MUFF WIGGLER Forum Index
 FAQ & Terms of UseFAQ & Terms Of Use   Wiggler RadioMW Radio   Muff Wiggler TwitterTwitter   Support the site @ PatreonPatreon 
 SearchSearch   RegisterSign up   Log inLog in 
WIGGLING 'LITE' IN GUEST MODE

Sampling techniques for minimal house - sync/cohesion issues
MUFF WIGGLER Forum Index -> Production Techniques  
Author Sampling techniques for minimal house - sync/cohesion issues
deepr
Hi guys smile My topic relates to the use of samples in minimal house and techno.

I've been following artists like Farben, Akufen, Cabanne etc for a long time and it always amazes me the way they can manipulte micro samples in order to creat a sense of groove, swing and even melodiy at times.

If you take any track from lets say Akufen you can feel straight away that every single sample he uses seem to fit the overall mood of the track. The samples also seem to "talk" and "respond" to each other rythms .. and that is what intrigues me. I've been trying to replicate this micro sampling technique using Ableton's Drum Rack but I keep struggling to get a sense of cohesion between the samples... and I also find it very difficult to tempo sync everything.

So is there anyone here who is on the same vibe who would like to share their techniques and thoughts on the matter? Any tutorial, special plugin, hardware perhaps? There must be some secret out there smile

I just want to make it clear that by no any means I am trying to copy anybody's sound. All I wish is to master the technique in order to improve and twist it to my liking and ideas.

Cheers!

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/1AQisPEnEBc" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
dubonaire
I don't think there is anything wrong with trying to emulate these producers they make wonderful music.

So I think there are three key elements that stand out. It sounds to me that they select or tune their samples so that they are in key. The second thing is that the envelopes help provide the groove (they may design the shuffle that way rather than using a global setting). So a sample may swell up to a click or swoop down to a kick, just as two random examples. The third is their music is often heavily syncopated eg using suspension and off beat syncopation, and there is often a lot of space. This is enhanced by using samples of different lengths, and placing the peak part of the sample where you want the beat, not necessarily the start of the sample.

Finally - I think this kind of music takes of lot of time and patience by editing individual notes on a piano roll to create.
Funky40
deepr wrote:

If you take any track from lets say Akufen you can feel straight away that every single sample he uses seem to fit the overall mood of the track. The samples also seem to "talk" and "respond" to each other rythms .. and that is what intrigues me.

you probably should post some specific examples with time stamps.

i listened yesterday late the first time to Akufen, a album on YT.
The sample works in there have been quite different over the time of the album.
The thematic itself consists IMO of many many different aspects.

One aspect for "that kind of music" is to just stitch the samples together to a piece of music. The "composition" aspect.
Seemed to me that in Akufens work, at least in that particular album, the composition is the main aspect, vs. creative work "within" the sample.
He just works with small snippets. could even be that these just come from some sampl lybrary CD.
Underlying atmospheric noises derived by your samples with delays etc. might play a good role here in perceiving it as "glued together".


while i don´t make any tracks at all ,have i spent a fair amount of time and work experimenting myself with samples and the creative ways to get "music" out of them, but personally i´m totally NOT into the compositoric aspect of "stitching samples snippets together"
this whole field is HUGE !! even if you keep out FX......


post some specific tracks with relevant timemarks
Raven_Martin
I think Dubonaire makes some really good suggestions. It's also worth mentioning that Akufen in particular is an absolute master of sampling and I think having a very wide pallet of samples to choose from initially is probably the best way to start.

I don't have any particular tips to add myself I'm afraid, just chiming in that I agree Akufen is brill!

I've always wondered exactly what special sauce Pepe Braddock adds to get his sample collages itching and grooving along in the way they do. Akufen is very similar and I'm in awe of it. Really great music.
deepr
Hi guys, thanks for all the answers so far!

