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Grounding my Buchla case to eurorack: Which 'Ground'??
MUFF WIGGLER Forum Index -> Buchla, EMS & Serge  
Author Grounding my Buchla case to eurorack: Which 'Ground'??
cv_rave_on
I asked this in another thread but wanted to ask in it's own thread.

I want to use my Buchla with my eurorack but my aftermarket Buchla case does not have a ground banana plug like my Music Easel. I plan to drill a boat in the cabinet and insert a ground connection but I do not know which one to connect!

I see ground, noisy ground, quiet ground, etc. Which ground should I be connecting so I can link up my cases?

And on the eurorack end, should I be grounding to the physical power ground or the 0v?
captnapalm
cv_rave_on wrote:
I asked this in another thread but wanted to ask in it's own thread.

I want to use my Buchla with my eurorack but my aftermarket Buchla case does not have a ground banana plug like my Music Easel. I plan to drill a boat in the cabinet and insert a ground connection but I do not know which one to connect!

I see ground, noisy ground, quiet ground, etc. Which ground should I be connecting so I can link up my cases?

And on the eurorack end, should I be grounding to the physical power ground or the 0v?


You want quiet ground on the Buchla. On the Euro I'd guess 0v but somebody more familiar with Euro should confirm.
Graham Hinton
cv_rave_on wrote:

I want to use my Buchla with my eurorack but my aftermarket Buchla case does not have a ground banana plug like my Music Easel. I plan to drill a boat in the cabinet and insert a ground connection but I do not know which one to connect!

I see ground, noisy ground, quiet ground, etc. Which ground should I be connecting so I can link up my cases?


Calling something quiet or noisy does not make them so. It really means analogue common and digital common and where this technique may be used within a small closed system, it does not extend well over a large modular system. If the two commons become connected other than one single place in the power distribution, like within a module, the whole system is defeated.

Connecting large systems together with a banana cable is equally naive.

Quote:

And on the eurorack end, should I be grounding to the physical power ground or the 0v?


You aren't grounding anything, you might not have a ground anyway, you should be trying to establish a low resistance signal common. This requires a low resistance 0V distribution in both systems and a low resistance link. Low in this context means a few milliohms maximum and it more important where the connections are made.

Translating synthesizer malpractise in to engineering language, connecting a banana jack on a PSU to another is really chassis bonding, or it would be if the jack was connected to mains Earth or there was a chassis. These points are usually separated from the modules by cables carrying >1A and there is both a DC and an AC voltage drop along them that you don't want becoming part of your signals.

The points that should be connected are the 0Vs of each system at the distribution. Given that mains Earth cables and chassis bonding may already be in place what is needed is a lower resistance path directly between the 0Vs. I recommend the use of 25mm Dinse connectors for this purpose and this purpose only. You would need at least one of these on each case internally connected to the 0V distribution with a heavy cable like a battery cable. The Dinse jacks have an M8 bolt on the back so you need an 8mm terminal that end, the problem will be how you attach it to a pcb not designed with that in mind. You might only have one faston tab, if that.



Externally you will need 25mm2 cable. If you have more than two cases you will need more jacks in each so that they can be joined in a mesh rather than a chain.
Don T
Prodigiously Prolific Pedantic Pontification
Kent
Don T wrote:
Prodigiously Prolific Pedantic Pontification


Please be more respectful. There was nothing in his post that wasn’t useful and this forum could benefit from less bile.
Don T
Kent wrote:
Don T wrote:
Prodigiously Prolific Pedantic Pontification


Please be more respectful. There was nothing in his post that wasn’t useful and this forum could benefit from less bile.


If you are looking for an apology, there will be none.

Giving a lengthy, supercilious dissertation in response to a simple question is just as off-putting as a sarcastic answer, if not more so. The man has done so on numerous occasions, and appears incapable of normal social discourse. Rather, he quite blatantly tries to prove his self-perceived superiority at almost every opportunity. Respect is a two-way street.

Ban me if you wish
thetwlo
Graham Hinton wrote:


Calling something quiet or noisy does .....


Excellent info, very educational!
Thanks Graham!
missingtwin
I was not aware of this type of jack:
Dinse Jacks

I applaud GH’s post, have sought out his posts
for info in the past, and hope he will continue
to post such information.

His delivery is entertaining to boot!

