrote him a few times via Soundcloud messages asking him about his looping techniques and what he thought of the newer Easel vs old, etc. He was always very kind and helpful. It was so hard to accept what went down a year or two later.
brandonlogic
hey no prob guys. i also uploaded it as a single track to my soundcloud as a private track for easier listening/streaming (you can only access it with this link)

https://soundcloud.com/brandon-logic/ccohen-bleepsandbloops/s-65XEv
Minimoog56
Thanks Brandon. Wonderful tribute. Wonder Charles relationship with Philly neighbors the Arkestra. Boy would have loved to see that jam session!
dan_k
Minimoog56 wrote:
Thanks Brandon. Wonderful tribute. Wonder Charles relationship with Philly neighbors the Arkestra. Boy would have loved to see that jam session!


Try here for an extended jam session on WMFU. Broadcast in three parts.

https://wfmu.org/playlists/shows/50948
https://wfmu.org/playlists/shows/51043
http://wfmu.org/playlists/shows/56189
Minimoog56
Thank you Dan! This is why I love Muffs and WFMU - right up my wheelhouse - wonder how I missed this one!

applause
Two legends of Sun Ra's Arkestra performing today live! A visit to Brian's show from Marshall Allen (alto sax) and Danny Ray Thompson (baritone sax) from the Arkestra, joined by Ed Wilcox on drums and vocals, Jerry Mayall (both longtime members of Temple of Bon Matin) on upright bass, plus electronic music pioneer Charles Cohen. This newly-expanded, active working band has evolved out of Wilcox's five European tours with Allen, and we're severely honored to have them make music in the WFMU studios at last! This is part one of the marathon live session, to be continued next week!
Dr. Sketch-n-Etch
erased cuz it didn't make any sense
Vsyevolod
From the Wikipedia page on Mirapex and related drugs:


Several unusual adverse effects of pramipexole (and related D3-preferring dopamine agonist medications such as ropinirole) may include compulsive gambling, punding, hypersexuality, and overeating, even in patients without any prior history of these behaviours.

...just to add a little balance...

Stephen




.
GrantB
"Punding" = new word for the day, thanks Muffs
mdoudoroff
Leaving a link, here, to Claire Dederer’s thoughtful new essay, “What Do We Do with the Art of Monstrous Men?” (Paris Review, November 20, 2017)

https://www.theparisreview.org/blog/2017/11/20/art-monstrous-men/

The article does not concern Cohen directly, nor am I equating him with the (mostly Hollywood) figures discussed in the article, nor am I seeking further discussion here. I just feel the article is broadly relevant, remarkable, and may interest some.
RadioTelefonik
Vsyevolod wrote:

Several unusual adverse effects of pramipexole (and related D3-preferring dopamine agonist medications such as ropinirole) may include compulsive gambling, punding, hypersexuality, and overeating, even in patients without any prior history of these behaviours

.


It was still his decision to act on those impulses. You can deal with those feelings from the comfort of your own bedroom, by yourself.
MATSmile
mdoudoroff wrote:
Leaving a link, here, to Claire Dederer’s thoughtful new essay, “What Do We Do with the Art of Monstrous Men?” (Paris Review, November 20, 2017)

https://www.theparisreview.org/blog/2017/11/20/art-monstrous-men/

The article does not concern Cohen directly, nor am I equating him with the (mostly Hollywood) figures discussed in the article, nor am I seeking further discussion here. I just feel the article is broadly relevant, remarkable, and may interest some.

OK, I wish I could give a meaningful response to the article where obviously biased person tries to define 'a monstrous men' and ends up talking about herself more then anything else, but I can't, because there is no meaningful response to the meningless article.
As you can tell I also like long sentances.
CuriousWicked
mdoudoroff wrote:
Leaving a link, here, to Claire Dederer’s thoughtful new essay, “What Do We Do with the Art of Monstrous Men?” (Paris Review, November 20, 2017)

https://www.theparisreview.org/blog/2017/11/20/art-monstrous-men/

The article does not concern Cohen directly, nor am I equating him with the (mostly Hollywood) figures discussed in the article, nor am I seeking further discussion here. I just feel the article is broadly relevant, remarkable, and may interest some.


Well that was an intense read! Holy cats.
luchog
RadioTelefonik wrote:
Vsyevolod wrote:

Several unusual adverse effects of pramipexole (and related D3-preferring dopamine agonist medications such as ropinirole) may include compulsive gambling, punding, hypersexuality, and overeating, even in patients without any prior history of these behaviours

.


It was still his decision to act on those impulses. You can deal with those feelings from the comfort of your own bedroom, by yourself.


Well, no, that's the problem, the disinhibition effect that certain medications can produce means that they can't choose to control their behavour. That's why those behaviours are listed as potential side effects.

That's one of the reasons that those types of medications most commonly used as a last-resort when other treatments fail, and why they include warnings to contact your doctor immediately should you encounter any unusual or profound urges.

Trauma to or degeneration of certain parts of the brain, most notably the pre-frontal cortex, can have similar disinhibitory effects leading to uncontrolled or high-risk behaviour.

The brain is a highly complicated organ, and any number of different neurological disorders, organic damage, degenerative disorders, and trauma to various parts of the brain can cause some really weird stuff. Examples, Verbal Dysdecorum, the inability to censor one's speech, and the victim ends up saying anything and everything that comes to mind, no matter how inappropriate and rude (caused by right pre-frontal cortext trauma); Broca's Aphasia, the inability to form words, even though they're still able to speak; Dismimia, the inability to recognize body language, particularly hand gestures; Alien Hand Syndrome, where the body is unable to recognize or control one limb, the victim feels like it's not part of their body, caused by corpus callosum dysfuntion.