@Dubonaire gave us really good hints. Surely I will dive deep into the syncopated suspension theories... that may help a lot smile

@Funky40, please listen to the tracks below so you can have a better idea of what I talk about. Pay attention to how Gramm make a more subtle use of micro sampling for glitchy, background sounds, while Akufen builds his whole track around it. Cabanne seems to sit in between the two.

Gramm (Ferben) - Nugroove
https://youtu.be/4kHEu50uq3w

Cabanne - Dirtycologiquement
https://youtu.be/2unt_hY2uG4

Akufen - Seizure Salad
https://youtu.be/1AQisPEnEBc


Since the beginning I've been trying to use short decay samples in my productions. However I struggle to get a balance: too short and they will sound like a transient rich, generic perc; too long and they get lost in the groove. it is not an easy task at all, even when I use only a few elements.
dubonaire
I went down the rabbit hole of minimal glitchy click house in the early 2000s and used to DJ it regularly which was challenging because it is often very syncopated.

Another very funky artist from the period to check out is Mossa



Also check out [a]pendics.shuffle, Kit Clayton, Safety Scissors, Ark, Sutekh, Thomas Brinkmann from that period.

Everything from that period on Context, Contexterrior, Cyanosure, Circus Company, Mo's Ferry, Floppy Funk, Morris Audio, Karat, Telegraph, Perlon, Karloff (especially dB - Gdansk EP), mille plateaux clicks and cuts series.

I'm sure I've forgotten a lot. Of course you probably already know these artists and labels.
Funky40
deepr wrote:

@Funky40, please listen to the tracks below so you can have a better idea of what I talk about. Pay attention to how Gramm make a more subtle use of micro sampling for glitchy, background sounds, while Akufen builds his whole track around it. Cabanne seems to sit in between the two.

Gramm (Ferben) - Nugroove
https://youtu.be/4kHEu50uq3w

Cabanne - Dirtycologiquement
https://youtu.be/2unt_hY2uG4

Akufen - Seizure Salad
https://youtu.be/1AQisPEnEBc

nice tracks !

first:
Q: What do i have to do to become a Concert Pianist ?
A: practice !
Q: how long will it take ?
A: Years
thats how i see it

How i perceive the Akufen track, would i say its the fastest approach to get the feel for that kind of sample work to jam the "creative samples" on a thing like the MPC, Machine, Push.
A main part is how the samples are cut. Lenght, but also start point.
But, good thing is to load samples into the sampler, abletons Drumrack for example ( each sample slot beeing a full simpler instance btw. ) which are NOT cut as wished.
Just set the start point accordingly, and end point, then JAM ! ( vs. destructive cuts upfront)
then adjust the played sample lenght wile jamming with pads.
thats in my opinion the fastest approach ( and the only one i have experience with) to get your sample set down/right.
Adjust things while you *jam* with the samples.

Another good thing, often useful or even a main part of the technique, is to have the samples set as a mute group.
If you play a sample is it muting the previous one. Have also empty pads on the MPC etc. to get the option to determine the played gate lenght by a second hand.
makes a difference vs. just programming gate lenght by how long you press the pad !

run a basic drumgroove, jam to it.
work your way up this way to create *your* sample set that works.
replace samples, tune pitch and speed right.
one thing is that strange start/end points can work often pleasantly well.
record as much of your jams as possible. the recording process needs to be VERY straight forward. one button press.
i´ve used to work with two MPC1Ks for exactly this reason.
Akufens track/work might have been made in the DAW by programming. i dunno.
But it is the jamming that teaches you lots of feel for the whole and will lead to a different set of samples. Different settings vs. when working straight only by plan.
thats what i can input here.

