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These kicks.. can anyone help?
MUFF WIGGLER Forum Index -> Production Techniques  
Author These kicks.. can anyone help?
sillyquestions?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6-Cyj126lUo&list=PLmHLldAdffsUiH24NF79 ljmsOJWn_5pjV&index=6

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ur6-2IszhA



Trying to achieve the same sort of similar kicks in my music.. can anyone help? I mean they're both pretty different examples but both very strong in their nature imo.

Ive been trying to compress with a slow attack and fast release, the results are proving promising but my kicks really do sound like shit. What should the threshold be sitting at? I mean each to their own.. just looking for a little advice. Im using the Drawmer 1960 for compression. My kicks seem to clip my monitors before they start sounding powerful enough whereas these two examples ive posted dont? Im using the Analog RYTM and DFAM for drums.

Cheers in advance for any inputs! we're not worthy
matthewjuran
Have you compared them with a spectrum analyzer?
sillyquestions?
matthewjuran wrote:
Have you compared them with a spectrum analyzer?


Not sure how I would go about that? Would I not need stems of the track to single out the kick? If theres another way please let me know..! hmmm.....
Panason
You could spend a lot of time synthesizing kicks... or you can just find what you want in a sample library!

I tend not to bother too much with the details of the kick until i have fleshed out a bassline or other low frequency sounds and the rest of the percussive elements in the track. Then I will go back to the kick and tune it, set the gains on everything and then apply eq and sidechain compression on the drums, the bass, or the master track to get the results I'm looking for.

On the Rytm you often have to work on the various voice settings quite a bit before the kick does what you want.
dj2sday
second sounds like an 808 kick. find one that has been processed/sampled and use the same sample for every kick. if you decide to make your own just know compressors are best used by ear. if you don't know how to use one, don't use it. just turn it up in the mix and mix the track around it. tune the decay to fit the track.
matthewjuran
sillyquestions? wrote:
matthewjuran wrote:
Have you compared them with a spectrum analyzer?


Not sure how I would go about that? Would I not need stems of the track to single out the kick? If theres another way please let me know..! hmmm.....

With a realtime view you might be able to visually isolate the kick frequencies and see if the range or pattern is different. Maybe mixing in another voice with more frequencies could help make it what you are looking for.

I don’t have gear to hear sub-bass so I can’t fully describe those kicks, but I hear something like a fast decay to 0 sustain enveloped VCA.
cv_rave_on
dj2sday wrote:
second sounds like an 808 kick. find one that has been processed/sampled and use the same sample for every kick. if you decide to make your own just know compressors are best used by ear. if you don't know how to use one, don't use it. just turn it up in the mix and mix the track around it. tune the decay to fit the track.


I agree it sounds like an 808 but with a sharper attack.

A lot of producers use several layers to kicks. Tons of vids on youtube. Here is one showing how. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TUrj-g_N7aI
Futuresound
Both of those have a ‘click’ or transient layered on top of a deeper, bigger sound. Layering is good.

No doubt they’ve also been EQ’d and compressed or shaped .to some degree
leeski
you should ask the people as the first guy's on facbook and the other dude is on bandcamp.
Why compress the kick? as it's dynamics shouldn't need cutting
Futuresound
leeski wrote:
you should ask the people as the first guy's on facbook and the other dude is on bandcamp.
Why compress the kick? as it's dynamics shouldn't need cutting


To shape it. You could do the same with envelopes or transient designer.

I’ve found that layered kicks can benefit from some dynamics control to get the layers to sit together properly.
leeski
Futuresound wrote:
leeski wrote:
you should ask the people as the first guy's on facbook and the other dude is on bandcamp.
Why compress the kick? as it's dynamics shouldn't need cutting


To shape it. You could do the same with envelopes or transient designer.

I’ve found that layered kicks can benefit from some dynamics control to get the layers to sit together properly.


I understand shaping stuff but if it makes it sound shit then why use it. if you want a Miami bass kick then i get it.
Those drum machines should do both kick basis easy from the tracks
Panason
It is better to start with a good kick, rather than trying to make a weak kick better with layers of samples, I'm sure of that.

I disapprove of clicky "suction cup" kick drums and most of the tracks that feature them. I'll take a nicely overdriven rude analog kick anytime over that overpolished bleepy stuff.
Futuresound
Panason wrote:
It is better to start with a good kick, rather than trying to make a weak kick better with layers of samples, I'm sure of that.

I disapprove of clicky "suction cup" kick drums and most of the tracks that feature them. I'll take a nicely overdriven rude analog kick anytime over that overpolished bleepy stuff.


but but but distortion is overused! cry
Panason
Just a touch of overdrive!
Even though brutality can be done in style, it is best used sparingly. You can't just smear that analog crunch on everything. If you want my approval, that is. razz
dubonaire
Sigha is using modular a lot now and who knows, he may be generating his kick in the rack.
gruebleengourd
leeski wrote:
s it sound shit then why use it. if you want a Miami bass kick then i get it.
Those drum machines should do both kick basis easy from the tracks


This statement isn't directed at you -- but I've noticed that compressors are very poorly understood by a lot of people, and it's a big part of why their mixes are less stellar than they could be.

