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Truly Random Midi Question.
MUFF WIGGLER Forum Index -> Modular Synth General Discussion Goto page 1, 2  Next [all]
Author Truly Random Midi Question.
beach.ism
Hello Muff Wiggler!

im beach.ism from sweden.


Lets say i wanted TRULY random midi signals (newbie to eurorack).

I want to send TRULY random midi (to 4 or more midi channes controlling an hardware sampler, experimenting with data parameters on filter settings, pitch bend wheel, notes, tempo. 0-127.

How?

random cv generator/noise A-118 > A-192-2/A-192 CMV16cv to midi > sampler?

Ive googled around some, but its a jungle for a eurorack newbie, looks like one would need lots of eurorack gear to be able to make an A-192 CMV16 do this?

What modules do i need to set the randomness to talk with my hardware sampler (Asr-10). Can i get the right midi paramters (????) to tap in to that specific Midi CC ?

I want to be able to random modulate that asr data entry slider! lolz

Freeze/Hold/Loop/pattern repeat function of the midi would be cool too. hmmm.....


Solder a tube noise generator to a midi controller?? lol like i said i have no idea.


Would be great if anyone of you guys could point me in the right direction.

How would a chain look if i wanted ^.
Thanks.
Synthiq
The 31.25 kbaud speed is fixed and defined by the MIDI standard and applies to communication using the 5-pin DIN connector. MIDI can also be sent over USB and can then be faster but I have never seen any spec for maximum speed. But the USB protocol has built-in flow control so the receiver can reject any new data if it can't keep up and the transmitter will resend the data until it is accepted.

You mention you don't want it to be quantized, but many control change messages are limited to 7 bit values and may, or may not, be considered quantized. Notes are also 7 bits and normally limited to 12 notes per octave unless you combine it with pitch bend.

I have no experience with the A-192-1 CVM16 but it seems like it can send 16 different control change messages while A-192-2 appears to be able to generate 2 separate note-on/note-off streams. If you are open to DIY, you can use an Arduino to generate any MIDI commands you want.
HighLordFixer
Eye can throw together something that will do random virtual voltage to midi channels/midi cc... let me ponder this plus look through some of my old projects.... Eye can this on my ASR10R... it will be 32bit... can also probably randomize note based upon BPM sync from 32 measure for 1/16 range or controllable free LFO speed making the changes for emitting random note/number...
been doing that recently anyway updating NekroFile
can slap together some little random midi/cc injector utility...
when have some extra time between projects...
it's another reason for me doing fun skinjob...
otherwise you can try sounus guitar to midi...
then inject white noise and/or random CV...
you will definitely freak out the Sonus
beach.ism
Synthiq wrote:
The 31.25 kbaud speed is fixed and defined by the MIDI standard and applies to communication using the 5-pin DIN connector. MIDI can also be sent over USB and can then be faster but I have never seen any spec for maximum speed. But the USB protocol has built-in flow control so the receiver can reject any new data if it can't keep up and the transmitter will resend the data until it is accepted.


Ok, sounds like midi standard is set by midi cable?

Synthiq wrote:
You mention you don't want it to be quantized, but many control change messages are limited to 7 bit values and may, or may not, be considered quantized. Notes are also 7 bits and normally limited to 12 notes per octave unless you combine it with pitch bend.


What type of quantizator would you say fit this purpose?

Synthiq wrote:
I have no experience with the A-192-1 CVM16 but it seems like it can send 16 different control change messages while A-192-2 appears to be able to generate 2 separate note-on/note-off streams.


I will look into them both, just thought id post here first.

Synthiq wrote:
If you are open to DIY, you can use an Arduino to generate any MIDI commands you want.


I have no experience with arduino. Sounds cool. Basically i want random midi bursting from 0 to 1000 CC on 4 or more channels, being able to limit changes per second, somewhat length of hold and also quantization if needed.

