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Pattern Bussing with out Q963 on Moog 960
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Author Pattern Bussing with out Q963 on Moog 960
Analog Music
Are there any equivalent or custom modules to the .Com Q963 Trigger Bus ?

The Q963 has to be installed around the back of a Q960 .
Are there any other module that can do the same thing with out needing to be installed around the back on lets say a Moog 960 sequencer ?

Could the Q963 be installed on a Moog 960 ?
ranix
v-trig outputs of the original 960 might be 3.3v logic high, the q963 expects +5v

might still work

you might have to do some frankenstein soldering of the q963 inputs to the positive pole of the 960 output jacks

first test the q963 to see if it will respond to +3.3v logic high and verify that's what the 960 actually outputs. Users here might be able to weigh in on whether or not there are differences between the "original" 960s and the remakes if you share what kind you are considering

the q960 is just as good and much cheaper though imho
bwhittington
Here are two ideas that occur to me for creating the same functionality as the 963 without rear connections to the 960:



Each row is it's own thing. Row 1 uses Moon 590 gate bus modules. You would route all of the 960 gate outputs to the Moon 590gi module, and as many of the switch modules as chose to expand to could output individual gate busses. There are 12 channels here. 4 could be used for something else. The drawback here is that the output modules would normally be hardwired to a specific module. You could route them to output jacks on a blank panel instead if you chose. The expandability would make this a robust option, but it has the drawback of requiring some installation, albeit not to the 960, as you specified. Moon could quite possibly ship the system to you in a way that would be ready to go if you specified it, but that is just an assumption.

The second row uses the Dotcom 961 to OR the gate outputs instead. Then you would send the 961 output to Moon 563 trigger seqeuncer's clock input. So long as the 960 and 563 resets were in sync, then you can create 4 trigger patterns that correspond to the 960 steps. This way is more straight froward with no rear connections. And the 563 is an amazing module in its own right.

Or you can wait for someone to have a way better answer. hihi
Analog Music
ranix wrote:


the q960 is just as good and much cheaper though imho

What about built quality ?

Thanks
Analog Music
bwhittington wrote:
Here are two ideas that occur to me for creating the same functionality as the 963 without rear connections to the 960:


Or you can wait for someone to have a way better answer. hihi


I think I need to be more clear on what I'm trying to do exactly , I may have jump the gun with this thread . But you have opened my eyes to new possibilities .

Thanks
ranix
Analog Music wrote:
ranix wrote:


the q960 is just as good and much cheaper though imho

What about built quality ?

Thanks


There are some quirks to the design philosophies of each manufacturer. I prefer many of synthesizers.com's philosophies to those of other manufacturers.

For example, .com does not include the PCB in the panel design - all connections from the front panel to the PCB are done via wires and connectors. This allows the user to easily modify the system (designing front panels etc.) compared to other manufacturers who might mount the jacks directly to their PCB

the pots and knobs and switches and bulbs are all the highest quality components that I could reasonably get myself

the panel design is definitely just like a 960 sequencer

one potential annoyance is that I think the original 960 had a 90% duty cycle on the v-trig outputs and the .com q960 has a 100% duty cycle, which makes dealing with its outputs a pain in the ass most of the time
LesMoMo
bwhittington wrote:
Here are two ideas that occur to me for creating the same functionality as the 963 without rear connections to the 960:



Each row is it's own thing. Row 1 uses Moon 590 gate bus modules. You would route all of the 960 gate outputs to the Moon 590gi module, and as many of the switch modules as chose to expand to could output individual gate busses. There are 12 channels here. 4 could be used for something else. The drawback here is that the output modules would normally be hardwired to a specific module. You could route them to output jacks on a blank panel instead if you chose. The expandability would make this a robust option, but it has the drawback of requiring some installation, albeit not to the 960, as you specified. Moon could quite possibly ship the system to you in a way that would be ready to go if you specified it, but that is just an assumption.

