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Buchla 100 clones: 158, 180, 140, 156, 106, etc. DEMOS
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Author Buchla 100 clones: 158, 180, 140, 156, 106, etc. DEMOS
lasesentaysiete
I am offering Buchla 100 DIY pcbs through my new web store linked to below. Sign up to the mailing list for pcb releases, etc:

https://www.lasesentaysiete.com/



[s]https://soundcloud.com/lasesentaysiete/144-190a[/s]

[s]https://soundcloud.com/lasesentaysiete/100-series-seq-2[/s]

These are new PCB layouts done using original Buchla schematics. I have substituted modern equivalents of obsolete transistors when necessary. No other changes were made, except for the "known" errors in some of the schematic drawings.

I am also doing panels for each pcb. Panel files will be in .fpd format.

The pcbs use 16mm pcb-mounted potentiometers in order to facilitate wiring.

BOM and Mouser cart will also be available for each module. Luckily, there are no exceedingly rare parts used in any of the layouts to date, and almost everything is included in the Mouser carts (not the potentiometers).

EDIT: Panel files are available via Dropbox.
I am not yet sure how I will go about sharing the panel files. My web host does not allow .fpd files to be linked to, so if anyone has any suggestions, please. Ideally, I would just leave the panel files up for anyone to use.
the bad producer
Woo, looks great!

(I had similar problem hosting files, when I zipped them the problem disappeared, maybe that works for you?)
cygmu
That’s exciting news.

Would a github space be ok for hosting files?
lasesentaysiete
I will link the panel files to dropbox. Seems to work. Any problems, let me know.
the bad producer
Have you a rough price for the 158 PCB? I always wanted a pink 100 series, and now I can do it!
lasesentaysiete
the bad producer
158a is 60€.

All 1u pcbs will be between 40€ and 60€. 2u stuff will be around 90€.

The prices should be on the individual pages. Shipping is included.
the bad producer
thumbs up

Will you be doing the full range?
lasesentaysiete
the bad producer
After these first 9, I will work on 144, 123, 107, 114, 175, 190. Not necessarily in that order, though.

My ultimate goal would be to get a 196 done so that the 185 becomes possible smile
J3RK
Nice!

Hmm... Blue-chla 100 system... Sounds like fun.
djthopa
Muy interesado!
nvining
Any exotic parts needed to build these - weird transistors, etc.?
lasesentaysiete
nvining
not yet! And mostly everything is available from Mouser.
djs
Very cool! Any thoughts on doing the Buchla 148 (Harmonic generator)? smile


Also- do these run on 15v/0v, or is there a 24v line required as well?
lasesentaysiete
djs
the schematic for the 148 is available, and I will probably have a go at it eventually. Who knows how it turns out, though smile

Everything so far is +15v/0v. +24v is needed for the 190, but that will come later.
hox3d
Interesting.

How hard would that be to adapt it to Serge specs/voltages ?
Hopefully just a few components that would need to be changed for 1V/oct tracking and +/-12V supply ?
the bad producer
hox3d wrote:
How hard would that be to adapt it to Serge specs/voltages ?


I guess it's a bit more than that as Buchla audio is at line level and the CV doesn't like negative V's IIRC... What do you think lasesentaysiete? Is that true on the 100 too?
I'd really like it if it was all bananas and fitted in with my LW stuff, but then I think I'd like it even if it had 1/4" jacks and black panels! (well, maybe not that zombie )
lasesentaysiete
the bad producer
yes, line level for audio.

CV range is different, too. Some of the 100 circuits produce and/or expect a 0-15v range.

For a Buchla osc in Serge, I would go for the 258J from J3rk.
the bad producer
Yeah, for those reasons I think I'd like to keep a little 100 system with your PCBs and some pink panels, I'd probably re-do them in LW format simply as I am set-up for that, but otherwise really looking forward to this (even though I've only known that for a couple of hours hihi )
cygmu
The original circuits involve a fair bit of fun with biasing because of the single supply arrangement, so it wouldn't really make too much sense to make simple adaptations for a dual supply -- you'd want to redo the biasing too. At this point you are out of clone territory and into homage. No bad thing, but a different thing.
julian
the bad producer wrote:
... and black panels! (well, maybe not that zombie )


I know this is off-topic, but black panels were exactly what i was considering whilst walking our hounds today!

I am starting to get a fair few of the buchla panel designs sorted, and was wondering if there would be a market for black panels in that format, rather than just the usual blue and silver.

I did the 208 in black and white, but im wondering about all the rest in the same styling? I mean black seems to be the new silver, when it comes to euro....
J3RK
the bad producer wrote:
Yeah, for those reasons I think I'd like to keep a little 100 system with your PCBs and some pink panels, I'd probably re-do them in LW format simply as I am set-up for that, but otherwise really looking forward to this (even though I've only known that for a couple of hours hihi )


I was thinking something similar. Maybe two of CLee's boats full of blue 100 modules. Or maybe even two 17" x 7" (Serge-style) panels divided by panel graphics in Hammond boats. (still with Buchla 100 style graphics though)
hox3d
cygmu wrote:
The original circuits involve a fair bit of fun with biasing because of the single supply arrangement, so it wouldn't really make too much sense to make simple adaptations for a dual supply -- you'd want to redo the biasing too. At this point you are out of clone territory and into homage. No bad thing, but a different thing.


I'm not feeling that confident enough with pure analog electronics, unfortunately. hihi
lasesentaysiete
A few questions about panels:

1. Would a pcb/panel option be preferable to just the pcb?
2. White or silver panels? Or the option to choose?

I know some of you have already answered indirectly, but the possibility of offering the pcb/panel combo exists. I am just trying to see if it is worthwhile, in general.
Starspawn
I would be up for PCB+Panels, white or silver both good options.
djthopa
I would order panel and pcbs. Silver panel nanners
edwinm
Panel and PCB for me, silver or white. Not keen on black Buchla, just seems wrong somehow
lasesentaysiete
Here is a little cross modulation patch using only the 158a.


[s]https://soundcloud.com/lasesentaysiete/158a-fm [/s]
Leverkusen
Wow, two Buchla 100 DIY options are coming at at the same time! I hope, both of them will evolve well, especially since this one is Europe based! Also the PCB prices sound fair to me.

Regarding the panels, I might purchase PCB/panel combos or do my own panels. It depends a bit on the relationship between price of the panel and personal laziness at that point in time. Generally I tend more to the comfortable side. But I would prefer white panels then.

An important criterion for me to dive into this would be the trust in long term availability and the opportunity to build up a system over time.

SlayerBadger!
lasesentaysiete
Leverkusen
Quote:
two Buchla 100 DIY options are coming at at the same time! I hope, both of them will evolve well, especially since this one is Europe based! Also the PCB prices sound fair to me.

Yes, the plan is to keep these available long term, and also to provide a reliable and dependable source of pcbs (i.e. shipping, restocking, etc. all done at reasonable rates).

Quote:
Regarding the panels, I might purchase PCB/panel combos or do my own panels. It depends a bit on the relationship between price of the panel and personal laziness at that point in time. Generally I tend more to the comfortable side. But I would prefer white panels then.

The panel situation is so far undecided. I can say that the white panel I had made for the 158a (photos soon smile) cost just under 50€. For me, the goal in offering a panel/pcb combo would be to keep the cost down as much as possible. It is easier, too, when purchasing.
fluxmonkey
you could zip the individual FPD files, if your host allows zip...

Quote:
EDIT: Panel files are available via Dropbox.
I am not yet sure how I will go about sharing the panel files. My web host does not allow .fpd files to be linked to, so if anyone has any suggestions, please. Ideally, I would just leave the panel files up for anyone to use.
fluxmonkey
no need to wait for the Ringmod, Noise, or BPF PCBs, since i've had them on offer for a couple of years: http://www.fluxmonkey.com/fluxmerch_buchla.htm
lasesentaysiete
Quote:
you could zip the individual FPD files, if your host allows zip...

It does not seem to offer .zip files, either seriously, i just don't get it
lasesentaysiete
Just a note:

While I have been able to "reverse engineer" the layouts and values for a few models whose schematics are not widely available, not having direct access to original modules limits me quite a bit.

Any help with photos or schematics heretofore unknown to me is greatly appreciated. Modules like 196, 195, 130, 114. Otherwise, I have got it pretty much covered.
lasesentaysiete
I finished the 192 layout today. I will be able to have this ready sooner than I originally thought smile

FYI, all layouts allow for the use of carbon composition resistors, in case the builder so chooses.

luchog
lasesentaysiete wrote:
The panel situation is so far undecided. I can say that the white panel I had made for the 158a (photos soon smile) cost just under 50€. For me, the goal in offering a panel/pcb combo would be to keep the cost down as much as possible. It is easier, too, when purchasing.


I would be very happy with a PCB/Panel combo, rather than just the PCB.

My personal preference on panel colour would be, in order, white, red, or silver; but I'd be perfectly happy with any of those, or even black.
lasesentaysiete
luchog wrote:

My personal preference on panel colour would be, in order, white, red, or silver; but I'd be perfectly happy with any of those, or even black.


I prefer white, too. There may end up be both white and silver available in the end. Red almost certainly will not make the cut, though smile

But, the panel files will be there for those who want to have a go at it themselves.
Leverkusen
If I got it right and a panel/PCB combo would be around 100,- I would be happy with the panel option. If non-white panels get more votes I would probably make my own panels at home and just go for PCBs. On the long run I can see me ordering 2 - 4 PCBs per quarter of the year. Oh, I really love the idea of building 100 system! spinning
lasesentaysiete
Leverkusen wrote:
If I got it right and a panel/PCB combo would be around 100,-

I will not speak for the panel manufacturers, but I would guess that to be a good estimate. The white panel I ordered from Schaeffer cost 50€.
djs
lasesentaysiete wrote:
I finished the 192 layout today.


Not familiar with the 192 circuit- are those vactrols, or separate LED/ photoresistors? If it's the second, do you leave them open, or create some sort of tube between them?
lasesentaysiete
djs wrote:


Not familiar with the 192 circuit- are those vactrols, or separate LED/ photoresistors? If it's the second, do you leave them open, or create some sort of tube between them?


Its like a proto vactrol made using a lamp and a photo resistor. The Buchla modules encased the 2 in a sort of heatshrink. The decay is much slower than a vactrol, though. I will make demos as soon as possible. It is a seldom heard filter.

Here is an original 192. You can see the 4 black tubes containing the lamp+photo resistor pairs. On the pcb render I posted above, L1 is he lamp and PR1 is the photo resistor (same goes for L2 + PR2).

lasesentaysiete
For anyone looking for a power supply solution for a 100 series only system, I plan on using the following:

https://www.mouser.es/ProductDetail/International-Power/IHB15-15?qs=sG AEpiMZZMtl%252b%2ft8G5TWgG6t7N41i4QNqqwiahIcSZA%3d

I will probably make some type of power distribution pcb to facilitate installation of modules. Nothing too special, though.

Anybody else looking to do a 100 only system in need of some type of power distribution setup? It would not use EDAC connectors.
KSS
Definitely prefer separate PCB. With panel optional.
lasesentaysiete
lasesentaysiete wrote:

I will probably make some type of power distribution pcb to facilitate installation of modules. Nothing too special, though.


Something like this could work--enough for a full cabinet (15 modules). It is laid out for 2-pin mta-156 connectors, and the tracks are 2mm thickness. Power entry to the distro board is via spade connectors.

djs
Any general thoughts (Mike Peake?) about the 106? I have a faux 106 made up with CGS04 mixer pcbs.. What does the 106 circuit do that a standard mixer doesn't do? I'm guessing it's all discrete, but is there some mojo that I don't know about?
lasesentaysiete
djs
I have not compared the 2 directly, but my guess is that the CGS04 would not sound the same because it has greater headroom. The 106 works within the 100 series line-level range to produce a slight drive when pushed. Buchla audio levels are lower than most other modular formats.

Also, the 106 is AC coupled and the CGS04 is not.
vladosh
i made a little demo of the 192 VCF ,built it from Mike Peake layout and included the resonance mod suggested by someone https://soundcloud.com/r25990127/buchla-400-vcf
lasesentaysiete
vladosh
nice demo. The filter sounds a little sluggish. I like it smile I did not know about the resonance mod. Any further info or opinion on it?
vladosh
i think you can implement that resonance mod if you haven't and without pot just to make it sound fatter i think the schematics can be found at emcloned ,i like the filter too ,have not tried the 194 yet so looking forward to that hyper
lasesentaysiete
Thanks! I found this:



Seems simple enough. I will try it and if it makes sense, I may add the option to the pcb layout.
snaper
Bookmarked your site, surely I'm in for a 158 and for the clock generator!
lasesentaysiete
snaper wrote:
Bookmarked your site, surely I'm in for a 158 and for the clock generator!

thumbs up
You can also sign up to the mailing list and receive notice whenever a new PCB becomes available.

The 158a is imminent. I take delivery of the test panel tomorrow, and the pcb order will not be far behind (~1 week). 140 and 180 should be available by mid-October.
lasesentaysiete
158a
(btw, I have it for sale to help fund this project: https://www.muffwiggler.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=2937304#2937304)

SoundPool
maybe someone can help set me straight on this since I am kinda buchla ignorant... so these 100 modules are different voltage ranges than the modern buchla? if you used them with other formats since they want positive voltages would something negative actually damage them like a CMOS chip, or just that it won't respond while something is in negative range? if I were to build these I am thinking going banana only because the whole two cable system drives me nuts and I like to use audio as modulation sources, but of course I don't want to set myself up for possibly damaging stuff.
fluxmonkey
it's complicated. this write-up from mark verbos should make things clear as.. um, can be: http://buchlatech.blogspot.com/2008/10/good-thing-about-standards-so-m any-to.html

SoundPool wrote:
maybe someone can help set me straight on this since I am kinda buchla ignorant... so these 100 modules are different voltage ranges than the modern buchla? if you used them with other formats since they want positive voltages would something negative actually damage them like a CMOS chip, or just that it won't respond while something is in negative range? if I were to build these I am thinking going banana only because the whole two cable system drives me nuts and I like to use audio as modulation sources, but of course I don't want to set myself up for possibly damaging stuff.
lasesentaysiete
SoundPool
The Verbos article mentioned above is a good start. There also exist a module called CVGT1 by Synovatron which deals with the bi-polar vs uni-polar issue. It remains complicated, though, as fluxmonkey says.
SoundPool
fluxmonkey wrote:
it's complicated. this write-up from mark verbos should make things clear as.. um, can be: http://buchlatech.blogspot.com/2008/10/good-thing-about-standards-so-m any-to.html

SoundPool wrote:
maybe someone can help set me straight on this since I am kinda buchla ignorant... so these 100 modules are different voltage ranges than the modern buchla? if you used them with other formats since they want positive voltages would something negative actually damage them like a CMOS chip, or just that it won't respond while something is in negative range? if I were to build these I am thinking going banana only because the whole two cable system drives me nuts and I like to use audio as modulation sources, but of course I don't want to set myself up for possibly damaging stuff.


thanks- serves as a great reminder why I stayed away from Buchla all these years (in addition to the fact that I couldn't afford it).

but these PCBs are 15v and gnd only- is that because the 24v was just for the lamps which are replaced here with something else? vactrols?
lasesentaysiete
SoundPool wrote:


but these PCBs are 15v and gnd only- is that because the 24v was just for the lamps which are replaced here with something else? vactrols?


+24 is not just the lamps. Certain modules--e.g. 190, 165--use it as well.
Peake
The 190 dual reverb uses +24V wired directly to the two audio transformers. Those transformers typically are screwed down to the top inside of the large wooden 100 series cases with a terminal strip next to them to aid wiring. (The reverb tanks are screwed down to the inside of the cabinet sides.)

It's not hard to get the 100s to be compatible with the later 200 series' 10V range (versus its natural 15V). 68K CV input resistors on something such as the 110 Gates can be changed to 47K so it fully opens at 10V instead of 15.

The oscillator CV range however is something I haven't checked and should be modded in case you're using a 10V CV range system. What I did on the ones I sell was add a unity-gain opamp CV mixer courtesy of Santa, Ken Stone, to sum together both the front panel CV pot and the external CV ins. Normal operation is of course simply a switch selecting either external CV signals OR the internal Frequency pot. It's nice to use them together without a 156 and the benefit is to after calibrating them to the original CV scaling, remove the 100K input resistors for the CV path and install 100K multiturn trimmers which then allow trimming in a range of 1.2 or 1V/Octave, =generally=, which doesn't mean more than an octave of tracking or very well at all within that range.

The 156 is usually used for this sort of process, of course, and was later merged into his 200 series oscillators.
lasesentaysiete
here is a photo showing a little of what Peake is talking about. The 190 is the second module from the left in the top row. The module on the far right with the transformers sticking out is the 170, I think.

lasesentaysiete
I have added the 158a to Modulargrid with a provisional (shite) photo, just in case anyone would like to use it to plan. I will take a proper photo soon.
Jarno
lasesentaysiete wrote:
158a


Tidy looking layout, nice work!
lasesentaysiete
Jarno wrote:

Tidy looking layout, nice work!


thanks thumbs up

The idea is to facilitate the building process.
lasesentaysiete
Building the 180 today:

tronotape
These look awesome, can't wait! Definitely interested in the 123 and 114 when it comes around.
guitarfool
lasesentaysiete wrote:
Thanks! I found this:



Seems simple enough. I will try it and if it makes sense, I may add the option to the pcb layout.


Ha, I did that. It worked quite well for me, but IIRC there were others that didn't get it to work. eek!
I did artwork to silkscreen a panel for it, but haven't had the screens made yet.
[img][/img]
lasesentaysiete
guitarfool
my apologies for not crediting you when I posted that photo d'oh!
I will try the res mod and report back how it turns out.
lasesentaysiete
I was playing around and testing the 180 today. Everything looks good! The panels arrive on Monday.

Tomorrow I will get the 140 pcbs, so it will be possible to test the 180 and 140 together.

SlightlyNasty
I like seeing more of these neat and tidy 4U modules appearing! These PCBs look great lasesentaysiete!
lasesentaysiete
SlightlyNasty wrote:
I like seeing more of these neat and tidy 4U modules appearing! These PCBs look great lasesentaysiete!

Neat and tidy is a main goal of mine with these layouts, so thanks thumbs up It really makes for quicker assembly if everything is laid out with the builder in mind, and luckily the Buchla format allows for fairly "ergonomic" layouts of these circuits.
lasesentaysiete
180 finished today!

lasesentaysiete
158a PCBs are now available in the web store:

https://www.lasesentaysiete.com/product-page/158a-dual-sine-sawtooth-g enerator-pcb

Sign up for the newsletter to receive these types of notices directly via email.

julian
Nice to see some user friendly pricing! : )
jonen
What are the dimensions of the pcb? is it meant for a 4u panel or also possible to adopt to a 3u panel, like this one.
lasesentaysiete
jonen
dimensions are 155x101 mm. It is laid out for Buchla format (4u) and is not compatible with 3u, unfortunately.
lasesentaysiete
julian wrote:
Nice to see some user friendly pricing! : )


thumbs up
jaidee
Question for Julian (aka "The Beast"): any chance you will do production runs of panels for these PCBs as a competitive alternative to Schaeffer??
lasesentaysiete
jaidee
I don't want to tell tales out of school, but Julian and I have talked about panels in the past. I am pretty sure he is willing to cut panels for this project.
julian
I have just got the "ok" from Daniel to cut some panels for this job.


Lead time with me is generally pretty minimal, so i reckon mid to late week, next week for these.

They will be silk screen printed using 2 part catalysed ink onto brushed then anodised metal.

(plenty of previous examples here - https://www.muffwiggler.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=208050 )

Thank you
Julian
lasesentaysiete
Exciting news!

PCB/Panel sets will soon be available at Modular Addict in the US. So far, they plan to stock the following sets:

158
180
140
156
106

The plan is to eventually make all the models I offer available as pcb/panel sets. The panels are white with blue silkscreen, like 180 one shown below.

djs
lasesentaysiete wrote:
PCB/Panel sets will soon be available at Modular Addict in the US. So far, they plan to stock the following sets:


Great news! Especially with Christmas coming up smile
yan6
Will you continue to publish the remaining fpd panel files. I think I fancy the green myself
lasesentaysiete
yan6 wrote:
Will you continue to publish the remaining fpd panel files. I think I fancy the green myself

yes, definitely thumbs up
breadman
Wow, will be refreshing Modular Addict for new listings even more often now! twisted
djs
breadman wrote:
Wow, will be refreshing Modular Addict for new listings even more often now! twisted


I just wish they'd sell Buchla blank panels too....
julian
djs wrote:


I just wish they'd sell Buchla blank panels too....



http://thebeast.co.uk/?product=buchla-blank-panel-single-space
Leverkusen
I just found the 180 kit being in stock at modular addict while it seems to have never got to your shop - will this be an american project now or will I still be able to purchase just PCB's from you in the future.

Purchasing from the US is a bit more of a hassle and I would be bound to buy their panels too, which probably would not fit the one I will have to do for the 158 PCB I already have here...
lasesentaysiete
Leverkusen wrote:
will this be an american project now or will I still be able to purchase just PCB's from you in the future.



yes, you will be able to purchase the 180 pcb directly from me. I am awaiting the arrival of the pcbs. It should not be long.
diophantine
These look awesome! Price is great, and BOMs look nicely done.

Are the blue/white panels done by FPE from the FPD files? I looked at the one FPD file available on your site & saw that it had a white flood set, but not sure where the actual print color is saved (I've only ever used infill with them in the past).

Since I have a few Fluxmonkey PCBs here, I'm curious if I could get my own panel made for those. And if ModularAddict is ever out & you still have PCBs, I'd like to know that I can still get panels...
lasesentaysiete
diophantine
Quote:
Are the blue/white panels done by FPE from the FPD files? I looked at the one FPD file available on your site & saw that it had a white flood set, but not sure where the actual print color is saved (I've only ever used infill with them in the past).


The panels at Modular Addict are not by FPD, although both come from the same initial Illustrator layout I made. The print colour on the FPD is saved in the image file, I think.

Quote:
Since I have a few Fluxmonkey PCBs here, I'm curious if I could get my own panel made for those. And if ModularAddict is ever out & you still have PCBs, I'd like to know that I can still get panels...


I plan to make the panel files available. I figured .fpd files would be easiest.
fluxmonkey
lasesentaysiete wrote:
diophantine
Quote:
Since I have a few Fluxmonkey PCBs here, I'm curious if I could get my own panel made for those. And if ModularAddict is ever out & you still have PCBs, I'd like to know that I can still get panels...


I plan to make the panel files available. I figured .fpd files would be easiest.


FPD files for my PCBs are already available on my (Fluxmonkey.com) site
Leverkusen
lasesentaysiete wrote:
Leverkusen wrote:
will this be an american project now or will I still be able to purchase just PCB's from you in the future.



yes, you will be able to purchase the 180 pcb directly from me. I am awaiting the arrival of the pcbs. It should not be long.


Great, thank you for pointing this out. It is not that I am really in a hurry. I seem to be a little afraid of changes within the project before I have built at least a usable system.

Will the panel files be adjustable, e.g. changing colors?
sawersky
Looking forward!
lasesentaysiete
140 to go along with the 180.

diophantine
lasesentaysiete wrote:
The panels at Modular Addict are not by FPD, although both come from the same initial Illustrator layout I made. The print colour on the FPD is saved in the image file, I think.

Thanks - yeah, it looks like the colors in FPD come from the '158a.ai' file, though I can't export/edit that Illustrator file. I may call FPE tomorrow and ask if I can specify a color in the ordering notes.

fluxmonkey wrote:
FPD files for my PCBs are already available on my (Fluxmonkey.com) site

Yup! I have these files... was purely thinking in case there are any OCD-triggering minor differences. hihi (I can obviously set it to flood white/print engravings to get close.)
lasesentaysiete
diophantine
I am currently thinking of a more comprehensive way to make the panel files available and editable, if desired. Maybe pdf, I do not know. I would like it to be straightforward, either way.
julian
Panels now available to purchase -

http://thebeast.co.uk/?product=buchla-style-158-panel

Excuse the rubbish photo - its 1am here right now!




These are screen printed with 2 part catalysed ink onto brushed and anodised aluminium. The ink is pantone matched (buchla blue, in case its not obvious in the photo!) and heat cured.
ST.P
@lasesentaysiete:

can you provide any infos about calibration for the 158?

thanks!
lasesentaysiete
ST.P
I will write a basic guide for the trimmers and add it to the BOM doc tomorrow. Keep in mind that it will not do any type of v/oct, though. It is just about adjusting wave shapes and setting min/max frequency.
Karl71
lasesentaysiete wrote:
140 to go along with the 180.


Wowsers. Just saw this.whats the eta for this one? 158a pcbs were well recieved ,thank you. Tidy and clear.
lasesentaysiete
140 & 180 pcbs are on their way to me now and will be in stock in my web shop next week sometime. I will send out a newsletter. The following week, I will have the 156 & 106, as well. Below is a photo of the first 5 completed models.

(the 156 panel graphic has been corrected)

ST.P
i think there is a little mistake in the 158a BOM:

330k for R40, R41 BOM: 279-RR01J150KTB (=150K)

330k is the the right value, as shown in the schematic?!

is 1/4 Watt ok or better 1/2W?
lasesentaysiete
Yes, 330k is the right value. BOM corrected. Thank you.

ST.P wrote:
i think there is a little mistake in the 158a BOM:

330k for R40, R41 BOM: 279-RR01J150KTB (=150K)

330k is the the right value, as shown in the schematic?!

is 1/4 Watt ok or better 1/2W?


Also, I will post the 158 trimming steps asap.
Leverkusen
lasesentaysiete wrote:
140 & 180 pcbs are on their way to me now and will be in stock in my web shop next week sometime. I will send out a newsletter. The following week, I will have the 156 & 106, as well. Below is a photo of the first 5 completed models.