Carry on Mr Hinton! you kids get off my lawn
SlayerBadger!
cv_rave_on
Any other suggestions? I prefer not to respond to Mr. Hinton at all.
missingtwin
Interesting approach to solving your issue.
papz
The Buchla's tinijax sockets nut / sleeve are connected to quiet ground, like the eurorack's minijack sockets to 0V.
You can use a tinijax cable (a bit larger than minijack but fits some sockets, like Cliff ones) or minijack cable that works with tinijax (some work, others don't) whose tip is disconnected so only the sleeve is used and does a ground connection between both systems.
Not an ideal high spec military grade connection but it should do the job in most cases and doesn't need any drill or intervention on the PSU.
cv_rave_on
missingtwin wrote:
Interesting approach to solving your issue.


Is it? Asking for an alternative opinion.

Naive is an interesting choice of word here. When I was working at AIR and Abbey Road I didn't see the holy Hinton methods being used. In fact, I don't recall the name Hinton ever being uttered in either of those facilities. It's a wonder the recording industry has survived and sustained this long without the wisdom of Mr. Hinton. Less sarcastically, the my way or the highway method can't possibly be the only way.

I've read one of his methods in previous threads. Hinton takes several, what look to be, solid core cables in a group directly from the ps ground joined to a large aluminum bus bar with bolts and such. That's great and all, but the studio I am currently working for has a number of different reasons why a large permanent structure such as a modular synthesizer table is just not possible. I also don't wish to have a similar permanent structure at my home studio. Yet another reason to ask for alternative advice.

Manufacturers also have a method. The dozens of Buchla rigs I have worked with in the past have a black banana jack for you to ground to other cabinets. Ground being other manufacturers word, not mine. It says it right here on my Buchla power supply "Noisy Ground", "Quiet Ground", etc. My Ciat pieces, Phenol, etc all have a black banana jack on the back and specify to connect it if you are going to be patching other gear to prevent damage. Don't kill the messanger for echoing terminology that is used by the people designing the gear.

I simply want to connect my Buchla cabinet to my other gear safely. Is that so wrong?

Lastly, Mr. Hinton really didn't answer my question. 'The points that should be connected are 0v of each system at the distribution'. Way to be super specific in your lecture of how wrong I apparently am for echoing what's written on a circuit board in front of my own two eyes and then being completely vague on the actual solution. The distribution as in case PS inlet? The wall power outlet? The breaker box? The distribution center down the street?
Graham Hinton
missingtwin wrote:
I was not aware of this type of jack:
Dinse Jacks


Nor was I a year ago. They are used almost exclusively for welding equipment connections and only sold through welding suppliers, or on eBay. I chose to use them because they are readily available worldwide and fit the requirements for a low resistance connection (which a banana jack does not). In this application we are concerned with I.R (voltage drops) rather than I^2.R (power heating).


cv_rave_on wrote:
Naive is an interesting choice of word here.


It was deliberately chosen because it is apt.

Quote:

When I was working at AIR and Abbey Road I didn't see the holy Hinton methods being used. In fact, I don't recall the name Hinton ever being uttered in either of those facilities.


How would you know? Do you know everything about every single piece of equipment in those studios? Did you look underneath the consoles?
Have you ever used Total Recall?

Quote:

It's a wonder the recording industry has survived and sustained this long without the wisdom of Mr. Hinton. Less sarcastically, the my way or the highway method can't possibly be the only way.


Your attitude and false assertions are making you look a complete fool. I don't know who the fuck you are either, insulting me and hiding behind a false ID, but it doesn't stop me trying to help you. Carry on being a dick and I won't bother, it won't be my loss.

Quote:

I've read one of his methods in previous threads. Hinton takes several, what look to be, solid core cables in a group directly from the ps ground joined to a large aluminum bus bar with bolts and such. That's great and all, but the studio I am currently working for has a number of different reasons why a large permanent structure such as a modular synthesizer table is just not possible.


You didn't understand what you were looking at. The object is to tame a large unbalanced system that is built larger than it was ever designed for. The key point is to get the resistances between different signal commons much lower than the default paths via cable screens, banana "ground" leads and mains cables.

Recording studios use balanced equipment and so don't have this problem.


Quote:
I also don't wish to have a similar permanent structure at my home studio.


That's why I recommended Dinse connectors.

Quote:

Manufacturers also have a method. The dozens of Buchla rigs I have worked with in the past have a black banana jack for you to ground to other cabinets. Ground being other manufacturers word, not mine. It says it right here on my Buchla power supply "Noisy Ground", "Quiet Ground", etc. My Ciat pieces, Phenol, etc all have a black banana jack on the back and specify to connect it if you are going to be patching other gear to prevent damage. Don't kill the messanger for echoing terminology that is used by the people designing the gear.


Synthesizer manufacturers use the word "ground" in confusing and often incorrect ways.