The second row uses the Dotcom 961 to OR the gate outputs instead. Then you would send the 961 output to Moon 563 trigger seqeuncer's clock input. So long as the 960 and 563 resets were in sync, then you can create 4 trigger patterns that correspond to the 960 steps. This way is more straight froward with no rear connections. And the 563 is an amazing module in its own right.

Or you can wait for someone to have a way better answer. hihi


Well - one of the "undocumented" Moon modules is helping to surface 4 sets of CV's and 4 sets of GATE's - the Moon 590OS (Output Stage) ...
LesMoMo
ranix wrote:
Analog Music wrote:
ranix wrote:


the q960 is just as good and much cheaper though imho

What about built quality ?

Thanks


There are some quirks to the design philosophies of each manufacturer. I prefer many of synthesizers.com's philosophies to those of other manufacturers.

For example, .com does not include the PCB in the panel design - all connections from the front panel to the PCB are done via wires and connectors. This allows the user to easily modify the system (designing front panels etc.) compared to other manufacturers who might mount the jacks directly to their PCB

the pots and knobs and switches and bulbs are all the highest quality components that I could reasonably get myself

the panel design is definitely just like a 960 sequencer

one potential annoyance is that I think the original 960 had a 90% duty cycle on the v-trig outputs and the .com q960 has a 100% duty cycle, which makes dealing with its outputs a pain in the ass most of the time


The Moog 960 does have a 100% duty cycle too, unfortunately. I do believe that other "clones" out there (MOS-LAB) have been "enhanced", though.
JohnLRice
LesMoMo wrote:
I do believe that other "clones" out there (MOS-LAB) have been "enhanced", though.
I'm not sure about the duty cycle but I do like how Seb basically built in the same functionality as a Q963 into the B version of his 960. thumbs up
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I feel bad posting this because I know I've posted it many times but I think the COTK C961S is one of the best accessory modules for a 960 sequencer ever! w00t (there is also a C961D if you have two 960 sequencers) You'd need to be willing to use an external clock instead of the internal 960 clock so maybe it's not always the best solution but it adds reverse, ping-pong and random direction sequencing as well as passing through the duty cycle of your clock source.

kindredlost
The duty cycle of the Q960 OSCILLATOR output is 90% but each stage output is 100%.

I use the Moon 563 with the Q960. I like it better than the Q963 Trigger Bus for a couple of reasons...

1) There are four rows on the 563 versus two on the Q963.

2) The duty cycle of each gate is adjustable on the 563.

3) The 563 allows for different clocks to each row.

4) The Q963 picks up the 100% duty cycle of the stage outputs (which Roger Arrick calls Triggers) instead of the 90% duty cycle of the on board oscillator inside the Q960. This makes it difficult to use unless you hook up the Q960WF cable behind the panel. The downside to using the Q960WF cable is that if you do NOT use the internal oscillator as the clock for the Q960 then it clamps the oscillator to an OFF state, thereby making the Q963 Trigger Bus useless. zombie To avoid all that you must use the internal clock of the Q960 or a separate clock to the shift and to whatever other modules (like a Switch module etc) to get proper clock pulses.


I still have the Q963 and use it for certain tasks but if I am using an external clock for the Q960 then I have to use that same clock to whatever module I am sending the triggers out of the Q963 (like a Switch module). Of course the same is true for the 563 so there really is no functional difference to be exact.

This used to be a real pain for when I wanted to incorporate hocketting or ratchet timing with the Q960, Q963 and a Q128 Switch. I now use an STG Switch which picks up the useful timings from the Time Buffer of the STG Time Suite. But that is a whole other kettle of fish.
Analog Music
Ok guys let me clear up what I'm trying to do , I'm trying to do the technique "Pattern Bussing" .

I may have to change the title of this thread to "How to do Pattern Bussing" .
I believe the author A. Strange wrote a rare book now out of print thats called this technique Pulse or something like that , sorry it's hard to find the book trust me I have been looking everywhere .