(the 156 panel graphic has been corrected)



Great to see such a fast progress! Looking forward to hear them play some tones...

screaming goo yo Dalek SlayerBadger!
breadman
Thank you for making these! Hoping to get my hands on some soon... hihi
lasesentaysiete
180 & 140 pcbs now available in the web shop:https://www.lasesentaysiete.com/

lasesentaysiete
Here is a basic trimming guide for the 158a. I have used this method in a few builds now, and it has given me consistent results.

Before you begin, make sure the frequency control switch is set to "int".

1. Set the waveshape pot fully CCW (sine).

2. With the frequency pot set ~halfway, adjust R17 for cleanest sine*.

3. With the frequency fully CCW (lowest), adjust R4 for lowest clean sine (5hz as per panel).

4. With the frequency fully CW (high), adjust R5 for highest clean sine. If you adjust the frequency too high, the amplitude of the wave will begin to drop significantly. The ideal frequency is usually just before the amplitude drop. NB, contrary to the panel graphics, the hight frequency will almost certainly not be 20khz.

5. Set waveshape to saw and check for a consistent saw shape throughout the entire frequency range. You may need to adjust the maximum frequency to avoid the saw transforming into a sine and losing amplitude at its highest setting.

*If you are unable to adjust R17 for a clean sine, change R42, R43, to a higher value. 2k5 should be OK. Below is a common sine wave distortion that, if unable to be trimmed out via R17, will require you to change R42, R43 values.

ST.P
Thanks, for the description!

btw. - is the color (blue) of the panels on the picture above the same as in the provided 158.fpd file?

in the panel designer software (preview), the color seems to be much more dark ...

i hope, that all panel files will have the same colors hmmm.....
lasesentaysiete
ST.P
the panels available from Modular Addict are blue silkscreen on white background. The files available on my website are dark green silkscreen. I will also post the PDF of each panel graphic so that you may change the colour to whichever you like.
yan6
Any ETA on the 140 and 180 panel files. I just ordered them today and would like to put together an order with the previous 158's
lasesentaysiete
I will get the 140 and 180 files up today.
lasesentaysiete
I finished the 110 today. I will get some comprehensive demos of the mini-system together this weekend.

guitarfool
Wow, moving right along here. I got the 180 and 158 panels and PCBs a couple of days ago, and just ordered the 106, 140 & 156 from Modular Addict. w00t
lasesentaysiete
guitarfool
Great!

My logic with the modules is to work up to a complete system. The 5 already available, combined with the next 5 in line (110, 111, 194, 160, 192) comprise a nice 10 panel system. From that point, the addition of the 144, 123, 190, 175, 112, etc. will make for a competent 15 panel rig. After all, I am building one for myself!
diophantine
lasesentaysiete wrote:
+24 is not just the lamps. Certain modules--e.g. 190, 165--use it as well.

I've never seen a 165 schematic, but can it be modified to run on +15V? Just thinking that leaving the 190 as the only thing needing +24V would be nice...

Anyhow (against my better financial judgement) I just ordered 8 PCB/panel sets from ModularAddict. w00t
lasesentaysiete
Quote:
I've never seen a 165 schematic, but can it be modified to run on +15V? Just thinking that leaving the 190 as the only thing needing +24V would be nice...


I am not sure if it can run on only 15v because of the relays.

There is also the 102 stereo locator, 148 Harmonic Generator, 191 Sharp Cutoff Filter that require 24v. I have a distribution board laid out for both 15 and 24v. It uses Molex connectors, not EDAC.

Quote:
I just ordered 8 PCB/panel sets from ModularAddict. w00t

w00t Guinness ftw!
diophantine
lasesentaysiete wrote:
Quote:
I've never seen a 165 schematic, but can it be modified to run on +15V? Just thinking that leaving the 190 as the only thing needing +24V would be nice...


I am not sure if it can run on only 15v because of the relays.

Ah, yes! I forgot that this was the module that uses the relays...

lasesentaysiete wrote:
There is also the 102 stereo locator, 148 Harmonic Generator, 191 Sharp Cutoff Filter that require 24v. I have a distribution board laid out for both 15 and 24v. It uses Molex connectors, not EDAC.

I'd definitely be interested in this...
lasesentaysiete
diophantine
I have a distro board pcb on order. I will use a Bel Power psu for 15v (Mouser # 784-HB15-1.5-AG). The idea, now, is to find a 24v psu that is not overkill smile
edwinm
Just finished calibrating my 158! It's a lovely sounding thing! Now to max out my credit card on some more of your modules...
lasesentaysiete
edwinm wrote:
Just finished calibrating my 158! It's a lovely sounding thing!


Great! And yes, the 158 is mental sounding!

I have the pcb and panel ready for the 144, too. It should be done in a few weeks,
ST.P
... one 158 is waiting for my first panel waah

it is nice to see this project growing so fast w00t
jonny_w
This is so incredible, thank you for working so hard on this!! Any plans on doing the 123 sequencer or the 112/113/114 controllers? I'd be so awesome to have a complete 100 series case.
lasesentaysiete
jonny_w wrote:
Any plans on doing the 123 sequencer or the 112/113/114 controllers? I'd be so awesome to have a complete 100 series case.


I have already started work on the 123. It will be available in January. It is part of the next group of 5 modules I am woking on (along with the 144, 190, 175, 107).

The 112 will be part of the last group, and should be ready by February. The total number of modules I currently have schematics and/or lay outs for is 19. There is enough flexibility there to put together a very competent 15 module system, at least.

Below is a list of modules either already finished, or on the "to do" list, in the order (more or less) that they will be completed. There may be more available, too, but that depends upon if/when I can get schematics.

158
140
180
156
106
110
111
192
160
194

144
123
175
190
107

112
102
170
171
jonny_w
Awesome! I remember reading before you were hoping to get the 185 completed too - is that still somewhere on the horizon? This clip features the 185 in all it's glory: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e-Ha7IFy23k SlayerBadger!
lasesentaysiete
jonny_w
The 185 is definitely possible, but I am still missing info on the 196. The 185 is combination 2 x 196, a 111, and a 106.

You can kind of see the stacked pcbs in this photo (which is the same 185 used in the video you posted):
berenie
Hello,

Quick question! as i could not find the awnser anywhere else. Is there any logical spacing between hole distances in the panels? From the front panel files you and fluxmonkey host i found that spacing differs quite a bit between modules.

i tried to determin some kind of a grid but without succes. if there's even such a thing! hmmm.....

Thanks allot thumbs up
lasesentaysiete
berenie
Which holes are you referring to?

I use a standard that I have based--as best I could--on the original panel layouts. The logic is continuity, both with the graphics (horizontal lines) and the spacing of potentiometers and inputs/outputs. The spacing is uniform on my layouts. Certain modules have a larger vertical space between the bottom row of pots and the middle row (e.g. 158, 144, 140) but most have symmetrical vertical spacing.
hox3d
I often see modules being cloned, but never the controllers?
Do you have any plans for these (113, 112)?
lasesentaysiete
hox3d
yes for the 112. I will also try the 114. I made a list on the previous page of modules I will do.

Most likely not the 113. I am not sure what it does smile
Leverkusen
112 and 114 would be great! Also I would love to see the 146 as a bigger sequencer to combine it with the smaller 123. I am planning to build two of the classic 5 x 5 cases to play them as a self contained instrument.

I am so grateful that this happening now!

love
sines
Excited to dive into this after I complete my 200r modules.

While we're talking panels, is there a good US source for Buchla size blanks? I made the mistake of ordering a bunch of raw aluminum panels cut to Buchla size with the wrong thickness.. they're basically recycle fodder at this point. confused
luchog
lasesentaysiete wrote:
hox3d
yes for the 112. I will also try the 114. I made a list on the previous page of modules I will do.

Most likely not the 113. I am not sure what it does smile


Not sure how helpful this will be, but it looks like there's an old thread on it here: https://www.muffwiggler.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=139473

Looks like there're at least two known to still exist, and possibly some info on the owners in that thread.
lasesentaysiete
Leverkusen wrote:
112 and 114 would be great! Also I would love to see the 146 as a bigger sequencer to combine it with the smaller 123. I am planning to build two of the classic 5 x 5 cases to play them as a self contained instrument.

I am so grateful that this happening now!

love


I will do the 146 after the 123. The circuits are basically the same.

I am starting with a 3x5 unit case, which is, to some degree, dictating the order of the modules I work on. 2 5x5 cases would be incredible, though!
lasesentaysiete
luchog wrote:
lasesentaysiete wrote:
hox3d
yes for the 112. I will also try the 114. I made a list on the previous page of modules I will do.

Most likely not the 113. I am not sure what it does smile


Not sure how helpful this will be, but it looks like there's an old thread on it here: https://www.muffwiggler.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=139473

Looks like there're at least two known to still exist, and possibly some info on the owners in that thread.


I have gone through that thread a few times now smile
berenie
lasesentaysiete wrote:
berenie
Which holes are you referring to?

I use a standard that I have based--as best I could--on the original panel layouts. The logic is continuity, both with the graphics (horizontal lines) and the spacing of potentiometers and inputs/outputs. The spacing is uniform on my layouts. Certain modules have a larger vertical space between the bottom row of pots and the middle row (e.g. 158, 144, 140) but most have symmetrical vertical spacing.


What i was looking for was some sort of a round number between pots and jacks and if there was ever some sort of logic behind it. hmmm..... but i think i found it in your files. thanks allot. thumbs up
diophantine
I believe the 113 was basically just four "half-114"s, each with a single decay control per section & no trigger outputs. Specifically designed for the equally-rare 4x5 VC matrix mixer... I forget it's number, but is is probably the same circuts as in the 107. Personally I don't see much point in having the 113 without the other.

Unrelated... Does anyone know if the original modules used regular or chickenhead knobs for the 123/140/146 rotary switches? I've seen both used, even within the same system.
lasesentaysiete
diophantine wrote:
I believe the 113 was basically just four "half-114"s, each with a single decay control per section & no trigger outputs. Specifically designed for the equally-rare 4x5 VC matrix mixer... I forget it's number, but is is probably the same circuts as in the 107. Personally I don't see much point in having the 113 without the other.

Unrelated... Does anyone know if the original modules used regular or chickenhead knobs for the 123/140/146 rotary switches? I've seen both used, even within the same system.


I do not remember enough of what I had read in the 113 thread to comment on the circuit. In any case, the 107 is basically 5x 110 and a 106.

Re: the rotary knobs: I believe both were used on original modules. Just like the push-button on the 140, you see both illuminated and non-illuminated on originals.

O! Where is Rick Smith? cry
cygmu
lasesentaysiete wrote:

O! Where is Rick Smith? cry


Didn't he quit MW because he couldn't stand all the Buchla cloning?
lasesentaysiete
cygmu wrote:
lasesentaysiete wrote:

O! Where is Rick Smith? cry


Didn't he quit MW because he couldn't stand all the Buchla cloning?


correct! My attempt at irony smile

edit: (I do not want to speak for Rick, so do not quote me on this).
cygmu
Oh dear, and now I've made it all feeble by spelling it out. I'm sorry.
lasesentaysiete
No sweat, it was nothing special to begin with.
lasesentaysiete
I finished the 111 Ring Mod today.

My new PSU arrives tomorrow. I will finally be able to install and use all modules together. The long promised demos will follow thumbs up

lasesentaysiete
I completed the 192 today. It works OK, but I need to change some things, maybe a few resistor values. I am also going to try a different lamp in hopes to get the frequency pot to respond better.

Here is the partial system of all modules I have completed so far. Tomorrow I will do the 160 and the 194. And demos!



Here is the power distribution pcb I made (EDAC for scale). I have installed in in the cabinet above, along with a Power One psu. So far, so good thumbs up


J3RK
This is all looking quite amazing! applause
lasesentaysiete
ok. just some junk that came out of the patch shown above. No edits or effects or anything other than the synth smile

Some proper demos of actual modules, etc., are on their way.

[s]https://soundcloud.com/lasesentaysiete/100-series-patch[/s]
lasesentaysiete
J3RK wrote:
This is all looking quite amazing! applause


we're not worthy w00t
diophantine
Your system is looking great! Got my sets from ModularAddict over the weekend; can't wait to place my Mouser order & then start building. I assume you built the case yourself?

Where did you get your TiniJax cables? Or are they just 3.5mm cables?

Will be in for 4 of those distro boards!
Karl71
Fantastic. Im going to need a distro or two.
thetwlo
does an amount of each sale go to the Buchla family? These are advertised as "Buchla" and clearly copied from them, I know you can't protect a circuit. But these are advertised as "Buchla" curious how that is legal, not saying it isn't. Does anyone own the "Buchla" name?
lasesentaysiete
thetwlo
Quote:
does an amount of each sale go to the Buchla family?

no

Quote:
These are advertised as "Buchla" and clearly copied from them

By "advertised as Buchla", do you mean the thread title? I doubt anyone believes these are made by the Buchla Company, BUT, I have clarified the thread title. And of course they are copied, that is the point!
lasesentaysiete
diophantine wrote:
I assume you built the case yourself?

Where did you get your TiniJax cables? Or are they just 3.5mm cables?

Will be in for 4 of those distro boards!


I built the case, yes.

I use the 3.5mm cables from Modular addict.

Distro pcbs will be available soon, along with 110-111-160-192-194 pcbs.

I hope to get the 144 done before Santa comes, too.
lasesentaysiete
A few demos of specific things!

[s]https://soundcloud.com/lasesentaysiete/110-to-158-fm[/s]

[s]https://soundcloud.com/lasesentaysiete/180-attack-decay-times[/s]

[s]https://soundcloud.com/lasesentaysiete/192-modulation[/s]

[s]https://soundcloud.com/lasesentaysiete/111-194a[/s]

[s]https://soundcloud.com/lasesentaysiete/111-sub-bass-effect[/s]
Leverkusen
Interesting sounds! I am looking forward to start digging into these. Listening to the second example I wondered if the 180 has a strange voltage behaviour at the end of attack and the beginning of the decay? Like an inverse plateau during the sustain / duration phase.
lasesentaysiete
Leverkusen
The 180 can be re-triggered during the decay. There is at least one example in the clip of re-triggering. I think what you mean is that between the attack and sustain--or sustain and decay-- there is a sort of distortion. I will look at this tomorrow on the scope.
lasesentaysiete
Leverkusen wrote:
Listening to the second example I wondered if the 180 has a strange voltage behaviour at the end of attack and the beginning of the decay? Like an inverse plateau during the sustain / duration phase.


I managed to figure out what happened here. First, I patched the synth trying to replicate the behaviour heard at the end of the soundcloud clip. I could not, no matter which setting I used, external or internal duration time on the 180. Then I remembered that I had been sending the 110 output back into the 158 FM input last night when I was recording these demos. So, I re-patched that, turned up the FM amount on the 158, and the behaviour returned!

Conclusion: it is the result of a feedback patch that sends one output of the 110 gate back into the 158 that is feeding that gate. It is not "normal" 180 behaviour smile
Karl71
Just finished a week of trouble shooting a158a only to find a faulty trimmer, with great patience and support from Dan I must add. Holy smoke this thing smokes. Want more. It's peanut butter jelly time!
lasesentaysiete
Karl71 wrote:
Just finished a week of trouble shooting a158a only to find a faulty trimmer, with great patience and support from Dan I must add. Holy smoke this thing smokes. Want more. It's peanut butter jelly time!


Cheers Karl. Enjoy!


Also, just to let you all know that the Dual Voltage Controlled Gate Model 110 pcbs are now available in the web shop.
lasesentaysiete
I finished the 144 yesterday It's peanut butter jelly time!

I made a demo of the 144 & 192

[s]https://soundcloud.com/lasesentaysiete/144-192a[/s]

diophantine
Nice! That combo sounds really great.
diophantine
I just finished populating the resistors on six of my eight PCBs. (I messed up and only bought parts for one of my 180 PCBs; should have the rest of the parts tomorrow or Wednesday.) The boards were really easy to work with!

I did find a few small issues with the BOMs and Mouser carts, regarding resistors:

140
BOM/PCB has 14x 4k7; Mouser cart has only 13x.
BOM/PCB has 19x 22k; Mouser cart has 22x.
BOM/PCB has 4x 47k; Mouser cart has 5x.
BOM/PCB has 0x 150k; Mouser cart has 2x.
BOM/Mouser cart has 9x 10k; PCB only has 8x - R69 is a B10k pot.

156
BOM/PCB has 8x 10k; Mouser cart has 9x.

I think I have a big bag of 1% 4k7s so I will just grab a couple from there to complete my builds. I haven't taken a look at the caps yet, but hope to do so tomorrow.

Would it be possible to publish a PDF of the PCB silkscreen? That would be really helpful for debugging & calibrating.

Also - for future PCBs - would it be possible to indicate the R## for trimpots outside of their footprint? This would be great for calibration.

Can't wait to finish these & power them up!
lasesentaysiete
diophantine
thanks for pointing out those discrepancies. I will get the BOMs sorted. PDFs of the silkscreens will go up within the next day or two thumbs up
diophantine
lasesentaysiete
No worries! Happy to help out.

Have just been going through the caps.

140
BOM/PCB has 1x 4n7 tantalum; Mouser cart has 2x.
The 4n7 film caps are listed twice in the Mouser cart: Vishay .0047uF (in stock) and Kemet 4700pF (backordered). (The 158a cart only has the backordered Kemet ones.)

Also... what's the deal with the 910pF caps? These are GIANT (and expensive)!


I realize that these are the only 910pF fillm caps available (and the 158a BOM says they should be film), but they are quite awkward in the 5mm spaced capacitor footprints, and would be awful in the 2.5mm spaced ones. These are also listed in the 140 BOM (PCB has 2.5mm spacing) and 180 BOM (PCB has 5mm spacing).

Will MLCCs work fine in the 140 and 180? (I haven't looked at the schematics yet.) And would 1n caps work?

I notice that the 158a BOM says that 1n film caps are OK... do you know what the difference would be if I were to replace them?
lasesentaysiete
diophantine
my apologies for those big 910pf. Like you said, they are the only ones available. I used them on the 180, but for my other builds, I either already had some from another source, or I used 1nf value. I will most likely just take those right out of the BOM. For the 140, I used some smd 910pf. In any case, go ahead with 1nf. I cannot recall off the top of my head when/where the type is most critical, but I imagine that c0g is fine almost anywhere in these.

I will have a closer look in the coming days and clear some of this up!
diophantine
lasesentaysiete
Awesome, thank you! I will see what spare parts I have...

For transistor matching, the 106 BOM says to match for gain, so I matched my pairs based on hFE. Is that correct?

How should the pairs be matched for the 158a? Vbe, or hFE?


And regarding your power distro boards... are they still planned for MTA-156? What wire gauge do you recommend?

EDIT: Oh, and did you end up socketing your 2N5020s?
diophantine
158a
BOM/PCB has 6x 4n7 1k trimpot; Mouser cart only has 3x.
lasesentaysiete
diophantine wrote:

For transistor matching, the 106 BOM says to match for gain, so I matched my pairs based on hFE. Is that correct?

How should the pairs be matched for the 158a? Vbe, or hFE?


Hfe (gain) for the 106. This is just to assure that all 3 amplifier circuits output +/- the same levels.

For the 158--and anywhere else that calls for a "matched pair"--Vbe is the important one.

diophantine wrote:

And regarding your power distro boards... are they still planned for MTA-156? What wire gauge do you recommend?


Datasheet for the 3.96mm (0.156) connectors I use says 18-24 AWG.

diophantine wrote:

EDIT: Oh, and did you end up socketing your 2N5020s?


Yes, everytime. Interestingly, I have a 100% success rate using J175 to date, in both 158 and 144.
diophantine
Perfect, thanks! That's what I figured for the transistor matching, but didn't want to assume. Now I can safely solder them in! thumbs up

What type of socket did you use? I was thinking of using a 2x2 header and removing one of the metal inserts... or 3 single-pin headers, though the legs don't stay in them very well (I'd have to solder them later.) The legs on the 2N5020s are round (since they are TO-18, rather than TO-92). I may just bend the legs (to provide tension), insert them, and test the module before soldering... I've done this with success in the past.
lasesentaysiete
I usually use these to socket transistors because actual transistor sockets are way too expensive:



You will have to break off individual sockets. If the black plastic breaks away, just make sure that the metal sockets do not come into contact with one another once installed. These sockets offer good grip on the transistor legs (to-18 and to-92). Leave the transistor legs long enough so that they may be fully inserted for best grip.
diophantine
Ok, great! I've used them in the past for different things, and pulled out a bag of them this morning. Will try it out when I get home! Thanks!
J3RK
diophantine wrote:
lasesentaysiete
No worries! Happy to help out.

Have just been going through the caps.

140
BOM/PCB has 1x 4n7 tantalum; Mouser cart has 2x.
The 4n7 film caps are listed twice in the Mouser cart: Vishay .0047uF (in stock) and Kemet 4700pF (backordered). (The 158a cart only has the backordered Kemet ones.)

Also... what's the deal with the 910pF caps? These are GIANT (and expensive)!


I realize that these are the only 910pF fillm caps available (and the 158a BOM says they should be film), but they are quite awkward in the 5mm spaced capacitor footprints, and would be awful in the 2.5mm spaced ones. These are also listed in the 140 BOM (PCB has 2.5mm spacing) and 180 BOM (PCB has 5mm spacing).

Will MLCCs work fine in the 140 and 180? (I haven't looked at the schematics yet.) And would 1n caps work?

I notice that the 158a BOM says that 1n film caps are OK... do you know what the difference would be if I were to replace them?


Just a quick note. You can get 910pF caps in polystyrene for a reasonable price, and they're "normal" size. Wima polypropylene might also be a more reasonable size.
diophantine
J3RK wrote:
Just a quick note. You can get 910pF caps in polystyrene for a reasonable price, and they're "normal" size. Wima polypropylene might also be a more reasonable size.

I had a vague recollection of this (and I swear I've bought some in the past), but the only 910pF through-hole caps currently listed at Mouser are these big ones, some Mica ones, a ceramic disc one (w/10mm lead spacing), and some MLCCs with ~1 year lead time.

DigiKey has none. Newark only has Mica. Small Bear has none.
J3RK
Weird. Yeah, I think the old 291 clone had 910pF listed for one of the caps, which is why I had them. I think I started using 1nF there though, so it's been years since I've tried to buy 910pF.

Edit: Yep, they're gone.
diophantine
Everything is built... just waiting for some of this wire to be delivered, so that I only have to wire power to the modules once... fingers crossed it comes tomorrow & that I don't have to wait until Monday.

I'm planning to do +15V on 22awg wire (red MTA connectors) and +24V on 20awg wire (yellow MTA connectors).

I ended up using those big 910pF caps on the 158a and 180 modules (figured I had them, so might as well use them), and 1n C0G caps on the 140.

lasesentaysiete
Do you know when your power distro boards will be available?
In looking at the photos again the power inlet pads look kinda small, would 18awg wire (from the PSUs) fit them? Or perhaps they are intended for terminal blocks or something? (That would be really nice!)

And any idea when ModularAddict will have the next ones available? Don't worry, my wallet says that there is no rush! hihi
lasesentaysiete
diophantine wrote:


lasesentaysiete
Do you know when your power distro boards will be available?
In looking at the photos again the power inlet pads look kinda small, would 18awg wire (from the PSUs) fit them? Or perhaps they are intended for terminal blocks or something? (That would be really nice!)


I am not sure the distro boards, yet. Much depends on the 24v section. The first ones I made have the 24 line on a separate header from the 15v line. I think a new version using 4-pin header combining 24v with 15v lines is what they will end up being. Makes for less wires, especially on the 190 with all the reverb tank sends and returns.

Oh, the inlet holes are for those spade connectors found on PSUs.

diophantine wrote:

And any idea when ModularAddict will have the next ones available? Don't worry, my wallet says that there is no rush! hihi


110, 111, 160, 192, 194, 144 sets should be available at Modular Addict within a week or two. I am currently finishing up the 175 and 123, and also waiting on transformers in order to test the 190 reverb.
diophantine
Great, thanks for the info!

For some odd reason the mailman delivered my wire today (Sunday), so I now have a working 106, 140, 156, 158a, and two 180s! (Nice that they can be powered just fine from my Blacet PSUs!)

Everything seems fine to my ears (the 158a sounds wonderful!), but I will just check everything in the scope & calibrate them before I finish my other 158a and 140. (They are all assembled, I am just waiting to solder the pots & switches.)

I ended up not socketing the 2N5020s. Seems it wasn't a problem.

lasesentaysiete - Thanks for all of your effort on this project! we're not worthy Everything went together very smoothly, and they were fun builds with solid documentation. (That explains why I wanted to build these right away, as opposed to having them go into my ever-growing backlog!) SlayerBadger!

One final suggestion for future PCBs (in addition to my previous comment about having trimpot numbers being outside of their footprints): when banana jack outputs are multed, could you provide either two pads on the PCB or a pad in-line with the jacks (like on the 140s 'all pulses') as opposed to having the pad between the two jacks (like on the 156 and 180)? I know, it is a super minor thing, but it makes the wiring so much prettier and minimizes my OCD. hihi

Looking forward to the future modules, and figuring out a cabinet for this system! (Actually I'm planning for two cabinets, but please don't tell my wife...)
lasesentaysiete
diophantine
glad to hear that your builds are coming along nicely! In the end, it is all about the 158 smile
I actually built another 158 today that required practically no waveform trimming. Sometimes it happens.

I have made some notes regarding minor details about the layouts--such as the pad placement you mentioned--and will keep trying to make these builds as easy as possible.

Thanks for letting us know how you are making out. Keep it coming!
lasesentaysiete
Quick question for anyone interested:

There exist 2 versions of the 112 controller. One is 4hp with 12 keys, and the other 5hp with 16 keys.

Would there be a preference for one over the other?
guitarfool
My preference would probably be BOTH Play Him Off, Keyboard Cat.
diophantine
lasesentaysiete wrote:
In the end, it is all about the 158 smile

Haha, well, I must confess that I'm just as excited about the 144! The AM + FM has always seemed like it'll be loads of fun.

My 158 sounds pretty spot-on as far as the sine wave goes, but we'll see when I hook it up to the scope.

