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Emptyset's feedback loop techniques
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Author Emptyset's feedback loop techniques
mt3
rsntr wrote:
That Doom video is absolutely great. Any suggestions regarding specific modules that resemble this guy's approach in the modular realm - i.e. mangling sine waves into more complex stuff? Wavefolders are an obvious answer. Maybe some specific phasers or distortion units?


Bitcrushers with heavily driven inputs.
Coloration compressors of a wide spectrum of topologies.
Mastering distortion boxes such as Vulture Culture, HG-2, VSM-2, etc.
xthrasherx
I experimented around with this a little bit for a track last weekend with pretty good results. I wouldn’t say it was that close to the emptyset style sound, but it produced a pretty sweet destructive, harmonically rich kick sound which is exactly what the track needed. The compressors were absolutely key to the end result, allowing the interesting artifacts to pop up and breathe a bit. I can only imagine the fun with better units than I’m running hihi
mt3
Excellent ear practice is dialing in the perfect wet/dry on a bitcrusher.
blinosynth
When my new rytm mkll arrived my first attempt was to try to emulate emptyset.
Wow that compressor on rytm is really cool
Reverb and delay can help aswell... short delay act like flanger, add distortion and playing with decay and envelope ...U are there
Now I want all that outside the rytm.
Time to buy new hardware????
very frustrating I'm broke
ambientnoise
blinosynth wrote:
When my new rytm mkll arrived my first attempt was to try to emulate emptyset.
Wow that compressor on rytm is really cool
Reverb and delay can help aswell... short delay act like flanger, add distortion and playing with decay and envelope ...U are there
Now I want all that outside the rytm.
Time to buy new hardware????
very frustrating I'm broke


I don't have the RYTM MK2, but I do have the MK1. The bitcrusher on it is also great, along with an Analog Heat!
jensenluxvid
Inspiring thread. Had never heard of these guys. Thanks.
blinosynth
ambientnoise wrote:
blinosynth wrote:
When my new rytm mkll arrived my first attempt was to try to emulate emptyset.
Wow that compressor on rytm is really cool
Reverb and delay can help aswell... short delay act like flanger, add distortion and playing with decay and envelope ...U are there
Now I want all that outside the rytm.
Time to buy new hardware????
very frustrating I'm broke


I don't have the RYTM MK2, but I do have the MK1. The bitcrusher on it is also great, along with an Analog Heat!


Don't worry mkll is just different box with nice pad and some more nice direct function.
Sounds the same
Mostin77
This is a great thread.

I’ve seen the doom video and been a fan of Emptyset for quite a while now but have never used much feedback in my music other than tape delay feedback. I’ve been thinking of buying the befaco hexmix modules and I think they would be ideal for this sort of thing in a modular setup. Having aux sends in a modular system could be really fun I think.
Mostin77
So has anyone tried replicating this sort of thing in a DAW? I tried something similar last night in Maschine using some sub bass I’d made and some eq’ed field recordings (noise) running it through effects chains in guitar rig.

I got a bit stuck trying to feedback inside Maschine, which resulted in me getting sidetracked but ended up with some really interesting results.

I remember doing something simular to the bass and noise thing years ago using a reverse gating technique (I think) in Logic.
Panason
I have the Rytm and I find the compressor, bitcrusher and all the other built in FX as well as the filters are only worth using very sparingly. If you push them they sound like shit.
Some of the VST plugins you can get these days for these duties are phenomenal... but if you want feedback analog gear is the only option.
Mostin77
Panason wrote:
Some of the VST plugins you can get these days for these duties are phenomenal... but if you want feedback analog gear is the only option.


I have a decent amount of vst plugins that would cover this and a soundcraft mixer I could use for feedback duties. What would be the best way to feedback into the mixer thinking about feedback routing kinda fry’s my brain for some reason. I’m guessing the aux sends would be the obvious way here?

Is there any chance of wrecking anything on the mixer by using feedback? Dead Banana
mt3
Mostin77
mt3 wrote:


That’s pretty much the way I thought about setting it up. Seems to work ok but need to spend a bit more time with it I think
PhineasFreak
i'm gonna try this with a distortion insert on a loopback channel on my interface - i dont have a pedal - hopefully it should work...