The classic black banana method does not prevent damage, it is just a poor way of establishing a common that may not work well as systems are enlarged.

Quote:

I simply want to connect my Buchla cabinet to my other gear safely. Is that so wrong?


Not at all. First you have to make sure that each synthesizer is properly grounded/earthed as a Class I device, then you have to establish a signal common that does not conflict with that. It is possible to connect several synthesizers together in a way that makes the whole system less safe and degrades the noise floor, that is why I am being very specific.

Quote:

Lastly, Mr. Hinton really didn't answer my question. 'The points that should be connected are 0v of each system at the distribution'. Way to be super specific in your lecture of how wrong I apparently am for echoing what's written on a circuit board in front of my own two eyes and then being completely vague on the actual solution. The distribution as in case PS inlet? The wall power outlet? The breaker box? The distribution center down the street?


The internal power distribution inside each synthesizer--the buscards or whatever. NOT the PSUs which are separated from it by current carrying wires with voltage drops along them.
Kent
Don T wrote:
Kent wrote:
Don T wrote:
Prodigiously Prolific Pedantic Pontification


Please be more respectful. There was nothing in his post that wasn’t useful and this forum could benefit from less bile.


If you are looking for an apology, there will be none.

Giving a lengthy, supercilious dissertation in response to a simple question is just as off-putting as a sarcastic answer, if not more so. The man has done so on numerous occasions, and appears incapable of normal social discourse. Rather, he quite blatantly tries to prove his self-perceived superiority at almost every opportunity. Respect is a two-way street.

Ban me if you wish


Please consider interacting with others on this forum in a less attacking and passive-aggressive manner. That kind of discourse and seeking of conflict unnecessarily has been tolerated for an unnecessarily long time.
Don T
Kent wrote:
Don T wrote:
Kent wrote:
Don T wrote:
Prodigiously Prolific Pedantic Pontification


Please be more respectful. There was nothing in his post that wasn’t useful and this forum could benefit from less bile.


If you are looking for an apology, there will be none.

Giving a lengthy, supercilious dissertation in response to a simple question is just as off-putting as a sarcastic answer, if not more so. The man has done so on numerous occasions, and appears incapable of normal social discourse. Rather, he quite blatantly tries to prove his self-perceived superiority at almost every opportunity. Respect is a two-way street.

Ban me if you wish


Please consider interacting with others on this forum in a less attacking and passive-aggressive manner. That kind of discourse and seeking of conflict unnecessarily has been tolerated for an unnecessarily long time.


I stand by my words. I will say no more on the subject.
Don T
Graham Hinton wrote:
missingtwin wrote:
I was not aware of this type of jack:
Dinse Jacks


Nor was I a year ago. They are used almost exclusively for welding equipment connections and only sold through welding suppliers, or on eBay. I chose to use them because they are readily available worldwide and fit the requirements for a low resistance connection (which a banana jack does not). In this application we are concerned with I.R (voltage drops) rather than I^2.R (power heating).


cv_rave_on wrote:
Naive is an interesting choice of word here.


It was deliberately chosen because it is apt.

Quote:

When I was working at AIR and Abbey Road I didn't see the holy Hinton methods being used. In fact, I don't recall the name Hinton ever being uttered in either of those facilities.


How would you know? Do you know everything about every single piece of equipment in those studios? Did you look underneath the consoles?
Have you ever used Total Recall?

Quote:

It's a wonder the recording industry has survived and sustained this long without the wisdom of Mr. Hinton. Less sarcastically, the my way or the highway method can't possibly be the only way.


Your attitude and false assertions are making you look a complete fool. I don't know who the fuck you are either, insulting me and hiding behind a false ID, but it doesn't stop me trying to help you. Carry on being a dick and I won't bother, it won't be my loss.

Quote:

I've read one of his methods in previous threads. Hinton takes several, what look to be, solid core cables in a group directly from the ps ground joined to a large aluminum bus bar with bolts and such. That's great and all, but the studio I am currently working for has a number of different reasons why a large permanent structure such as a modular synthesizer table is just not possible.


You didn't understand what you were looking at. The object is to tame a large unbalanced system that is built larger than it was ever designed for. The key point is to get the resistances between different signal commons much lower than the default paths via cable screens, banana "ground" leads and mains cables.

Recording studios use balanced equipment and so don't have this problem.


Quote:
I also don't wish to have a similar permanent structure at my home studio.


That's why I recommended Dinse connectors.