Medications can have some unusual paradoxical effects as well. People with endogenous depression who are just starting on anti-depressants have a higher risk of suicide for the first few weeks than those with untreated depression.

Unfortunately, the law is not always in step with the science, often deliberately in places where religious beliefs are preferred to scientific evidence; and not all doctors are as good about informing patients of potential side effects of medication, or following up on their patients to ensure that they are not experiencing any difficulties with their medications.

If this was caused by the medication, which seems highly likely, then it's partly the doctor's fault for not working with him to prevent these dramatic changes in behaviour, and his lawyers' for not educating themselves on the effects of this particular medication and investigating it as a mitigating factor.
Soy Sos
Replying to MATSmile's comment:
I don't think that was a meaningless article at all.
captnapalm
luchog wrote:
RadioTelefonik wrote:

It was still his decision to act on those impulses. You can deal with those feelings from the comfort of your own bedroom, by yourself.


Well, no, that's the problem, the disinhibition effect that certain medications can produce means that they can't choose to control their behavour. That's why those behaviours are listed as potential side effects.


There's emerging science that indicates possibly none of us has free will at all.
https://news.stanford.edu/2017/05/08/biologist-robert-sapolsky-takes-h uman-behavior-free-will/
luchog
Soy Sos wrote:
Replying to MATSmile's comment:
I don't think that was a meaningless article at all.


Aside from a few minor quibbles, I found it rather insightful, and I tend to agree with most of what she said. (I also think that Manhattan was overrated.) But I've been through the "separate the art from the artist" argument many times in the recent past.
Nelson Baboon
captnapalm wrote:
luchog wrote:
RadioTelefonik wrote:

It was still his decision to act on those impulses. You can deal with those feelings from the comfort of your own bedroom, by yourself.


Well, no, that's the problem, the disinhibition effect that certain medications can produce means that they can't choose to control their behavour. That's why those behaviours are listed as potential side effects.


There's emerging science that indicates possibly none of us has free will at all.
https://news.stanford.edu/2017/05/08/biologist-robert-sapolsky-takes-h uman-behavior-free-will/


LOL - science cannot prove that we don't have free will at all, except by engaging in reductionism that makes the notion pretty meaningless, or by actually predicting the exact behavior of human beings. (Edit - these articles, written for 'lay folk' are generally pretty silly. For instance, on the surface, isn't the following statement self contradictory? "For me, the single most important question is how to construct a society that is just, safe, peaceful – all those good things – when people finally accept that there is no free will.")
Vsyevolod
luchog wrote:
...the disinhibition effect that certain medications can produce means that they can't choose to control their behavour. That's why those behaviours are listed as potential side effects.


Very well written Luchog, thanks for the sense of balance you bring to this discussion.

When first reading about Charles Cohen and the arrest and prosecution, I fell readily into the trap of wanting to blame him for something. Digging a little deeper brought me to the Wikipedia article about the side effects of these drugs. I am in no position to judge anyone, this just opened up possible alternate ways of looking at the picture. Luchog has done a great job of opening it up even more.

Thanks for that.

Stephen




.
rec.Koner
I separate music from artist. Music isn't guilty for sins of creator.

Though i'd say best works of Cohen were collabs or bands. Especially Straylight.
prototek
Whether he knew what he did was wrong or not, we as a society should not white wash, or gloss over something as serious as child sex abuse. Someone brought up how most abusers have been abused... Yes, there is a lot of facts to back that up but shifting the role of victim over to the perpetrator is simply counter-productive. Children are the future of this world and should be protected. IMO, Mr. Cohen died at a very convenient time. Heaven knows death seems like a wonderful option when you look at the alternative of living as a social pariah or what others would more colorfully call "scum of the earth".

Well, on the upside, that's one less kiddie-fiddler on the planet.
prototek
Stephen, thanks but I don't see how your comment adds balance.
If Mirapex had a side effect that makes one want to have sex with an underage partner then it would possible add "a little balance".
Let me get this straight... Are there really people out there that think just because Charles was feeling "hyper sexual" due to his meds that it makes it ok he agreed to have oral sex with a 14 y.o.? Why not find a partner who is legal? All the Mirapex thing does is establish it's possible he was feeling "hyper sexual". The medication has nothing to do with his predilection for under age boys.

Vsyevolod wrote:
From the Wikipedia page on Mirapex and related drugs:


Several unusual adverse effects of pramipexole (and related D3-preferring dopamine agonist medications such as ropinirole) may include compulsive gambling, punding, hypersexuality, and overeating, even in patients without any prior history of these behaviours.

...just to add a little balance...

Stephen
prototek
captnapalm wrote:
There's emerging science that indicates possibly none of us has free will at all.
https://news.stanford.edu/2017/05/08/biologist-robert-sapolsky-takes-h uman-behavior-free-will/


Ha! A fundamental truth that governments have been trying to stop the general populace from knowing for a long time now!

I read the article. The man is talking utter bosh. He says we have no free will but yet he doesn't give "reason 1" behind his preposterous statement. Just looks like another narcissistic scientist/scholar trying to make a name for himself by saying something ridiculous, hoping others will read it as new and innovative. As far as the psyche goes, there's really nothing new under the sun. What's funny is how it causes some of these guys to say some of the most hilarious things!
But yeah, free will... As long as one is not a slave, they have free will. When you decide what you're eating for breakfast you have exercised free will. To get this on topic; when you choose your sexual partner you're doing it too. Just saying.