Any recommendations of tools for this welcome.
beach.ism
HighLordFixer wrote:
Eye can throw together something that will do random virtual voltage to midi channels/midi cc... let me ponder this plus look through some of my old projects.... Eye can this on my ASR10R... it will be 32bit... can also probably randomize note based upon BPM sync from 32 measure for 1/16 range or controllable free LFO speed making the changes for emitting random note/number...
been doing that recently anyway updating NekroFile
can slap together some little random midi/cc injector utility...
when have some extra time between projects...
it's another reason for me doing fun skinjob...
otherwise you can try sounus guitar to midi...
then inject white noise and/or random CV...
you will definitely freak out the Sonus


Interesting, smile

My fetish is real randomness, analog/tube generated.

Havent spotted any true random generator in eurorack form.

My english is terrible. Your software sounds really cool.

Sounus guitar to midi? lol will look into this.
HighLordFixer
What is the Midi buffer is full error? without locking to some clock in sample hold style.. then trying to cram as many midi random notes(data) and chaos as possible you will only freeze the sampler requiring hard reboot...
anyways...
made some basic engine for 8 channel randomizer for my ARS10r just now...
next want getting it scale quantizing....
thanks...
feel like I've done this before...
sounds like Nancarrow piano rolls

sounds like the three stooges on acid..
no wonder zappa liked Nancarrow so much razz
doesn't sound that bad until the scale quantizer....
for now it sounds more like my MS20s sample hold patched correctly
had some time waiting for emails... bandcamp API responses on another project....
Thoth eye had done this before years ago....
wanted seeing if could remember how
looked at the ensoniq sampler sitting next to me...
and said...
wake up you magnificent monster!
load some sounds from my personal CD Rom series
Dankes furs basic idea
eye can use this on some project soon
HighLordFixer
let me ponder this some more... another way.... managed getting randomized midi.... yet it's just the typical random midi notes.... until eye inject white noise.... and of start speeding it up around 1/32+ 1/64th clocked notes...
agree with you....
want it sounding more like overloading resonant filters oscillating everywhere
that was giving somewhat near the should sort of imagine as the desired...
the non musical....
feel
Too fast and it forces sampler rebooting...
1/64 does that now
Dave Peck
There are plenty of random signal generator modules in Euro format. See here:

https://www.modulargrid.net/e/modules/browser?SearchName=&SearchVendor =&SearchFunction=27&SearchSecondaryfunction=&SearchTe=&SearchTemethod= max&SearchBuildtype=&SearchLifecycle=&SearchSet=&SearchMarketplace=&Se archIsmodeled=0&SearchShowothers=1&SearchShow1u=0&order=tag&direction= asc

..and there are several different modules for converting the analog CV signals from these random modules to MIDI, available from Doepfer, Analogue Systems, Analogue Solutions, Delptronics, ADDAC Systems, etc.
HighLordFixer
yeah it's his call... toying with something now... it's not about buying something for me.... if that were the case would have just used the Sonus...
or played micro cassette backwards with surf sounds & white/pink noise into the x911... then taken the full recording and had it random edit itself to bpm clock... attempting some experiments... it's working now with my mechwarfare custom made ensoniq samples that are one sample per key full range... building one channel strip plugin... you can load that in 8 channels... then have it generate midi... attempting not having it sound like randomized "midi"
the other factor would be coming up with some way for random length note gates...
do you have any handy schematics for analog or digital randomizer modules?
actually he inspired me for ripping the guts out of my NekroFile extreme wav manipulator that is an automated abattior... for getting the random kaos function controlling my Ensoniq sampler in much the same way.... you can't touch it with any current modules... random cv to midi cv... nah that's not anywhere near close.... this is going to need bpm sync injecting random into sampler for changing sample selection sample position sample length midi CC... anyway... drop him some good suggestion for randomize CV... maybe random gates... then he can CV basic MIDI to his sampler....
HighLordFixer
keep in mind the biggest part of getting random midi sounds actually sounding "random"on sampler is building your custom samples... make sure you have unique sound on each key... full range key mapping
9 full octaves will work best...
yet that in itself is some work....
already made up bunch of samples that way...
hack a movie or something into short samples...
so each key has it's own sound
you will get some good results that way
Synthiq
beach.ism wrote:
Ok, sounds like midi standard is set by midi cable?