Q: and where do i get the funk from ?
A: haha...........golden moments ?


on the gramm track i hear lots of tones/samples that sound like been shaped by envelopes.
most of them seem just to be reverse played samples. can´t comment more.
its Art !


the Cabanne track is very cool ! i see here a main element the frequenzy (non-) distribution.
and i´d bet there have been lots of compression in there to get the sound right.

seems these poeple are all masters:
see my initial Query wink


personally i experimented around quite alots with samples over the course of several years, but i never even started to try to do a track........thats where i´m at, haha.
Funky40
the one Artist i stumbled across years ago, Spoonbill.
one of the Masters


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j5ktPjDVSU4
Navs
To echo some of what has been said, the point about Akufen is that he has the funk. Seriously, the samples used are of secondary nature - you've got to feel the funk first. grin

Then, his arrangements are great. There is push and pull and a conversation between the elements. And there is space, so that when he drops the kick, it just slots in naturally. This is what I was referring to in another thread about kick drums.

On the technical side, Funky40 makes an import point: just chuck your samples into a sampler and do not cut them cleanly ("which are NOT cut as wished. "). Part of the funk in these sorts of tracks is the timing inherent in the recorded material, the fact that it is not lined up to the grid or MPC-quantized afterwards.

Modulars are great for this. Just record some stuff with free-running LFOs as clocks and experiment. Use pitch adjustments to get the timing to fit, rather than timestretch, etc. For example ...

[s]http://soundcloud.com/navs/zo-shapes[/s]

edit: techie note: I remember reading interviews in which he said My Way was made in a shack in the woods with a radio for sample fodder and a laptop running Propellerhead Reason SlayerBadger!
Navs
Another way of doing this is to not use a sampler, just your DAW's timeline. This method really allows you to experiment as you're just shifting audio regions:



Just a silly example:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/06spr3o6s0o21gd/concr%C3%A8te-house.mp3?dl=0
Raven_Martin
dubonaire wrote:



Everything from that period on Context, Contexterrior, Cyanosure, Circus Company, Mo's Ferry, Floppy Funk, Morris Audio, Karat, Telegraph, Perlon, Karloff (especially dB - Gdansk EP), mille plateaux clicks and cuts series.

I'm sure I've forgotten a lot. Of course you probably already know these artists and labels.


Perlon is life! w00t
subbasshead
"your DAW's timeline"

not exactly related but somewhere I saw (& thought I saved but cant find it) a screenshot of a glitchy Telfon TelAviv song, and was surprised to see it was all audio tracks with a lot of tiny audio clips, cut & edited on timeline... No doubt some came from printing sequences, but....

Not sure about other DAWS but in ProTools there is a keyboard shortcut to move the audio within an edited region, for example say you had edited a 3 minute recording of radio down to a short fragment that started at beat 1 and ended at beat 3. Without changing the start & end positions, you can move/offset through the source material - so start & end sync stays the same, but the content changes... (on OSX it is CNTRL + or CNTRL - and the content moves by the nudge amount - it is an incredibly handy function)
slumberjack
[s]https://soundcloud.com/unalikemusic/f-original-mix[/s]

[s]https://soundcloud.com/unalikemusic/m-original-mix[/s]


there you go, two micro-esque tracks by me. the cut-up vocals are on a yamaha su200, sequenced x0x style (via cirklon, but thats even possible all within ableton). as bespoken above: only roughly cut into longer phrases, not even synced, did just cut away the clicks tbh. the shuffle groove comes with it. it's actually a very playful thing to do and very jam-able. i love it...or...i like to wiggle:

[s]https://soundcloud.com/aku-en/akufen-i-love-to-wiggle[/s]

in terms of wiggling (if you do eurocrack) > triggers into a vca > source material: audio stream of vocals > outcome: micro house > if you wanna go oldschool akufen try out some radio recording or live sample radio stream trough a vca.

my favs are akufen on revolver 'mary jane kelly' ep, stephen beaupre on scape 'macro house', whole microcosm recording incl. macrofun series, as mentioned dB, early Frivolous, crackhouse, lot's of mutek records (check all the 12" for a bigger picture). and then there is this label which is quite unknown but huge:
background records from andy vaz. you'll find also on telegraph from paris a few nice tunes, tom ellis from england is also still active. jeff milligan a super dude and dj btw. guillaumne coutu dumonts until around 2008. you'll find e few gems on the whole morris/audio catalogue for sure.