- John
prototek
Nelson,
Brilliant! With critical thinking becoming a lost art, I delight when I come across a rare post like yours. Glad I wasn't the only one horrified by that charlatan's article. Can't say I'm surprised though... The way it's become so normal these days to not take or bear responsibility it was only a matter of time before someone said that we're powerless to even make our own decisions! Sheesh!

Nelson Baboon wrote:

LOL - science cannot prove that we don't have free will at all, except by engaging in reductionism that makes the notion pretty meaningless, or by actually predicting the exact behavior of human beings. (Edit - these articles, written for 'lay folk' are generally pretty silly. For instance, on the surface, isn't the following statement self contradictory? "For me, the single most important question is how to construct a society that is just, safe, peaceful – all those good things – when people finally accept that there is no free will.")
prototek
Oh and BTW, if I see another person mention Woody Allen or see another another article linked from here with his photo I'm going to go mad!

Here's a reality check about Woody... In the 1980s he was dating Mia Farrow who as you may or may not know adopted several children whilst married to the brilliant pianist/conductor/composer; Andre Previn in the 1970s.
Around 1989, Woody started to have "relations" (consensual) with one of Mia's daughters; Soon-Yi Previn. She was 19 at the time. A few years later, Allen married her and they have been together since. So would someone tell me... What's the big deal? The only thing he did that could be considered bad (from a moral perspective) was to begin the relationship while him and Mia were still technically together (although they were on the outs).

OK. I'm definitely done with this one. If anyone is compelled to discuss anything further better use my PM.[/i]
rec.Koner
This forum needs audo-add script which merge new post by same user with previous one if they are posted in quick succession.
wavecircle
prototek wrote:
Oh and BTW, if I see another person mention Woody Allen or see another another article linked from here with his photo I'm going to go mad!

Here's a reality check about Woody... In the 1980s he was dating Mia Farrow who as you may or may not know adopted several children whilst married to the brilliant pianist/conductor/composer; Andre Previn in the 1970s.
Around 1989, Woody started to have "relations" (consensual) with one of Mia's daughters; Soon-Yi Previn. She was 19 at the time. A few years later, Allen married her and they have been together since. So would someone tell me... What's the big deal? The only thing he did that could be considered bad (from a moral perspective) was to begin the relationship while him and Mia were still technically together (although they were on the outs).

OK. I'm definitely done with this one. If anyone is compelled to discuss anything further better use my PM.[/i]


Didn't Woody Allen raise the child as his own? I'd argue that would constitute long term grooming. Of course it is not quite a serious as child molestation but it's pretty dark behaviour.
slow_riot
One reason why i feel that it's relevant to mention that child molestation can be linked to similar trauma in the perp is that it fights the notion that frank discussion of this topic tarnishes the memory of the perp. Where in fact contemplating the full cycle of abuse might be the best way to honour their memory and increase the awareness society has for these crimes by navigating the middle ground between silence and hysteria. Merry Xmas!
Peake
I usually want to understand WHY someone has a glaring problem. As someone who has been through hopeless addiction and dual diagnosis mental illness and engaged in behaviours literally beyond my control (I'm still responsible for repairing anything that can be, however) I've learned sometimes there are Reasons and maybe people should stop a second and attempt to Understand instead of leaping to throwing rocks. People who don't understand they're the Jerry Springer audience. On the other hand, some destructive people simply are what they are...but differentiation is important.
legionhwp
I knew Charles for over 20 years and have stayed quiet on this “discussion”. I believe everyone is entitled to their opinion of one’s actions and/or art and can even be as judgmental as they want if they think it’s a good idea to do so in public. However, that also includes me answering things like the following post:

prototek wrote:
“Are there really people out there that think just because Charles was feeling "hyper sexual" due to his meds that it makes it ok he agreed to have oral sex with a 14 y.o.?”


There are people who acknowledge he did NOT have oral sex with a 14 yo. These people include the police and the court. For all anyone knows he may never have. It could all have been some elaborate role play or otherwise. You may feel that’s improbable but reality is that with context it could be quantifiable reasonable doubt.

“Why not find a partner who is legal?”

He did. He placed an ad on CL in the adult personals section looking for an adult partner for adult things. The cop answered his adult ad for adult things and despite the emails no one can definitively prove what he would have done or said had he actually met an adult (or someone posing as an adult or 14yo). He was arrested for having placed an adult ad on and adult page and talking to an adult who claimed to be 14. He had no prior history of any crimes including sexually related ones.

“All the Mirapex thing does is establish it's possible he was feeling "hyper sexual". The medication has nothing to do with his predilection for under age boys.”

Again, there was no proof or evidence he HAD a predilection for underage boys. He pleaded no contest and his attorney explained why.

I’m not saying he didn’t show poor judgement but think about the actual reality of this: Police thought it a good idea to troll adult classifieds of men looking for adult partners on a public adult personals page under the pretense this would “catch” “criminals”. They didn’t answer or post adds on an underground site that traffics in underage escorts. They targeted adults looking for adults. And, of course in this case, gay men.

Had it gone to trial he had a case and could have fought it (others have). No one will ever know the outcome because his health and circumstances but I find it ignorant to take what actually happened and immediately conclude things like he had a predilection for or molested underage children.