I'm trying to do the technique "Pattern Bussing" like in the video below but I have a few problems .



1. I want to do this same technique with 2 Moog 960s he's using Q960 .
2. he's also using Q963 that must be installed around the back of sequencer .
don't know if thats possible on Moog 960 or if it's a good idea .
This is why I asked if theres a Q963 alternative that didn't have to be
Installed around back of sequencer .
3. The reset function on the Q960 , which I believe the Moog 960 doesn't have how important is the reset function and are there work arounds on Moog 960 ?

I want to be able to do live sequence changing and transposing in realtime
with 2 Moog 960s ? is it possible
kindredlost
Analog Music wrote:

1. I want to do this same technique with 2 Moog 960s he's using Q960 .

Other than the RESET switch I think they are functionally identical.
May I ask if you own or are planning to own the new Moog IIIP setup with the add-on sequencer cabinet?
I'd love to have the IIIP cabs but the sequencer package I think is a little under-powered and over-priced compared to several other available vendors like synthesizers.com, MosLab and COTK. You can have quite a bit more functional power from all of those vendors for a lot less money, but I do see the allure of a complete Moog system. we're not worthy
Analog Music wrote:

2. he's also using Q963 that must be installed around the back of sequencer .
don't know if thats possible on Moog 960 or if it's a good idea .
This is why I asked if theres a Q963 alternative that didn't have to be
Installed around back of sequencer .

This is why the Moon 563 trigger sequencer was suggested. It is also helpful to have the Q962 Sequential Switch. What is happening in the video is more than just the 960 and a trigger bus. He is also summing the outputs from the drive sequencer and routing them via his mysterious "A/B Bus" module.
I don't know for sure but I'd suspect there might be a problem trying to use the Q963 Trigger Bus with a Moog 960. You would have to find the proper pcb board component point to attach the leads for the Q963. Not something I'd want to tackle.
Analog Music wrote:

3. The reset function on the Q960 , which I believe the Moog 960 doesn't have how important is the reset function and are there work arounds on Moog 960 ?

You can use the SKIP function but it is more switches to have to engage to do the same thing. For instance, if you wish to have the reset to stage one happen at stage four then you will have to have stages 5, 6, 7 & 8 Skip set before it reaches stage four. With the reset switch function all you do is set stage four to RESET and boink! it happens.
Morbius (the guy in the video) was the one who requested this feature (I think). Well, I do know he is the one who pestered Roger Arrick endlessly enough to build the Q960 series. We would have never had it if good ol' Morby hadn't gone to bat for us.
Tangerine Dream's Chris Franke had a way to do this as well and is the reason it is such a powerful feature. It can be done by sending the output gate at any time to the stage one input. You just have to figure out a way to tap the stage you wish. This is where the trigger bus is handy too. The reset position on the multi-selector knob just makes it very easy to do. Franke also had a set of push buttons included on the 960 for rest function per stage. That is another purpose of the trigger bus.
The nice thing about the Q963 is it has three positions. One left (A), one right (B) and the center for no signal - which can be the rest function. You could use the right one for whatever stage you wish to have sounding, the center for a rest and the left bus for reset. Pretty basic but handy never the less.
Analog Music wrote:

I want to be able to do live sequence changing and transposing in realtime
with 2 Moog 960s ? is it possible

Transposing is a simple matter of sending the keyboard voltage to the VCO's along with the step sequencer voltages. No problems there.
The "sequence changing" or pattern bussing as Morbius calls it is a matter of patch dedication but should be able to be done with any 960 or clone. The extra modules involved are the key.
It is possible to do this with any number of means available to direct the input and output stage signals back and forth between the two sequencers. You could use a mixer or a switch module or the sequential switch module or the trigger bus. Many ways to skin that cat.
I am not really certain what Morbius calls his "A/B Bus" in the video(s). Apparently they are not a synthesizers.com module but rather something he made up to use for his purposes there. I haven't heard from Morbius in years.
ranix
kindredlost wrote:
You would have to find the proper pcb board component point to attach the leads for the Q963.