Again, thanks so much! If there's anything that I can do to help promote this project, or to help you get schematics, please don't hesitate to let me know.
diophantine
I assume (i.e. really hope!!) you're doing a 114?

In that case I'd definitely prefer a 16-key version of the 112.
Karl71
16 key would be optimal.
lasesentaysiete
OK, I guess a 5hp 112 makes more sense. I might end up trying to figure out a way that the pcb may be used for a 4hp version, too.

diophantine wrote:
I assume (i.e. really hope!!) you're doing a 114?


The 114 is on the priority list, but unfortunately I still do not have a schematic for it. (see below)

diophantine wrote:
Again, thanks so much! If there's anything that I can do to help promote this project, or to help you get schematics, please don't hesitate to let me know.


Any help finding schematics is greatly appreciated. Paying for them--either cash or some other form of compensation--only seems fair to me.

There does seem to exist a willingness on the part of some to willfully withhold information regarding the construction of these modules. I do not subscribe to this idea. I will publish all the schematics for this project.
diophantine
Is this sine wave OK/typical?

This is with the trimmer set full CCW.

The other oscillator on this 158a has a similar (but smaller) distortion at the top, but is pretty smooth at the bottom. (That one also has the trimmer full CCW.)
lasesentaysiete
diophantine
It could be better. Try changing r42 & r43 to 2k or 2k5 if you are not happy with how it sounds. Changing the R values should allow you to trim out that little notch, but in any case, you will not arrive at a pure sine.

If you are happy with the sound, just leave it. It is not that far off, really.

Edit: I seem to remember seeing that you installed C8, correct? Try removing it before changing those R values.
diophantine
Thanks! I'll try removing/disabling C8 first.

Do you have calibration instructions for the 140? The panel indicates that 10Hz is the highest frequency, but I know some 140s (and the 100 series manual) indicate that it is 200Hz, which seems more accurate based on playing around with the trimmers.

156 calibration: based on the manual the inverter should output 14.5V when the input is 0V, so I calibrated it accordingly.
lasesentaysiete
for the 140, just adjust the trimmers to match minimum and maximum times on the panel. There is some degree of interaction between the two trimmers, so you may have to go back and forth with them. I was unable raise the cycle rate beyond ~600hz without also raising the minimum above 10hz (i.e the panel indicates "correct" range).

NB the 156 outputs something like 10v if there is no voltage present at the input. So, if it is set to external but you have no voltages plugged in, there will still be voltage at the output.
diophantine
158a - removing C8 had no effect. I replaced R42/R43 on one of them with 2k2 resistors and it is definitely improved - just a tiny little dip at the top when I zoom in on the scope. (The trimmer is still FCCW.) If I find any 2k5 resistors around here I'll try them out. Should I continue to leave C8 out?

156 - yes, I noticed that with the inputs, so I connected the input to 0V (ground).

140 - perhaps I am misunderstanding the times on the panel? It looks like FCCW is .1 sec (10Hz), the middle is 1 sec (1Hz), and FCW is 10 sec (.1Hz). Is this incorrect? (I must confess that I don't understand the 'tempo - 600' notation at all....)

Thanks!
lasesentaysiete
diophantine wrote:
Should I continue to leave C8 out?


C8 can be left out.

diophantine wrote:
140 - perhaps I am misunderstanding the times on the panel? It looks like FCCW is .1 sec (10Hz), the middle is 1 sec (1Hz), and FCW is 10 sec (.1Hz). Is this incorrect? (I must confess that I don't understand the 'tempo - 600' notation at all....)

Thanks!


".1 sec" and "10 seconds" indicates the time between pulses. "Tempo 600" and "tempo 6" is Hz.
guitarfool
I think "Tempo" is in terms of Beats-per-minute (BPM), so 60 BPM = 1 Hz...
diophantine
158a update!

On my 2nd one (which I hadn't tested yet) I put 1k resistors in series with the existing 1k5 resistors (for 2k5). These sines look beautiful! One is fully CCW, the other I had to back off from FCCW a bit to get it perfect.

On the 1st one I then added 330R resistors in series with the previously installed 2k2 resistors (for 2k53). These sines now look almost as good as the other oscillator. I'd probably say they were perfect if I hadn't seen the sines on the other one. ;-)

Perhaps it would be worth updating the BOM to use 2k5 for this? Although, my J201s could have slightly different characteristics - they're from a bag I've had for years... can't remember where I got them.

Now trying to do the range calibration...
diophantine
Calibrated the VCO range. I know the trimming instructions indicate that "the highest frequency will almost certainly not be 20khz", but what sort of max frequency are people getting?

After a lot of back & forth trimming between the two trimpots, the two oscillators on one of mine both range from ~4.8Hz to ~4.2kHz. On the other, both oscillators have a similar low frequency (~4.8Hz), but the highest frequencies are ~4.6kHz and ~5.1kHz.

I notice that the instructions also state "If you adjust the frequency too high, the amplitude of the wave will begin to drop significantly." One interesting thing is that right before this amplitude drop is a quick increase in amplitude. I tried to trim mine to a point just at the beginning of the increase in amplitude.

guitarfool wrote:
I think "Tempo" is in terms of Beats-per-minute (BPM), so 60 BPM = 1 Hz...

Ah, that makes sense...

So I think this circuit may be for the newer(?) "large-knob" 140, with the stated range of .005s (200Hz) to 20s, as opposed to the original(?) one with the .1s (10Hz) to 10s range. I didn't try too hard, but I wasn't able to trim mine down to anything less than ~120Hz when the knob was set to the fastest speed. But I was able to calibrate them to a range of 200Hz to 25 seconds.
cygmu
diophantine wrote:


Perhaps it would be worth updating the BOM to use 2k5 for this? Although, my J201s could have slightly different characteristics - they're from a bag I've had for years... can't remember where I got them.


Yes, the sine shape is a function of both those resistors and the characteristics of the JFETs, which vary wildly between devices. On the original schematics Buchla indicated that the JFETs should be "selected" i.e. not just any one from a batch -- the Idss should be in a particular range. Mike Peake has written something on this selection process:
http://ebolatone.blogspot.com/2011/03/vintage-parts-in-j3rks-258ish-cl one.html

Tweaking those resistor values seems to be another way to amend the shaper behaviour, useful when the Idss is not in the recommended range. I thought I understood this but I don't.

There's a little bit about this shaper circuit on Tim Stinchcombe's excellent page:
http://www.timstinchcombe.co.uk/index.php?pge=trisin
diophantine
cygmu
Interesting reading; thank you! I hadn't seen this before, and (I think) helps better understand what I was seeing.
lasesentaysiete
a few new additions and the cabinet is almost full!

diophantine
w00t w00t
Lookin' awesome!! Can't wait!
guitarfool
You should have built 2 cabinets!

I had planned on a 5 x 5 cabinet (or 2) and hoped it stopped at that.
lasesentaysiete
The Sowter transformers needed for the 190 reverb were dispatched today. Hopefully I can get the module assembled next week sometime.
lasesentaysiete
guitarfool wrote:
You should have built 2 cabinets!

I had planned on a 5 x 5 cabinet (or 2) and hoped it stopped at that.


I plan on making another cabinet, for sure. I have not yet decided whether it will be the same size or a 2x5, though. Unfortunately, I do not have the room to lay a 2x5 flat on the table under the 3x5 (traditional style), so it will either go beside or on top of the existing 3x5.
djs
lasesentaysiete wrote:
a few new additions and the cabinet is almost full!


picture is useless without sound samples SlayerBadger!

Looks awesome!
luchog
Looks good, I like the red panels especially.
lasesentaysiete
thanks for the complements!

the "red" panels are actually orange seriously, i just don't get it
yan6
Any ETA on the 156 fps file Mr. Green
lasesentaysiete
yan6 wrote:
Any ETA on the 156 fps file Mr. Green

oops, I will post it now d'oh!
diophantine
Perhaps it got lost in the other discussions, so I'll ask again re: 158 frequency range:

diophantine wrote:
Calibrated the VCO range. I know the trimming instructions indicate that "the highest frequency will almost certainly not be 20khz", but what sort of max frequency are people getting?

After a lot of back & forth trimming between the two trimpots, the two oscillators on one of mine both range from ~4.8Hz to ~4.2kHz. On the other, both oscillators have a similar low frequency (~4.8Hz), but the highest frequencies are ~4.6kHz and ~5.1kHz.
lasesentaysiete
diophantine wrote:
Perhaps it got lost in the other discussions, so I'll ask again re: 158 frequency range:


The best I have got out of a 158 is ~10khz, but it is usually lower.
diophantine
lasesentaysiete wrote:
diophantine wrote:
Perhaps it got lost in the other discussions, so I'll ask again re: 158 frequency range:


The best I have got out of a 158 is ~10khz, but it is usually lower.

Good to know, thanks! I assume yours are calibrated to ~5Hz at full CCW?

I may try to coax a little more frequency range out of them later, but I'm glad to know I'm probably not far off from you (maybe an octave).
ST.P
my first build ends at ~8Khz

btw. any ETA for the 110 BOM and Panel file?
lasesentaysiete
ST.P wrote:
any ETA for the 110 BOM and Panel file?


I will post those today. Sorry for the delay.
diophantine
ST.P wrote:
my first build ends at ~8Khz


Thanks! Did you use J175 or 2N5020?
ST.P
i am using 2N5020
diophantine
Three of my VCOs now have a range of 10Hz to 7.0-7.2kHz. The other is going from 14Hz to 7kHz; might tweak that one a bit to get them all equal.

When I was trimming before I was going back & forth between the two trimmers, since changing R5 changes the min freq... I'd go back and adjust R4 to 5Hz again, and then go back to R5... Also, I think I was being too picky about what the saw wave looked like at the high frequency.

Edit: now they're all 10Hz (+/- .5Hz) to 7.1kHz (+/- .1kHz). Yay...
lasesentaysiete
diophantine wrote:
I think I was being too picky about what the saw wave looked like at the high frequency.


the saw definitely starts to lose its shape as you approach maximum frequency. I set maximum frequency somewhere between the original saw shape and the compressed sine shape it transforms into once you get too high.
lasesentaysiete
2 demos featuring 144, 192, 175, 123, 140, 106.

[s]https://soundcloud.com/lasesentaysiete/100-series-seq-2[/s]

[s]https://soundcloud.com/lasesentaysiete/100-series-seq-1[/s]
Leverkusen
I love those sounds - the filter is so nice!

Now I really need to free some time for building a first case and some modules to fill it soon!

Very excited to go on this journey and eventually play with lovely instrument.

2019 will be a year of great experiences and odd sounds.

Thank you for doing all this!

we're not worthy
ST.P
I am very excited about the 144 eek!

... nice demos, especially seq 2
yan6
There seems to be an error in the 110 panel file. I submitted my order today to front panel express and was contacted regarding a small black line that will get printed. Would you be able to correct it and reload the file to your site.

[/img]
diophantine
lasesentaysiete wrote:
the saw definitely starts to lose its shape as you approach maximum frequency. I set maximum frequency somewhere between the original saw shape and the compressed sine shape it transforms into once you get too high.

Yeah, the shape changes quite a bit over the possible range of the oscillator!

Originally I was trimming for something like this at max freq.:


I eventually settled on something more like this:


Totally happy with that. At 7kHz you're probably not really caring if it is actually a saw or not. And there's still just as many interesting timbres along the range of the sine-saw pot.
diophantine
yan6 - out of curiousity, have you had other of the FPDs made into panels by Front Panel Express, and if so, any chance you could post a pic? I'm curious how they look compared to the ModularAddict panels.
lasesentaysiete
yan6 wrote:
There seems to be an error in the 110 panel file. I submitted my order today to front panel express and was contacted regarding a small black line that will get printed. Would you be able to correct it and reload the file to your site.
]


Sorry about that. I have uploaded a corrected version.
lasesentaysiete
diophantine wrote:


I eventually settled on something more like this:


Totally happy with that. At 7kHz you're probably not really caring if it is actually a saw or not. And there's still just as many interesting timbres along the range of the sine-saw pot.


I agree. I leave it about there, too.
yan6
Sometime next week I'll post the front panels, I made a batch order for all of the so far release modules.
diophantine
FYI - the six new ones are up at Modular Addict! Hopefully I'll have them + my Mouser order by the weekend...
lasesentaysiete
diophantine wrote:
FYI - the six new ones are up at Modular Addict! Hopefully I'll have them + my Mouser order by the weekend...


Chugging Beers

I will have the pcbs in my web shop soon, too.
lasesentaysiete
Who would be OK with mounting the transformers for the 190 reverb off-board? This is how it was originally done--and it is probably best practice to keep them away from active circuitry--but it is definitely the more difficult option as far as case compatibility goes.
diophantine
I think I would be OK with it.

Perhaps a daughterboard could be made to hold the transformers & manage the connection to the reverb tanks. You could then have corresponding mounting holes on the 190 PCB so people could choose to attach the board directly to the module, or mount it somewhere in their case.
diophantine
Also, I assume that it uses the Sowter "1427 Transistor output transformer. Replacement for Triad TY-30X", like Peake has used? Are these the only rare transformers in the 100 system?

(Just noticed that Peake has his transformers mounted directly on the PCB... curious if he or anyone else using his design wishes they'd mounted them in the cabinet?)
lasesentaysiete
diophantine

yes, Sowter 1427a. Find them at the bottom of this page:

http://www.sowter.co.uk/acatalog/E_A_Sowter_Ltd_VARIOUS_7.html

Lead times can be a little long. I waited ~1 month for mine.

I think the daughter board idea is a good one.
fluxmonkey
lasesentaysiete wrote:
Who would be OK with mounting the transformers for the 190 reverb off-board? This is how it was originally done--and it is probably best practice to keep them away from active circuitry--but it is definitely the more difficult option as far as case compatibility goes.



off-board seems to match the original schematic. really makes sense, since it's a direction connection to the tank itself.
lasesentaysiete
fluxmonkey wrote:

off-board seems to match the original schematic. really makes sense, since it's a direction connection to the tank itself.


I am definitely mounting them off board in my case, but I have lots of room.

And on that note, I just ran the 190 through the test rig, and then tried it with just a 144. Believe it or not, it sounds like a spring reverb, and a damn good one at that!

Demo recordings to come as soon as I get it properly installed.

Testing:

lasesentaysiete
It is important to mention that Mike Peake did most of the leg work as far as 190 diy knowledge and info. His blog was a huge help in getting the 190 running.
Leverkusen
Just wanted to say that I would not mind mounting the transformers off-board. It seems to be a good idea and my rack will have enough room anyway.

Nice to see that a first stage of an complete instrument is near with the 123 and the 190 - I am ready to place my next order as soon as the modules appear at your shop... It's peanut butter jelly time!
diophantine
Thanks, I ordered a pair of those transformers this morning.

The main reason I suggested a daughterboard is just that I probably won't have a case ready before you've released the module & I've built it. But if there's nothing through-hole related to the transformers, an actual daughterboard would probably be overkill.

I'd be fine to just DIY something PCB-sized to mount them behind the module (just holes for the standoffs & the transformer mounting holes). I'd also be happy set it up as something that others could have laser-cut for them at Ponoko.

What reverb tanks are you using, btw?
lasesentaysiete
diophantine wrote:

What reverb tanks are you using, btw?


Accutronics 4AB3C1A

I got mine from Banzai.
lasesentaysiete
144 & 190, with help from 192:

[s]https://soundcloud.com/lasesentaysiete/144-190a[/s]
lasesentaysiete
123 controlling 144 & 110 at audio rates:

[s]https://soundcloud.com/lasesentaysiete/123-audio-rate[/s]
diophantine
Any tips/pics re: the lamps & LDRs on the 192?
Should I use heat-shrink tubing, or have you found something better?
Should the lamp & LDR be touching, or how close should they be?

(Aside from that, my boards are all done except for the transistors...)

Also, any calibration instructions for the 110/111/144?

Thanks!
lasesentaysiete
diophantine wrote:
Any tips/pics re: the lamps & LDRs on the 192?
Should I use heat-shrink tubing, or have you found something better?
Should the lamp & LDR be touching, or how close should they be?


Heat shrink is ideal. You just have to make sure that the LDR is not exposed to external light. Put them as close together as possible.


diophantine wrote:
Also, any calibration instructions for the 110/111/144?

Thanks!


110: adjust the trimmers for quickest response time without any clicking noise. I used the 140 the sent pulses to the 110 for this. It works best if there is no audio input on the 110.

144:

1. Adjust R18 so that oscillation is within audible range. The circuit can oscillate at super high frequencies, or not at all, so you may have to adjust R18 quite a bit.

2. R4 sets the low frequency and R10 sets the high frequency. These two trimmers interact to some degree, so you may have to go back and forth some. Re-adjust R18 if you cannot get reasonable lowest/highest frequencies.

3. R36 sets the amplitude and also affects the AM. I set mine for the lowest amplitude (~1.8v pk-pk in my case) to try and match the 158 as closely as possible. AM still responds well.

I was able to get a a range of 5hz to 15khz on these. They can oscillate at higher frequencies, but you lose low end extension.

I will get the 111 instructions up soon.
diophantine
Thanks!

I will try to finish the 192 and 144s this evening. Got the 110/111/160/194 all finished and working yesterday (minus trimming).

BTW, two minor BOM issues:
111: 'Q3' is listed under 2N3906, this should read 'Q8'. (Q3 is part of a 2N3904 matched pair.)
160: Q10 is missing from BOM, should be 2N3904. (BOM/cart quantity should be 7, not 6.)
diophantine
Reverb sample sounds really great!

Ordered tanks from Amplified Parts; they seem to have the best price here in the US ($58 with shipping): https://www.amplifiedparts.com/products/reverb-tank-accutronics-4ab3c1 a

Sowter says ~4 weeks before the transformers ship. I mentioned to them that they may be getting some more orders for them, as a PCB for the circuit was going to be released soon. So maybe they'll be stocked up by the time the PCBs are ready.
lasesentaysiete
thanks for your help diophantine

I made some slight changes to the 192 BOM after getting hold of an original 192 schematic (I had intially used the schematic found in the 410 module--which worked fine).

Anyone building this module will want to wait 1-2 days until I report back regarding the changes.

Sorry for the mix up.
diophantine
No problem; thanks!

I'll wait before I finish the 192, then. That will give me something to do later in the week. ;-)
diophantine
One of my 144s is up and running! w00t

Unfortunately Mouser screwed up and my bag of DPDTs had one DPDT and one SPDT in it... very frustrating So the other will have to wait...

Anyhow, it sounds great and should be lots of fun! It isn't so good at cross-modulation compared to the 158 (i.e. A->B + B->A, either FM or AM - probably due to the waveshape), but just modulating one half of the 144 from the other half is fantastic.

Thanks again for another awesome module!
lasesentaysiete
fun with the 196:

lasesentaysiete
The LDRs in the Mouser cart are OK for the 192.

Here is another 144 demo:

[s]https://soundcloud.com/lasesentaysiete/144-bells[/s]
diophantine
The 196 plots look nice!

Given that the 196 is not a "phaser effect" as we know it, does anyone know what the typical usage was in the Buchla 100?

I know that one catalogue description was apparently (per fluxmonkey's site):
Quote:
Shifts phase of input signal such that a 90 degrees (+/- 5 degrees) phase relationship between the two outputs is maintained from 5 cps to 20 kc. Used in conjunction with ring modulators for frequency shifting or for exotic visual displays.


Did this module go out of favor with the introduction of the 185 Frequency Shifter (which used two 196 PCBs along with a dual RM)? The module is conspicuously absent from the CBS-era manual.

I wonder if it is interesting to FM (or AM) a pair of oscillators with the 0° and 90° versions of a signal....
lasesentaysiete
diophantine wrote:
The 196 plots look nice!



I used the method described in the Bode Frequency Shifter service manual, which worked well:

"Set the variable resistors for 90º phase shift at the frequency corresponding to that pair of stages [...] and adjust for 90º phase shift by displaying the two board outputs on X and Y axes and adjusting for [a] perfectly round circle."

The specified frequencies for the 196 are difficult to make out on the schematic, but I believe them to be 5hz, 100hz, 1khz, 5khz. I could almost get a "perfectly round circle" sweeping the entire range of a 158 sine.

The 196 should produce a more typical phaser effect by mixing the 2 outputs with a 106, or controlling the mix with a 110 & 106, etc. This follows the 100 style of not integrating separate functions into single modules.
Leverkusen
Isn't the phaser effect achieved by a constantly varying phase offset of two audio signals?

I would expect the sound of a static combfilter with varying effect amount by, even CV-controlled, mixing both outputs of the 196. I thought it was just an extension for the ring modulator to achieve frequency shifting.

The 144 bells above do sound lovely!
lasesentaysiete
Leverkusen wrote:
Isn't the phaser effect achieved by a constantly varying phase offset of two audio signals?

I would expect the sound of a static combfilter with varying effect amount by, even CV-controlled, mixing both outputs of the 196. I thought it was just an extension for the ring modulator to achieve frequency shifting.



I am not sure about how all phasers work, but I was going by an explanation of the Serge phaser:

Quote:
Note that the raw 360 degree, 720 degree, and 1080 degree do not provide the classic phasing sound. They must be mixed with the incoming signal for this to occur.


The 196 has a 90º phase difference between the two outputs, but I imagined it would be similar.

EDIT: I guess I will have to make a demo later!

The 144 sound above was done using primarily FM, AM, a 192, and a 190 reverb.
ST.P
got some panels and finished the 180
- but there is one odd thing:

all outputs give 1,7V (like an offset) even nothing is plugged into
the triggerinputs.

did you guys have had similar experiences or an idea what could cause this?

thanks
diophantine
I just checked both of mine, and they are the same as yours. (Edit: all between 1.72V and 1.84V.)

They do fully close the 110 gate.
lasesentaysiete
I remember there being some kind of small voltage present when I initially built and tested the 180. It was of no consequence in actual use, however.

I have one installed right now that has 0.5v on A and 1v on B.
ST.P
OK - thanks for the infos, guys!
lasesentaysiete
Leverkusen
Nice - I am very curios how it does sound? Frequency shifting is my favorite sound - external audio as much as with oscillator tunes. SlayerBadger!

And how about the availability of the latest PCB's from your shop? I see them popping up as kits at modularaddict but would prefer purchasing from europe and without panels.
lasesentaysiete
Leverkusen
I will record a demo of the 185 tomorrow.

PCBs will be here at the end of next week.
diophantine
Can't wait to hear it... and then build it!
lasesentaysiete
not sure if it is sounding as it should. It is difficult to tell, and calibration is complex.

First is "sum" output, then "difference".

[s]https://soundcloud.com/lasesentaysiete/185-test-1[/s]
hox3d
Couldn't you add control on it?
I mean, all this wasted blank panel space...

Yeah, I'm really surprised about a FS without any control.
But I know it would not be "genuine" razz
Leverkusen
lasesentaysiete wrote:
not sure if it is sounding as it should. It is difficult to tell, and calibration is complex.

First is "sum" output, then "difference".

[s]https://soundcloud.com/lasesentaysiete/185-test-1[/s]


I am not totally sure what you are doing there but it sounds as if frequencies get shifted. It should be one of the sidebands each without the original signals.

I think the version of frequency shifting that is based on just using two ring modulators and a quadrature oscillator works best with sines. Maybe that could be a starting point to see it works like it should and the calibration is set to suppress most of the unwanted parts.

I would not expect it to sound like a Bode but the demo is already showing interesting colors. I am getting more and more excited over the vision of a 100 system to explore and play on...

hox3d wrote:
Couldn't you add control on it?
I mean, all this wasted blank panel space...

Yeah, I'm really surprised about a FS without any control.
But I know it would not be "genuine" razz


This is a very down to the core design. You control the shifting by the frequency of the modulating oscillator, which would otherwise be a part of the Frequency shifter and had a control knob on the panel.


I'd love to hear this one with human speech and drum recordings...
guitarfool
lasesentaysiete wrote:
not sure if it is sounding as it should. It is difficult to tell, and calibration is complex.

First is "sum" output, then "difference".

[s]https://soundcloud.com/lasesentaysiete/185-test-1[/s]


Can't tell, but it doesn't sound right. You should not hear tones sweeping up AND down in the same output, but it's hard to tell unless both inputs are sine waves. There should only be one tone at each output. Both ring modulators have to be nulled out first - no output when only one input. Then the mixers for the sum and difference have to be adjusted so only one sideband comes out. When you combint sum and difference outputs together, you just have a ring moddulator (with way too many parts). I think diophantine was right about the 2 outputs on the original panel - one from each ring modulator. You would need them to null the ring modulators before balancing the sum and difference outputs.

Stick to sine wave inputs until everything is calibrated. I spent a LOT of time tweaking the Kwangumwandler (which is bassically the same thing as the 185) - mostly balancing the mixers after nulling the ring modulators. I eneded up rewiring the balancing part because it was so tricky to get single side-bands!
lasesentaysiete
guitarfool

I agree it needs work. I will spend some actual time on it tomorrow.

What do you mean by "balancing the mixers"?

guitarfool wrote:


Both ring modulators have to be nulled out first - no output when only one input


This was done. And the 196 are calibrated, too.

Anyway, I will read up and have at it anew.
diophantine
Wish I could help further with the frequency shifter, but I've never used any sort of freq shifter in person...

Got my 192 up and running! I have to confess that I expected this to be a pretty boring filter, but was intrigued by lasesentaysiete's demo. But this thing is really awesome! The CV control (which early models didn't have) makes a huge difference - sweeping with the pot isn't so interesting. I spent a while just tapping the CV input with a +15V signal for different durations to get a feel for how it responds.

Still need to shrink the heat shrink. I expected the LDR/lamp installation to be a pain, but it wasn't bad. Just start your soldering from the top of the board to get them tacked down in the right place.

My 2nd 144 is up and running, too!
guitarfool
lasesentaysiete wrote:
guitarfool
What do you mean by "balancing the mixers"?

The levels of both ring modulator outputs have to be exactly equal going into the mixer to get only a single side-band output. Otherwise you get some of the other side-band, and it sounds like a ring modulator.
lasesentaysiete
guitarfool wrote:

The levels of both ring modulator outputs have to be exactly equal going into the mixer to get only a single side-band output. Otherwise you get some of the other side-band, and it sounds like a ring modulator.