Also, this: https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2013/10/entrapped-when-craigslist- predator-stings-go-too-far/

“Our analysis suggests the government should not be in the business of testing the will of law-abiding citizens with elaborate (if improbable) fantasies of sensuous teenagers desperate to engage in sexual acts with random middle-aged men," wrote the judge handling Aguirre's appeal.”
luchog
legionhwp wrote:
I knew Charles for over 20 years and have stayed quiet on this “discussion”. I believe everyone is entitled to their opinion of one’s actions and/or art and can even be as judgmental as they want if they think it’s a good idea to do so in public. However, that also includes me answering things like the following post:


One thing commonly missing in discussions about this and related subjects, is exactly that sort of sanity and reason. Too much there is the rush to judgement without knowing all, or in some cases any, of the actual facts.

Thank you for bringing in facts and reason.

There has long been a problem with stereotyping homosexual men as sexual predators and child molesters; and a large number of these sorts of over-reaching "sting" operations are intent on proving that stereotype.
prototek
wavecircle wrote:

Didn't Woody Allen raise the child as his own?


Nope. Didn't even live in the same household. The media did their best (just like they did with Michael Jackson) to paint W.A. as a lowlife, paedophile. Unfortunately, the majority of the population are content to accept the "facts" that are presented by the media.
bwhittington
prototek wrote:
Here's a reality check about Woody...


Not sure how this crept up, but you should probably brush up on the allegations of Dylan Farrow before going to bat for Woody Allen. The part about still not being able to look at toy trains because her experience as a 7 year old leaves quite an impression.
prototek
That's a thoughtful post. I actually agree with a lot of the things you bring up. I've thought about this since I first posted and while my feelings about child sex abuse remain unchanged, I feel that Charles Cohen, despite what happened wasn't a sexual predator. In fact, the more I think about it, the more I can't help but think how he posted a completely legal ad in the "personals" on Craigslist (sorry, don't know what that section is called) only to get a reply from the police (posing as a 14 y.o.). I had a friend who was offered a stereo and it turned out the guy was an undercover cop. When my friend claimed entrapment, the policeman said he gave my friend a tip about it being stolen when he said to him, "boy, it's really hot out today". For those who don't know, "hot" is slang for stolen. So I know how the police can sometimes play dirty.
I'm just left wondering one thing... Some members here who knew Charles said he preferred young men. The gulf between that and a 14 year old is quite large. When he got the reply and saw the young age (14) I wonder why on earth he didn't put the breaks on?

So, I just wanted to say that my paedo-anger was misplaced in my original posts. I'm friends with someone who used to do a lot of work with victims of that stuff and it's a very easy topic (for me at least) to become emotional over.

On another note, has a cause of death been ascertained?

legionhwp wrote:
I knew Charles for over 20 years and have stayed quiet on this “discussion”. I believe everyone is entitled to their opinion of one’s actions and/or art and can even be as judgmental as they want if they think it’s a good idea to do so in public. However, that also includes me answering things like the following post:

prototek wrote:
“Are there really people out there that think just because Charles was feeling "hyper sexual" due to his meds that it makes it ok he agreed to have oral sex with a 14 y.o.?”


There are people who acknowledge he did NOT have oral sex with a 14 yo. These people include the police and the court. For all anyone knows he may never have. It could all have been some elaborate role play or otherwise. You may feel that’s improbable but reality is that with context it could be quantifiable reasonable doubt.

“Why not find a partner who is legal?”

He did. He placed an ad on CL in the adult personals section looking for an adult partner for adult things. The cop answered his adult ad for adult things and despite the emails no one can definitively prove what he would have done or said had he actually met an adult (or someone posing as an adult or 14yo). He was arrested for having placed an adult ad on and adult page and talking to an adult who claimed to be 14. He had no prior history of any crimes including sexually related ones.

“All the Mirapex thing does is establish it's possible he was feeling "hyper sexual". The medication has nothing to do with his predilection for under age boys.”

Again, there was no proof or evidence he HAD a predilection for underage boys. He pleaded no contest and his attorney explained why.

I’m not saying he didn’t show poor judgement but think about the actual reality of this: Police thought it a good idea to troll adult classifieds of men looking for adult partners on a public adult personals page under the pretense this would “catch” “criminals”. They didn’t answer or post adds on an underground site that traffics in underage escorts. They targeted adults looking for adults. And, of course in this case, gay men.

Had it gone to trial he had a case and could have fought it (others have). No one will ever know the outcome because his health and circumstances but I find it ignorant to take what actually happened and immediately conclude things like he had a predilection for or molested underage children.

Also, this: https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2013/10/entrapped-when-craigslist- predator-stings-go-too-far/

“Our analysis suggests the government should not be in the business of testing the will of law-abiding citizens with elaborate (if improbable) fantasies of sensuous teenagers desperate to engage in sexual acts with random middle-aged men," wrote the judge handling Aguirre's appeal.”
Peake
prototek wrote:

I'm just left wondering one thing... Some members here who knew Charles said he preferred young men. The gulf between that and a 14 year old is quite large. When he got the reply and saw the young age (14) I wonder why on earth he didn't put the breaks on?