there are many ways to achieve what you're after. at least from my ears, akufen seems to be like a surgeon (btw. the artist surgeon was quite micro back in the days...) when it comes to compositions. but maybe he's just a master in rough'n rugged mpc play.

actually sometimes i just like to play on the sampler's pads, sometimes i even do this on stage...but this is possible with every midi pads.

i got my hung up on micro house since late 2000's, while the best days already passed away, but i'm still on it. lately i bought this french record labelcode is SKPN004 called 'RAIN TEXT 1', it's quiet new a fresh take and a younger edge on micro.

if you're into farben which is jan jelinek be sure to check out his album 'tierbetrachtungen', it's a favourite of alot of people among my sourroundings.

but keeps in mind: a lot uniqueness, groove, timbre and funk comes from hardware samples by themself. each one got a different flavour, bitrate and frequency can make a huge imprint. also filter and pitch behaviour is something to be comfortable with, for me i could stand the boss sp-303 sampler.
dubonaire
slumberjack wrote:
my favs are akufen on revolver 'mary jane kelly' ep, stephen beaupre on scape 'macro house', whole microcosm recording incl. macrofun series, as mentioned dB, early Frivolous, crackhouse, lot's of mutek records (check all the 12" for a bigger picture). and then there is this label which is quite unknown but huge:
background records from andy vaz. you'll find also on telegraph from paris a few nice tunes, tom ellis from england is also still active. jeff milligan a super dude and dj btw. guillaumne coutu dumonts until around 2008. you'll find e few gems on the whole morris/audio catalogue for sure.

there are many ways to achieve what you're after. at least from my ears, akufen seems to be like a surgeon (btw. the artist surgeon was quite micro back in the days...) when it comes to compositions. but maybe he's just a master in rough'n rugged mpc play.

actually sometimes i just like to play on the sampler's pads, sometimes i even do this on stage...but this is possible with every midi pads.

i got my hung up on micro house since late 2000's, while the best days already passed away, but i'm still on it. lately i bought this french record labelcode is SKPN004 called 'RAIN TEXT 1', it's quiet new a fresh take and a younger edge on micro.

if you're into farben which is jan jelinek be sure to check out his album 'tierbetrachtungen', it's a favourite of alot of people among my sourroundings.

but keeps in mind: a lot uniqueness, groove, timbre and funk comes from hardware samples by themself. each one got a different flavour, bitrate and frequency can make a huge imprint. also filter and pitch behaviour is something to be comfortable with, for me i could stand the boss sp-303 sampler.


Nice tunes.

The Stephen Beaupre stuff was awesome. you name a few labels I forgot to mention. I have all the Morris/Audio releases from that period including the Citysport sublabel. There were some awesome tunes on background, my favourite being Akufen's Adad under the alias Nefuka, although I never thought much of Andy Vaz.

I still like to pull these records out. It got a bit saturated and tired of course but there are still some really funky releases that will still get floors moving.

Thanks for the Rain Text tip. That's the kind of stuff you may have heard on Contexterrior and I also hear a bit of Thomas Brinkmann.
slumberjack
dubonaire wrote:

Nice tunes.

The Stephen Beaupre stuff was awesome. you name a few labels I forgot to mention. I have all the Morris/Audio releases from that period including the Citysport sublabel. There were some awesome tunes on background, my favourite being Akufen's Adad under the alias Nefuka, although I never thought much of Andy Vaz.

I still like to pull these records out. It got a bit saturated and tired of course but there are still some really funky releases that will still get floors moving.