I would attempt to solder the wires from the q963 directly to the positive terminals of the output 1/4" jacks on the 960 (or if they can't be in the same cabinet come up with a Rex Coil-esque frankenstein plug solution)

actually it might be a good idea for you to check out the "Super Mini Modular" thread in this forum, it might give you some good ideas for how to accomplish things like this

the only question is whether or not the output voltage of the 960 is high enough to trigger the q963

I think there is a very good chance that it is, but I don't feel like testing this myself (I'd have to remove my q963s)

960 sequencer outputs should be fine to mult in this manner
Analog Music
kindredlost wrote:

May I ask if you own or are planning to own the new Moog IIIP setup with the add-on sequencer cabinet?
I'd love to have the IIIP cabs but the sequencer package I think is a little under-powered and over-priced compared to several other available vendors like synthesizers.com, MosLab and COTK. You can have quite a bit more functional power from all of those vendors for a lot less money, but I do see the allure of a complete Moog system. we're not worthy

No , I'm poor , I just dream of wires , it would have to be a gift from the Universe for me to get it but I'm hopeful we're not worthy but yes that is my goal as impossible stupid crazy as it seems I feel like I have to try some how .
So doing some research just in case .

Yea the Moon 563 trigger sequencer is starting to make sense to me , I couldn't see it before .
But to be honest I'm starting to think that what I want to do is not possible with the Moog 960 , I just can't figure out exactly what the guy in the video is doing ,
he seems to have some secret modules or something can't figure it out maybe he works for DotCom and wants you to only use their stuff but I had dreams of using 960s like the 70s music heroes did even though the Q960 seems to have it beat in function .



The weird thing is there doesn't seem to be many Moog people here to give there take on it , were are all the old Moog gurus at ?
I can't find them anywhere , maybe living in secret Moog caves .
Analog Music
kindredlost wrote:

May I ask if you own or are planning to own the new Moog IIIP setup with the add-on sequencer cabinet?
I'd love to have the IIIP cabs but the sequencer package I think is a little under-powered and over-priced compared to several other available vendors like synthesizers.com, MosLab and COTK. You can have quite a bit more functional power from all of those vendors for a lot less money, but I do see the allure of a complete Moog system. we're not worthy

No , I'm poor , I just dream of wires , it would have to be a gift from the Universe for me to get it but I'm hopeful we're not worthy but yes that is my goal as impossible stupid crazy as it seems I feel like I have to try some how .
So doing some research just in case .

Yea the Moon 563 trigger sequencer is starting to make sense to me , I couldn't see it before .
But to be honest I'm starting to think that what I want to do is not possible with the Moog 960 , I just can't figure out exactly what the guy in the video is doing ,
he seems to have some secret modules or something can't figure it out maybe he works for DotCom and wants you to only use their stuff which I understand they make great stuff but I had dreams of using 960s like the 70s music heroes did even though the Q960 seems to have it beat in function .



The weird thing is there doesn't seem to be many Moog people here to give there take on it , were are all the old Moog gurus at ?
I can't find them anywhere , maybe living in secret Moog caves .
JohnLRice
Analog Music wrote:
The weird thing is there doesn't seem to be many Moog people here to give there take on it , were are all the old Moog gurus at ?
I can't find them anywhere , maybe living in secret Moog caves .

They are lurking around here but, they tend to hide in the secret Moog caves below Ninja Mr. Green

Moog Music General Topics Forum
https://forum.moogmusic.com/viewforum.php?f=1

Moog Music Modular Forum
https://forum.moogmusic.com/viewforum.php?f=18
kindredlost
ranix wrote:
kindredlost wrote:
You would have to find the proper pcb board component point to attach the leads for the Q963.