We'll never know, although drug side-effects are NOT to be underestimated. Listen to how many side-effects exist and are listed in the drug ads on US television. Suicidal thoughts and actions are a biggie. -Actions-. Some of these drugs cause people to engage in suicidal actions; some succeed in killing themselves and that's how they learn what side-effects exist for a drug and they're forced to list them as a danger. =You may kill yourself if you take this drug=. We're supposed to take that completely seriously because it's been empirically proven to occur for some using that drug. If the known side-effect of the drug Charles was on includes hyper-sexuality, compulsion may have been a factor, because compulsion is a known-side effect only varying in form. It's safe to hypothesize, lacking further information, that he did not engage in underage sex and was blind-sided by meds! It's a fucking tragedy either way. I hope anyone filled with behaviours they know are destructive, finds a safe expert to talk to and begin the process of finding health. If you have compulsions you know are going to harm others you have a responsibility to understand and treat them.

I believe exactly -because- this is a super hot-button topic that it -must- be responded to with scrutiny instead of kangaroo courts. Humans love to judge and to reject, not to think and provide healing.
luchog
prototek wrote:
So, I just wanted to say that my paedo-anger was misplaced in my original posts. I'm friends with someone who used to do a lot of work with victims of that stuff and it's a very easy topic (for me at least) to become emotional over.


As a victim of child sexual abuse, I can definitely understand the hot-button response, as that was my response for many years. But I also spent a couple years in the recent past involved with therapy groups, seeing the other side of that equation, so it's much harder for me to join the lynch mobs these days. Especially after seeing how many sexual abusers were themselves sexually abused as children.

Peake wrote:
prototek wrote:

I'm just left wondering one thing... Some members here who knew Charles said he preferred young men. The gulf between that and a 14 year old is quite large. When he got the reply and saw the young age (14) I wonder why on earth he didn't put the breaks on?


We'll never know, although drug side-effects are NOT to be underestimated. Listen to how many side-effects exist and are listed in the drug ads on US television. Suicidal thoughts and actions are a biggie.
(...)
I believe exactly -because- this is a super hot-button topic that it -must- be responded to with scrutiny instead of kangaroo courts. Humans love to judge and to reject, not to think and provide healing.


Yes, exactly. Not just medications, but certain mental illnesses as well. I've had several friends and acquaintances with degenerative bi-polar disorder, and related disorders, get into some seriously bad trouble because their medication simply quit working; one of whom is now living on the street due to being full-time delusional and incapable of functioning, and another who committed suicide at the culmination of a big blow-out sex-and-drugs binge.
cycad73
Granted, the sexual act did not actually take place.

Granted, the person who lured Charles into this (after initially rejecting the offer -- this is all in the transcript), was a 40-something cop, with a mind and manner of a ... 40-something cop. So you never know, if it actually was the 40-year old "presence", not the 14 year old boy, to which Charles was attracted.

Granted, these lures target only specific populations while other populations (Roy Moore) can abuse with impunity and no one cares and then there are even groups trying to defend it.

I get all this (I hope...)

Nonetheless, it's impossible to overestimate the pervasiveness or the damage done by child sexual abuse.. You have to catch the abuse before it happens. Once it happens it is already too late, it's not worth the risk. You can't have a society without somehow addressing this. This is why I'll never be convinced even in appreciation of the facts -- Charles was clearly in the wrong at some level.

Now what's not rational, what's not right on my part, I've had a very difficult time since the arrest listening to his music despite that it has deeply influenced me for almost 15 years, and the "idea" of it for longer -- sometime in the 90's I heard about him, at the time modular as a live instrument was unthinkable, it completely blew my mind... also in those years he absolutely forbade anyone to record him because performance *was* the work -- both (at the time) earth-shattering ideas

So to not listen, to let the incident color what he has done, this does great violence to an art that has so deeply impacted our own work. Nonetheless, victory is not so cheap -- we cannot simply proclaim the separation of art and artist and be done. That is rather an ideal -- what should be. But it takes tremendous effort because as much as we'd like to avoid it, we remain imprisoned in our own thoughts and feelings about the work. There is no work "in itself", never was. We know the work only through how it affects us. Just as the past conditions the present, the present flows into the past, it affects the past to the extent we can know it. Or -- there never really is anything but the present moment, a moment which creates both past and future.

To achieve the separation art/artist, we must question the source of the unacceptability that flows into the art -- which is nothing but the fear that we too may be capable of something monstrous. ("Something", it's never the thing being considered, it's always something else, how do you know you won't become a fascist, etc. It's always where one doesn't look). Rather than keep up a real moral vigilance, we offload the problem, we surround ourselves with nice, safe, beautiful things, we have some faith that art can save us, because this is so much easier than considering that we actually may be the problem. So by not even trying to achieve the separation -- not the cheap separation that is simply posited beforehand, but the real, hard-won separation where we can come to accept even tainted work we are in fact perpetuating a world where horrible crimes will continue to happen.

The fact that great people can do horrible things, means also that we can do horrible things, and this is why this process is so difficult. But we cannot avoid it, either by ignoring the art, or by excusing the crimes.
Peake
cycad, are you concluding that Charles was guilty of sexually abusing the under-age? Asking gently because you ask for a society where child sexual abuse can never again occur while simultaneously accusing someone for whom there are apparently no accusers and that is exactly the sort of act a judgemental society uses to harm the innocent and to push those who may actually have a proven problem from seeking help to work upon it for fear of this exact and worse judgement. The cycle can't be made to end without compassionate treatment of those suffering childhood trauma they do not wish to repeat upon others or those who have taboo compulsions or concepts they do not wish to act upon. AFAIK there are no known instances of Charles engaging in under-age sexual contact. Unless this is proven incorrect it might be a good idea to take as his baseline and truth.