Thanks for the Rain Text tip. That's the kind of stuff you may have heard on Contexterrior and I also hear a bit of Thomas Brinkmann.


cheers man, you're welcome!

for micro the focus of morris/audio there was actually the sublabel floppy funk. an there this shaka dude pops up. his eps from 2000 - 2008 are pure gold. the he turned into oldschool and disco house. very successful btw but i always tell him that his micro period inspired me much more...although he turned out to be a very close friend. on of the best dj i ever heard.

about andy vaz there are going rumours around all the time. i don't care, such a huge amount of music he put on all the label he did (akufen's stuff as anna kaufen is probably the best on andy label althougt the adad ep is still always near my bag). early stuff on yore too, man you find so much artis on his rooster that gone mad afterwards, that andy really deserve more credit than he gets. i rarely play him but his ep on telegraph is a grow-up heavy piece of acid funk, but be careful, you might empty the floor with a undedicated crowd.

i worked with jay haze recently but the sadly the contact disrupted (he live for a couple of months with me). i did a miss fitz / nina simone reference then, but it's not ready to show yet. be sure the check out the peter f. spiess stuff. and his own on contexterrior on the first numbers.

also onitor houses a few very nice cuts and of course all the sweedish guys who seems to disapear. bulgur brothers ftw!

and not to forget about pheek and archipel too.

the more contemporary:

there is a (young) dj from zurich, his name is barbir, his label is calles les points, run with a few friends, he's the one dedecated the most to it.
from there you'll find a whole lot of english artists on discogs running labels with stuff from the new generation if you don't already know them.

me:

in the ITB mixing thread i read this comments '...never underestimate the creative power of naivity...' or something like that. i had no clue about anything, just a sm58, a korg microcontrol and a cracked live 6. sadly this is not even near being mixed properly or even mastered - and i lost the drive with all the files (well i could find two songs from that period two years ago, reworking them now). my goal then was more on the percussive side aka ezekiel honig and someone else stuff. sadly my friends own imprint (corner records) which would liked to put out some of them tracks but did stopped after their second 12" (breandan davey - renewal > check it out!).

[s]https://soundcloud.com/input-selector/is-080-slumberjack-live[/s]
slumberjack
ahh yeah and how one could forget this one:

Dimbiman - Köppchen (Herberts D-D-D-Dazzle Dub)
dubonaire
slumberjack wrote:
dubonaire wrote:

Nice tunes.

The Stephen Beaupre stuff was awesome. you name a few labels I forgot to mention. I have all the Morris/Audio releases from that period including the Citysport sublabel. There were some awesome tunes on background, my favourite being Akufen's Adad under the alias Nefuka, although I never thought much of Andy Vaz.

I still like to pull these records out. It got a bit saturated and tired of course but there are still some really funky releases that will still get floors moving.

Thanks for the Rain Text tip. That's the kind of stuff you may have heard on Contexterrior and I also hear a bit of Thomas Brinkmann.


cheers man, you're welcome!

for micro the focus of morris/audio there was actually the sublabel floppy funk. an there this shaka dude pops up. his eps from 2000 - 2008 are pure gold. the he turned into oldschool and disco house. very successful btw but i always tell him that his micro period inspired me much more...although he turned out to be a very close friend. on of the best dj i ever heard.

about andy vaz there are going rumours around all the time. i don't care, such a huge amount of music he put on all the label he did (akufen's stuff as anna kaufen is probably the best on andy label althougt the adad ep is still always near my bag). early stuff on yore too, man you find so much artis on his rooster that gone mad afterwards, that andy really deserve more credit than he gets. i rarely play him but his ep on telegraph is a grow-up heavy piece of acid funk, but be careful, you might empty the floor with a undedicated crowd.

i worked with jay haze recently but the sadly the contact disrupted (he live for a couple of months with me). i did a miss fitz / nina simone reference then, but it's not ready to show yet. be sure the check out the peter f. spiess stuff. and his own on contexterrior on the first numbers.