Ah, ok. Thanks for clarifying.
lasesentaysiete
diophantine
great to hear. You will have to show us a photo when you are ready smile
guitarfool
Okay, I've built every module that Modular Addict has up for sale, and all of them are working as they should except the 160. The output level was just a few milli-Volts, and the flat noise sounded pink to me, with the 1/f more into the red. I couldn't find anything wrong, and after looking over the schematic (carefully this time), I noticed something strange:



With this gap, Q9, Q10 and Q5 serve no purpose. So I tried a jumper (the yellow wire) over the gap (between R31 and R32):



and It's peanut butter jelly time! the signal is now ~80-100 mV. Also the flat noise sounds flat and the 1/f sounds pink. I would still like the level about 6dB higher, but it's at least usable now.

Has anyone else had issues with the 160?
lasesentaysiete
UH OH, thats not good.

I had that on my initial build, and subsequently added that trace (as you have done).

I will have to check my record to see where this went wrong, but it is most likely that the incorrect gerber file was used for manufacturing. In that case, it would be all of Modular Addict's stock of the 160.

I apologize for the error. I will talk to them and see what the easiest way to fix this is.

Here is the correct file:

lasesentaysiete
some good news, now. This took most of the day, but its about ready for ordering (I started with a 12 key version):

diophantine
I added that jumper wire to my 160 and the 1/f output sounds much improved! Thanks!

However, I do note that the module is apparently very sensitive to power. When I tested it after building it I only had one other module on the PSU. Testing it just now the amplitude was so small I couldn't hear it until I unplugged other modules. At least based on the current requirements given at http://www.theonehundreds.com/ I was only using ~.5A on my .8A Blacet PSU. (The VCOs sounded fine on the PSU.)
lasesentaysiete
guitarfool
the output should not be that low. I get ~1.2v pk-pk. It could be the 2n4250. I will add to the BOM that it should be socketed or selected for "noise", like in the Serge noise circuit.

diophantine
I am not sure what you mean by "sensitive to power". I have used it with my regular linear PSU and also those 211s from Roman and I have not experienced problems. Are you saying that it draws a lot of current?


(post edited multiple times because I had my head up my arse while measuring. Also, see next post).
lasesentaysiete
Gentlemen, I have found an error in the BOM. R14 should be 68k, not 6k8. This greatly affects the output amplitude and should resolve your issues.

I apologize again for this! Seems the 160 has been a bit of a hiccup confused

lasesentaysiete
more work on the 185. Below is just 2 sines from the 158, first in a sequence, and then just basic frequency sweeps.

The sine wave output unusually low coming from the 185, so the recording is a bit noisy because the gain is high on my not awesome sound card. I am not sure what is causing this low amplitude.

[s]https://soundcloud.com/lasesentaysiete/185-test-2[/s]
diophantine
lasesentaysiete wrote:
I am not sure what you mean by "sensitive to power". I have used it with my regular linear PSU and also those 211s from Roman and I have not experienced problems. Are you saying that it draws a lot of current?

I'm not sure if the 160 draws a lot of current, but it does appear that (1) the power requirements posted by zthee may be low, and (2) the 160 may be affected sooner than other modules when the PSU is getting maxed out.

However, I have used the word "may" because this may be solved by the resistor change you mention. Not sure if I'll be able to get to it until the weekend, though...
lasesentaysiete
diophantine
If the problems you have had with it are related to amplitude, they will be resolved by the resistor correction mentioned above.

I would not expect the 160 to draw to much current. I will eventually get around to measuring each module's mA draw.
yan6
Any ETA on the rest of the pcb's via your webshop
lasesentaysiete
yan6 wrote:
Any ETA on the rest of the pcb's via your webshop


111, 144, 160, 175, 190, 192, 194 are done fabrication and are about to be shipped to me. They should arrive by Friday, or Monday latest.
lasesentaysiete
Here is a clip of the most interesting sounds I have managed to get out of the 185, so far. I have it calibrated pretty well, but it seems near impossible to keep carrier suppression even across the entire frequency range. I think this has to do with the imperfections of the 111 combined with the limited number of adjustment point on the 196. OR, its just me smile

[s]https://soundcloud.com/lasesentaysiete/185-phasing[/s]
guitarfool
Sounds pretty good to me - I think it's as good as you're going to get.
Even using the Haible dome filter (probably far better than the 196) it was not perfect as far as side-band rejection in my experiments.
guitarfool
lasesentaysiete wrote:
Gentlemen, I have found an error in the BOM. R14 should be 68k, not 6k8. This greatly affects the output amplitude and should resolve your issues.

I apologize again for this! Seems the 160 has been a bit of a hiccup confused


Ahh, works much better now. Thanks!
yan6
Do you have any info on the voltage requirements for the tantalum caps used, I'm trying to find some cheaper options than the ones specified in the BOM's.
lasesentaysiete
yan6 wrote:
Do you have any info on the voltage requirements for the tantalum caps used, I'm trying to find some cheaper options than the ones specified in the BOM's.


I would use at least 16v, but 25v is usually a safer option. If you really want to save and get higher voltage ratings, try an electrolytic. I have not used them as substitutes, but I would guess the circuit would still work smile
Leverkusen
lasesentaysiete wrote:
Here is a clip of the most interesting sounds I have managed to get out of the 185, so far. I have it calibrated pretty well, but it seems near impossible to keep carrier suppression even across the entire frequency range. I think this has to do with the imperfections of the 111 combined with the limited number of adjustment point on the 196. OR, its just me smile

https://soundcloud.com/lasesentaysiete/185-phasing



What is it we are listening to here? If it is the same sound pitch shifted in different amounts again and again, I think it's pretty good(interesting.
lasesentaysiete
Leverkusen wrote:


What is it we are listening to here? If it is the same sound pitch shifted in different amounts again and again, I think it's pretty good(interesting.


Its a 144 a carrier and 158 saw as modulator (I hope these are the right terms!). Their respective frequencies are fairly close together, and it creates a sort of phaser sound. The different clips are different frequencies. I change the modulator frequency only slightly during the clips. Also, there is some AM on the 144.
lasesentaysiete
Other than all 4 switches being wired backwards, the 155 works well (Serge tribute banana colours optional).

lasesentaysiete
Here are 2 distinct but still fairly similar layouts of the 123. The white one works, and the green one does not--properly, at least. Just shows the importance Don's layouts had with regards to the module actually functioning smile

Jarno
What did you change?
lasesentaysiete
Jarno wrote:
What did you change?


Mostly the individual stages. There seems to be a connection between schematic drawings and pcb layouts with these 100 series modules. I made the individual stage layouts resemble the schematic more closely, and then I made sure that the capacitors that join the stages together did not have long trace lengths to adjoining components. I also changed the input section a bit to mimic the drawing better.

The problem my first layout had was that it would not change stages. Dave Brown gave me some pointers about component value changes, but that did not completely solve the issue. He had worked on a DIY 123 that was not switching stages correctly, and ended up making a bunch of modifications to get it working. He determined that proper functionality was highly layout dependent.
diophantine
It is still so crazy to me how some of these modules heavily rely on the layouts... glad to hear you've got it working!

Are your slew times on the 155 similar to what is noted on the panel, i.e. up to 10 seconds?
cygmu
Yes, I would not be at all surprised if the 123 was very sensitive. The 245/246 is similarly touchy. Actually when you scope out how the stages switch on and off it is a miracle it works at all, as far as I can tell. Congratulations for making a 123 board that works!
uuav
Yay! can't wait for 123 and 112!
Any idea on why the layout is that sensitive? It's something can't understand, is it because of the use of different components ?
lasesentaysiete
diophantine wrote:
It is still so crazy to me how some of these modules heavily rely on the layouts... glad to hear you've got it working!

Are your slew times on the 155 similar to what is noted on the panel, i.e. up to 10 seconds?


Yes, you can set max value at 10 seconds. There are 2 trimmers per side, one for positive slope, and the other for negative. It can go well beyond 10 seconds, too.

CV the slopes and you can get shapes like this, easily:

lasesentaysiete
cygmu wrote:
Yes, I would not be at all surprised if the 123 was very sensitive. The 245/246 is similarly touchy. Actually when you scope out how the stages switch on and off it is a miracle it works at all, as far as I can tell. Congratulations for making a 123 board that works!


I am happy it works, for sure. I cannot pretend to fully understand why, though smile

Dave Brown helped me understand that crosstalk and coupling between stages needed to be eliminated.
lasesentaysiete
uuav wrote:

Any idea on why the layout is that sensitive?


It is because of the circuit design. Apparently Don designed a digital system in analog (again, Dave Brown told me this). It is not an efficient circuit.
diophantine
lasesentaysiete wrote:
diophantine wrote:
Are your slew times on the 155 similar to what is noted on the panel, i.e. up to 10 seconds?


Yes, you can set max value at 10 seconds. There are 2 trimmers per side, one for positive slope, and the other for negative. It can go well beyond 10 seconds, too.

Excellent - thanks! I hate slew modules that only offer 1-2 seconds of slew. ;-)
diophantine
Possibly OT... I am getting cabinets built, and want any feedback in case I am planning to do something stupid...

The plan is two identical sets of cabinets, like the CBS cabinets, each holding up to 25 modules for a total of 50 spaces.

Each one will have a lower cabinet with 10 spaces and an upper cabinet with 15 spaces. Lower cabinets will hold the PSUs (and have an IEC inlet/etc. cut in the back), upper cabinets will have the reverb tanks/etc. Upper/lower cabinets will be connected with four carriage bolts (so they can be moved together, but can be separated if needed) and have a hole between them to connect power distro boards. Bottom cabinets will have a solid back (with the IEC inlet), top cabinets will have a removable back panel.

I will be putting a large 15V linear PSU in each bottom cabinet. For 24V I don't know if I will be installing linear PSUs (unfortunately there is nothing smaller than .5A), or switching PSUs, or just a wall-wart/desktop brick zip-tied inside.
lasesentaysiete
diophantine
Your cabinet plans sound good to me. I wish I had the space for 2 25 spacers like that love

I have not mentioned this in a while, but I have made a new power distribution pcb that includes Meanwell SKE10A-24 for dc-dc conversion to 24v. It is pretty small but has decent specifications, providing up to 400mA or something like that. Also, noise specs are better than the Cincon things that are widely used. I am using one.

The PCB looks like this (not sure if final version):



diophantine
lasesentaysiete wrote:
I wish I had the space for 2 25 spacers like that love

Hey, I never said that I have room for it! hihi I have no idea where it'll go... MY ASS IS BLEEDING

That new distro board looks great! I'd been wondering if a DC-DC converter might do the trick, but hadn't really looked into it. Are the inlets spade terminals or terminal blocks? I suppose I can daisy chain by connecting the inlet on one of them to an MTA header (with 18awg wire) and plugging that into the first board.

What's the approximate size, and do you know what DC-DC converter you'll recommend?
lasesentaysiete
diophantine wrote:

What's the approximate size, and do you know what DC-DC converter you'll recommend?


The distro connects to the PSU via spade types, 2 for 15v and 2 for 0v so you can connect more than one distro pcb.

The converter is a Meanwell SKE10A-24 and the pcb is approximately 6,5 x 16 cm. The pcb has a footprint for the DC-DC converter on it if you look closely.
diophantine
lasesentaysiete wrote:
The converter is a Meanwell SKE10A-24 and the pcb is approximately 6,5 x 16 cm. The pcb has a footprint for the DC-DC converter on it if you look closely.

I saw the footprint, but somehow missed the text! d'oh!
Looks perfect! Sign me up! cool
yan6
The front panels finally came in. For a while I was regretting not buying the combo from MA. That was quickly parked when I opened these up, the quality is fabulous and to me they look just right.

I seriously hope you continue to develop the FPE express files with each new pcb.

It's peanut butter jelly time!







lasesentaysiete
yan6
Nice! You have lots of building ahead of you w00t

The 156 panel is off, though. You can see that the graphic on the right hand side is offset to the outer edge. I will check the file when I get a chance. I know the one I used to get panels made does not have this offset.
yan6
Your right, what a bummer sad banana

I offered it up to the pcb, at least the holes match up with the silk screen
lasesentaysiete
yan6 wrote:
Your right, what a bummer sad banana

I offered it up to the pcb, at least the holes match up with the silk screen


I will send you a PM about this in the morning.

To address your previous post: I will continue to publish panel files for all modules.
diophantine
Too bad about that alignment! Otherwise, they look really nice!

Are all those panels for yourself? Gonna have four 158s and three 110s in your system? woah


BTW, folks - Sowter got my transformers (for the 190) out sooner than anticipated & they arrived today. Not sure if they made a batch of them, or if they are still made-to-order, though.


And one last power thing before I pull the trigger on my cabinets... I assume that I definitely want to go with a linear PSU here? A lot of the modern switching ones are quite clean, and are (IMO) easier to deal with, but a lot of these 100 series modules don't really have much in the way of power conditioning.
diophantine
[dupe...]
lasesentaysiete
BOMs and schematics are up for the 175 & 190. As always, let me know if they need any corrections.
lasesentaysiete
I have just about managed to get the entire 191 onto a single PCB. I just have to route the traces for the rotary switch. Its a 4-pole, 2-position, 2-deck rotary switch. That eight switches in one! Plus 4 more spdt toggles for internal/external CV.

The 191 schematic is pretty big (2 pages), as you can tell from the amount of components on this PCB.

OH! And 15 trimmers smile

guitarfool
Great! It's peanut butter jelly time!

Are you going to share the top-secret schematic that no one so far has revealed?
lasesentaysiete
guitarfool wrote:
Great! It's peanut butter jelly time!

Are you going to share the top-secret schematic that no one so far has revealed?


Of course! All schematics will be published.
djs
any thoughts on the 148? smile
lasesentaysiete
djs wrote:
any thoughts on the 148? smile


Its on the list, but nearer to the bottom. I will have to spend more time with the schematic and figure out the best way to lay it out for a DIY PCB. Also, from what I remember, it uses a ua726, so that will have to be resolved somehow, too.

Here is the schematic, for anyone who has not seen it:


fluxmonkey
lasesentaysiete wrote:
djs wrote:
any thoughts on the 148? smile


Its on the list, but nearer to the bottom. I will have to spend more time with the schematic and figure out the best way to lay it out for a DIY PCB. Also, from what I remember, it uses a ua726, so that will have to be resolved somehow, too.

Here is the schematic, for anyone who has not seen it:


i haven't tried 'em, but a purported ua726 replacement is available: http://www.portabellabz.be/pa726.html. maybe troubling for purists, but unobtainium is unobtainium.

aslo, fullsize schemes here: http://fluxmonkey.com/historicBuchla/148-harmonicgen.htm
cygmu
fluxmonkey wrote:


i haven't tried 'em, but a purported ua726 replacement is available: http://www.portabellabz.be/pa726.html. maybe troubling for purists, but unobtainium is unobtainium.


I believe that is essentially a 3046-based heater design, as used in e.g. Doepfer A-110.
Some write up (not mine) can be found here: https://ua726.co.uk/2016/12/18/ua726-replacer-quick-test/

Roman used it on the Rev 3 258 boards in place of the uA726 too. Mine seems to work ok.

Of course, CA3046 is now obsolete too.
lasesentaysiete
I am also wondering how important an accurate replication of the ua726 is in this circuit. It might go OK with some matched transistors.
diophantine
Always been curious about how the 191 operates....
Does the bandwidth control do anything in 'independent' mode?
Do the individual filter inputs/outputs/controls do anything in 'bandpass' mode?
Do the bandpass filter inputs/outputs/controls do anything in 'independent' mode?
What do the lamps/LEDs do?
(I'm guessing that the switch does a lot of stuff with the input/output switching.)

15 trimmers? Wow! That'll be the most expensive part of the BOM! hihi
lasesentaysiete
diophantine
The 191 is "kind of" like a Moog 904 trio, but combined into a single module. "Kind of" because I have not spent any real time looking a the Moog circuits, but the 191 is essentially an LP and an HP and a "coupler" section to give BP.

The 2 sides (LP/HP & BP) are truly independent, from what I can tell--at least on the panel. The LEDs indicate which side is engaged, and the disengaged side's controls do nothing. The switch controls this complex routing scheme.

Hopefully the trimmers end up being the most expensive part of the BOM. Each section or "pole" of each filter uses a p-channel jfet. I am going to try a j175 and hope for the best, but if it turns out to need a 2n5020, we are in big trouble! Also, the rotary switch is ~20€.
Leverkusen
How is the 123 going? Would be the last piece to fill the first upper case and make a great first start to play with it.

Also, looking at your site, am I right that you do not plan to do the 146? That would be a pity...

Still excited about all this and collecting money to order the next pcb's and build a case.

It's peanut butter jelly time! nanners
lasesentaysiete
Leverkusen
123 is tested and working. I mentioned it a bit earlier in the thread. I still plan to do a 146, but it will come later. I have to decide how to do the pcb. Essentially, it could be a sort of expansion or "add-on" to the 123 pcb because it is the same circuit, only with more stages.

The next group of modules I will have available are 112, 123, 155, 196. This week I will test the 112. The rest are ready.
diophantine
Thanks for the info on the 191! I must confess that I'm slightly bummed out that the LEDs only indicate the state of the switch, given that it is the only 100-series module with LEDs, aside from the 123/146. (Even the 200 series didn't start having such indicators until the later modules with Rogan knobs.) But still sounds like an interesting module, and of course I want one!

And I also want a 146! ;-)

BTW, my cabinet order should be finalized in the next 48 hours, and then they'll be built.... can't wait to have 'em! I'll post details when they're done and in my hands, in case other folks are interested in having them made.
lasesentaysiete
diophantine
yeah, kind of a bummer the whole LED thing. The upside is that the switch routing would probably have been even more complicated if the LEDs were output indicators.

The rotary switch for the 123 is proving difficult to source. It requires a switch with a 22.5 degree rotation index in order to retain the original panel graphics. Unfortunately, I have not been able to find anything readily available. I am therefore leaning towards changing the panel graphic slightly, so that a more standard switch with 30 degree rotation can be used. The panel would look like this:



The good thing is that 22.5º switch for the 146 can be more easily had, so the dot spacing will not have to be modified there. In any case, I do not think it would be possible to change the spacing on the 146 because it is so dense.
diophantine
Can the switch for the 146 not be used for the 123 as well?

If it isn't an adjustable switch (for number of positions), you can always just connect the lug for position 8 to the lugs for 9, 10, 11, etc. So you could turn it past 8 on the panel, but nothing would change.
lasesentaysiete
diophantine wrote:
Can the switch for the 146 not be used for the 123 as well?


I thought so, initially. It turns out that these Grayhill switches are not readily available with adjustable position amounts. Luckily, there is a 15 position switch that will work for the 146. I cannot find a 7 position (or an adjustable position) model for the 123.

So, instead of having a switch with correct angle index, but incorrect (too many) position amount, I thought changing the panel graphic was easier and better.

To clarify, the switch is wired to stages 3-8 of the 123, shorting a specific point in the circuit to the 15v rail. The 7th position is left open or unconnected, giving the 8 stages.

Here is the Grayhill model to be used for the 146:

https://www.mouser.es/ProductDetail/Grayhill/51SP22-01-1-15S?qs=sGAEpi MZZMvNbjZ2WlReYhndqMY8foDIZvwspKHNMwY%3d
Leverkusen
lasesentaysiete wrote:
diophantine wrote:
Can the switch for the 146 not be used for the 123 as well?


So, instead of having a switch with correct angle index, but incorrect (too many) position amount, I thought changing the panel graphic was easier and better.


That's what I think too. Also, the half circle of the 30 deg. switch looks nearly as nice and clean to me as the 8 stages position at 12:00 of the 22.5 deg. one.
yan6
I've made some good progress the last few days, so far all have been tested and calibrated where needed. I've got either a small misunderstanding or an issue with the 180. It works fine when controlled by trigger length is selected. When I select control internally I lose all output, regradless of the note duration knob position. Any suggestions seriously, i just don't get it



Btw I hope that the power distro is in the next batch hihi
lasesentaysiete
yan6
Those look nice! Keep it up thumbs up

Regarding the 180: Did you use the switch from the BOM? Check that it is connecting properly. Otherwise, look around Q12 and the last bit of the schematic where the "note duration" potentiometer is.

EDIT: And what are you triggering it with?
yan6
I did use the switch from the bom and was triggering it with the output from a 208's envelope gen. I had it set to minimums and it was being triggered from one step of the sequencer
lasesentaysiete
Could it be that the 208's pulse is not adequate? I am not sure why it would work in the other mode, though. I have only tested used it with the 140.

If you have all knobs set to minimum, it will not do much.
diophantine
lasesentaysiete wrote:
diophantine wrote:
Can the switch for the 146 not be used for the 123 as well?

...

To clarify, the switch is wired to stages 3-8 of the 123, shorting a specific point in the circuit to the 15v rail. The 7th position is left open or unconnected, giving the 8 stages.

In that case, I'd honestly prefer using the 146 switch, and leaving the 8 additional positions disconnected (like the one for stage 8).

It would make the panel graphic AND feel consistent between the 123 and 146.

Curious what other builders think...
diophantine
lasesentaysiete wrote:
If you have all knobs set to minimum, it will not do much.

Yes! Try setting all the knobs to 10:00 or 11:00 for initial testing, to get the feel of it.

Also, try using the 156 for testing. Set one of the channels to output ~15V (i.e. top 2 knobs at 100%) and plug in/tap that signal at the 180 trigger input. You might accidentally make a few doubled triggers, but it totally works for testing it without a 140.
yan6
Thanks for the tips, I think I have them running. I found Q13 in backwards in one of the circuits. But I think the pulse I was using wasnt working. I switched to using the pulser and taped it in as suggested. This seemed to help; as the duration knob was increased, if the triggers were too close together the output would just stay high.
diophantine
Glad they're working now! Yeah, it does have some retriggering behaviour that I didn't expect, and which confused me at first, but seems to allow for creating some rather interesting shapes.
lasesentaysiete
yan6
Glad its working thumbs up

diophantine
I may end up offering both versions of the 123 panel, but you may end up having to get the original version directly from me. I think I will do the changed spacing version for Modular Addict (none of this is final, btw).
lasesentaysiete
About the 112:

I am considering doing both the 12 key and 16 key versions. Now, it seems the original were 12 keys, and later came the 16 key version with the blue keypad. So, I was thinking that the 12 key version could have the original keypad design, and the 16 key could have the blue. Does that sound OK?

Here is what the 12 key version would be like:



And then here is a screen shot of the blue PCB:

yan6
lasesentaysiete wrote:
About the 112:

I am considering doing both the 12 key and 16 key versions. Now, it seems the original were 12 keys, and later came the 16 key version with the blue keypad. So, I was thinking that the 12 key version could have the original keypad design, and the 16 key could have the blue. Does that sound OK?


starting with the 12 Key sounds good to me nanners

I'm also good with either rotary switch design. My only concern using the Grayhill switch; how will the circuit react if you enter position 9-or beyond, which are presumably grounded or left open?

Edit: I guess the remaining positions could be wired the same as the position 8
lasesentaysiete
yan6 wrote:


starting with the 12 Key sounds good to me nanners


Great!

yan6 wrote:

how will the circuit react if you enter position 9-or beyond, which are presumably grounded or left open?



The final postion is not connected. It cannot be grounded because that would short +15v to 0v. Using the Grayhill, you would just leave anything beyond the final position unconnected as well.
diophantine
yan6 wrote:
I'm also good with either rotary switch design. My only concern using the Grayhill switch; how will the circuit react if you enter position 9-or beyond, which are presumably grounded or left open?

Edit: I guess the remaining positions could be wired the same as the position 8

Sounds like nothing is connected to the switch at the position for step 8, so the additional positions would be the same & there would be no change in behavior going beyond the position for step 8.
diophantine
lasesentaysiete wrote:
Now, it seems the original were 12 keys, and later came the 16 key version with the blue keypad. So, I was thinking that the 12 key version could have the original keypad design, and the 16 key could have the blue. Does that sound OK?

Seems fine to me. I am curious if the later one is somehow different, electrically-speaking (obviously it is the same, schematic-wise), or if the difference is purely cosmetic?
lasesentaysiete
diophantine
I suspect the differences to be cosmetic only. Of course, I cannot confirm this.

The main non-cosmetic difference between the keybeds is that on some very early 12-key 112s, you can see that there is no 0v connection.
Leverkusen
I am really excited for the 112, as a controller of course and also because it means that the first case might be finished sooner as I had hoped for.

I would go for the 16 keys though. Regarding the keypad on one hand I would prefer the one that works better, which might be the later version. On the other hand the golden one might fit better with the green panel print than the blue one.

I wonder if it would be possible to etch my own if you provide the design?
lasesentaysiete
Leverkusen
I cannot say, yet, if one keybed will work better than the other.

I can provide a file for you to etch your own. I am not sure what you need, so you would have to tell me how to prepare it.

Otherwise, keybeds will be included with the main PCBs.
yan6
What kind of pk-pk should I be seeing on the 158A sine and on the saw
lasesentaysiete
yan6 wrote:
What kind of pk-pk should I be seeing on the 158A sine and on the saw

The saw has a higher amplitude than the sine, but they should both still be in line-level range. Sine for me have been ~800mv and saws ~1.2v, if I remember correctly. I can have a look later today.
yan6
Okay, I seem to be about the same. I was concerned about the difference between them. I seem to be having an issue with the sine wave, I can adjust the top to have nice shape but the bottom always stays like a triangle and never rounds out.
lasesentaysiete
yan6
Check the area between q14 and q15 on the schematic (diode orientation, resistor values, etc.).
lasesentaysiete
I have the 112 working well, now. The CBS schematic is not OK. There are some errors in the section that controls the active stage. Nothing too bad, and luckily the individual stages are OK.

Below is a demo of the 112 controlling a 158. One side of the 158 is FM the other. At the beginning of the demo, I am controlling the 192 cutoff with the pressure out. Then I switch to opening the 110 with a 180 triggered by the 112. Overall, it works well.

