MUFF WIGGLER Forum Index
 FAQ & Terms of UseFAQ & Terms Of Use   Wiggler RadioMW Radio   Muff Wiggler TwitterTwitter   Support the site @ PatreonPatreon 
 SearchSearch   RegisterSign up   Log inLog in 
WIGGLING 'LITE' IN GUEST MODE

5U Polyphonic Patch Experiments (2018)
MUFF WIGGLER Forum Index -> 5U Format Modules Goto page 1, 2, 3  Next [all]
Author 5U Polyphonic Patch Experiments (2018)
JohnLRice
Like the similarly named "Sequencer Experiments" thread I started I thought it might be fun if everyone used this thread to post audio and video clips of tests and demos of polyphonic modular synth patches? Not completed pieces, just things that sound or look interesting with at least two independent voices.

**********************************************



There are four identical voices each using the following modules:
Synth Tech MOTM-300 VCO (pulse wave out)
Synth Tech MOTM-800 EG (for VCA modulation)
Synth Tech MOTM-190 dual VCA (1/2)
Moon Modular 517 dual VCF (1/2)
Moon Modular 511D ADSR (1/2) (for VCF modulation)
Synth Tech MOTM-380 quad LFO (1/4) for VCO PWM

The 4 voices are controlled via a Roland A-88 MIDI keyboard through a Synth Tech MOTM-650 quad MIDI to CV converter. The Moon 517 VCFs are additionally modulated by 4 outputs of a Krisp1 OCTO LFO which is itself modulated by a MOTM-320 LFO.

The "flutter" effect is created by switching the Moon 511D EGs to Gated Retrigger mode so that when a key is held down the EG that modulates the VCF channel for the associated voice goes into loop mode. Three of the voices loop at one rate and the fourth 'lead' voice is set to loop at a faster rate.

Effects used are Strymon BigSky and Timeline pedals, Roland RSP-550 multi effects rack and a touch of a Sony reverb plugin.
unrecordings
Ah I think you need to tick the enable uploads thingy in the thread options
(though it seems you can do it if reply to the thread then go back and edit it)

I might have re-recorded mine in an hour or so - something with a ring mod theme...

...But here's the first version

Roland M184 keyboard powering 4x MOTM300 VCOs tuned in unison. Sine outputs to two passive ring mods, the triangle outputs of the carrier VCOs to a pair of passive LPGs which are mixed and put through a stereo BTDR3 reverb. MOTM320R LFO controls the panning on the ring mods and the frequency on the LPGs. Ruff and ready, but it's a start
EPTC
Nice, John! I'm curious, how do you make a polyphonic voice patch with 5U? I have polyphonic systems (OB6) but don't know how it would work for modules? Is it done with switches?

Basically if you're pressing one note and then a second note, how does one patch things to trigger a second oscillator on that second note to sound duophonic?

(Sure there's a thread elsewhere, just being conversational to your cool post)
unrecordings
EPTC wrote:
Nice, John! I'm curious, how do you make a polyphonic voice patch with 5U? I have polyphonic systems (OB6) but don't know how it would work for modules? Is it done with switches?


You basically start by patching a simple voice, but 3 or 4 times

I was using the Roland M184 keyboard. It's four note polyphonic, so that means it has four pitch CV outputs and four gate outputs. For a basic patch therefore you need four VCOs, four VCAs, four envelopes, four filters (or mix everything into one filter)
robotmakers
Here are two examples of 4 voice polyphonic (partly Moog) modular, each with multiple VCOs, filters, egs for each voice . . .

Here, the four voices are quite different, but they're all played live via keyboard in a baroque style with some ensuing madness:
https://www.muffwiggler.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=137447&highlight=

This is an example where heterogeneous voices can be made to sound the same, again played live via keyboard:
https://www.muffwiggler.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=113211&highlight=

Cheers,
Roger
JohnLRice
unrecordings wrote:
Ah I think you need to tick the enable uploads thingy in the thread options
(though it seems you can do it if reply to the thread then go back and edit it)

I might have re-recorded mine in an hour or so - something with a ring mod theme...