also onitor houses a few very nice cuts and of course all the sweedish guys who seems to disapear. bulgur brothers ftw!

and not to forget about pheek and archipel too.

the more contemporary:

there is a (young) dj from zurich, his name is barbir, his label is calles les points, run with a few friends, he's the one dedecated the most to it.
from there you'll find a whole lot of english artists on discogs running labels with stuff from the new generation if you don't already know them.

me:

in the ITB mixing thread i read this comments '...never underestimate the creative power of naivity...' or something like that. i had no clue about anything, just a sm58, a korg microcontrol and a cracked live 6. sadly this is not even near being mixed properly or even mastered - and i lost the drive with all the files (well i could find two songs from that period two years ago, reworking them now). my goal then was more on the percussive side aka ezekiel honig and someone else stuff. sadly my friends own imprint (corner records) which would liked to put out some of them tracks but did stopped after their second 12" (breandan davey - renewal > check it out!).

[s]https://soundcloud.com/input-selector/is-080-slumberjack-live[/s]


Yeah I have quite a few floppy funk releases. I have a four metre wall of vinyl and half of it is this stuff.

Andy Vaz - I had a really bad experience supporting him on a tour but I'll leave it at that. Actually on that tour I played back to back with Robert Henke which was a bit of a highlight.

Jay Haze - seriously rate that guy. Yes I also have several Peter F Speiss releases including Contexterrior white labels. In fact I feel like digging up some and playing it.

I think Pheek mainly does mastering now right? Like Twerk, another favourite. I'll check out your recommendations. Oh yeah I know that Breandon Davey track.
slumberjack
dubonaire wrote:
Yeah I have quite a few floppy funk releases. I have a four metre wall of vinyl and half of it is this stuff.

Oh yeah I know that Breandon Davey track.


do you got some stuff out? mixxes? tracks? didn't find anything on the first hit.

breandan is my mastering engineer now. he runs a studio in basel and got a synth band: 5 years older

btw. was a classmate in school with jeff milligan and around the same year as richy hawtin...it seems he didn't had friends because he sorta a know-it-all and show off bwoi...who could have thought of such thing... wink

Jay Haze - I had a really bad experience supporting him but I'll leave it at that. wink
slumberjack
faulty post edited.

i wanted to ask dubionare for where to find work of him actually.
scozbor
Not time stretching your samples to fit the track's BPM is a great way of finding funk... so the sample is triggered in time, but it's out of sync.
gruebleengourd
Raven_Martin wrote:
I think Dubonaire makes some really good suggestions. It's also worth mentioning that Akufen in particular is an absolute master of sampling and I think having a very wide pallet of samples to choose from initially is probably the best way to start. .


I think there is a lot more chance elements in this than being suggested here. Certainly this was at the height of 'microsound' minutae editing style, but spinning the tuner on a radio, auto chopping it and applying gates and compressors in a thoughtful manner will get you similar results.
Raven_Martin
gruebleengourd wrote:
Raven_Martin wrote:
I think Dubonaire makes some really good suggestions. It's also worth mentioning that Akufen in particular is an absolute master of sampling and I think having a very wide pallet of samples to choose from initially is probably the best way to start. .


I think there is a lot more chance elements in this than being suggested here. Certainly this was at the height of 'microsound' minutae editing style, but spinning the tuner on a radio, auto chopping it and applying gates and compressors in a thoughtful manner will get you similar results.


Yeah I do know what you mean; I'm always unusually impressed at things like randomly scrubbing drum or vocal samples on something like a RYTM or octatrack or similar. The human ear and brain is a sucker for unexpected treats contained within some sort of rhythmic structure.

I guess it's less about the individual sounds themselves and more about the weird variation created by using samples with different recording features, such as wildly different reverbs or EQ settings.
MUFF WIGGLER Forum Index -> Production Techniques  
Page 1 of 1
Powered by phpBB © phpBB Group