By the way, the keybed is silver, although the reflected light makes it look gold.

[s]https://soundcloud.com/lasesentaysiete/112a[/s]

Leverkusen
Bravo! applause

It sounds as if the keyboard is quite playable. Also I might be a bit too picky with the colour scheme - maybe the blue board is nice for freshness and variety in colours.
yan6
Nice work with the 112, sounds good applause

I'm still trying to shake out the 158, below is the wave I'm getting, the top seems fine but the bottom is very triangular still. I looked through the components near Q14 & Q15 and I haven't spotted anything. Maybe a second set of eyes will see something.



lasesentaysiete
yan6
Is it just the one side, or both?
yan6
Both side of the vco have tha same output shape
lasesentaysiete
yan6 wrote:
Both side of the vco have tha same output shape

That makes me think it is a component problem. Possibly the J201s. I will have to have a closer look at that section this week.

I have gotten initial wave shapes that needed work in the past, but I have not come across what you have there.
yan6
I found this article which explained enough to get me thinking the resistors around the diode clamp needed adjusting. I replaced R40 & R43 with trimmers. R43 did nothing at all through the full range of the trimmer. I thought the same of R43, until near the end of its range it jumped.

http://www.timstinchcombe.co.uk/index.php?pge=trisin similar circuit show midway down.




I'm not sure I'm happy with the sound tho, it has a very whispy kind of sound, possibly from the distortion at the top of the wave?
lasesentaysiete
yan6
this sentence from that article would have me think it is the J201:

Quote:
to maintain accuracy, the amplitude of the input triangle wave needs to be well controlled, and this needs to be in the correct relation to the chosen JFET's threshold voltage in order to ensure that the JFET does indeed cut-off at the top of the triangle


The wave shape on yours is far from a sine. The circuit is capable of a pretty decent sine, so I would not base my judgement of the sound on what you are getting now.

The notes on the original schematic say that q15 should be selected for ~5ma Idss. Now, the Stinchcombe article refers to VGS and not Idss, but it may be related.
yan6
I'll have to buy some 201's from mouser this week and see what I get. I'm using some older ones that I had from previous serge builds.

You right its definitely something to do with the J201
lasesentaysiete
yan6
Maybe socket q15 on future builds? I would also socket q7, and try a j175 instead of the 2n5020. I have had good luck with the j175s so far.
vladosh
that looks almost like absolute sine or i'm wrong ,are the diodes the right orientation ,this is just a guess
cygmu
This definitely looks like a JFET whose Idss is not in the required range.

The schematic I've seen says 0.5mA Idss, rather than 5mA -- which I think would not be achievable for a J201. It is certainly worth experimenting with some other JFETs. Obviously you could start by switching the J201 from the working side to the non-working one and seeing if that fixes things.

It really should be possible to take the guesswork out of this sine shaper and turn it into science but the best resource I've found on it is Tim Stinchcombe's page, linked in posts above, which refers to an article I cannot locate. Frustrating!
lasesentaysiete
cygmu wrote:


The schematic I've seen says 0.5mA Idss, rather than 5mA -- which I think would not be achievable for a J201.


Correct! I misread the schematic note. And yes, Idss for the J201 is between 0,2 and 1ma, according to the datasheet.

I suspect there to be some flexibility regarding the .5ma recommendation. I have not yet had to hand select a J201 for the sine shaper, so the ones you have used are probably pretty far off from .5ma, yan6.
yan6
Swapped out the J201 today with some from mouser and things are looking and sounding good. Side A looks better than side B, I'm curious if anything could be done to help fix side B. I have the trimmer turned all the way ccw ( I think hmmm.....) and have 3k in R42 &R43. I had 2.5k in there previously, it didnt seem like the 3k's made it any better, certainly not any worse.

Side A


Side B
lasesentaysiete
yan6
If you lower R37 to something like 270r, that will raise the amplitude of the triangle going into the sine shaper. The higher amplitude should then allow you to trim it into a proper sine.

The shapes look better than before, but not quite there, yet.
lasesentaysiete
I had been in contact with Brian at Sowter regarding a possible replacement for the Triad A-11J used in the 170 mic preamp. He is now offering a direct replacement, model 1585:

http://www.sowter.co.uk/cgi-bin/sh000001.pl?WD=cbs&PN=VINTAGE-RECORDIN G-AMPLIFIER-TRANSFORMERS-A-to-K%2ehtml#a578

This is excellent news for anyone keen on the getting a 170 into their system!
lasesentaysiete
I have taken a closer look at the 165 schematic. I was unaware that it uses the the 160 as noise source. This is hardwired directly to the 165 pcb.

Schematic excerpt:



PD: So this means that you can use whichever audio you like as an input.
ST.P
@lasesentaysiete:

i know you are very busy, but i want to ask if it´s possible to make
some panel files available - my next builds are the 144 and 194 ...

thank you!
lasesentaysiete
ST.P
Thanks for reminding me. I will get them up by tomorrow. Sorry!
ST.P
thanks a lot thumbs up
lasesentaysiete
ST.P wrote:
thanks a lot thumbs up


My pleasure!

Just as a general note about using these files:

Have a good look at the panel before fabrication. Its easier for me to fix the file quickly, as opposed to ending up with a mis-printed panel.
lasesentaysiete
I finished the 191. Everything works OK, but it took a while to get going. The HP side is not difficult, but the LP side is tricky. There is a pretty limited range within which the trimmer for each pole has to be set for it to function properly.

Oh, and the innocent looking rotary switch on the front panel is actually 8 2-position rotary switches in 1.

I will post sound demos tomorrow.

Leverkusen
Great work - I am looking forward to the demos of the 191! applause

While going through the BOM's of the other modules I wondered if I could use different spring tanks for the 190? Banzai has also a shorter on with the same 8 Ohm / 2250 Ohm impedances, but a shorter (medium opposed to long) decay. Different flavours of delay would be nice I thought, plus I prefer shorter reverbs anyway:

Accutronics 1AB2B1B

And how about even shorter ones with slightly different impedance (10/2275 Ohm)?
guitarfool
Yes you can! As luck would have it, I had some 1AB2A1B tanks laying around (same as the tanks you mentioned, with floating rather than grounded outputs I think - doesn't matter as they're grounded at the PCB). So here are a couple of quick demos, first pair of tracks with only La 67 modules for sound sources, first track with the recomended long tanks, the second with the medium tanks. Second pair of tracks use modules from my 200 boats as sound sources (probably shows the effect better), first track with the long tanks and then the last track with the medium tanks. Each demo starts dry (0 reverb) with the reverb control slowly increased (in both channels). The second pair of demos return to dry at the end. Looking back, I probably should have used one tank on the right, and the other tank on the left! Enjoy.

[s]https://soundcloud.com/user-558302218/190-a4b3c1a[/s]
[s]https://soundcloud.com/user-558302218/190-1ab2a1b[/s]
 [s]https://soundcloud.com/user-558302218/190-a4b3c1a-2[/s]
[s]https://soundcloud.com/user-558302218/190-1ab2a1b-2[/s]
lasesentaysiete
guitarfool
Nice sounds! They both work well. And nice looking system thumbs up

I have some 191 sounds here. It goes: LP, then HP, then BP. I am only using a 158 as sound source, and a 144 at the filter's FM input mostly throughout. I still have some work to do on the HP, it has a sort of buzziness to it. I do not know if that is normal or not.

[s]https://soundcloud.com/lasesentaysiete/191-lp-hp-bp[/s]
guitarfool
lasesentaysiete wrote:
I have some 191 sounds here. It goes: LP, then HP, then BP. I am only using a 158 as sound source, and a 144 at the filter's FM input mostly throughout. I still have some work to do on the HP, it has a sort of buzziness to it. I do not know if that is normal or not.


Sounds pretty good to me! Can't wait to get this one!
Could the buzziness be due to FM'ing with a square wave?

lasesentaysiete wrote:
guitarfool
Nice sounds! They both work well. And nice looking system thumbs up


Thanks! I decided to go with the early pre-CBS cabinets. $330 USD of black walnut and 3 weeks of sanding and varnishing for 3 cabinets (I still have some 1x2 walnut for the keyboard boats):



The other 2 cabinets are waiting on power components from Mouser which should arrive today. The way I'm doing it, there are only power connections in each cabinet for 14 modules, which is okay as long as I put at least one 2U module in each one eek! And yes I even varnished the inside, since I don't plan on putting back covers on them hihi

So I am finally ready for the next batch of PCBs and Panels It's peanut butter jelly time!
yan6
I'm just about ready to glue up my cases, did you end up using 3/4" material for the screw rails, is there enough bite there for the screws. I just eyeballed it and it looks like it may have needed to be thicker to move the screw inwards from the edge.

Lovely work btw thumbs up
lasesentaysiete
Those cabinets are excellent applause
lasesentaysiete
yan6
In my cabinet, I used a 1 cm strip along the top and bottom, and 18mm pieces for the middle 2.

3/4" should be OK for the middle pieces, but too thick for the top and bottom.
guitarfool
yan6 wrote:
I'm just about ready to glue up my cases, did you end up using 3/4" material for the screw rails, is there enough bite there for the screws. I just eyeballed it and it looks like it may have needed to be thicker to move the screw inwards from the edge.

Lovely work btw thumbs up


Thanks! I used "1x2"s for the 2 middle rails, which are actually 3/4" thick. They worked fine, but if not accurately placed (I learned this the hard way) one side will need to be shaved slightly to clear the PCB edges. I used 1/2" thick for the top and bottom rails. These worked fine.

I used #4 3/4" long slotted pan head self tapping screws (to better match the original). I drilled pilot holes slightly smaller then the screw size, and had no trouble. The holes ended up from 1/8 - 3/16 inches from the edge of the rails. eek! But there was no splitting, and they hold tight (so far).

When dry-fitting, the 156, 140 and 180 were the tightest fit between the rails, so if they fit it's good. Wish I had done it this way on the first cabinet:

yan6
Very detailed, thank you thumbs up What backseat did you choose on the rails I wasn't able to find any info from the original cases, looks like 1"
guitarfool
yan6 wrote:
Very detailed, thank you thumbs up What backseat did you choose on the rails I wasn't able to find any info from the original cases, looks like 1"


I used 3/4". It looked about right to me. If I had done 1" (or even 7/8") I would have been able to lay the cabinets face down without the knobs hitting the table not this shit again
guitarfool


I take that back. On close inspection, it looks like only the chicken head knob would hit (the switches would be real close). I can always cut down the rotary switch shaft, but 7/8" setback would probably have been better anyway.
lasesentaysiete
guitarfool
I must have filed the rotary switch on my 140 down some because the pointer knob sits much closer to the panel. The farthest point is ~19mm (3/4"). Or maybe I have a different switch installed? I cannot remember.
guitarfool
Oh, I forgot. The large knobs (oscillator frequency control) sit almost as high as my chicken head! So I take back what I took back. 7/8" (or more) is needed if you ever want to lay the cabinet face down.

lasesentaysiete: Did you put any spacer/washer behind the panel when mounting the rotary switch? That would fix it also. Looks like about 3mm of thread above the nut on mine!
Leverkusen
guitarfool wrote:
Yes you can!

[s]https://soundcloud.com/user-558302218/190-a4b3c1a[/s]
[s]https://soundcloud.com/user-558302218/190-1ab2a1b[/s]


Thank you very much for the great audio demos! I love how the bigger tank makes the FM sound like a bell while the smaller tanks sounds more like hitting a piece of metal. I will definitely go this route.

Also congrats to your beautiful cases!
applause
diophantine
Catching up here... was out of town for a bit & then I had to get caught up with work... Anyhow, came home from work today & built my 175 - sounds really nice with the 144! Gonna populate the 190 board over the weekend, but the panel is on its way to the guy who is making my cabinets - can't wait to have those done!

guitarfool - lovely cases!

Thanks for the reverb demos, too. I'm glad that I much prefer the long tank! (Short tank sounds good, too, but I already have "that sound" in my TTSH and 208...)

lasesentaysiete - looks like a lot of great progress!

165 - any chance of putting an optional 160 white noise circuit on the PCB, for those of us who may want to put it in a different cabinet as the 160?

191 - looks like a beast, and sounds like one! Really looking forward to it. I notice that your PCB is missing the holes for the strain-relief zip-tie on the power - is that just since it is a prototype?
lasesentaysiete
diophantine wrote:


lasesentaysiete
165 - any chance of putting an optional 160 white noise circuit on the PCB, for those of us who may want to put it in a different cabinet as the 160?


Something like that could work. I will have a better idea once I start the layout. It will be pretty dense.

diophantine wrote:

191 - looks like a beast, and sounds like one! Really looking forward to it. I notice that your PCB is missing the holes for the strain-relief zip-tie on the power - is that just since it is a prototype?


Yes, the holes will be included on the real PCB. I have to change some footprints and silkscreen elements, too.
lasesentaysiete
A few more notes on the 191:

I agree with what other have said, it does indeed sound nice. All three sections are solid and offer an interesting filter character. I especially like the bandpass mode, but this comes down to personal preference.

The "very poor design" note found on the schematic (coming soon) is misleading. There are several schematics that contain notes that seem to have been added at later dates. They are not written in the same handwriting as the drawings themselves--which were mostly done by Don himself--and refer mostly to technical and/or manufacturing aspects of the modules. In this context, "very poor design" makes sense because the trimmers do not allow much room for error when calibrating. Luckily, using modern multi-turn trimmers facilitates the calibration.

I used j175 fets throughout, and the filter seems to operate as it should. This essentially means a 120€ savings on the final build cost because the expensive 2n5020 is not needed.

The rotary switch is 21€, but is of high quality (Grayhill).
vtl5c3
My understanding is that the "very poor design" and other such notes are from CBS engineering, who reviewed Don's schematics after the 100 series was acquired by them.
lasesentaysiete
vtl5c3
I think you are right.
diophantine
I forgot to ask before... any news on the power distro PCBs?

Also, I noticed that BOMs were posted for the 112a, 123, 155, and 196. Any idea when these will be available at your store and/or at ModularAddict?

lasesentaysiete wrote:
diophantine wrote:
165 - any chance of putting an optional 160 white noise circuit on the PCB, for those of us who may want to put it in a different cabinet as the 160?


Something like that could work. I will have a better idea once I start the layout. It will be pretty dense.

That would be awesome if it could be done, thanks for considering!
lasesentaysiete
112a, 123, 155, 196 should be available at Modular Addict any day now.

PSU distro PCB is on its third version. I had overlooked the possibility of wanting to connect external controller modules (eg, 112, 114). At the latest, it will be included in the next batch of PCBs made available.
Virusinstaller
I eagerly await there release. Pretty awesome to have so many Buchla 100 as Readily available DIY now. Good work!
Leverkusen
That's great news! I noticed the updated BOM's too yesterday and was about to ask if they are fixed now and it would be safe to include them into an order.

I assume this batch will also be available at your shop soon - with the 123 my first case would be complete and I will order all parts now and finally start building.

It's peanut butter jelly time!
lasesentaysiete
Leverkusen
To my knowledge, the BOMs are correct.

I finished the 172 Signal Leveler yesterday. Here is what it sounds like on 158 waveforms:

[s]https://soundcloud.com/lasesentaysiete/172-sine-to-saw[/s]
Leverkusen
lasesentaysiete wrote:
Leverkusen
To my knowledge, the BOMs are correct.

I finished the 172 Signal Leveler yesterday.


Regarding the BOM's, I might have worded it ambiguous. I meant fixed in the sense of fix - not that they have been incorrect before. I just wasn't sure if the designs are finished and it would be safe to order parts already, before PCB's are released for sale.

The 172 is basically a compressor, isn't it? I would love to hear it with some external audio someday, maybe coming from the 170/171. Like speech or field recordings. Could be interesting with drums and the 130 too. I wonder if the output of the 130 would also work as a gate/clock signal?
lasesentaysiete
Leverkusen
Ah, yes, the circuits are finalized. PCBs are on their way to Modular Addict and the order for my web shop has been placed.

The 172 is a compressor, or leveling amplifier. I have not used it in a mix, yet. It may end up being a nice piece to insert right before the final output. I hope so.

I plan to make a small system for a friend consisting of a 170 mic pre, 130 envelope follower, 172 compressor, 175 eq, and maybe a filter. She would use it to record cello. I am interested in the quality of these circuits in a recording context.
lasesentaysiete
I am looking over various schematics and just realized that there is an error in the 180 BOM: All pots should be LOG taper. Decay and Note Duration are also logarithmic.

I apologize for this. Modules built with linear pots will, of course, still function.

Leverkusen
lasesentaysiete wrote:
I am looking over various schematics and just realized that there is an error in the 180 BOM: All pots should be LOG taper. Decay and Note Duration are also logarithmic.

I apologize for this. Modules built with linear pots will, of course, still function.


When putting together an order I noticed that for some modules the link you provided does not match the potentiometer in the list. Have you also checked the other BOM's?

Also when I follow the mouser numbers provided for the parts I get different incarnations of the same caps, partly varying in lead spacing of 2.5 mm and 5 mm, partly axial versions. I got 5 different 100uF electrolytics and 4 in 10uF. Is this intentional and does the lead spacing for the caps really vary that much?
diophantine
Leverkusen wrote:
When putting together an order I noticed that for some modules the link you provided does not match the potentiometer in the list. Have you also checked the other BOM's?

I do recall that a few of the BOMs had incorrect links to Tayda for pots - totally forgot about this, because there's only 3-4 flavors of pots used so I just tallied them up on a different sheet & ordered. Buy what is indicated in the left column.

Leverkusen wrote:
Also when I follow the mouser numbers provided for the parts I get different incarnations of the same caps, partly varying in lead spacing of 2.5 mm and 5 mm, partly axial versions. I got 5 different 100uF electrolytics and 4 in 10uF. Is this intentional and does the lead spacing for the caps really vary that much?

Are you searching the part#s directly? Mouser will often show multiple results, including parts that have been somehow linked by the manufacturer, and ones with longer part#s. Look for the part with the exact part # in the list. Or better yet, just use the shopping cart linked at the end of the BOM.

I have verified all of the BOMs and shopping carts except for the four new ones, which I can hopefully do tomorrow...
diophantine
lasesentaysiete wrote:
112a, 123, 155, 196 should be available at Modular Addict any day now.

PSU distro PCB is on its third version. I had overlooked the possibility of wanting to connect external controller modules (eg, 112, 114). At the latest, it will be included in the next batch of PCBs made available.

Awesome, thanks!
lasesentaysiete
Leverkusen
In some cases, Mouser will give multiple results if you search a particular part #. The Mouser cart linked at the bottom of each BOM document has the intended part, though.

I will get the BOMs (links, etc.) in order today.
diophantine
FYI - if you're buying parts for the 123, buy 10 of the lamps rather than 8... you'll save over $5 and you'll get two free ones you can use in the 191!
Leverkusen
diophantine wrote:
FYI - if you're buying parts for the 123, buy 10 of the lamps rather than 8... you'll save over $5 and you'll get two free ones you can use in the 191!


Yes, or in the 146... thumbs up

I always check if a quantity discount is available since my first SMD orders. It's a bit of work and you have to keep track of your already stored spare parts, but it pays off in the end - you just must never stop building. Or design one last weird thing out of all the accumulated parts before you die. Dalek
hox3d
Yeah, I find it easier not to keep track of amount but rather the reference. When I need something I know I have, I usually check the amount and see if I have have enough.

Subtracting the amount used of each component at the end of a project is way too much work.
Most of the time I try to keep a rough idea of the amount I have left.
diophantine
Leverkusen wrote:
Yes, or in the 146... thumbs up

Yup! I actually ordered 26! Mr. Green

Yeah, for a project like this I typically buy all of my transistors and trimpots in bulk when I need more, and I bought all of the knobs, jacks, standoffs, etc. at the beginning.

For the resistors & caps I buy what I need for each batch of projects since it is really easy with the cart. (For other one-off projects I raid my stash first.)
vladosh
just to ask if the 112 Schematics are correct ,and is it a tricky build i saw a lot of trimmers on the pcb posted here ,thanks smile
lasesentaysiete
vladosh
The common CBS schematic found online has a few small errors and omissions in it. There is a corrected schematic posted on my website.

There are 2 trimmers per stage. They adjust finger pressure and trigger outputs.
vladosh
lasesentaysiete wrote:
vladosh
The common CBS schematic found online has a few small errors and omissions in it. There is a corrected schematic posted on my website.

There are 2 trimmers per stage. They adjust finger pressure and trigger outputs.



thanks ,i meant about the one on your site ,good to know i may even try and make one smile
lasesentaysiete
the schematic is not complicated, just repetitive and the size adds up quickly.
vladosh
now i gotta ask ..the two arrows facing down from the repititive part of the circuit ..do they all connect together ? or they are separate cv and trigger outs
lasesentaysiete
"Common to all stages" means that all arrows coming off of "C3" connect, and all arrows coming off of "Q3" connect.

By "C3" and "Q3", I mean equivalent reference numbers in each stage.
vladosh
Thanks a lot ,and thank you for sharing these ,cheers smile
lasesentaysiete
130 is working.

diophantine
lasesentaysiete wrote:
130 is working.

Awesome!

I'd love to know how well this works with signals not sent through the 170/171. Specifically I'd love to create Subotnick-style "control tracks", record them to my portable recorder, and play them back into the 130 without the need for a 170/171.
lasesentaysiete
diophantine
I think the 130 will work with anything line level. Below are some examples using the 158 and 144 waveforms. You can see that it has a certain way of dealing with rising and falling edges.





diophantine
So the top trace is the output, and the bottom trace is the input? The raw oscillators are really too fast to make a good test of this, I'd think, and (probably as a result) those outputs look strange.

I imagine that I'll have built one of these before the 170/171 become available, so I can test it out with my gear in advance. cool
diophantine
Are the 112 and 123 (and presumably 114 and 146) the only ones that you expect to use the 9mm pots?
lasesentaysiete
diophantine wrote:
Are the 112 and 123 (and presumably 114 and 146) the only ones that you expect to use the 9mm pots?


Yes. They were(are) used in order to ease assembly.
guitarfool
And the 112, 123, 155 & 196 are now available at modularaddict It's peanut butter jelly time! nanners Rockin' Banana!
lasesentaysiete
I just uploaded the heretofore elusive 155 and 196 schematics to the website, too.

SlayerBadger!
diophantine
My latest order from modularaddict arrived yesterday! Unfortunately I didn't get home until late & have spent most of today hanging out with a fellow wiggler and a bunch of banana cables (fun) and cleaning the house (not fun).

But I do have a question... should we lacquer the touch panel PCB on the 112a? I know this is recommended for most (if not all) touch panels for the 200 series clones. And if so, do you have any specific recommendations?
Leverkusen
The new modules do look great in the modular addict shop - I am looking forward to see them available in the european shop too! It's peanut butter jelly time!

Ediit: ...and hopefully the 16-staged 112 will eventually emerge then. zombie
guitarfool
There is an error on the BOM for the 155 - R27 is listed twice, both as 6.8k and 100k. R27 should be 100k. I don't know why I didn't see it when I was populating the 100k resistors, that R27 was already populated! I discovered it while trying to figure out why mine wasn't working right. The negative slope was non-existent on both sides. When I discovered that I had 6.8k for R27, I thought that that was the problem - made sense since it is in parallel with the integrator cap! After replacing R27 with 100k, it seemed a bit better, but the negative slope controls and trimmers still do nothing, so I think there is another issue somewhere. As best I can tell, the BOM and schematic are the same except for the double listing for R27.
lasesentaysiete
guitarfool
I am not sure how or why, but there are indeed two R27 markings. The difference between them is that one has an asterisk (R*27).

R27 on the PCB is R13 on the schematic (6k8).

R*27 on the PCB is R27 on the schematic (100k).

Let me know if this helps.
lasesentaysiete
diophantine wrote:

But I do have a question... should we lacquer the touch panel PCB on the 112a? I know this is recommended for most (if not all) touch panels for the 200 series clones. And if so, do you have any specific recommendations?


I did not apply any type of coating to the keypad.

What does the coating do?
lasesentaysiete
Leverkusen wrote:
The new modules do look great in the modular addict shop - I am looking forward to see them available in the european shop too! It's peanut butter jelly time!


DHL says today Rockin' Banana!
guitarfool
lasesentaysiete wrote:
guitarfool
I am not sure how or why, but there are indeed two R27 markings. The difference between them is that one has an asterisk (R*27).

R27 on the PCB is R13 on the schematic (6k8).

R*27 on the PCB is R27 on the schematic (100k).

Let me know if this helps.


That explains everything. I had R27 = 6.8k (fixed) and R27/13 = 100k (now changed to 6.8k). Works as it should now! Thanks! applause
diophantine
lasesentaysiete wrote:
I did not apply any type of coating to the keypad.

What does the coating do?

A few things... protecting the surface from corrosion, making cleaning easier, and apparently also improving pressure sensitivity.

It is discussed in a couple threads:
https://www.muffwiggler.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=193438
https://www.muffwiggler.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=160422

I've seen it mentioned elsewhere, too, including:
https://modularsynthesis.com/roman/buchla216/216tcvs.htm
lasesentaysiete
diophantine
Seems like a good idea to lacquer the keypad. I have no recommendations, though. I will try it out and report back.
Leverkusen
lasesentaysiete wrote:
Leverkusen wrote:
The new modules do look great in the modular addict shop - I am looking forward to see them available in the european shop too! It's peanut butter jelly time!


DHL says today Rockin' Banana!


Yay! Just ordered the 123, which is the last module to fill my first case. Also I just got an shipping confirmation from Sowter. Have to gather some wood now...

SlayerBadger!
diophantine
Just finished up my 196 and 155, and they are working fine! Thanks for the 155 correction - I couldn't sleep so I was up at 4am finishing stuffing resistors. ;-)

I haven't tried to calibrate them yet. The 155 should be simple. The 196 is super close without trimming anything - the waves look identical except that the ϕ2 output is maybe .2V higher in amplitude than ϕ1.