Compressors don't have to flatten the whole signal. With a slow attack, you can just squash the body of longish kick so it neither disappears nor overpowers the other bass in your track.
Maybe you want to compress a drum and bass bus so that the levels are evened out.
So many reasons why one might want to compress a kick, or use compression of a group with a kick.
sillyquestions?
cheers for the insight guys. Quite helpful actually.

by the way, just out of curiosity.. if I can hear unwanted hissy noise coming from my kicks and going into my compressor is it likely that the noise is coming from my compressor or is it maybe becuase I need a sort of Pre-amp to reduce noise floor? I would think the fact it's not happening really when im not using the compressor tells me it may be a problem with that but actually would the compressor not just amplify noise floor? I could be wrong.

When my DFAM is filtered below 50hz the noise is very apparent and un-usable but as soon as I go above say 100 it's normally away and masked up. so f****** annoying and it's driving me

I probs should start another forum for this but not sure where to put it + we were sort of on the topic of compressors. Dead Banana seriously, i just don't get it very frustrating we're not worthy
Panason
Quote:
I can hear unwanted hissy noise coming from my kicks and going into my compressor is it likely that the noise is coming from my compressor

It depends on the compressor settings. I think it's possible you may have it set so that the compressor is pumping up the volume (and hence the noise) right after the end of the kick.
sillyquestions?
[/quote]
It depends on the compressor settings. I think it's possible you may have it set so that the compressor is pumping up the volume (and hence the noise) right after the end of the kick.[/quote]

Yeah i Suppose I do but it's the only real way to get the signal loud enough...
atvaries
the second track does sound a lot like an 808.

Try running a high pass on most if not all of your tracks that aren't contributing to the low end to avoid clashing frequencies.

Don't worry too much about compression on the kick right away. I'd focus on getting some of the frequencies between tracks balanced first.

If you spend a lot of time trying to make a kick sound great without direct relation to the rest of the instruments, you're setting yourself up for an uphill battle in some ways.

Once you have a bit more of a balance and you want to compress the kick some start with a quick attack around 5-10ms with a conservative ratio (4:1)
The release I find usually in the 200ms range works for my taste.

You're going to get more presence on the kick if you use it to trigger some sidechain compression on other tracks where applicable.

If you haven't already, check out Microtonic from Sonic Charge. Has a lot of great tools to build solid kick sounds.
slumberjack
those examples are mastered (and maybe mixed too) by a proessional, don't judge yourself with comparing to those. on both records the attack is very sharp and clicky. the punch of a kick is always the attack setting.
in both video the magic comes with modulation (maybe it's just the velocity).

modulating a kick on each step is a powerful thing. watching toby neumann's video of how to synthesize a kick with modules help every time you watch it.

i hope you asked on the elektron forum as well since i guess you'll find you answer there. the rytm is a perfect tool to make any kind of kickdrum with parameterlocks and badass sound or one like on the sigha track.
anomie
atvaries wrote:
Don't worry too much about compression on the kick right away. I'd focus on getting some of the frequencies between tracks balanced first.

If you spend a lot of time trying to make a kick sound great without direct relation to the rest of the instruments, you're setting yourself up for an uphill battle in some ways.

...

You're going to get more presence on the kick if you use it to trigger some sidechain compression on other tracks where applicable.


Wise words. Most of the time, compressing the kick is going to make it sound like crap, and most of the time what you actually need to do is compress/duck the stuff that's masking the kick attack or body. Learning sidechain compression is one of the essential skills of electronic or any bass heavy music. You don't always need to go as crazy as this though.
slumberjack
anomie wrote:
atvaries wrote:
Don't worry too much about compression on the kick right away. I'd focus on getting some of the frequencies between tracks balanced first.

If you spend a lot of time trying to make a kick sound great without direct relation to the rest of the instruments, you're setting yourself up for an uphill battle in some ways.

...

You're going to get more presence on the kick if you use it to trigger some sidechain compression on other tracks where applicable.


Wise words. Most of the time, compressing the kick is going to make it sound like crap, and most of the time what you actually need to do is compress/duck the stuff that's masking the kick attack or body. Learning sidechain compression is one of the essential skills of electronic or any bass heavy music. You don't always need to go as crazy as this though.


the best way to achieve this is imho to compose 'better' meaning to leave the kick out for a step where a (plucky) bassnote is taking place (or vice versa).
BailyDread
sidechain compression is overused IMO, and can be avoided with proper EQing.

one thing to be certain about: find the fundamental freq of your kick drum in a spectrum analyzer, and then notch out that corresponding freq w/ a pretty narrow Q in the other elements w/ bass freqs. if you want to get super in-depth, you could try a sidechained dynamic EQ to pull out this notch of freq's when the kick hits. this will avoid the "pumping" associated with full-band sidechain compression. for everything else not actively contributing to the low end, high pass w/ varying slopes etc at approx 160-300 hz to taste to leave plenty of room for the kick.

also check the phase of your kick drum. UAD IBP is great for this, but I think there's a free phase adjustment tool from airwindows too that does the same job (i've never tried it personally). all too often it's just a simple phase issue that's causing your kick to sound bad.

only after you've tried all of this should you reach for full-band parallel compression, IMO. nanners

the first track sounds like it has had some of the attack taken away, actually, like with a transient designer. or maybe it was synthesized, but it sounds like inventive compression and filtering to me.
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