...But here's the first version

Roland M184 keyboard powering 4x MOTM300 VCOs tuned in unison. Sine outputs to two passive ring mods, the triangle outputs of the carrier VCOs to a pair of passive LPGs which are mixed and put through a stereo BTDR3 reverb. MOTM320R LFO controls the panning on the ring mods and the frequency on the LPGs. Ruff and ready, but it's a start
Cool one! Impressively steady keyboard playing, I thought it was sequenced at first until I read your description! thumbs up
unrecordings
JohnLRice wrote:
Cool one! Impressively steady keyboard playing, I thought it was sequenced at first until I read your description! thumbs up


The M184 has built in arpeggiator... applause
JohnLRice
EPTC wrote:
Nice, John! I'm curious, how do you make a polyphonic voice patch with 5U? I have polyphonic systems (OB6) but don't know how it would work for modules? Is it done with switches?

Basically if you're pressing one note and then a second note, how does one patch things to trigger a second oscillator on that second note to sound duophonic?

(Sure there's a thread elsewhere, just being conversational to your cool post)
Thanks! cool
Yes, it's done pretty much just like unrecordings explained. thumbs up I set up four identical voices and then I'm playing them from a standard MIDI keyboard through a polyphonic MIDI to CV converter.

In my case I'm using the long discontinued Synth Tech MOTM-650 http://synthtech.com/motm/650/ It has several different voice allocation modes you can read about in the user manual: 1 voice, two 2 voice, or one 4 voice groups and configured as Poly 1, Poly 1 Steal, Poly 2, Poly 2 Steal, Unison, Solo Unison, Solo, Solo Rotate:
JohnLRice
robotmakers wrote:
Here are two examples of 4 voice polyphonic (partly Moog) modular, each with multiple VCOs, filters, egs for each voice . . .

Here, the four voices are quite different, but they're all played live via keyboard in a baroque style with some ensuing madness:
https://www.muffwiggler.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=137447&highlight=

This is an example where heterogeneous voices can be made to sound the same, again played live via keyboard:
https://www.muffwiggler.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=113211&highlight=

Cheers,
Roger
Thanks for contributing, I love those examples! SlayerBadger!
JohnLRice
unrecordings wrote:
JohnLRice wrote:
Cool one! Impressively steady keyboard playing, I thought it was sequenced at first until I read your description! thumbs up


The M184 has built in arpeggiator... applause
Aha! applause I love using sequencers and arpeggiators as well! thumbs up
unrecordings
JohnLRice wrote:
Aha! applause I love using sequencers and arpeggiators as well! thumbs up


I was a means to an end, I'd forgotten how the poly modes work. Now I've found the manual it looks like they're similar to the MOTM650, I know paults had an M184 at some point.

I'm gathering my thoughts for a better patch this evening. I depatched pretty much everything this afternoon once I'd got a track idea safely multitracked. This time I'll patch with headphones on my head rather than six feet away
unrecordings
Here's the Roland M-184 manual. It's got some quite useful information on polyphony in modulars, and I notice it doesn't seem readily available to download anywhere else so here it is:
unrecordings
...and one more:

Four MOTM VCOs again, into a pair of MOTM 420 and a pair of MOTM440 filters, mixed in a quad VCA then piped through the Accutronics BTDR3 reverb that I made. All controlled again by the M184 in random mode

< 8th Jan: Attachment deleted, only one person downloaded it - moving to Soundcloud with a better patch >
CZ Rider
unrecordings wrote:
Here's the here's the Roland M-184 manual:

Thanks for sharing! Don't think I have seen that manual before. The Unison 2 mode is similar to the one I use on the MOTM-650. Where you patch 3 or 4 oscillators to play polyphonicly in a monosynth type patch. In this instance, you basically have a nice multi oscillator mono patch where you select the oscillator intervals or chords via the keyboard.
I found this type patch to be more enjoyable to play and control than having 4 seperate voices. And it only requires a basic few modules.

Here is a video using the MOTM-650 controlling a Minimoog. The Minimoog retains the original voice, yet being able to tune the three oscillators to chords via the keyboard takes this familiar voice to new territory.
coyoteous
I think Charles Stella had some 184/MOTM examples, as well

Maybe off-topic, but I still need to update my 650 to the latest firmware (or do I?).