Will be curious to hear the results of lacquering the 112a. Thanks!
diophantine
Perhaps I'm crazy tonight (I did just lose a 470R resistor... can't find it anywhere!), but where is C10 on the 123 PCB? I only see C1 & C2 up top, and C3-C9 between the eight stages at the bottom of the PCB.
lasesentaysiete
Glad to hear that you guys are making progress on the new modules.


diophantine wrote:
where is C10 on the 123 PCB?


My mistake. There is no C10.
diophantine
Ok, thanks!

And how are the sequencer LEDs wired up, polarity-wise?
lasesentaysiete
diophantine wrote:


And how are the sequencer LEDs wired up, polarity-wise?


The white mark on the Dialight led is the "+" terminal.

The circular pad of the footprint is the "+" leg of the LED.

The square pad of the footprint is the "-" leg of the LED.
diophantine
Thanks! That's what I suspected, but wanted to make sure. Hopefully I can finish it up tonight...
guitarfool
I noticed on little issue with final assembly of the 123. There are 2 solder pads under the bottom row of pots, that fall under the support tabs of the pots. 2 tabs on each 9mm pot in the bottom row should be bent up to prevent shorts.

[/img]
diophantine
guitarfool This is mentioned (w/pics) on the final page of the BOM.

Quote:
Row "C" potentiometers:
Certain brands (Alpha, etc.) of 9mm potentiometers need to be modified in order to avoid potential problems with Row "C" voltage output. If the potentiometer you are using has 2 support tabs on the underside of the body, remove them.


Not sure yet if I want to clip mine or bend them.
guitarfool
Obviously I didn't read the BOM too carefully d'oh!

On second look, my BOM didn't have that - just 2 pages. I just now downloaded the new BOM and saw it. Now I probably should go through and makes sure there weren't any component changes!
diophantine
My 123 is up and running & works great! thumbs up
Leverkusen
diophantine wrote:
My 123 is up and running & works great! thumbs up


Great to hear that! applause

I just ordered some aluminium for the panels, which should arrive at monday. Then I will finally start the built...I can say that I am a bit excited about it and seeing all your progress really is a thing for me!
lasesentaysiete
Rockin' Banana!

diophantine wrote:
My 123 is up and running & works great! thumbs up
guitarfool
diophantine wrote:
My 123 is up and running & works great! thumbs up


Mine too. And the 112 worked from the start as well. Starting to look like a "system"

diophantine
guitarfool wrote:
Mine too. And the 112 worked from the start as well. Starting to look like a "system"

Wow - looks fantastic!!

I just finished giving the 112 keyboard PCB a coat of polyurethane, hopefully it'll work fine once it is dry and I've connected it. Just got confirmation that my cabinets are shipping today or Monday. Looks like the bottom part is a little taller than I expected, but that shouldn't be a problem.

lasesentaysiete - can you confirm if the power distro PCB will be available in the next batch, and any ETA or details on that?
diophantine
My 112a works, too!

I don't know if the polyurethane coat helps, but it doesn't seem to hurt and seems like it'll keep it clean. I did two coats (after cleaning with isopropyl alcohol) with a spray can of the Varathane Polyurethane (gloss): https://www.rustoleum.com/product-catalog/consumer-brands/varathane/ul timate-polyurethane-water-based ($8.50 at Home Depot)
diophantine
Regarding the 190, I have some practical questions regarding wiring/mounting... (and yes, I'm probably over-thinking things)

I know you recommend shielded cable. I was planning on buying a couple decent shielded RCA cables and cutting them in half, rather than wiring my own. Should be fine, right?

How should I wire up the shields? I rarely use shielded cables. I guess test if the shield is already tied to ground, and if so, ignore it, and otherwise, tie it to ground?

Since I'll be mounting the transformers in the cabinet, should I wire everything through the PCB, or is there a benefit to wiring things directly to the transformer, especially for between the transformer & the reverb tank? (I was planning to install 1 tank + 1 transformer on each side of the cabinet. But if shorter wiring to the transformers would be better, I'll mount them to the module.)

Should I mount the reverb tanks directly to the wood, or should I use some of those rubber reverb tank washers? I suspect the washers are unnecessary (and are mostly only useful in an amplifier or other cabinet that will vibrate), but just curious since I have some...
lasesentaysiete
guitarfool wrote:
Starting to look like a "system"


Excellent work! applause
lasesentaysiete
diophantine wrote:

lasesentaysiete - can you confirm if the power distro PCB will be available in the next batch, and any ETA or details on that?


The order from Modular Addict has not been placed, yet, but that is the intention.
lasesentaysiete
diophantine
Yes, tie the shields to ground when you make the cables. This should be done at both ends.

I only have experience wiring everything through the PCB. I cannot say if there is any benefit to wiring directly to the transformer. I doubt it, though.

I mounted my reverb tanks directly to the wood of the cabinet. Try to make sure that the tank forms a tight seal against the mounting surface.
Leverkusen
lasesentaysiete wrote:
diophantine wrote:

lasesentaysiete - can you confirm if the power distro PCB will be available in the next batch, and any ETA or details on that?


The order from Modular Addict has not been placed, yet, but that is the intention.


I might have missed that, but what is your take on the distro boards?

I did not follow your power connector proposal from the BOM's because I found them way to expensive and thought I would just wire everything directly, especially since there is just +15 and +-0 (apart from the rare +24).

But of course a nice board would facilitate this. Another thought was to use bus bars.

Regarding the reverb tanks - I always wonder if different models are not designed to be mounted bottom up or bottom down? I think I read this somewhere regarding a special guitar amp spring but forgot where this was and did not find anything in the specs of the ones I ordered. But I think I have had a tank with the Springray I once owned, where the "spring mechanism" inside the enclosure touched the enclosure with plastic standoffs/washers in between when the open part was at the top (as mounted over head in the top of a case) and free hanging when the open part was a the bottom (as mounted on the bottom of a case). Was this understandable? Both orientations did sound okay to me but also different and I wasn't sure how it would be done 'right'. hmmm.....

@guitarfool Your system (sic!) does indeed look beautiful! eek! love applause Do you already have some audio snippets to share?
lasesentaysiete
Leverkusen wrote:

I might have missed that, but what is your take on the distro boards?



Nothing special, just a simple 15v/0v PCB with the option to add a DC/DC converter for 24v.

guitarfool
Leverkusen wrote:
...But of course a nice board would facilitate this. Another thought was to use bus bars.

Regarding the reverb tanks - I always wonder if different models are not designed to be mounted bottom up or bottom down? I think I read this somewhere regarding a special guitar amp spring but forgot where this was and did not find anything in the specs of the ones I ordered. But I think I have had a tank with the Springray I once owned, where the "spring mechanism" inside the enclosure touched the enclosure with plastic standoffs/washers in between when the open part was at the top (as mounted over head in the top of a case) and free hanging when the open part was a the bottom (as mounted on the bottom of a case). Was this understandable? Both orientations did sound okay to me but also different and I wasn't sure how it would be done 'right'. hmmm.....

@guitarfool Your system (sic!) does indeed look beautiful! eek! love applause Do you already have some audio snippets to share?


Buchla, and IIRC CBS, used terminal strips for power distribution. I used Edacs to be compatible with my other 200 series modules.

I remember that as well. There were some reverb tanks that were not supposed to be mounted vertically.

Thanks! Here is a snippet using most of what I have so far:

[s]https://soundcloud.com/user-558302218/123-112a-test[/s]
lasesentaysiete
Nice sounds guitarfool SlayerBadger!


Modulargrid has now added "La 67" to the list of manufacturers in the Buchla category. I uploaded some modules, too.

https://www.modulargrid.net/u/vendors/view/758
ST.P
guitarfool wrote:
diophantine wrote:
My 123 is up and running & works great! thumbs up


Mine too. And the 112 worked from the start as well. Starting to look like a "system"



@guitarfool: looks great! thumbs up

@lasesentaysiete: i want to place a panel order at Schaeffer and would like to add the 123-panel - is the .fpd file already available ?
lasesentaysiete
ST.P
I will get the newest files up by Monday.
diophantine

Two of these arrived today!

(Many thanks to David T. at nice-racks.com - always great to work with!)

Now I just need to order some PSUs and await the distro boards! Though I'll probably go ahead and get the reverb set up in one of the upper cabinets over the next week...
lasesentaysiete
diophantine
Looks like it is going to be fun!
SlayerBadger!
guitarfool
Oooh, very nice!
Leverkusen
guitarfool wrote:


Thanks! Here is a snippet using most of what I have so far:

[s]https://soundcloud.com/user-558302218/123-112a-test[/s]


Sounds great - Thank you for sharing! I am looking forward to making my first sounds and tunes with the 100. It's step by step but eventually my 'panels' did arrive now:





@lasesentaysiete, I remember seeing those distro boards before now. I have 24V PSU so I would not make use of the left half of it but will try direct/star wiring instead - perhaps therefore I just totally forgot about them. d'oh!

Nice case too, @diophantine, also enough space for power and tanks inside.

I have not yet started planning mine because I am not confident how I place here. The space/board I have reserved for my cases seems to be just a bit too small and I might go for the case/touchinterface-boat solution, too - instead of the two angled rows in front.

How deep are you all planing/building your upright cases to fit everything in it. By now the Frequency Shifter is the deepest module, right?
diophantine
Is it only the reverb return that needs to be shielded? The reason I ask is because the transformer green + brown wires are unshielded, go back to the PCB, and then goes directly to the reverb tank. So approximately half of the transformer -> reverb tank run is unshielded.
lasesentaysiete
diophantine wrote:
Is it only the reverb return that needs to be shielded? The reason I ask is because the transformer green + brown wires are unshielded, go back to the PCB, and then goes directly to the reverb tank. So approximately half of the transformer -> reverb tank run is unshielded.


I just used the stock transformer leads (i.e. not shielded cable). In fact, I noticed the most difference with shielded vs. unshielded on the reverb tank outputs. I may be mis-remembering, but I think the outputs were most affected.
diophantine
Thanks, I figured that the reverb return cable would he the most important.
The transformer leads are too short when mounting them to the cabinet, so in deciding if I want to mount them to the module, use longer wires, or wire the transformer directly to the tank. Too many choices! hihi

edit: do you know if terminal blocks fit the pads for the transformer leads on the PCB?
lasesentaysiete
diophantine wrote:

The transformer leads are too short when mounting them to the cabinet,

Really? How short are they? Mine were plenty long enough.

diophantine wrote:

edit: do you know if terminal blocks fit the pads for the transformer leads on the PCB?

I do not know. Sorry.
diophantine
lasesentaysiete wrote:
diophantine wrote:

The transformer leads are too short when mounting them to the cabinet,

Really? How short are they?

Probably 15-20 cm.
If yours are a lot longer that would explain why I keep overthinking this. Mr. Green
lasesentaysiete
diophantine
Mine are certainly longer than 15cm. Probably closer to 25-30cm. Short cables could limit the placement of the module in the cabinet. I have my 190 mounted in the upper right-hand corner, with the transformers mounted to the side wall of the cabinet.

I would have thought that anywhere along the top or bottom rows, or extreme left/right of the middle row in your cabinet would work.

If you do have to extend the cable lengths, I think you could just splice some stranded leads where necessary. Maybe use silver stranded audiophile cable for maximum fidelity? Just kidding.
diophantine
Sounds good! But I always insist upon cable insulated with mermaid scales...

Will play around with placement tomorrow and see what seems most reasonable. I could always mount a dual terminal block inside (like on the original) in case I ever decide to move it.

Thanks!
Leverkusen
It seems that this is my first project that uses a PSU different from the standard Doepfer/Synthesizer.com ones, built for modular synths.

Does anyone has a hint how I am supposed to make a connection to these prongs?

hmmm.....

lasesentaysiete
Leverkusen
+S and -S are "sensing" terminals, I am pretty sure. So:


NB: I am not an expert.
Leverkusen
Ah, I have not worded it right...yes S+ and S- are sensing terminals and should be wired like that it they not already are or if you don't need them to sense Voltage deeper in the system when using longer connections and needing higher accuracy (I think).

What I meant was more the physical connection as there are no terminals, solder lugs or just PCB holes. Is it practical to just solder the wire to those things? I am afraid of getting cold joints with those massive plugs and my tiny iron. woah
lasesentaysiete
Leverkusen
I strip the cable and leave about 5mm of bare wire exposed, and then insert the exposed wire into the top of the connectors of the psu. It does take a little bit longer to solder, but it should be possible. I have not had problems with continuity or cold joints.
Leverkusen
Thank you for the advice - no I see that they are even more or less pre-tinned inside. Also after a look into the manual we get corrected that in this case the sense connectors must not connected to load. thumbs up

Further progress was made by unboxing the parcels I got from mouser, tayda, banzai and musikding over the last weeks and then sorting the huge leap of components into small boxes. Musikding send their parts in lots of unmarked sachets, which is okay for IC's and transistors but cumbersome for passives in general. With diodes and small ceramics it is beyound cumbersome... very frustrating
lasesentaysiete
Leverkusen
It is a lot of work. Hopefully worth it!
nocone
Noob question here, but what order of modules would you recommend to build a solid basis and further expand over time?
lasesentaysiete
nocone wrote:
Noob question here, but what order of modules would you recommend to build a solid basis and further expand over time?


The obvious answer is to build all of them, along with multiples of your favourites w00t

I started from scratch and did just what you propose: basics first, more specific modules afterwards.

6 space system: 158, 140, 180, 110, 192, 106.

8 space system, add any 2 of the following: 111, 160, 194, 156, 144, 123 (occupies 2spaces).
lasesentaysiete
191, 130, 172, 185 stock has arrived at Modular Addict. We should see these listed on their website within the next few days. In the meantime, I am finishing up the BOMs.

I have also been working on a new module idea. Here is a rough sketch. Let me know what you think:


guitarfool
lasesentaysiete wrote:
191, 130, 172, 185 stock has arrived at Modular Addict. We should see these listed on their website within the next few days. In the meantime, I am finishing up the BOMs.


It's peanut butter jelly time! nanners Rockin' Banana!

lasesentaysiete wrote:

I have also been working on a new module idea. Here is a rough sketch. Let me know what you think:




That would complement the Source of Uncertainty nicely. Is there a pulse input, or does it just generate ideas randomly?
papz
I wonder why no one released such a useful and well thought module sooner, many people obviously need it. You should offer it in eurorack format too. Mr. Green
lasesentaysiete
guitarfool wrote:
Is there a pulse input[?]


Good idea razz
djs
lasesentaysiete wrote:
I have also been working on a new module idea. Here is a rough sketch. Let me know what you think:


I know it's a joke, but I've been thinking of a module that displays random entries ifrom Brian Eno's "oblique strategies". Would be very cool if it was voltage controlled smile
guitarfool
lasesentaysiete wrote:
guitarfool wrote:
Is there a pulse input[?]


Good idea razz


Damn, it works!
guitarfool
As is, it's a great idea for use as a filler / blank panel. Same goes for the model 199 Silence Generator
diophantine
lasesentaysiete wrote:
191, 130, 172, 185 stock has arrived at Modular Addict. We should see these listed on their website within the next few days.

w00t I see they added the power distro PCBs. I'm gonna have to wait to order everything, since I'll be out of town by the time these would arrive... cry
diophantine
...aaaand, they're all up at ModularAddict now. Wish I could just buy 'em now! But unfortunately the cats aren't good about bringing packages inside, the catsitter doesn't come every day, and the new postman is an idiot and tries to make packages more visible from the street. hmmm.....

Between the 185 and 191 this should be the 7th level of trimpot hell! Mr. Green



So is the 101 a clone of the mythic red panel? hihi Wouldn't mind some blanks, if they could be acquired cheap via MA while I patiently hope for a 107 and 195!

EDIT: while MA added the 191, it is now marked as out-of-stock. Was there some issue with it, or did guitarfool buy them all?
guitarfool
diophantine wrote:

EDIT: while MA added the 191, it is now marked as out-of-stock. Was there some issue with it, or did guitarfool buy them all?


Hey, I only bought one (I thought about getting 2, though).
diophantine
Haha. Looks like it was an inventory issue in their webstore... they are back for sale today. w00t
delayed
How to the panels look from modularaddict? Screen printed AL? Nice thickness?
diophantine
delayed wrote:
How to the panels look from modularaddict? Screen printed AL? Nice thickness?

Probably screen-printed aluminum, though I am not 100% certain on the printing method. White layer, silkscreen or maybe enamel? and then blue printing on top.

There's some occasional very small flaws in the white, and occasionally the edge of a letter in the printing is a bit faded, but nothing enough to bother my OCD and otherwise seems solidly done.

Approx. 1/16" thick.
guitarfool
Mouser is out of the rotary switch needed for the 191 (it wasn't me that bought them out), and the only other place I could find was Digikey - with a minimum order quanity of 25 eek!

Mouser is guessing at getting another small batch of them near end of June. sad banana
diophantine
I noticed that, too, about the rotary switch at both Mouser & Digikey. I didn't take much time to look elsewhere, but wasn't immediately seeing anyone else offering it.

Back to trying to mark pilot holes for modules on my cabinets. Can't get things quite perfect! I might use some thinner screws (M2 or #2) to give the modules a bit of play for alignment before I crank them down.
lasesentaysiete
guitarfool wrote:
Mouser is out of the rotary switch needed for the 191


Bummer. I bought mine months ago. I think the minimum order from Digikey still comes with a wait. Not worth it.
lasesentaysiete
diophantine wrote:


Back to trying to mark pilot holes for modules on my cabinets.


Try dry fitting all the modules at once. I am using M2.5 screws. They allow for a decent amount of play, just make sure the screw head is big enough.
diophantine
lasesentaysiete wrote:
Try dry fitting all the modules at once.

Yep, that's what I did... thought I had it perfect, but one row of marks is too close to the edge of the wood. Might work if I move that row up 1.5mm.
yan6
Any eta on the 112 front panel designs
lasesentaysiete
yan6 wrote:
Any eta on the 112 front panel designs


it is up now. Note that Schaeffer will not allow a 1.5mm panel of this size. The 112a fpd file is 2mm thickness.

As usual, any discrepancies, let me know.
lasesentaysiete
FYI 191 schematic is now up on my website.
Leverkusen
I just wondered if the latest batch of PCB's will find a way to the european shop too? Or are you holding off due to the rotary issue?
lasesentaysiete
Leverkusen wrote:
I just wondered if the latest batch of PCB's will find a way to the european shop too? Or are you holding off due to the rotary issue?

I should have them in about 1 week.

Edit: Except for the 191. I will order those with the next batch.
Leverkusen
lasesentaysiete wrote:
Leverkusen wrote:
I just wondered if the latest batch of PCB's will find a way to the european shop too? Or are you holding off due to the rotary issue?

I should have them in about 1 week.

Edit: Except for the 191. I will order those with the next batch.


Great, good to know!

Regarding the 191 - that switch, that is not to get at mouser atm, is it used in other modules too? I am about to order one and it would be a pity to need another one later...
lasesentaysiete
Leverkusen wrote:


Regarding the 191 - that switch,[...] is it used in other modules too?


Luckily, no.

May I ask where you found it available?
Leverkusen
Oh, sorry - should have said I am about to preorder one. smile

I have looked over the webs a bit but neither found that one nor a reasonable alternative. Leadtime varies between 8 and 10 weeks everywhere, so I just hope there will be some this year. Otherwise it seems I have to disassemble one of the old tanks I have in the garage...
lasesentaysiete
Leverkusen
Unfortunately, I advise against using a different switch. This is because the spacing is made very tight in order for everything to fit correctly, and a different (bigger) switch will not fit.
sanders
lasesentaysiete wrote:
yan6 wrote:
Any eta on the 112 front panel designs


it is up now. Note that Schaeffer will not allow a 1.5mm panel of this size. The 112a fpd file is 2mm thickness.


You can special request any thickness you want in the order notes. It won’t show up in the FPD file, but they will make it if you request it.
sanders
Does anyone know, are 200r panels 1.5? For some reason, I always thought they were 1mm.

I live in the US, and have bought a few modules from Modular Addict; the panels are beautiful, but I didn’t realize they were white. Maybe it’s anal but I sort of rather keep a consistent look with other 200r panels. I appreciate that that the panel designs are published. I suppose I’ll eventually make brushed aluminum versions.
lasesentaysiete
sanders wrote:
Does anyone know, are 200r panels 1.5? For some reason, I always thought they were 1mm.



Yes, 200(r) should be ~1,5mm. I think 1mm is too thin.

I will mention the panel colour issue to Modular Addict and see if they cannot update the product description.
sanders
lasesentaysiete wrote:

I will mention the panel colour issue to Modular Addict and see if they cannot update the product description.


I could have asked, they’re not 200 modules. I’m excited to get them so easily and inexpensively. I would’ve bought it anyway, and will be buying more. I think they’re great, and if I end up with a system of just 100 modules, I’ll use the white panels.
lasesentaysiete
sanders
PCBs are available at my website.
diophantine
sanders wrote:
...and when I end up with a system of just 100 modules, I’ll use the white panels.

fixed. hihi
lasesentaysiete
For anyone not on my website's mailing list: PCBs are in stock for the 172, 130, and 185 modules.
Leverkusen
lasesentaysiete wrote:
For anyone not on my website's mailing list: PCBs are in stock for the 172, 130, and 185 modules.


Great - will the 110 also be restocked somewhere in the future (not in a hurry but eventually I will need a second one)
lasesentaysiete
Leverkusen
I will get some more 110 PCBs with my next order.

In other news, I will be building the 114, 171, and 157 circuits in the coming days.

ST.P
lasesentaysiete wrote:
Leverkusen
I will get some more 110 PCBs with my next order.

In other news, I will be building the 114, 171, and 157 circuits in the coming days.


Cool, will need a second 110 too!
... and the 114 with blue touchplate... Guinness ftw!
diophantine
lasesentaysiete
Were you able to get the original panel design for the 157? Or did you design your own?
lasesentaysiete
diophantine
Yes, it is the original design. I was sent a photo of one. Luckily, the panel is simple enough to not have to rely on the quality of the photo!
lasesentaysiete
this gives a basic idea:

diophantine
lasesentaysiete wrote:
diophantine
Yes, it is the original design. I was sent a photo of one. Luckily, the panel is simple enough to not have to rely on the quality of the photo!

Ok, thanks! I wasn't sure if any actually existed. The panel design looks like what I would imagine, but I wasn't sure if the outputs would be multed or not.

I just ordered another 157 today from MA (along with the power distro boards & other new stuff... finally!), and am trying to decide if 2x 157 + 1x 156 will be enough! The 157 is such a necessity with all of the "int/ext" CV inputs.

That's great about the 114!

Does the 171 need any special transformers, or are those only on the 170?

Since you are doing some of the more obscure modules, have you given any new consideration to the 176 Dual Hiss Cutter? https://www.dropbox.com/sh/3vtscdga0oa43do/AABnftjbtT2aekv8PRsBIW_0a?p review=IMG_20140425_111702_474.jpg

Also, I know that before I was very encouraging about doing the 16-key version of the 112, but wanted to say that I'm now not thinking it is necessary for my system - the 12-key 112a seems sufficient. (But if you do the larger 112, I will still probably pick one up, and maybe put it in a skiff to use with other gear.) But, I still do really need a 146! SlayerBadger!

As always, looking forward to more building ahead! And getting all this stuff installed... everything got delayed with being out-of-town & some plumbing emergencies... very frustrating

(btw, did you get my small corrections to the 130 Mouser cart that I emailed the other week?)
diophantine
FYI builders - you might want to check TTI for trimpots before ordering from Mouser. (TTI actually owns Mouser...) You have to order in quantities of 10 or more, but (for instance) for the 1k trimpots (3296W-1-102LF):
20x @ mouser: $38.00
20x @ TTI: $17.34

(shipping is a flat $7.50 for ground in the US)

https://www.ttiinc.com/
lasesentaysiete
diophantine wrote:


Does the 171 need any special transformers, or are those only on the 170?

No transformers needed for the 171. The 170 uses two Sowter 1585 transformers. They are expensive.

diophantine wrote:
Since you are doing some of the more obscure modules, have you given any new consideration to the 176 Dual Hiss Cutter?
I thought about it. Maybe? I am not chomping at the bit for it, though.

diophantine wrote:
I still do really need a 146! SlayerBadger!


The next 3 modules available will be the 114, 171, 157 (as mentioned above). From there, I will most likely do the 112b, 146, 165, and 102 in one go.

That will pretty much complete my 100 series mission. Other modules will get done, but possibly at a slower rate. I will try the 148 this summer, and there are also a few other things planned that may prove interesting.
yan6
Any chance for a 107 to go with the 114? I would also love a 176
lasesentaysiete
I understood the 176 to be a bi-product of the noise associated with recording to tape, and therefore di not consider it worthy. I may have to rethink that.

107 and 195 are two schematics that I have not managed to get a hold of. If I can get them somehow, of course I will make PCBs!
lasesentaysiete
After correcting an error in the schematic and an absent-minded omission of my own, the 114 is up and running:



diophantine
Looks great! Very pretty jack wiring, too. cool

What pot & trimpot values does it use? And are the pots the Alpha 9mm ones? Just curious as I might be doing some bulk orders this weekend
lasesentaysiete
diophantine

Thanks!


9mm, correct.
decay pots are a50k
cv pots are b10k
trimpots are 20k
diophantine
lasesentaysiete wrote:
9mm, correct.
decay pots are a50k
cv pots are b10k

Thanks!
And of course, Tayda is out of stock on those. I swear that their sales always start when they sell out of some common value of 9mm pot. confused

I know you haven't built them yet, and you don't know if you'll build them all, but if you have the schematics handy, do you know what pots are used by the 148 (can't tell from the schematic I have), 170 (presumably A50k?), 171 and 176? I figure I'll buy the rest of the 16mm pots I'll need for any & all future modules that I may build...