My guess is the 31.25k baud rate was selected because it was reasonable fast and the hardware to generate the clock was cheap.

beach.ism wrote:
What type of quantizator would you say fit this purpose?

I didn't argue for a quantizer, just tried to point out that some MIDI parameters only use 7 bits so there are only 128 levels which in some cases is not enough to be perceived as continuous signals and this is especially true for notes that can normally only step in semitone steps. Some other parameters use 14 bits, like the first 32 continuous controllers and pitch bend use 14 bits and has much higher resolution.

If you are serious about MIDI, I suggest you read the MIDI specification to better understand what you can do. Do a search for "complete midi 1.0 detailed specification" to find it.

beach.ism wrote:
I have no experience with arduino. Sounds cool. Basically i want random midi bursting from 0 to 1000 CC on 4 or more channels, being able to limit changes per second, somewhat length of hold and also quantization if needed.

Any recommendations of tools for this welcome.

If you are interested in programming an Arduino to generate MIDI commands, start by going to https://www.arduino.cc/ to learn more and download the free development tool. There are a lot of Arduino code examples to help you get started. Many MIDI commands sends 3 bytes and will take 960us to transmit. Even with a modest 16MHz clock, an Arduino can execute more than 15,000 instructions during that time so you can do a lot of processing during that time.
beach.ism
HighLordFixer wrote:

do you have any handy schematics for analog or digital randomizer modules?



Nah, googled random midi and came up with this :

https://medium.com/@nebsp/jack-jill-midi-music-improvisor-generative-s equencer-e544d7c740fc

Hard to say if hes still working on it, looks like hes drawn to the more musical side of the randomness.



HighLordFixer wrote:
actually he inspired me for ripping the guts out of my NekroFile extreme wav manipulator


smile.

HighLordFixer wrote:
you can't touch it with any current modules... random cv to midi cv... nah that's not anywhere near close.... this is going to need bpm sync injecting random into sampler for changing sample selection sample position sample length midi CC... anyway... drop him some good suggestion for randomize CV... maybe random gates... then he can CV basic MIDI to his sampler....



How i would like to control the randomness? Well rate/length.

Where i want to send random midi :

1. ASR-10 data entry (Most important)

3. Mod Wheel (SMPL start etc)

4. Notes

5. Maybe foot pedal (routing possibilities)


Im no expert in midi or eurorack or arduino.

From what i understand i need an random cv/noise module? and a cv>midi module?

The gate/quantization/fine tune voltage adjusting to form specific Midi CC values and also to control amount/speed while sending these midi to the asr-10 is chinese to me.

So pls talk newbiesh.

I will read more about midi.
beach.ism
wow even my posts seems to buffer overflow Error 144


When i press edit post i see messages but when sumbitting theyre blank?
HighLordFixer
attempted some experiments for hours last night...
anytime got near desired sound and the speed...
using "synth Instrument" sample...
it would cause hard reboot...
plus some other glitchyness....
may hack out some extra features...
then slap skinjob on it so you can experiment with it
sduck
beach.ism wrote:
wow even my posts seems to buffer overflow Error 144


When i press edit post i see messages but when sumbitting theyre blank?


You're putting url tags around url's - you don't need them, the software adds them automatically, but if you do add them it blows up part of a moor in Scotland and renders your post invisible all at once.
HighLordFixer
arghhhhhhhh AYE!!! stop blowin up Scotland!!!
cornutt
Synthiq wrote:

My guess is the 31.25k baud rate was selected because it was reasonable fast and the hardware to generate the clock was cheap.


I think it was derived from one of those color TV crystal oscillators that were a dime a dozen back then. However, it wasn't really a serial line standard -- 38.4 kbaud would have been a standard rate at the time, and a lot easier to generate with a UART. So I really don't know the reasoning.
Synthiq
cornutt wrote:
I think it was derived from one of those color TV crystal oscillators that were a dime a dozen back then. However, it wasn't really a serial line standard -- 38.4 kbaud would have been a standard rate at the time, and a lot easier to generate with a UART. So I really don't know the reasoning.