[edit:]

just tried it with a software distortion and my Korg nanoKONTROL - worked like a charm!
Mostin77
PhineasFreak wrote:
i'm gonna try this with a distortion insert on a loopback channel on my interface - i dont have a pedal - hopefully it should work...

[edit:]

just tried it with a software distortion and my Korg nanoKONTROL - worked like a charm!


Just out of interest what software distortion did you use?

It seems the Emptyset stuff relies quite heavy on compression. Has anyone had much luck with using stacks of software compressors? I have a few of the Native instruments Classic compressors but I’ve never really abused them that much so this sort of thing again is somewhat out of my usual territory.
If anyone would like to describe that kind of software setting and how one might go about replicating this sort of thing in software that’d be pretty handy.
mt3
Mostin77 wrote:
PhineasFreak wrote:
i'm gonna try this with a distortion insert on a loopback channel on my interface - i dont have a pedal - hopefully it should work...

[edit:]

just tried it with a software distortion and my Korg nanoKONTROL - worked like a charm!


Just out of interest what software distortion did you use?

It seems the Emptyset stuff relies quite heavy on compression. Has anyone had much luck with using stacks of software compressors? I have a few of the Native instruments Classic compressors but I’ve never really abused them that much so this sort of thing again is somewhat out of my usual territory.
If anyone would like to describe that kind of software setting and how one might go about replicating this sort of thing in software that’d be pretty handy.


The best starting point would be what I mentioned above:
"Mastering distortion boxes" such as Vulture Culture, HG-2, VSM-2, etc.
Start with a sin wave tuned to F0.
Adjust to taste.
ambientnoise
mt3 wrote:


This is a neat trick, just did this with my Analog Heat and Ableton, got the connections and setup correct. It worked but I didn’t get much out of it? I’m going to have to explore more I guess.
PhineasFreak
mt3 wrote:
Mostin77 wrote:
PhineasFreak wrote:
i'm gonna try this with a distortion insert on a loopback channel on my interface - i dont have a pedal - hopefully it should work...

[edit:]

just tried it with a software distortion and my Korg nanoKONTROL - worked like a charm!


Just out of interest what software distortion did you use?

It seems the Emptyset stuff relies quite heavy on compression. Has anyone had much luck with using stacks of software compressors? I have a few of the Native instruments Classic compressors but I’ve never really abused them that much so this sort of thing again is somewhat out of my usual territory.
If anyone would like to describe that kind of software setting and how one might go about replicating this sort of thing in software that’d be pretty handy.


The best starting point would be what I mentioned above:
"Mastering distortion boxes" such as Vulture Culture, HG-2, VSM-2, etc.
Start with a sin wave tuned to F0.
Adjust to taste.


having started from the template ableton set provided by the makr of theyou tube clip i just tried a few abltone plugs -ended up with a mix of tube distortion andcabinet emulaor along with the compression present in the template

in also got some lovely sounds using abletons saturator...
Mostin77
PhineasFreak wrote:
mt3 wrote:
Mostin77 wrote:
PhineasFreak wrote:
i'm gonna try this with a distortion insert on a loopback channel on my interface - i dont have a pedal - hopefully it should work...

[edit:]

just tried it with a software distortion and my Korg nanoKONTROL - worked like a charm!


Just out of interest what software distortion did you use?

It seems the Emptyset stuff relies quite heavy on compression. Has anyone had much luck with using stacks of software compressors? I have a few of the Native instruments Classic compressors but I’ve never really abused them that much so this sort of thing again is somewhat out of my usual territory.
If anyone would like to describe that kind of software setting and how one might go about replicating this sort of thing in software that’d be pretty handy.


The best starting point would be what I mentioned above:
"Mastering distortion boxes" such as Vulture Culture, HG-2, VSM-2, etc.
Start with a sin wave tuned to F0.
Adjust to taste.


having started from the template ableton set provided by the makr of theyou tube clip i just tried a few abltone plugs -ended up with a mix of tube distortion andcabinet emulaor along with the compression present in the template

in also got some lovely sounds using abletons saturator...


I got some really interesting stuff from doing simular with N.I Driver plugin combined with the amp and cab modelling, some reverb and more distortion in guitar rig quite handy.
I guess I should try stacking a load of compressors next and sidechaining them with some noise like in the doom video.
mt3
Mostin77 wrote:
PhineasFreak wrote:
mt3 wrote:
Mostin77 wrote:
PhineasFreak wrote:
i'm gonna try this with a distortion insert on a loopback channel on my interface - i dont have a pedal - hopefully it should work...