Quote:

Manufacturers also have a method. The dozens of Buchla rigs I have worked with in the past have a black banana jack for you to ground to other cabinets. Ground being other manufacturers word, not mine. It says it right here on my Buchla power supply "Noisy Ground", "Quiet Ground", etc. My Ciat pieces, Phenol, etc all have a black banana jack on the back and specify to connect it if you are going to be patching other gear to prevent damage. Don't kill the messanger for echoing terminology that is used by the people designing the gear.


Synthesizer manufacturers use the word "ground" in confusing and often incorrect ways.

The classic black banana method does not prevent damage, it is just a poor way of establishing a common that may not work well as systems are enlarged.

Quote:

I simply want to connect my Buchla cabinet to my other gear safely. Is that so wrong?


Not at all. First you have to make sure that each synthesizer is properly grounded/earthed as a Class I device, then you have to establish a signal common that does not conflict with that. It is possible to connect several synthesizers together in a way that makes the whole system less safe and degrades the noise floor, that is why I am being very specific.

Quote:

Lastly, Mr. Hinton really didn't answer my question. 'The points that should be connected are 0v of each system at the distribution'. Way to be super specific in your lecture of how wrong I apparently am for echoing what's written on a circuit board in front of my own two eyes and then being completely vague on the actual solution. The distribution as in case PS inlet? The wall power outlet? The breaker box? The distribution center down the street?


The internal power distribution inside each synthesizer--the buscards or whatever. NOT the PSUs which are separated from it by current carrying wires with voltage drops along them.


And, Kent, his tone above is exactly why I stand by my words.
slow_riot
Who cares, really?

The Music Easel was shipped with a bug that BEMI never admitted to or fixed (the touchplate/EMI problem). That same problem plagues eurorack and you can forget technical support with any kind of clone. Quite a few wealthy CEOs that I don't see manning the pumps when things don't go to plan for the customer...

It seems like the industry has a big problem attracting competent engineers, even for money, let alone answering questions for free about another companies product. I tried doing it for a while but I don't have the kindness or patience to answer the same questions over and over again, and only 1/50 people ever says thanks (let alone nasty messages about the manner in which help is being offered without expectation). If you think there is a problem with the solutions that Graham offers then why not offer an alternative than vague personal attacks.
Kent
Forum members,

We are looking to improve the tone of the dialogue on this forum. Righteous indignation seldom is warranted nor does it end up portraying the outwardly aggrieved well. Long-held grudges that pop up out of context of a running thread only serve the vindictive individual’s inner child, to be frank. Nobody is really interested in it.

The team that is charged with the upkeep of this forum has decided there is a difference between how a forum with 20 active members and a forum with thousands of members can be administered. Being a member of this private forum is a privilege. It seems that this is forgotten or not understood in the first place.

Healthy disagreement has always been encouraged here. However, it is time to pull in the borders as to what the spirit of “healthy” will mean on this forum. This will challenge many.
“Healthy” will be what best serves to foster a vibrant and far-less-shitty forum. One that is more brotherly & sisterly than MMA with all of its pre-match verbal sparring. Feel free to disagree with a fellow member but do so respectfully. Point out where you feel they are incorrect and be prepared to back it up in a rigorous manner. However, the expressing of oneself must be dignified or at least pointing in the direction of one's better self.
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As such, DonT has been given a week’s time-out from the forum. We don’t wish to set further examples as it is an administrative hassle but shall do so where deemed to be instructive. We’re certain to see less of these actions in the coming months as ‘the new normal’ hopefully sets in. The admin team doesn’t wish to see people leave but isn’t squeamish about this either. There are thousands of good vibrant folk here. I'll emphasize that we aren't squeamish about people deciding that a change in tenor & expectation isn't for them and then they choose to not contribute here in a respectful manner that fits within the new guidelines (forthcoming) and tenor of the forum.

I'd like to point out that anyone that happens to collide with the admin staff and the 'as yet to be specified rules' shall not carry a scarlet letter (MW) around with them. These collisions will happen and everyone will make errors over the next month or two. I don't think that I've ever had any prior exchange with DonT; certainly nothing memorable.
Even though the admin team is composed of equally fallible humans, we are doing our best in the most dispassionate manner possible.

Please don’t inquire as to “Oh, but what about this guy/gal or that wording that is found to be personally objectionable”. You know what? “We got this” and we don’t want more self-interested PMs and such. They’re all pretty same-samey in being quests for loopholes, contradictions, hypocrisy on the part of the admin staff, etc. We’re still working through things and will make errors. Like you, we’re human and will course-correct each other as a team when deemed necessary.

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Oh, yes: Feel free to fucking swear. That’s fine.
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