The UART used for serial communication is clocked at 16 times the baud rate so it would be 500kHz in this case. The early Motorola MC6800 processor and Intel 8080 processors could be clocked at 1MHz and 2MHz so these clocks only had to be divided by 2 or 4 to generate the 500kHz for the UART so that would make a lot of sense to me.
HighLordFixer

used virtual static x2...
VCO/LFO...
BPM Sync LFO 8b to /32 range...
my original white noise method kept crashing sampler causing hard reboot error....
plus added external gate option...
so it can be manually played or sequenced for Kaotic midi noise Blasts...
no clue if that's what you were saying...
works for me razz
SKOL!!!
Eye will record some demo tracks when have extra time
made multiple versions....
one that is safe for hardware samplers... doesn't cause machine reboots...
another that prime for using Midi CV/gate.... high speed midi bursts
HighLordFixer

SynthWizards KaosMidiFire Extreme Version
Fully Functional for CV/Gate
Dankes Furs Inspiration
Skål
Let me slap together utility for random to selected MIDI CC when have extra time...
Eye will use noise/static plus give it wide range LFO
that will automate CC params
Fire&Ice
beach.ism
HighLordFixer wrote:

SynthWizards KaosMidiFire Extreme Version
Fully Functional for CV/Gate
Dankes Furs Inspiration
Skål
Let me slap together utility for random to selected MIDI CC when have extra time...
Eye will use noise/static plus give it wide range LFO
that will automate CC params
Fire&Ice



Skål!

Amazing!

Random to selected midi sounds awesome.

Looking forward to see/hear example from blasting Asr!

Especially the data entry.

=).
HighLordFixer

my usual FX used on this recording


KaosMidiFire is the composition tool generating all MIDI on this Demo
EBM/Aggro full zone custom drumkit sample
Original Korg MS20 w/korg 35 chip
plus some bassstation because was too lazy pulling Kenton off Avatar in other room:P
1shot realtime recorded from Tascam 1516 mixer into ProTools rack
KaosMidiFire Demo1 as requested:
http://www.n01ze.com/Muzak/Trax/Nekronaut_OrgasmicDataRapeBrutality.mp 3
beach.ism
HighLordFixer wrote:

my usual FX used on this recording


KaosMidiFire is the composition tool generating all MIDI on this Demo
EBM/Aggro full zone custom drumkit sample
Original Korg MS20 w/korg 35 chip
plus some bassstation because was too lazy pulling Kenton off Avatar in other room:P
1shot realtime recorded from Tascam 1516 mixer into ProTools rack
KaosMidiFire Demo1 as requested:
http://www.n01ze.com/Muzak/Trax/Nekronaut_OrgasmicDataRapeBrutality.mp 3




KRAZY.

Are you touching while it records or is it straigt up random?

A bit bassy/many things going for me to hear how the randomness behaves.

Maybe you could demo randomness on one sound? Like a hitting a snare both hits and pitch modulationusing kaosmidifire? . Drumkit sample on Asr btw?

I understand = nada from looking at the kaosmidifire could you explain the knobs?

How would the settings be if i wanted to reach the asr data entry and modulate it from kaosmidifire?

And what is your path from the computer? midi>cv kenton you said?

Also what in the kaosmidifire is generating the randomness? Pseudo random algorithms?

Like i said sounds crazy but i only understand some of what youre actually doing.
beach.ism
Did you use hardware sampler? How does it work to send/route kaosmidifire to specific Midi CC?
HighLordFixer
it was 10 minutes... eye was wiggling knobs
for using it as composition tool
tried making Division time and waveforms randomize
yet need coming up with better way for with wide random spread
that will cover the full range
the extreme version will make your sampler vomit and freeze
on specific settings
forgot eye had built something slightly based on this theory
randomizing notes in my analog sequencer Emu MIDI experiments
started playing with MIDI CC randomizers while designing KMF
was running out of interface space
will make some Midi CC tool with randomizer & bpm sync LFO
white/pink noise injectors into Midi makes sampler freak reboot
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