"This is why I'll never be convinced even in appreciation of the facts"...you wrote. Well...is there any pain underlying this position.
cycad73
Peake wrote:
cycad, are you concluding that Charles was guilty of sexually abusing the under-age?


Absolutely NOT. All the facts establish there was no child, and that the person to whom he was responding after first saying NO, was a 40+ year old man, who communicated with the mind and manner of a 40 year old man. This much is clear from the transcript.

I am just saying I cannot completely accept what he did, that it troubles me, and that the fact there would be some consequences is justified.

This is consistent with the legal record, all charges except solicitation were dropped.

Quote:

Asking gently because you ask for a society where child sexual abuse can never again occur while simultaneously accusing someone for whom there are apparently no accusers and that is exactly the sort of act a judgemental society uses to harm the innocent and to push those who may actually have a proven problem from seeking help to work upon it for fear of this exact and worse judgement.


Well then maybe the solution is to get him help... just that I can't agree nothing should be done.

Quote:

The cycle can't be made to end without compassionate treatment of those suffering childhood trauma they do not wish to repeat upon others or those who have taboo compulsions or concepts they do not wish to act upon. AFAIK there are no known instances of Charles engaging in under-age sexual contact. Unless this is proven incorrect it might be a good idea to take as his baseline and truth.


Agreed. I take that as truth. "Taboo" is a funny word here, the problem is exploitation, specifically acts with those who cannot or do not consent (and certain relationships also eliminate consent even if both parties are adults) It goes to fundamental conditions under which one can have a society, not what a particular society thinks is "taboo". If there is mutual consent I couldn't care less...

Quote:

"This is why I'll never be convinced even in appreciation of the facts"...you wrote. Well...is there any pain underlying this position.


Tremendous pain, yes. This has actually affected me a lot over the past 2 years, as I explained i find it difficult to listen to his music now despite how important it has been. As I explained this is not a valid or rational position, because it just creates a false bubble in which I am never the problem ... but is nonetheless something I need/hope to work through. Unfortunately I'm not able to work through it by completely excusing what happened, I have to take the harder path and it is painful.
Peake
I hope you find peace about this.

I used the word "taboo" because as a childhood sexual abuse survivor myself, it's difficult to repeatedly type those words and stare at them. I still have sorrow to process and I'm not used to facing the old pain all day long as responding in this thread has brought about. I am against non-consensual acts and that absolutely includes abuse and exploitation of children. I very nearly died in a "freak accident" when I was in my early teens and I fully desired to leave the planet, fully. Have been destroying myself in various ways ever since. Thanks for your detailed reply.

Edit: I did NOT want to make this thread about me. I just wanted to say that even as someone who endured abuse I still look for facts instead of assuming or listening to gossip on such important subjects. Do Charles a favor and remember he didn't do anything.
Nelson Baboon
Well, i do think that it's important to mention that the "underage partner" was a police detective (or planted by the police - can't remember the details). It makes for a far more complex situation than you dismiss below - if he had never for instance done this before, but was lured by police entrapment in this case, is he essentially guilty of a 'thought crime'?

This is all one of these situations that I think, for the most part, is presented too simplistically by most people. I'm not 100% convinced that this drug can render someone not responsible at all for one's actions. But responsibility is something that we judge, not something that somehow inheres to the cells or the soul. There can be things in ones life (whether drugs, or events) which make it harder for a person to control themselves, or cause them to 'break', and I think then the judgement of responsibility becomes more nuanced.

But I simply do not believe in police entrapment of people. I do not believe that people should be arrested for events in which the victims are fictitious. I believe this fundamentally on a moral level, but also because I've read too much about overly zealous traps, and dishonesty by law enforcement, where people who would never have committed these crimes in 'real life' wind up going to prison for a very long time.


prototek wrote:
Stephen, thanks but I don't see how your comment adds balance.
If Mirapex had a side effect that makes one want to have sex with an underage partner then it would possible add "a little balance".
Let me get this straight... Are there really people out there that think just because Charles was feeling "hyper sexual" due to his meds that it makes it ok he agreed to have oral sex with a 14 y.o.? Why not find a partner who is legal? All the Mirapex thing does is establish it's possible he was feeling "hyper sexual". The medication has nothing to do with his predilection for under age boys.

Vsyevolod wrote:
From the Wikipedia page on Mirapex and related drugs:


Several unusual adverse effects of pramipexole (and related D3-preferring dopamine agonist medications such as ropinirole) may include compulsive gambling, punding, hypersexuality, and overeating, even in patients without any prior history of these behaviours.

...just to add a little balance...

Stephen
Nelson Baboon
I think that this notion that we should as a society take actions to stop crimes before they happen has as a presupposition that it is possible to create a society where people never do bad things to other people, and even simply that bad things will never happen to people. It ignores the possibility that these over zealous actions can actually cause great harm to people. I don't know what the statistics are, but I would imagine that the number of people suffering long prison sentences, or have suffered violence themselves, as a result of various forms of entrapment isn't trivial.

Hence I find rather a large but subtle contradiction in views like the below, in that we are generating great harm to 'theoretical' abusers, because we are creating methodologies where we are predicting future behavior.

There is somehow also the implication (by some) that by recognizing the humanity in all people we are somehow trivializing the harm that is done by child abuse and other crimes. This is not the case at all. I just don't believe that we need to create this cartoon world where this is obvious evil and obvious good and that these are not categories that we have created and judge ourselves. If anything, our ability to do so in a just and humane manner is what's important, not that we eradicate abuse before it happens.

cycad73 wrote:
Granted, the sexual act did not actually take place.