Thanks again!
lasesentaysiete
diophantine
171 & 170 use a50k

148 is b10k & a50k

176 no idea

I noticed the out of stock b10k at Tayda, too. 146 and 112b combined are 80 x b10k pots smile
guitarfool
Okay, I just finished the 191 - except for the rotary switch which is still a month away cry

I found a couple of discrepancies in the BOM. The 4 DPDT switches should be SPDT - I used the C&K (Mouser 611-7101-002). There should also be 4 Large Davies and 3 small Davies knobs. (edit: 3 small Davies and a Chicken Head, or 4 small Davies)

Oh, and don't put R81 where RB1 goes like I did very frustrating
diophantine
guitarfool wrote:
The 4 DPDT switches should be SPDT - I used the C&K (Mouser 611-7101-002).

I totally missed that in the BOM, but knew they'd be SPDTs. Thankfully Mouser screwed up my last order & sent me 4 extra NKK ones. hihi

guitarfool wrote:
There should also be 4 Large Davies and 3 small Davies knobs. (edit: 3 small Davies and a Chicken Head, or 4 small Davies)

Speaking of switches & knobs... did you cut down the switch shafts on your 140, or did you use spacers, or just use a chickenhead?
lasesentaysiete
Thanks for the BOM corrections, guitarfool. I will sort that tomorrow.


diophantine
I remember now that I had cut down the shaft of the rotary knob on my 140 build. I cannot confirm having used the switch listed in the BOM, though, so I will check that tomorrow, too.
Virusinstaller
If you become happy with your mission of 100 modules will you start 200 series???
lasesentaysiete
Virusinstaller wrote:
If you become happy with your mission of 100 modules will you start 200 series???


At the moment, I have no such plans. Other synths interest me more.
diophantine
I'm happy to wait until my wallet has recovered before lasesentaysiete makes any new projects available!
Everything is quite reasonable, price-wise, with this 100-series system, but building up a 50-space system still ain't cheap! eek!

But hopefully first someone can send him schematics for the 107 and 195!

FYI kids, be careful with these Dialight LED lamps. My usual advice is "don't overtighten", but with these it is more like "just barely tighten." Maybe I had a bad one, but it was tightening up weird and just exploded across the house (I've only found half of it). So there goes $5.19.
sanders
So, is everyone waiting for Mouser to re-stock the Grayhill 4pdt switch for the 191? Or is there some other secret source?

I guess there are other switches with the same 30 deg rotation?, not nearly as cool as the Grayhill military grade ones. I’ll probably wait.

Edit:

I wonder if this one would work just as well, it’s a GRAYHILL 71B30-1-6-2N:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/GRAYHILL-71B30-01-6-02N-Rotary-Switch-6PDT-Pa nel-Mount-1-4-Shaft-New/153369409887?hash=item23b587795f:g:hwIAAMXQW7V RFUmx
lasesentaysiete
sanders wrote:
So, is everyone waiting for Mouser to re-stock the Grayhill 4pdt switch for the 191? Or is there some other secret source?


The switch needed is 8PDT. I have not found another source that stocks it.


sanders wrote:
I guess there are other switches with the same 30 deg rotation?, not nearly as cool as the Grayhill military grade ones. I’ll probably wait.


I can only suggest waiting. It is unlikely that there exists a cheaper option than the Grayhill that actually fits the PCB cutout.
sanders
Ah, I see; guess the rotary is 4pdt on 2 decks, adding up to 8 poles. Many places on the inter web list it as a 4pdt.

Maybe I’ll try an 8pdt push-button or toggle in meantime. I’ve been so curious about this filter since I first saw photos years ago.
yan6
It looks like there is a pretty serious alignment issue with the 155 and fpd front panels.





You can see the whole pcb is tilted and the top right hand screw, when looking at the front panel doesnt line up at all.
Spliffgroen
Just finished the whole topic, couple of times. Great work guys.
I think its time to make a plan myself for the 100 system. Always preferred the sound above the 200 series. [/img]
Spliffgroen
If... all known modules are completed.. if.. how do you guys think about expanding the 100 series with the 100 series philosophy ? .. excuse me if its to off-topic
Spliffgroen


Someone knows these two? never figured out what these are called / what they do. [/img]
lasesentaysiete
yan6
I just had a quick look at the .fpd file. It seemed like just the bottom left mounting hole was a bit off. Can you try lining up the holes without scewing any standoffs in? I think 3 should be fine, and one slightly off.
lasesentaysiete
Spliffgroen wrote:


Someone knows these two? never figured out what these are called / what they do. [/img]


I think I read somewhere here that those were never real module, only mock-ups.
Spliffgroen
lasesentaysiete wrote:
Spliffgroen wrote:


Someone knows these two? never figured out what these are called / what they do. [/img]


I think I read somewhere here that those were never real module, only mock-ups.


First things first; Great work you doing sir!

ay! sad banana was hoping for some buchla stuff i didn't heard off. They look interesting tho.
sanders
Spliffgroen wrote:

Someone knows these two? never figured out what these are called / what they do. [/img]


I read somewhere or other that this publicity photo was made before the 100 series was fully fleshed out, and that many of the modules pictured were little more than mock-ups to present the image of a complete integrated system; so, these particular modules were just panel concepts at the time, and in the end didn’t materialize into functional modules.

It’s unfortunate in a way as they’re some of the coolest looking 100 designs. That said, there’s plenty of other cool looking designs in the 100 series for sure. I love the all the curving, flowing lines that give the 100 a kind of floral art-nouveau appearance, characteristics that were dropped in the 200 series.
sanders
How do you guys go about taking the PDF and turning it into a FPD?
lasesentaysiete
sanders wrote:
How do you guys go about taking the PDF and turning it into a FPD?

I have .fpd files on my website.
sanders
lasesentaysiete wrote:
sanders wrote:
How do you guys go about taking the PDF and turning it into a FPD?

I have .fpd files on my website.


Wow, that’s magnanimous of you. You’ve really done an incredible amount of legwork on these projects. It’s so awesome that you have mouser carts in addition to the BOM; you’ve got a first class product here. I really appreciate all the effort you’ve made : )

On a related note— I’m pretty sure I read someplace that Schaeffer can do brushed aluminum now, before the graphics are printed.
yan6
lasesentaysiete wrote:
yan6
I just had a quick look at the .fpd file. It seemed like just the bottom left mounting hole was a bit off. Can you try lining up the holes without scewing any standoffs in? I think 3 should be fine, and one slightly off.


Were you able to correct the file, I will have a few more of these to order.

Could I safely open up the hole on the pcb to offset it?
lasesentaysiete
yan6
The corrected file should be up now. Check it against your panel. As for moving the mounting hole laterally, the only trace in that area is between R3 and R4 on the outer edge of the PCB. You should be able to spot it.
yan6
thumbs up

When will the 191 be up on your site

Were you planning on releasing the 114 as well? Just curious about its panel size, will it be the same size as the 112. Im making the wood box for the 112 right now and would love to get a head start on the 114 hyper

Also were there plans for the 16 step version of the 123 (cant remember the number right now)
lasesentaysiete
yan6
I will get the 191 up soon. I will also order PCBs soon.

The 114 is also coming. Modular Addict should have stock next week. I will have PCBs shortly after. It is the same size as the 112

The 146 (16 step 123) and 112b (16 key 112) are also in the works.
lasesentaysiete
sanders
Cheers and thanks for the support thumbs up
Leverkusen
lasesentaysiete wrote:

I will get the 191 up soon. I will also order PCBs soon.

The 114 is also coming. Modular Addict should have stock next week. I will have PCBs shortly after. It is the same size as the 112

The 146 (16 step 123) and 112b (16 key 112) are also in the works.


Thanks a lot! I know it's more work and extra expenses but I really appreciate that you provide the 16 key/step versions too!

It's peanut butter jelly time! nanners It's peanut butter jelly time!
guitarfool
Grayhill 71B30-02-4-02N switches for the 191 are back in stock at Mouser - they just shipped mine. Only 21 in stock!

706-71B30-02-4-02N
lasesentaysiete
I will complete the 191 build information today or tomorrow. Calibration is relatively straightforward, but takes some time.
lasesentaysiete
191 calibration and wiring guide is up on my website now. I hope it is clear for everyone. Do not hesitate to ask questions smile
diophantine
Still need to order the parts for the recent modules, but snagged the switch at Mouser while I could!

Currently planning on this as my system... '???' would be the 176 if it happens, otherwise, not sure what I'll put there (or somewhere else). And I'm keeping my fingers crossed that the 107 and 195 will materialize! I'll at least leave a blank for them. (Basically it is every module, except 2x of the 144, 156, 158, and 180).

Code:
160 194 106 175 190 | 172 102 196 148-148
158 158 111 192 110 | 191-191 185 107-107
144 180 180 156 155 | 144 156 157 195-195
--------------------+--------------------
140 146-146-146-146 | 140 123-123 ??? 130
112-112-112-112 165 | 114-114-114-114 171
lasesentaysiete
diophantine
nice layout thumbs up
lasesentaysiete
114, 157, 171 info is now available on my website. Modular Addict should have stock listed within the next few days.
yan6
What are the calibration instructions for the 112?
lasesentaysiete
yan6 wrote:
What are the calibration instructions for the 112?

I do not have mine to check, but what I remember is that one one trimmer is for the gate threshold and the other for pressure sensitivity. There is some interaction between the two, so keep that in mind. I wish I had more details, but it is pretty straightforward once you check it on the oscilloscope.

I will update with proper instructions once I get the 112b built.
yan6
I messed with it last night a bit and got them as best as I feel I could. I wasnt able to get the pressure above 10v without it sitting above 0v when no pressure was applied.
lasesentaysiete
yan6 wrote:
I messed with it last night a bit and got them as best as I feel I could. I wasnt able to get the pressure above 10v without it sitting above 0v when no pressure was applied.

Compared to the 114 pressure sensitivity, the 112 is not that good. It could possibly be improved by changing some values in that area of the circuit, but I have not tried. Others have mentioned treating the keypad, but again, I have not tried.
diophantine
The three new ones are now available via ModularAddict...
guitarfool
For the 114, the 10k linear pots are 9mm, right? (like these)

The link to Tayda on the BOM is for the larger ones hmmm.....
lasesentaysiete
guitarfool wrote:
For the 114, the 10k linear pots are 9mm, right? (like these)


Yes, you are right. Thanks for spotting that.

I have also added a note about removing the metal bits on the underside of the pots.
Spliffgroen
Quote:
lasesentaysiete
I was going true the schematic of the 180, I see that you've put a 22k for R22 instead of 2k2 like the CBS schematic. Is this by purpose or is it a mistake in the CBS Schematic?
lasesentaysiete
Spliffgroen wrote:
I was going true the schematic of the 180, I see that you've put a 22k for R22 instead of 2k2 like the CBS schematic. Is this by purpose or is it a mistake in the CBS Schematic?

Its a typo on my part. The CBS schematic is OK to use.
ophidian
That sounds gorgeous. I guess I need to get out the old soldering iron.
Spliffgroen
lasesentaysiete wrote:
Spliffgroen wrote:
I was going true the schematic of the 180, I see that you've put a 22k for R22 instead of 2k2 like the CBS schematic. Is this by purpose or is it a mistake in the CBS Schematic?

Its a typo on my part. The CBS schematic is OK to use.



Thanks for the quick response, bless that you located in Europe. I'll stick to a 2.2k then.
sanders
lasesentaysiete wrote:
Others have mentioned treating the keypad, but again, I have not tried.


Spraying on a lacquer finish on my 216r touch plate greatly improved the range of pressure sensitivity response.
diophantine
sanders wrote:
lasesentaysiete wrote:
Others have mentioned treating the keypad, but again, I have not tried.


Spraying on a lacquer finish on my 216r touch plate greatly improved the range of pressure sensitivity response.

I'm curious how much you used?

I did this on my 112a... two coats, each maybe about 4 seconds going back and forth across the PCB. Seems to work nicely (though I haven't used the pressure out much thus far, as I still have to mount everything in my cabinets), but I'm curious to know if others are having good results with more (or even less) lacquer.
sines
lasesentaysiete wrote:
diophantine wrote:
Any tips/pics re: the lamps & LDRs on the 192?
Should I use heat-shrink tubing, or have you found something better?
Should the lamp & LDR be touching, or how close should they be?


Heat shrink is ideal. You just have to make sure that the LDR is not exposed to external light. Put them as close together as possible.


diophantine wrote:
Also, any calibration instructions for the 110/111/144?

Thanks!


110: adjust the trimmers for quickest response time without any clicking noise. I used the 140 the sent pulses to the 110 for this. It works best if there is no audio input on the 110.

144:

1. Adjust R18 so that oscillation is within audible range. The circuit can oscillate at super high frequencies, or not at all, so you may have to adjust R18 quite a bit.

2. R4 sets the low frequency and R10 sets the high frequency. These two trimmers interact to some degree, so you may have to go back and forth some. Re-adjust R18 if you cannot get reasonable lowest/highest frequencies.

3. R36 sets the amplitude and also affects the AM. I set mine for the lowest amplitude (~1.8v pk-pk in my case) to try and match the 158 as closely as possible. AM still responds well.

I was able to get a a range of 5hz to 15khz on these. They can oscillate at higher frequencies, but you lose low end extension.

I will get the 111 instructions up soon.



Is there a complete repository of calibration procedures for all modules? I have scanned through the entire thread for 111 calibration, would be nice to know.. thanks!


Todd
lasesentaysiete
sines
I do not have a 111 handy , nor can I locate my notes on calibration. I built that module a while ago. You are right in expecting it to be easy to locate proper calibration instructions, so I apologize for not having that in order.

In any case, setting up the 111 is not difficult. It seems daunting with the 5 trimmers per side, but really there are 2 that are the main focus: R13 & R18. These are the "null adjustments". Straight away, I would go ahead and set the other 3 at about half way. I seem to remember these trimmer having little effect on the outcome.

Now, connect a saw signal to input 1 and do not connect anything to input 2. Adjust R13 & R18 until there is no signal present on the output. Repeat for input 2.

I am going from memory here, so if anyone sees that I am off the mark, please speak up!
sanders
diophantine wrote:


I did this on my 112a... two coats, each maybe about 4 seconds going back and forth across the PCB. Seems to work nicely (though I haven't used the pressure out much thus far, as I still have to mount everything in my cabinets), but I'm curious to know if others are having good results with more (or even less) lacquer.


I only used slightly more than you describe. Maybe 2 or 3 times back and forth, starting the spray on the ground and proceeding to spray over the touch plate (as per the spray can instructions actually). I let this dry for a couple hours, and then repeated. There’s not much visual indication that it was lacquered, but I can feel it. I used the spray product recommended on Dave Browns DIY modular synthesizer webpage for the 218r.
sines
lasesentaysiete wrote:
sines
I do not have a 111 handy , nor can I locate my notes on calibration. I built that module a while ago. You are right in expecting it to be easy to locate proper calibration instructions, so I apologize for not having that in order.

In any case, setting up the 111 is not difficult. It seems daunting with the 5 trimmers per side, but really there are 2 that are the main focus: R13 & R18. These are the "null adjustments". Straight away, I would go ahead and set the other 3 at about half way. I seem to remember these trimmer having little effect on the outcome.

Now, connect a saw signal to input 1 and do not connect anything to input 2. Adjust R13 & R18 until there is no signal present on the output. Repeat for input 2.

I am going from memory here, so if anyone sees that I am off the mark, please speak up!


Thank you!

Built it and works nicely so far.
——————————
On to the 123. I was thinking of using this LED switch

instead of the Dialight panel indicator LED, because I both have them, and would like to use a switch to disable the current step. Perhaps it's trivial, but is there a way to use the switch portion to skip the current stage [which is different, than modifying the number of stages]. I want sequence to skip a note without emitting a pulse or voltage for that step, but continue in time. Which is how the Korg SQ-1 functions to some degree.


Any ideas?
sanders
Be aware that the Dialight panel indicator is deceptively huge. The panel cutout is 1/2”.

I’ve noticed that Dialight make a lot of buttons that share the same package and appearance as their lamp indicators; not sure about this particular model, but it may be worth researching if you want a button to fit in the same footprint. Sometimes I see the older parts listed under the brand name Dialco, but using the same part numbers.
lasesentaysiete
sines
Maybe have a look at the Buchla 245 schematic. I think it has a function similar to what you are after.
sines
lasesentaysiete wrote:
sines
Maybe have a look at the Buchla 245 schematic. I think it has a function similar to what you are after.


It has 4 toggle switches for the stage select inputs, is that what you’re referring to? I’m not sure if that will work.

Here’s the 123 (minus 16 Davies knobs on the way)
https://vimeo.com/343443312/da7a0961d1

I ended up "recycling" some 12V lamp bezels from Radio Shack
https://www.radioshack.com/products/radioshack-12-volt-red-lamp-assemb ly

Drilling out some Home Depot screw covers [#6, I think]
https://www.homedepot.com/p/Everbilt-6-Black-Hinged-Pan-Head-Screw-Cov er-3-Piece-815978/204275899

And mounting them like this:

lasesentaysiete
sines
looks and sound nice!

I guess you can ignore my comment about the 245. I cannot remember how that thing works d'oh!
sines
lasesentaysiete wrote:
sines
looks and sound nice!


Thanks!

lasesentaysiete wrote:

I guess you can ignore my comment about the 245. I cannot remember how
that thing works d'oh!


Unfortunately, the switch would have to act like a mute, but not sure what it would mute since the next voltage stage generates 3 voltages as well, unless it made a voltage of 0V, which would still be a very low and most likely audible frequency, I think. Hrmm.
cygmu
lasesentaysiete wrote:
sines
looks and sound nice!

I guess you can ignore my comment about the 245. I cannot remember how that thing works d'oh!


The core of the 245 is pretty similar to the 123 as far as I can see.

The 245 switches are not stage select but loop boundary switches. There's one switch between each consecutive pair of stages. If you activate the switch between stages 2 and 3, for example, you create two possible loops: 1,2,1,2,... and 3,4,5,3,4,5...

It might well be possible to come up with a mod for the 245 or 123 that creates switches which skip a stage, so you could go 1,2,4,5... for example. I don't think that is what Todd is after though, is it?
sines
cygmu wrote:
lasesentaysiete wrote:
sines
looks and sound nice!

I guess you can ignore my comment about the 245. I cannot remember how that thing works d'oh!


The core of the 245 is pretty similar to the 123 as far as I can see.

The 245 switches are not stage select but loop boundary switches. There's one switch between each consecutive pair of stages. If you activate the switch between stages 2 and 3, for example, you create two possible loops: 1,2,1,2,... and 3,4,5,3,4,5...

It might well be possible to come up with a mod for the 245 or 123 that creates switches which skip a stage, so you could go 1,2,4,5... for example. I don't think that is what Todd is after though, is it?


Correct, I would like the ability to skip a step in time, or, mute a stage, however you look at it. I thought it would be simpler, but... apparently it is not. confused
Leverkusen
sines wrote:
I want sequence to skip a note without emitting a pulse or voltage for that step, but continue in time. Which is how the Korg SQ-1 functions to some degree.

Any ideas?


I guess the thing is that the SQ-1 is digital and implementing the same behaviour with analogue electronics is a little complicated. Therefore most analogue sequencers have either a Skip functionality which just skips the step or a Gate Off functionality to prevent outputting a gate signal. For the latter carefully dialing in the CV and/or envelope release time is important to prevent ghost notes. I don't know of an analogue sequencer that can hold a note over a 'skipped' step.

You probably could implement a circuit that switches the gate output off when a step is active, but holding the CV then would need some kind of sample and hold circuit. Otherwise you would need a circuit that counts through a row of step but on the Off-step pretend that it is still on the step before - except this was switched to Off too. That's not as simple as it seems for a human to conceptualize.

What you could do is either sequencing your clock source (140) with a second row of the sequencer to get individual length for each step. Or you could take the individual gate outs, combine them and just leave the ones out you want to be set to Off - though I don't know if you would need an OR-combiner or if it is allowed to just add them via patch cables on the Bucha 100 as you would do with e.g. Make Noise or Verbos modules.

Then here is an idea about modifying your SQ-1 for banana use: http://www.auxren.com/2017/12/how-to-bananafy-korg-sq-1.html
sines
Leverkusen wrote:
sines wrote:
I want sequence to skip a note without emitting a pulse or voltage for that step, but continue in time. Which is how the Korg SQ-1 functions to some degree.

Any ideas?


I guess the thing is that the SQ-1 is digital and implementing the same behaviour with analogue electronics is a little complicated. Therefore most analogue sequencers have either a Skip functionality which just skips the step or a Gate Off functionality to prevent outputting a gate signal. For the latter carefully dialing in the CV and/or envelope release time is important to prevent ghost notes. I don't know of an analogue sequencer that can hold a note over a 'skipped' step.


Sadly, you are correct.

Leverkusen wrote:

You probably could implement a circuit that switches the gate output off when a step is active, but holding the CV then would need some kind of sample and hold circuit. Otherwise you would need a circuit that counts through a row of step but on the Off-step pretend that it is still on the step before - except this was switched to Off too. That's not as simple as it seems for a human to conceptualize.


This is completely outside my wheelhouse for modifications at this point. smile

Leverkusen wrote:

What you could do is either sequencing your clock source (140) with a second row of the sequencer to get individual length for each step. Or you could take the individual gate outs, combine them and just leave the ones out you want to be set to Off - though I don't know if you would need an OR-combiner or if it is allowed to just add them via patch cables on the Buchla 100 as you would do with e.g. Make Noise or Verbos modules.


Without reading your response I stumbled upon this last night. I stacked the 2+5 stages from the pulse outs from the 123 to a Quad Low Pass Gate 292C, so it would give me a pulse only on 2 + 5, etc. This is what I'm searching for, but it's not all that "playable". Before I modify the 123, I could feed all of the pulse outs into a series of ON/OFF switches, then merge those collective outputs into 1 single Pulse out that would feed the LPG. Therefore I could just select which of the 8 the pulses I want to trigger the LPG.

Thinking on how I would modify the internals of the 123, I could route the Pulse outs to the input of each switch, then chain the outputs of each switch to a "selective" pulse out sad banana so that my output would just be a selection of engaged pulses. But the LEDs would need to be driven by the selected pulse out, not the master pulse input, so I'd have to drill another 8 holes for the "active/inactive Pulse" LED/switch combo or make a smaller series of LEDs for the current stage [like a tempo light].

Either way requires some work but I think this could work without any "circuitry", but rather wiring all of the pulse outs to the input of the switch, the output of the switches gets bussed to 1 master pulse out, and the LEDs are driven from the pulse out of the ... switch—LED anode to switched pulse out, cathode to ground? Is it really that simple? I am doubting myself.

Leverkusen wrote:

Then here is an idea about modifying your SQ-1 for banana use: http://www.auxren.com/2017/12/how-to-bananafy-korg-sq-1.html


Given the incredibly low cost of the SQ-1, this might be the more sane option wink
diophantine
I got my 191 assembled, and the switch correctly controls the LED! hihi

I got the HP section mostly calibrated... it doesn't seem to fully close, and it sounds a bit "scratchy" around 10-11:00, but that might be interference from something where I'm working. (It isn't the pot, because at certain positions the trimpot causes it, too.) But I only worked on it for a short while.

But I'm having difficulty with calibrating the LP section. I'm just working on pole 1 right now. I can confirm that the signal is getting into the circuit (I see it at the top of R18), but the amplitude at R12 is very low even at the best settings of R14. (Input saw = ~4Vpp, signal at R12 is ~.3Vpp.) And the DC offset is quite high, around 4V.

I got pole 1 kinda calibrated, but can't really see the signal at the next pole... (I see some sort of signal, which I can kinda affect by changing the oscillator frequency.)

What signal do you recommend using for calibration? And what frequency?
Should the frequency knob be set to FCW?
What does the trimpot R3 do, and should I try tweaking it?
What sort of max amplitude and offset do you get at the poles?

Thanks!
diophantine
Also, what's the trimpot do on the 130? Mine seems to be working fine, so I wasn't planning on touching it unless others have found it useful.

157 and 171 are working fine. I think the 172 is working, too, but the effect is very subtle on what I'm feeding it right now... and I've never really used a compressor much before, either.
lasesentaysiete
diophantine
Let me try and answer your questions smile

LP Section

Quote:
What does the trimpot R3 do, and should I try tweaking it?

R3 (and R14, R32, R72) appear to adjust the CV distribution between the matched pair of each pole. I found that these trimmers affected little. Try to set them about halfway, though.

Quote:
What signal do you recommend using for calibration? And what frequency?

I used a saw. Set the frequency so that you can make out a few cycles at whichever speed your oscilloscope is running.

Quote:
Should the frequency knob be set to FCW?

Keep the filter open when trimming each pole. That way the signal shows up on your 'scope.

Quote:
the amplitude at R12 is very low even at the best settings of R14. (Input saw = ~4Vpp, signal at R12 is ~.3Vpp.)

The amplitude will be low. This is normal. It is amplified at the output stage.

Quote:
And the DC offset is quite high, around 4V.

Dc offset was quite high on mine, too. It took quite a few turns of the trimmer to get the signal into range. I spent a good while believing that there was something wrong.

DC is later blocked at the output, so everything returns to normal smile

Quote:
What sort of max amplitude and offset do you get at the poles?


I cannot remember exactly. I would have to have another look. The numbers you are getting do not appear way off, though.


HP Section

Use RB46 & RB47 to make sure the filter closes where you want it to.
lasesentaysiete
diophantine wrote:
Also, what's the trimpot do on the 130? Mine seems to be working fine, so I wasn't planning on touching it unless others have found it useful..


The trimmer is for the decay setting. Again, exact details escape me now. Have a look on your oscilloscope. I will have a look on Tuesday when I am back at it.

diophantine wrote:

157 and 171 are working fine. I think the 172 is working, too, but the effect is very subtle on what I'm feeding it right now... and I've never really used a compressor much before, either.


The 172's effect depends entirely on the amplitude of the input. I still found some interesting sounds using the VCOs, though.

It is limited as a compressor. "Signal Leveler" seems more accurate a term, somehow.
diophantine
lasesentaysiete
Thanks! I tried the LP a bit more, this time using a sine wave (was using a sawtooth before). I got pole 1 looking alright, and pole 2 looking OK, but after that the amplitude was just too small. Hmm...