Best way in 2018? This is at least a reminder that I need to do some searching on that.

There is the occasional MOTM thread in the Synthtech FB group, and I saw one sometime back about how to get the firmware update (writing to paults?)... clueless beyond that (also seem to remember it had to done with a PC? of which I have zero... never bootcamper, etc.).

Last module I bought from Paul... first and maybe only actual production run, I think (sat in a closet for years after that awaiting inspiration and me putting finally putting together my 950 kit... ended up with a secondhand 950, too... and BOOM, it lives!).
kindredlost
CZ Rider wrote:
Here is a video using the MOTM-650 controlling a Minimoog. The Minimoog retains the original voice, yet being able to tune the three oscillators to chords via the keyboard takes this familiar voice to new territory.


Mind Blown
kindredlost


Sorry, no 5U visuals this time around. Just a boring and simple presentation of the idea.

The patch is very simple. It is the MOTM650 Midi to CV/Gate module out to either the VCO (if it has two EXP Inputs) or a mixer. The midi cv is mixed with a cv from a sequencer. Each step of the sequencer is either a zero volt (root or null), a fifth or an octave up. Each time a voice or note from the midi module sends a gate it steps the sequencer. So the note changes in round robin fashion. Do this four times and you have pseudo-random melodic or chord changes. I purposefully left things very simple with a saw or ramp from each VCO and one filter at the end. A very slight reverb from the Lexicon MX200 was added to the end of the signal chain.
ppkstat
unrecordings wrote:
four filters (or mix everything into one filter)


I will be able to produce some polyphony very soon with my modular and I am not really getting this polyphonic vs paraphonic thing. I read that paraphony is not really polyphony, is that only because you don't have control of timbre in each individual voice? Being a beginner I cannot understand how important is this in sound design. I somehow think it is perfectly fine to use one filter hmmm.....

Well I guess I am going to find out...
kindredlost
I wouldn't worry too much about having four identical filters in a modular... unless you are only going to patch it for a polyphonic synth most of the time.

Which is weird really.

I have patched for a polyphonic setup many times but I'd say 90% of the time I use different filters and so forth for each "Voice" within the modular.

Of course everyone is different but I tend to look for polyphony with my keyboards instead of the modular.

The paraphonic idea came from some of the early synths like the string machines and only the really powerful and outrageously expensive true poly's like the Korg PS3100 and Yamaha CS80 had separate full signal chain for each voice. Even the big programmable boys like the Prophet 5 or Polymoog only had a few voices and that was rude on your checkbook due to the preset memory. Affordability finally came with the Japanese and the Korg Polysix and Roland Jupiter 4.

Things have gotten even cheaper and now you can get a 12 voice true poly (without true VCO's) from Behringer or Dave Smith for a fraction of the price of those bygone beasts.

Doing this in a modular is STILL an exercise in hair pulling, as well as finance draining.
Huba-Swift
ppkstat wrote:
unrecordings wrote:
four filters (or mix everything into one filter)


I will be able to produce some polyphony very soon with my modular and I am not really getting this polyphonic vs paraphonic thing. I read that paraphony is not really polyphony, is that only because you don't have control of timbre in each individual voice? Being a beginner I cannot understand how important is this in sound design. I somehow think it is perfectly fine to use one filter hmmm.....

Well I guess I am going to find out...

It is fine to use on filter, but there are limitations with playing paraphonically. Say you have a sound with both a long attack and release that is controlling the cutoff from the filter, in a polyphonic patch, each filter from each voice would be in a different state since the voices are all being played at different times. If you were to reduce this to only one filter, all of the voices would have to have the same cuttoff position since they're all going through the same filter. In a paraphonic patch like this, if you played one note and held it until the attack went high, then played a 2nd note, the second note would not have an attack and would instantly fully play through the filter because the filter is already opened by the first note played.
JohnLRice
kindredlost wrote:
Doing this in a modular is STILL an exercise in hair pulling, as well as finance draining.
It is silly, frustrating and excessive to try to do but . . .I keep trying for some reason! hihi meh Dead Banana