[edit:]

just tried it with a software distortion and my Korg nanoKONTROL - worked like a charm!


Just out of interest what software distortion did you use?

It seems the Emptyset stuff relies quite heavy on compression. Has anyone had much luck with using stacks of software compressors? I have a few of the Native instruments Classic compressors but I’ve never really abused them that much so this sort of thing again is somewhat out of my usual territory.
If anyone would like to describe that kind of software setting and how one might go about replicating this sort of thing in software that’d be pretty handy.


The best starting point would be what I mentioned above:
"Mastering distortion boxes" such as Vulture Culture, HG-2, VSM-2, etc.
Start with a sin wave tuned to F0.
Adjust to taste.


having started from the template ableton set provided by the makr of theyou tube clip i just tried a few abltone plugs -ended up with a mix of tube distortion andcabinet emulaor along with the compression present in the template

in also got some lovely sounds using abletons saturator...


I got some really interesting stuff from doing simular with N.I Driver plugin combined with the amp and cab modelling, some reverb and more distortion in guitar rig quite handy.
I guess I should try stacking a load of compressors next and sidechaining them with some noise like in the doom video.


Ah, for some reason didn't realize you were referring to the DAW feedback video.
Mostin77
Quote:
Ah, for some reason didn't realize you were referring to the DAW feedback video


My questions in posts before the video were also relating to trying to achieve a similar result but using software.

I do intend on getting some hardware distortion and compressors in the near future, but for the moment I’m interested in trying something out using software distortion and compression and sending that to my hardware mixer for feedback.

Maybe I should make it a bit clearer what I have to work with.

I have a small basic modular set up, including sinewave osc, vca’s, envelop, filters, reverb and delay, basic stuff. I have a big muff bass fuzz pedal. A 16 channnel mixer. A 18i20 audio interface and Logic or Maschine along with various plugin packs which have the software effects covered.

So I so I could simply copy what’s shown in that video by using Maschine as my midi controller or just do it all inside Maschine using Maschines aux channels. I can get my head around that just about!

What I would like to do though is setup a effects chain of distortion in my daw and send that to my hardware mixer (I guess to the aux sends) that way I could use my modular as a sound source and have that on a separate channel on the mixer, I could probably use the muff pedal as a channnel insert on that channel too. (Now this is where I start losing track of my thoughts) So I guess I set up another channel for the white noise, I can either take this from the modular or send it from the daw to a separate channel on the mixer. Then I need to set up a compression stack in software and sidechain that from the sine to the noise. I think this is the bit I’m stuck on. So far I have one channel of sinewave and one channel of white noise, along with one aux send with distortion that I can send to sinewave channel and feed it back on itself. Do I just set up another aux channel for the compressors and send the sidechain to the sinewaves to the noise?

Sorry for the huge essay but I felt I needed to write it out so I could understand what I’m trying to do. Hybrid systems really confuse me for some reason. very frustrating seriously, i just don't get it very frustrating
suboptimal
I wonder if piping the audio into the real world (mic up a monitor speaker) and back into the computer would be a useful technique for software approaches. It would be true to the Emptyset approach, anyway.
Mostin77
suboptimal wrote:
I wonder if piping the audio into the real world (mic up a monitor speaker) and back into the computer would be a useful technique for software approaches. It would be true to the Emptyset approach, anyway.


That’s a good plan I’d forgotten about that. I’ve got a shitty guitar amp which would work well for that
ambientnoise
Wooooo I did it guys! I just made a real nice loop that sounds almost exactly like Emptyset using just Elektron Octatrack and Analog Heat and a little bit of MS-20 mini. I'm set! grin
jbuonacc
did this on the Nord G2 back in 2006:

[s]https://soundcloud.com/jbuonacc/cystic-draft[/s]

a slower version:

[s]https://soundcloud.com/jbuonacc/cystic-dub[/s]

all this is happening "inside" the G2, can't recall exactly what i did to get it to feedback like that. don't have anything else up, but a lot of the later stuff i did with it used this quite a bit.


[EDIT]...just added this, a live set from 2008 (beats are pretty sparse). all coming straight from the Nord, recorded to tape with a couple mics in the venue:

[s]https://soundcloud.com/jbuonacc/live060708[/s]
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