Granted, the person who lured Charles into this (after initially rejecting the offer -- this is all in the transcript), was a 40-something cop, with a mind and manner of a ... 40-something cop. So you never know, if it actually was the 40-year old "presence", not the 14 year old boy, to which Charles was attracted.

Granted, these lures target only specific populations while other populations (Roy Moore) can abuse with impunity and no one cares and then there are even groups trying to defend it.

I get all this (I hope...)

Nonetheless, it's impossible to overestimate the pervasiveness or the damage done by child sexual abuse.. You have to catch the abuse before it happens. Once it happens it is already too late, it's not worth the risk. You can't have a society without somehow addressing this. This is why I'll never be convinced even in appreciation of the facts -- Charles was clearly in the wrong at some level.

Now what's not rational, what's not right on my part, I've had a very difficult time since the arrest listening to his music despite that it has deeply influenced me for almost 15 years, and the "idea" of it for longer -- sometime in the 90's I heard about him, at the time modular as a live instrument was unthinkable, it completely blew my mind... also in those years he absolutely forbade anyone to record him because performance *was* the work -- both (at the time) earth-shattering ideas

So to not listen, to let the incident color what he has done, this does great violence to an art that has so deeply impacted our own work. Nonetheless, victory is not so cheap -- we cannot simply proclaim the separation of art and artist and be done. That is rather an ideal -- what should be. But it takes tremendous effort because as much as we'd like to avoid it, we remain imprisoned in our own thoughts and feelings about the work. There is no work "in itself", never was. We know the work only through how it affects us. Just as the past conditions the present, the present flows into the past, it affects the past to the extent we can know it. Or -- there never really is anything but the present moment, a moment which creates both past and future.

To achieve the separation art/artist, we must question the source of the unacceptability that flows into the art -- which is nothing but the fear that we too may be capable of something monstrous. ("Something", it's never the thing being considered, it's always something else, how do you know you won't become a fascist, etc. It's always where one doesn't look). Rather than keep up a real moral vigilance, we offload the problem, we surround ourselves with nice, safe, beautiful things, we have some faith that art can save us, because this is so much easier than considering that we actually may be the problem. So by not even trying to achieve the separation -- not the cheap separation that is simply posited beforehand, but the real, hard-won separation where we can come to accept even tainted work we are in fact perpetuating a world where horrible crimes will continue to happen.

The fact that great people can do horrible things, means also that we can do horrible things, and this is why this process is so difficult. But we cannot avoid it, either by ignoring the art, or by excusing the crimes.
Dcramer
Peake wrote:
I hope you find peace about this.

I used the word "taboo" because as a childhood sexual abuse survivor myself, it's difficult to repeatedly type those words and stare at them. I still have sorrow to process and I'm not used to facing the old pain all day long as responding in this thread has brought about. I am against non-consensual acts and that absolutely includes abuse and exploitation of children. I very nearly died in a "freak accident" when I was in my early teens and I fully desired to leave the planet, fully. Have been destroying myself in various ways ever since. Thanks for your detailed reply.


Hug thank you for your brave words Peake, I truly hope you find peace.
ritchiedrums
This post has gone in a strange direction.

I find it very interesting that there isn't one person attacking his work.

This forum is about synthesizers & this sub forum is about Buchla.

It is a fact that A LOT of people wouldn't know Buchla existed if it weren't for Charles.

I think it is wonderful that on a synth/music forum not one post says anything negative about his work.

Was Bach A child molester ?
Was Bach molested as a child??
~ I don't think there is anyway to accurately answer these 2 questions.

Hopefully as time goes on Charles Cohen will be remembered for his sounds & continue to influence young musicians in a positive way.

I saw Steve Moore w/Charles Cohen in Philadelphia, 13 April 2013.
Immediately after that show I went home & tried to imitate some of the sounds I heard..... No access to Buchla at that time:



I realize everybody's life experiences & outlooks are different.
But I do hope that when each of us are dead & gone,
our Pluses Outshine Our Negatives......
Guinness ftw!
confusedmachine
Quote:
our Pluses Outshine Our Negatives......


Our Pulses Outshine Our Negatives.
mousegarden
I only discovered Charles Cohen a few days ago, introduced to him by a fellow wiggler.
I've just read this entire thread, I'm very surprised, or should I be?
Life never ceases to surprise, disturb, and amaze me with its many twists and turns, that we as human beings create.
Life is messy, confusing, the most unlikely qualities often exist in us simultaneously. Some others here have said that you have to seperate the person from the art. Charles Cohen, from what I've heard and read, would hate that view, he said about his music "it's all me" and my guess is that he thought about all aspects of his life that way.
Bottom line is...would he have produced such great music if he'd not been "him" and lived the life he did, pain and all?
This is terribly sad, I discovered someone new and ended up almost in tears reading this.
evening
Time, place, position and circumstance will reveal us all.
mousegarden
ritchiedrums wrote:
This post has gone in a strange direction.

I find it very interesting that there isn't one person attacking his work.

This forum is about synthesizers & this sub forum is about Buchla.

It is a fact that A LOT of people wouldn't know Buchla existed if it weren't for Charles.

I think it is wonderful that on a synth/music forum not one post says anything negative about his work.

Was Bach A child molester ?
Was Bach molested as a child??
~ I don't think there is anyway to accurately answer these 2 questions.