I used to get annoyed when trying to do a poly patch with different filters if I wanted each voice to sound exactly the same so I often didn't use filters at all as I kind of like the raw sound of VCOs anyways. But since the devil likes to play with my idle thoughts I started thinking once I got one Moon 517, if I got just one more . . .and another 511D dual envelope . . .I could do 4 voice poly with dynamic filters! hyper And since I already have 3 FM AIDs, just one more of those and I can throw those into the patch! hyper hyper hyper hyper

But, it's all easier said than done (or afforded)! Even though I have pretty much identical components for each voice, it's still a bit hard to get them all sounding exactly the same, likely due to slightly different parts tolerances and knobs attached slightly differently to pot shafts etc.

I have a 4 voice poly setup in eurorack also which I'm about to simplify and remove the 4 channel filter and associated quad EG since patching is so dense it's really not fun. With the euro setup I'm using all wave table VCOs though so modulating/morphing the wave forms gives the patches textural animation without using filters.

I keep looking for interesting ways to poly patch the modulars, and I know that there are things that could be done that wouldn't be possible on most keyboard synths but . . .when I look at the hassle and cost, and then just ponder cool synths that do poly much easier for a fraction of the cost . . . I think I'm quite weird and mad! Nutter! The MSN Smack! Bop!
Mark11Audio
CZ Rider wrote:
unrecordings wrote:
Here's the here's the Roland M-184 manual:

Thanks for sharing! Don't think I have seen that manual before. The Unison 2 mode is similar to the one I use on the MOTM-650. Where you patch 3 or 4 oscillators to play polyphonicly in a monosynth type patch. In this instance, you basically have a nice multi oscillator mono patch where you select the oscillator intervals or chords via the keyboard.
I found this type patch to be more enjoyable to play and control than having 4 seperate voices. And it only requires a basic few modules.

Here is a video using the MOTM-650 controlling a Minimoog. The Minimoog retains the original voice, yet being able to tune the three oscillators to chords via the keyboard takes this familiar voice to new territory.


I wonder if this is when Moog discovered what would become the "Memorymoog!" This sounds very much like my old MM+ I had... no mistaking those osc. voices! Very cool indeed! thumbs up thumbs up thumbs up
unrecordings
True you don't need four complete voices, but you can get a HUGE sound by doing this. I dropped everything a couple of octaves, swapped waveforms and pretended I was Vangelis on a CS80 for an hour or so. I even spent half an hour researching softpots for use as a kind of ribbon controller...

Patching though is a chore, and after I though I'd got my system just so, I ended up patching pretty long distances to get to my quad VCA and back to my mixer. So something we've learnt - vertical systems are great for polyphony, horizontal systems are great for multiple voices & experiments

Edit: I was cursing selling a pair of MOTM190 VCA (a long time ago, I had four) but realised that the Barton quad VCA/Mixer is just perfect. I was planning on using my passive vactrol LPGs on this patch exercise then realised that the panel I built only had three... d'oh!

Sometimes that thing of having three inputs but needing four really annoys me
DrReverendSeance
kindredlost wrote:
CZ Rider wrote:
Here is a video using the MOTM-650 controlling a Minimoog. The Minimoog retains the original voice, yet being able to tune the three oscillators to chords via the keyboard takes this familiar voice to new territory.


Mind Blown


I am trying to understand this - I understand that the pitch cv is directed to separate oscillators, but which key press is triggering the gate or are you mixing the gates together or how are you handling the gates? And how is the filter tracking handled? hmmm.....
ppkstat
As pitch cv is directed to separate oscillators, gates are directed to different envelopes in the exact same way. In a polyphonic setup there are several different gates, up to the number of total voices. So in a 4 voice setup you must engage 4vcos and 4 envelopes as the bare minimum.

If you do what Huba-Swift suggest, which is using an envelope for frequency modulation of the filters, for a 4 voice setup that ends up to 4vcos, 8 envelopes and 4 filters. And that bearing in mind that a single vco rarely cuts it for a single voice.

No wonder these patches are not very common, especially in 5u hihi
MUFF WIGGLER Forum Index -> 5U Format Modules Goto page 1, 2, 3  Next [all]
Page 1 of 3
Powered by phpBB © phpBB Group