I would attempt to solder the wires from the q963 directly to the positive terminals of the output 1/4" jacks on the 960 (or if they can't be in the same cabinet come up with a Rex Coil-esque frankenstein plug solution)

actually it might be a good idea for you to check out the "Super Mini Modular" thread in this forum, it might give you some good ideas for how to accomplish things like this

the only question is whether or not the output voltage of the 960 is high enough to trigger the q963

I think there is a very good chance that it is, but I don't feel like testing this myself (I'd have to remove my q963s)

960 sequencer outputs should be fine to mult in this manner


Good idea ranix. Soldering to the jacks might be a lot safer.

The Q963 is basically passive except for some directional diodes. The special A/B Bus module Morbius made is just a Trigger Bus with the jacks in place of the wiring harness. It is free standing and passive too. The 960 gate levels will have no effect on the module.

As far as Morbius working for synthesizers.com - NOT. He was just one of the early customers who bought boat-loads of modules from them. Roger Arrick is very good at listening to his customer base and Morbius was quite vocal about things. JohnLRice, B Whittington, spinach pizza and others here were once a part of the Yahoo group that dotcom started back a decade or so ago. We remember the constant postings from Morbius. An unusual guy to say the least. lol

Last night I worked a little on the pattern bussing type of patch. I only used the Q963 for that duty and used the Moon 563 for triggering other sequencers. I think the 563 could be used very effectively as a control tool for this technique but you have to try to keep everything in sync. If you don't have two Q960's it will still work and that is why this idea Morbius promoted so vociferously was really not all that impressive. It is just a way to make the 960 do something more than a linear, straight line motion.

As our resident "master of sequence" Johnny Rice will tell you, the Moon series voltage sequencer is capable of this and much more. The Q960 is a classic design and has a few good tricks but is not nearly as flexible as some other sequencers. It relies heavily on outside modules and patch points for it's wider range. Still, I love the old mare and have a pair of them myself. I think part of what makes good music is simplicity and when things get too outrageous the loss of musical language can happen. To each their own.
kindredlost
Here is a better view of the so-called SPECIAL A/B Bus module.



You can see it without any cables plugged in above the sequencers. It is sandwiched between the Q961 Interfaces and the Q962 Sequential Switches. It is the only evidence I have seen of the module. There could have been more info back in the day when he was promoting this technique on the Yahoo group but I don't remember. It's all a little fuzzy now.

I'll let you in on a little secret... cool I am poor too. I started with the synthesizers.com module-a-month system (Entry System #2) and grew S-L-O-W-L-Y from there over a decade or so. Like most will tell you, it is better to go slow and learn each module as they come in than to spring for the wall of modules. You get very familiar that way. It's the Journey man. It doesn't matter if it is a dotcom, Moon, MosLab, COTK, or Moog. Any brand or vendor you decide to go with will be the same venture. Mix and match is great too. Just start somewhere and you will be surprised at how fast it happens. The dotcom entry system is just a bit easier to start with.
JohnLRice
kindredlost wrote:
Johnny Rice will tell you, the Moon series voltage sequencer is capable of this and much more.
Dancing Star Soapbox Dancing Star
Analog Music
kindredlost wrote:


As far as Morbius working for synthesizers.com - NOT. He was just one of the early customers who bought boat-loads of modules from them. Roger Arrick is very good at listening to his customer base and Morbius was quite vocal about things. JohnLRice, B Whittington, spinach pizza and others here were once a part of the Yahoo group that dotcom started back a decade or so ago. We remember the constant postings from Morbius. An unusual guy to say the least. lol

Last night I worked a little on the pattern bussing type of patch. I only used the Q963 for that duty and used the Moon 563 for triggering other sequencers. I think the 563 could be used very effectively as a control tool for this technique but you have to try to keep everything in sync. If you don't have two Q960's it will still work and that is why this idea Morbius promoted so vociferously was really not all that impressive. It is just a way to make the 960 do something more than a linear, straight line motion.