Hopefully as time goes on Charles Cohen will be remembered for his sounds & continue to influence young musicians in a positive way.

I saw Steve Moore w/Charles Cohen in Philadelphia, 13 April 2013.
Immediately after that show I went home & tried to imitate some of the sounds I heard..... No access to Buchla at that time:



I realize everybody's life experiences & outlooks are different.
But I do hope that when each of us are dead & gone,
our Pluses Outshine Our Negatives......
Guinness ftw!


Is that a graphic equaliser you have in your rack? I've always liked them, they're very good for aggressive live tone shaping, or for getting rid of troublesome frequencies that other filters can't.
slow_riot
@mousegarden

My view on things like now is, if you like the art, you must accept the person who made it. It's completely unfair to the person to disconnect their lives from their work, that because someone lived on a boundary of personality, or even crossed thresholds into others, that to satisfy your own conscience you refuse to see the connections between their lives and all they invested from them to make their art.
mousegarden
slow_riot wrote:
@mousegarden

My view on things like now is, if you like the art, you must accept the person who made it. It's completely unfair to the person to disconnect their lives from their work, that because someone lived on a boundary of personality, or even crossed thresholds into others, that to satisfy your own conscience you refuse to see the connections between their lives and all they invested from them to make their art.


The music Charles Cohen made was an expression of himself, his life. Music/art is a refelection of everything we do. And I agree, it is not right to seperate the person from the work.
The circumstances of Cohens later life are not up for discussion here IMO simply because we really do not know what happened in reality
Also the nature of what may have happened is such a hot potato that further mention of it will undoubtably lead to another locked thread, we all know that.
I'd prefer to remember Mr Cohen for his music and his thoughts about it, simple as that.
Jcsveth
@mousegarden - the unit in the video is not an equalizer but the awesome Electro-Harmonix BiFilter. Two LPFs, envelope follower, LFO, series/parallel switch, CVs, and more - excellent effect box.
slow_riot
mousegarden wrote:


The music Charles Cohen made was an expression of himself, his life. Music/art is a refelection of everything we do. And I agree, it is not right to seperate the person from the work.
The circumstances of Cohens later life are not up for discussion here IMO simply because we really do not know what happened in reality
Also the nature of what may have happened is such a hot potato that further mention of it will undoubtably lead to another locked thread, we all know that.
I'd prefer to remember Mr Cohen for his music and his thoughts about it, simple as that.


Absolutely agreed about the relationship of the art to the music. BTW my comments were not aimed at you, they were meant generally.

I've seen a lot of gentrification happening in the art world recently, where music forms that are generated by outsiders who have lived challenging lives on the fringes, are co-opted by people who do not seem to have the same struggles. A really prescient example was in experimental electronic / ambient, where a big event was recently promoted under the banner of "mental well being" and "community", simultaneously one of the biggest contributors to the form made a desperate post to his friends that he was addicted to crack and heroin and was genuinely scared he was not going to get out of the hole. A strange contradiction!

My own personal life circumstances make it hard for me to seperate the actions of an individual from their work, I have to make value judgements about people or circumstances to protect my own safety and sanity. It's no sign of disrespect to someone for me to question their moral stance, this includes my personal heroes as well as myself, because this process always looks towards understanding their actions within the context of their lives. Life often moves forward, not backward.
ispeakhopelandic
Charles was my close friend for 15 years.

The whole story, as told by those who accused him of misconduct is incomplete. His side of the story will probably never be told and if it is it'll be when his estate is ready to do it.

That's really all there is to say about it.
papz
Here's a clever quote of Diller in the Charles Cohen interview thread, that summarizes the situation nicely.

diller wrote:
No one deserves a pass but it very easy to judge people you have never met based on a few internet articles. Everyone in his circle was taken back by the charges because it was the first time anything like this had come up with him. Charles was great with kids. He had no history of this kind of behavior. Montgomery county gave him 5 months time served on a no contest plea deal for charges that would have brought 10-15 years in prison. If they had solid evidence to convict on the charges they would have never offered a plea deal and taken him to trial to convict. Montco is ruthless. The discovery showed the officer claimed he was 14 years old a single time in a string of dozens of text messages and pictures that were not responded to for 2 days from Charles. They confiscated his phone and his computer and searched his house and did not find any other contact with underage boys, no child porn, or anything of the sort. But no one wants to hear that or bring up that the police are targeting the LGBTQ community for sex crimes. The cop targeted a gay man in another county out of his jurisdiction and entrapped him while acting like a 14 year old gay boy for cryin out loud.
Panason
Ain't America great!
cycad73
ispeakhopelandic wrote:
Charles was my close friend for 15 years.

The whole story, as told by those who accused him of misconduct is incomplete. His side of the story will probably never be told and if it is it'll be when his estate is ready to do it.

That's really all there is to say about it.


Thank you.

We really do need to be open to those voices who were closest to the matter, and give everyone a turn to speak.

I do hope that this conversation continues to happen, painful as it may be. But the next steps cannot be the same people just recirculating the same old ideas.

Cohen is in so many ways a national treasure; it's just too important for him to be forgotten. But the whole life needs to be accounted for. It's the same with any artist.
MindMachine
I enjoyed his bleeps and bloops. The fact that he only used the Easel and a vintage EH 16 Second Delay was inspiring.

The initial announcement of criminal charges always seemed sketchy to bunk. I won't judge without a deep dive.

I had no idea that he had passed away. hmmm.....
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