As our resident "master of sequence" Johnny Rice will tell you, the Moon series voltage sequencer is capable of this and much more. The Q960 is a classic design and has a few good tricks but is not nearly as flexible as some other sequencers. It relies heavily on outside modules and patch points for it's wider range. Still, I love the old mare and have a pair of them myself. I think part of what makes good music is simplicity and when things get too outrageous the loss of musical language can happen. To each their own.

Excellent post thank you for sharing so much info .
Analog Music
JohnLRice wrote:
kindredlost wrote:
Johnny Rice will tell you, the Moon series voltage sequencer is capable of this and much more.
Dancing Star Soapbox Dancing Star

Ok John I know you probably get tired of me asking you about sequencers but would love to hear your take on this pattern bussing thing .
What I would like to do is what Möbius is doing in the videos and that's create
Hypnotic Sequences that I can change and transpose live in real time on the fly like he does with every thing in sync . He calls it pattern bussing but I guess it doesn't matter as long as the desired result is achieved.

I want to use 2 Moog 960s to do this technique but because it doesn't have the reset feature I'm afraid it might not work properly , any suggestion are appreciate it .

But John I would love to hear how you would go about to get the same or similar or even more interesting results with Moon or any combination you can think of like Kindredlost said
kindredlost
Now I feel guilty of heaping more onto JLR’s shoulders. I suggest you first go and thoroughly scavage the YouTube channel John has. There are many very well documented examples of the Moon sequencers and aid modules in use there. You may already be familiar so this might be poor advice but I owe it to John to mention it at least.
JohnLRice
Dead Banana

Mr. Green


While I really enjoyed Morbius' sequencing work, I never had his same compliment of modules and I can't say I ever fully understood exactly what he was doing, although I had a general idea. I think a couple times someone commented on a video or two of mine that "hey, you are doing the Morbius pattern bussing thing!" but I don't remember which ones . . . seriously, i just don't get it

As my friend and colleague kindredlost suggested, it would easier for me if you watched some of my sequencing videos and then asked me how I did one or two that come closest to what you want to accomplish. (and even then I might not be sure! eek! lol )

Here's some to get you started:

My first video with the 569:


This is a playlist of 6 videos (so far?) titled "M569, Control Yourself!" and focuses on somewhat more advanced things that can be done with a 569 by itself, with a modification I made, and with one to several accessory/aid modules.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_pAMy0e5izI&list=PL0y5yg9b8JyKsyN5XOOIV bz5cQC9HvI1g

This one is fairly complex, an idea I had to try to get the 569 to step vertically:


Here's some more . . .



zeta
Might be of interest at this point.. https://www.muffwiggler.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=56553
&
A. Strange, Page 73, pulse adress.
kindredlost
The technique Morbius is using involves the choice of which stage the receiver 960 will play in the melodic forward moving phrase but with broken start or jump points. Most of the notes in the phrase remain the same relative pattern giving the illusion of a varying but similar melodic phrase. It just picks different jump points from the trigger bus switch. Since each output from the C 961S (or Q963 Trigger Bus) is hard wired to a specific step of the 960 input jacks then it makes no difference whether they are both in clock sync starting together at stage one or not.

Of course this could happen in any number of ways with any number of controllers. It is just a fun VISUAL exercise to do it with a stepping trigger source moving along relative to the voltage sequencer. From a pattern comparison standpoint that is. To the outside observer it is a little obtuse so it's no wonder we all a are a little perplexed as to what is gong on. We aren't throwing the switches and keeping a time in our own minds while it is playing like the operator is.

When you add reverse, ping pong and random directions to the trigger choice you get no difference in the effect. You could in theory just plug outputs to inputs on the 960 itself in real time and get the same effect. For that matter why bother and why not just use the function switches to get a similar effect?

It's a little close to misdirection to say you must have two 960's and all these trigger bus modules to do pattern changes on a 960. meh
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