Part of the difficulty is that with my analog scope I have to set the V/Div so small to see the wave, that with all the offset there's not enough range in the vertical position knob to get the waveform in view. So I switched to AC mode, but the triggering/hold stuff with that makes it look really messy. And the amplitude with pole 2 is much smaller than pole 1, etc., so the image on the scope looks worse with every pole.

Tonight/tomorrow I may try with a square wave, and/or try tweaking R54/R55...
diophantine
Good (or at least better) news!

I set R55 FCCW and input a sine wave (to minimize any effects of filtering). Then, while monitoring R12, I adjusted R54 until I got in the area with the least distorted sine wave at R12.

After that the amplitude at each pole was much higher, and didn't decrease as much between poles (i.e. less filtering happening).

I found that it helps to have a two-trace scope with both the input wave and the pole you're adjusting. Once you think you have the trimmer right, wiggle the oscillator frequency knob and watch the scope to make sure you're looking at a version of the input signal.

Both LP and HP have a similar "scratchy" band... I was able to trim it out of the HP, but at that point the output amplitude was minimal at 3:00 and increased from there to 5:00. So tomorrow I will do some more trimming, but at this point I at least have working LP, HP, and BP! w00t


tl;dr - on the 191, even with the LP pot FCW you will probably need to adjust R54/R55 before trimming the individual poles.


btw, lasesentaysiete, I hope I never have to wire another switch like that in my life! zombie It took nearly 2 hours, and the last half hour I kept imagining Don laughing at me for not having a daughterboard to fit into those 24 pads with a bunch of CMOS switches to be controlled by a single pole switch! hihi
lasesentaysiete
diophantine
glad its working.

Something I do not think I have mentioned before is that with the internal/external switch set to external, the filters do not fully close if there is no patch cable in the appropriate plug.

regarding this:
Quote:
tl;dr - on the 191, even with the LP pot FCW you will probably need to adjust R54/R55 before trimming the individual poles.


That may be something that I forgot when I was writing the calibration notes. It may not apply to each case. Not sure. I will have a closer look this week.
lasesentaysiete
diophantine
And yeah, the switch is a treat Guinness ftw!
Leverkusen
How is the progress with the new modules and availability in the european shop?

It's peanut butter jelly time!
lasesentaysiete
Leverkusen wrote:
How is the progress with the new modules and availability in the european shop?

It's peanut butter jelly time!


I have 191 and 114 PCBs on order. They should be available by the end of the week.
sanders
I’m wrapping up a 191 build at the moment and unfortunately need to report that the 4 switches listed in the BOM (Mouser part #633-M202203, as per the BOM) are not correct for the PCB footprint. Unless I’m mistaken, or received the incorrect part, these switches have 6 pins, as opposed to the PCB footprint for 3 pins.

I’m wondering if I should cut off the extra pins and use it anyway. Opinions?
ndkent
sanders wrote:
I’m wrapping up a 191 build at the moment and unfortunately need to report that the 4 switches listed in the BOM (Mouser part #633-M202203, as per the BOM) are not correct for the PCB footprint. Unless I’m mistaken, or received the incorrect part, these switches have 6 pins, as opposed to the PCB footprint for 3 pins.

I’m wondering if I should cut off the extra pins and use it anyway. Opinions?


have not built that one but the mouser part is a DPDT (Double Pole Double throw) you want the same thing as a SPDT (single pole double throw pc mount on-none-on) -

will it work if you cut legs off?, most likely not without a modified front panel

test fit it to see for sure, I would think it won't fit the front panel if you cut off a row of legs since the legs need to be centered under the switch, save it for a different project
sanders
I didn’t look at the schematic or anything, or at the PCB before ordering. I just copy and pasted straight off the BOM; yes, i should have double checked.

I’m just hoping to save someone else from buying the wrong switches as I did, they weren’t inexpensive— probably $5 a piece (yikes). I suppose that’s the price for being the vanguard builder I am; I’ll recover : )

People beware of this 191 BOM item.

And yes, It would require some ingenuity to get the switches to sit right if I cut off one side of pins. Probably not worth the effort, and ending up with wonky switches.
lasesentaysiete
sanders
sorry about the mix up. I had already corrected the Mouser Cart with the SPDT switch. I missed the BOM file, obviously. I will correct that file tomorrow once I have access to it.
sanders
lasesentaysiete wrote:
sanders
sorry about the mix up. I had already corrected the Mouser Cart with the SPDT switch. I missed the BOM file, obviously. I will correct that file tomorrow once I have access to it.


No worries my friend, these sorts of typos are practically unavoidable when publishing such exhaustive lists of parts. It’s certainly something the builder should be double checking as well.

I know I’ve said it before, but I’ll say it again, I love these kits!! I’m so pleased that you’ve brought this beautiful historic instrument back into wider circulation.
sanders
I’m not seeing any 191 files on your website at all. Where do I find the 191 Mouser cart with the right part number? I have all sorts of SPDT switches to begin with, but I can’t find any with pins small enough to fit onto the PCB.

lasesentaysiete wrote:
sanders
sorry about the mix up. I had already corrected the Mouser Cart with the SPDT switch. I missed the BOM file, obviously. I will correct that file tomorrow once I have access to it.
lasesentaysiete
sanders
Build info for all modules is here: https://www.lasesentaysiete.com/build-info

SPDT switch Mouser#: 633-M201203
diophantine
sanders - it looks like you are using single-turn trimmers on the 191. They should be fine on R3/R21/R37/R72/RB8/RB16/RB24/RB32, but they might make trimming difficult on the others, particularly R14/R32/R48/R83. Just want to warn you...
diophantine
In other news, I just finished my 185 Frequency Shifter. Had to wait on some standoffs, as I was out of M3 M/F ones.

It seems to work! At least it outputs something that sounds frequency-shifter-ish! And it sounds cool. hihi The phasers were pretty close without trimming (will do that later, when I trim my 196, which was also very close), but I still need to trim the ring modulators.
lasesentaysiete
diophantine wrote:
sanders - it looks like you are using single-turn trimmers on the 191. They should be fine on R3/R21/R37/R72/RB8/RB16/RB24/RB32, but they might make trimming difficult on the others, particularly R14/R32/R48/R83. Just want to warn you...


Good point. I had not noticed the photo before, otherwise I would have mentioned it. R14/R32/R48/R83 will cause a headache with single turn.
lasesentaysiete
diophantine wrote:
In other news, I just finished my 185 Frequency Shifter.


I found that even with the individual modules calibrated, once combined, I had to make some adjustments.
lasesentaysiete
I managed to finish the 165 and 102 modules. They were surprisingly straightforward save a few errors on my part.

I substituted a TL071 in place of the LM307 in the 102 and found no difference. The op amp is just an output amplifier, so using a tl071 will make sourcing components a bit easier. LM307 can still be used if the builder insists.

EDIT: Here is a quick video of the 165 in action:

https://www.instagram.com/p/BzQGgjtogLM/
diophantine
lasesentaysiete wrote:
I managed to finish the 165 and 102 modules. They were surprisingly straightforward save a few errors on my part.

Excellent news! Can't wait!

Just finishing up my 114 and not sure if the CV outputs are working correctly.

With the lower pot CCW, touching the pad gives me a pressure-sensitive 0-5V.

Turning the pot CW increases the output without touching the pad, with a range of approx. 0-14V.

With the pot turned to give <5V, the pad will increase the voltage up to a max of 5V. (eg. with pot turned a bit & 2V at the output, using the pad gives a range of 2-5V output.)

When the pot is turned above 5V, the pad has no effect.

Note: all pads act identically, and I trimmed according to instructions (I assume trimming is performed when the pad is not being activated?)
lasesentaysiete
diophantine
114 is not the easiest to understand. Here is the explanation from the manual:

diophantine
lasesentaysiete
Yes, I'm familiar with the manual. Based on it, I would expect CV Out = max(pot, pressure), or similar.

And that appears to be the case with mine, except that the pressure never goes above 5V, which seems wrong. (Tweaking one of the trimmers I can get it to 6 or 7V, but at that point the Gate out doesn't work.)

I will try checking component values later. Have there been any component value changes that you've made to the BOM?
diophantine
(dupe...)
sanders
lasesentaysiete wrote:
sanders
Build info for all modules is here: https://www.lasesentaysiete.com/build-info

SPDT switch Mouser#: 633-M201203


Sorry bout that, and thank you; i had been looking at it on the mobile site; now I’ve got it.
diophantine
114: I checked and all components appear to be correct according to both the BOM and schematic.

lasesentaysiete What is the max output voltage you can get with just pressure (i.e. CV knob turned FCCW)?

The oscillator output (at the junction of R211 & R212 & C71, measured from right side of R212) is a ~2Vpp sine @ ~20kHz. This seems to be correct.

Looking at the circuit for key 1 (which behaves virtually identical to 2-10):
- Sine wave at Q2 base (measured from bottom of D1) varies from ~.2V with no pressure applied, to almost 4V with maximum pressure applied.
- Voltage at Q2 collector (measured from bottom of D3) varies from 0V with no pressure applied, to ~6V with maximum pressure applied. (This is actually a very low amplitude waveform, so what I call "voltage" is technically the DC offset.)
- So, with the forward voltage drop of D3, it makes sense that the max voltage I see on the output is only ~5V.

So I'm left wondering... is 470R actually correct for R8?

I decided to experiment & put a 1k resistor in parallel with R8, to give 320R. Now I get a maximum of ~8V at the Q2 collector - getting closer! Brought it down to 130R and now I get 12V! (And the gate still works...)

Perhaps R8 is supposed to be 47R, not 470R?

UPDATE: I brought R8 down to 60R and now the voltage at the Q2 collector is ~14V. So it does seem pretty likely that the resistor should be 47R, not 470R. I don't really want to disassemble, so I will probably just buy some 51R resistors to put in parallel with the 470R (46R total).
sanders
Does anyone have good photo of the 191 rotary switch wired up?
diophantine
sanders wrote:
Does anyone have good photo of the 191 rotary switch wired up?

I doubt this will be very helpful... MY ASS IS BLEEDING


Did you see the wiring diagram on the 2nd to last page of the BOM PDF?
lasesentaysiete
diophantine wrote:


Perhaps R8 is supposed to be 47R, not 470R?



It is possible, but the original schematic shows 470r. The 112 schematic is 470R, as well.

The maximum output from pressure alone was ~6v on mine, if I remember correctly. The owner of an original 114 now has one of my builds, so I will ask for a comparison.

In any case, its good that you have sorted it out. I guess the only thing left is to make sure the value change does not have an adverse effects on other functions.
lasesentaysiete
sanders wrote:
Does anyone have good photo of the 191 rotary switch wired up?


diophantine
lasesentaysiete wrote:
The maximum output from pressure alone was ~6v on mine, if I remember correctly. The owner of an original 114 now has one of my builds, so I will ask for a comparison.

That would be great; thank you!

6V doesn't seem very useful for operating a 107 (or 110), so (IMO) it would be shocking if the original only went up to 6V.

I guess I never really noticed it on the 112, because I haven't used the pressure out very much.

lasesentaysiete wrote:
In any case, its good that you have sorted it out. I guess the only thing left is to make sure the value change does not have an adverse effects on other functions.

At least with the 114, yes, all other features work fine, no matter what value of R8 I've used.
sanders
Ok, I got it. The wiring diagram is simplified for sake of clarity, and illustrates one switch wiring, of which there are actually 8 on the switch assembly. I’ll admit I was a little confused when I first looked at the diagram, compared to the switch.

I got it (applause)

lasesentaysiete
sanders
Ok, glad you got it. Its not very fun to wire that thing. And yes, I simplified the diagram for clarity only smile

diophantine
I am curious to find out about the original 114, too. I will report my findings. Either way, you have made a good adjustment to the circuit thumbs up
diophantine
lasesentaysiete wrote:
diophantine
I am curious to find out about the original 114, too. I will report my findings. Either way, you have made a good adjustment to the circuit thumbs up

thumbs up I just tried the 112a. Mine gives 7V on the pressure output. Changing R10 from 470R to 130R gives the full 15V output, and everything else works correctly. (Note: the trimmers on the 112a seem to have minimal effect; I've kept them all near the center.)
lasesentaysiete
diophantine
Excellent. How is the sensitivity on the 112? Can it be subtle or is it jumpy?
diophantine
lasesentaysiete wrote:
diophantine
Excellent. How is the sensitivity on the 112? Can it be subtle or is it jumpy?

It isn't jumpy at all. I was able to smoothly and slowly sweep a 158's frequency across its whole range.

Bear in mind that I also used a polyurethane spray on the touchpad PCBs.
sanders
lasesentaysiete wrote:

The 146 (16 step 123) and 112b (16 key 112) are also in the works.


If you release a 112b, will it have the blue touch plate (maybe they were all made this way, I don’t know). I saw a photo of one recently, it’s such a beautiful design. I was quite smitten with it.



diophantine
sanders
The plan (mentioned elsewhere in this thread) is that the 112b (16 key) will have the blue touchplate, while the 112a (12 key) has the older style one. I think Don had switched to the blue ones before the 16-key 112 came out.

That's a nicely modded one you've linked to, with the LEDs per key, etc.! Very useful... Interesting that it has tinijax (or more likely, minijacks).
diophantine
lasesentaysiete wrote:
144:

1. Adjust R18 so that oscillation is within audible range. The circuit can oscillate at super high frequencies, or not at all, so you may have to adjust R18 quite a bit.

2. R4 sets the low frequency and R10 sets the high frequency. These two trimmers interact to some degree, so you may have to go back and forth some. Re-adjust R18 if you cannot get reasonable lowest/highest frequencies.

3. R36 sets the amplitude and also affects the AM. I set mine for the lowest amplitude (~1.8v pk-pk in my case) to try and match the 158 as closely as possible. AM still responds well.

I was able to get a a range of 5hz to 15khz on these. They can oscillate at higher frequencies, but you lose low end extension.

I finally got around to calibrating my 144s, beyond R18. All four oscillators have a full 5Hz to 20kHz range. (I did use 2N5020 rather than J175.)

Regarding the amplitude, you mention that you calibrated to 1.8Vpp... that's what your 158 gives? Mine are both ~4Vpp. So I calibrated the 144 to give the max amplitude, which is around 3.6Vpp or so, without turning the trimpot further. AM still seems to work fine.
diophantine
I guess it is calibration day...

Working on the 155. Got it pretty close to 10 seconds max slew (just mentally counting, not actually timing). One thing I notice is that when the input voltage is near +15V and slew rate is at max, there seems to be a "sustain" based on the amount of time it has been at that voltage. So if I'm inputting ~15V and when the 155 output hits ~15V I immediately change the input to 0V, the 155 output starts going down right away. But if I wait a few seconds, it takes the 155 a few seconds before the output starts decaying.

Is this something that others are seeing, too? I'm testing it with a 156... and I'm not seeing this sort of thing when I'm only inputting 10V, for instance.

The manual for the 100 is missing this module (as well as some other obscure modules); I'm wondering if anyone has seen any sort of original description of the module? I'd be curious for historical purposes...
lasesentaysiete
diophantine wrote:
So if I'm inputting ~15V and when the 155 output hits ~15V I immediately change the input to 0V, the 155 output starts going down right away. But if I wait a few seconds, it takes the 155 a few seconds before the output starts decaying.



Do you mean that the positive slew set to maximum, it affects the negative? Are you using the manual offset knob of the 156 as a voltage source? Maybe try discrete voltage from the 123 to compare?

I will have a look today, as well.
lasesentaysiete
diophantine wrote:

I finally got around to calibrating my 144s, beyond R18. All four oscillators have a full 5Hz to 20kHz range. (I did use 2N5020 rather than J175.)

Regarding the amplitude, you mention that you calibrated to 1.8Vpp... that's what your 158 gives? Mine are both ~4Vpp. So I calibrated the 144 to give the max amplitude, which is around 3.6Vpp or so, without turning the trimpot further. AM still seems to work fine.


It sounds like you have got it working nicely. Especially nice is the equal amplitude to the 158. I am likely to build another 158 soon so I will try and find the best way to maximize the output amplitude (to best match the 144).
diophantine
lasesentaysiete wrote:
diophantine wrote:
So if I'm inputting ~15V and when the 155 output hits ~15V I immediately change the input to 0V, the 155 output starts going down right away. But if I wait a few seconds, it takes the 155 a few seconds before the output starts decaying.



Do you mean that the positive slew set to maximum, it affects the negative? Are you using the manual offset knob of the 156 as a voltage source? Maybe try discrete voltage from the 123 to compare?


Yes, I am using the manual offset knob, but no, it is not affected by the positive slew setting. With positive slew FCCW (min) and negative slew FCW (max), if I set the input to +14V (or less) and leave it there for a few minutes... when I turn the input back to 0V the 155 output immediately starts to go down according to the slew rate.

But if I input +15V and leave it there, even for only a few seconds, when I turn the input back to 0V the 155 waits 5-15 seconds before the output starts decreasing.

This weekend I will try it with the 112 or 123, to see if that makes a difference.
diophantine
Also, how good or bad is this attempt at calibrating my 196?:
https://photos.google.com/photo/AF1QipMJhVyFCEFnvyo74vQPC6pDIgnKlsOOIx uOOF7U
lasesentaysiete
diophantine wrote:
Also, how good or bad is this attempt at calibrating my 196?:
https://photos.google.com/photo/AF1QipMJhVyFCEFnvyo74vQPC6pDIgnKlsOOIx uOOF7U


The link did not work for me. Was it a oscilloscope still showing an XY reading?

I was unable to get the two signals to form a perfect circle across the entire frequency range, but it did look acceptable
sanders
I "finished" my 191 tonight. I made a video demonstrating the various filter modes-- but I realized while doing so that there are at least a few issues yet to solve.
First off, I'm getting a lot of noise interference from my case (I presume); I actually filmed the 191 resting on another module, because as soon as I set it inside the case, the noise quite dramatically frequency modulates the filter-- and sounds nice actually-- but I hope I can figure out why this is happening, and fix it.
I noticed one of my outputs isn't wired up correctly, you'll see; and finally, you can see in the video that the LPF output has a lot less volume than the others.

I did the calibrations by ear (which is actually why I used single-turn trims). It took me a minute, but I think I have it fairly well figured out how to do this ok by ear. Tell me what you think:

lasesentaysiete
sanders
That is impressive for single-turn trimmers an no oscilloscope. A few things:

1. You can calibrate the HP (or LP) to close fully. It sounded like your HP section was not cutting off completely.

2. I suspect that the lower amplitude of the LP is down to calibration. Part of the process for each stage of the LP is setting the amplitude relative to DC offset. It is possible that you are not getting optimal amplitude out of one (or more?) of the filter's stages. Otherwise, double check component values.

3. Not sure about the noise. I have used the 191 with linear and switching supplies and have not experienced what you describe.
sanders
lasesentaysiete wrote:

That is impressive for single-turn trimmers an no oscilloscope


why thank you : )

lasesentaysiete wrote:

1. You can calibrate the HP (or LP) to close fully. It sounded like your HP section was not cutting off completely.


I'm pleased to report they all close; I wasn't turning through the full range in the video. I used your calibration notes-- wouldn't have gotten anywhere without them-- and adjusted the range and scale suitably.

lasesentaysiete wrote:

2. I suspect that the lower amplitude of the LP is down to calibration.


Turns out it was something more simple. The first LPF output jack which was silent in the video was accidentally grounded; I discovered it, adjusted the jack, it began working again naturally, but also all at once, the volume jumped up on both jacks to full level.

lasesentaysiete wrote:

3. Not sure about the noise. I have used the 191 with linear and switching supplies and have not experienced what you describe.


So this is the only remaining issue now. It's interesting. The noise doesn't start when the panel touches the cabinet chasis (as one would expect). It only starts getting noisy when I lean the module into the boat. There happens to be a power-line boat connector cord right behind this module, so I think I'll try moving the 191 to another space.
lasesentaysiete
sanders wrote:
It's interesting. The noise doesn't start when the panel touches the cabinet chasis (as one would expect). It only starts getting noisy when I lean the module into the boat. There happens to be a power-line boat connector cord right behind this module, so I think I'll try moving the 191 to another space.


Yes, try that. It sounds like airborne noise pickup.
sanders
In case anyone else wants to try calibrating the 191 without an oscilloscope, I'll describe what worked for me:

I followed the instructions by ear as best as I could, i.e. I adjusted the 4 LPF pole trimmers to maximum volume (at the specified check points) and minimum offset. Then I adjusted the range and scale trims, again as per instructions.

I did the same for HPF pole trims, without any audible effect, so I left them centered as per instructions.

Next, I listened to audio through the Band Pass Filter mode, I found that I could only get a clear sound out of it within the most narrow range of slight re-adjustment to all four LPF-pole trims. I got the BPF mode sounding close to perfect with these slight LPF trim adjustments (surprisingly!); I then went back to listen to the LPF audio in Independent Mode, thinking it would be silent again. however, I found that it was actually vastly improved, and now filtered smoothly through each pole.

So by calibrating the LPF, and then re-adjusting the same trims for optimal BPF audio output-- I was able to get a great sound out of all three filters.
diophantine
lasesentaysiete wrote:
The link did not work for me. Was it a oscilloscope still showing an XY reading?

I was unable to get the two signals to form a perfect circle across the entire frequency range, but it did look acceptable

Sorry about that, yes, here we go: https://youtu.be/xKnZ_DrqgMM
Just want to know if this is "close enough" or similar to yours, or if I should attempt to trim it better.
lasesentaysiete
diophantine wrote:

Sorry about that, yes, here we go: https://youtu.be/xKnZ_DrqgMM
Just want to know if this is "close enough" or similar to yours, or if I should attempt to trim it better.


Is that a single sweep across the entire VCO range? I am pretty sure I had mine a little less wobbly, but yours looks in the ballpark. Just trim it as best you can without unnecessary frustration, I guess. As mentioned, you are likely to need minor adjustments during final assembly of the 185.
diophantine
diophantine wrote:
Yes, I am using the manual offset knob, but no, it is not affected by the positive slew setting. With positive slew FCCW (min) and negative slew FCW (max), if I set the input to +14V (or less) and leave it there for a few minutes... when I turn the input back to 0V the 155 output immediately starts to go down according to the slew rate.

But if I input +15V and leave it there, even for only a few seconds, when I turn the input back to 0V the 155 waits 5-15 seconds before the output starts decreasing.

This weekend I will try it with the 112 or 123, to see if that makes a difference.

I tested the 155 with the 112a and it is working as I would expect! thumbs up Clearly it was just some oddity when using the max voltage out from the 156...
diophantine
lasesentaysiete wrote:
Is that a single sweep across the entire VCO range? I am pretty sure I had mine a little less wobbly, but yours looks in the ballpark. Just trim it as best you can without unnecessary frustration, I guess. As mentioned, you are likely to need minor adjustments during final assembly of the 185.

Ok, thanks! Yes, that's a sweep across the whole VCO range. Maybe I'll trim the ones in my 185 sometime and then go back to the 196.
diophantine
sanders
Nice work on the 191! Hopefully I can get mine sounding that good... there's a few artifacts left that are bugging me & that I'm trying to get trimmed out.

Mine is also very susceptible to interference. My hand too close to some of the transistors while trimming makes it noisier, for instance.
diophantine
What worries me about my 191 is all the artifacts in the sound. I'm having a tough time trimming them out.

LPF: https://soundcloud.com/k-a-wright/191-lpf-test/s-Dhm4O
HPF: https://soundcloud.com/k-a-wright/191-hpf-test/s-xF9G7
These are sweeps from open to closed to open. Yeah, there's some range issues that I need to address (I'd been tweaking those a lot), but that's not the only issue. You can hear the two "noise bands" in the HPF when sweeping both directions.

Is this stuff that I should be able to trim out? Or are my transistors perhaps not matched well enough? Or do you think there is some other issue?

UPDATE: By accident, I discovered that I'm able to move these noise bands (and drop-out bands) in the LPF by turning the HPF cutoff knob, and vice-versa. Same happens when I have external control of both filters: both the internal & external HPF pots affect the noise bands in the LPF section.

So I think it is some sort of grounding issue or short. This should be fun to debug... Dead Banana MY ASS IS BLEEDING
lasesentaysiete
I just had a listen to my 191 to see how/if the LP & HP knobs affected each other. The HP output is completely unaffected by the LP knob, but the LP output has a slight change in pitch if the HP is at one extreme or the other of its travel (i.e. fully open of fully closed). This might be down to range calibration.

No other noise issues, though.

EDIT: I hear slight pitch variation if I go around to the back of the cabinet and put my hand close to the components. Nothing from the front panel side, though.
sanders
I noticed quite a bit of interaction b/t filters before ear calibrating the 191, not noticeable afterwards.

If I move the 191 to another space in my cabinet I can get nearly all of the pick-up noise to quiet down. I'm pretty sure now this noise is being picked up by the large 2000uf cap that sticks out of the back of the PCB, and seems to act as an antenna. If I had the chance, I would look for a shorter electrolytic cap.
ST.P
@lasesentaysiete:

in the near future i´ll need panel files (.fpd) for the 114, 185 and 191
- if you can put them on your shop site :-)

thanks,
ST.P
lasesentaysiete
ST.P
I will get all the panel files up to date this weekend thumbs up
lasesentaysiete
Does anyone have a photo of the 176 module? I cannot seem to find that one blurry photo of the module with a red panel.
diophantine
lasesentaysiete wrote:
Does anyone have a photo of the 176 module? I cannot seem to find that one blurry photo of the module with a red panel.

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/3vtscdga0oa43do/AABnftjbtT2aekv8PRsBIW_0a?p review=IMG_20140425_111702_474.jpg
lasesentaysiete
diophantine
cheers. I will get to work!
lasesentaysiete
102, 165, 170 PCBs & panels have arrived at Modular Addict. They should be up for sale soon. Meanwhile, I have posted the BOM files on my website.
lasesentaysiete
Oh, and it seems I forgot to post this little demo of the 165:

https://www.instagram.com/p/BzQGgjtogLM/
diophantine
lasesentaysiete wrote:
102, 165, 170 PCBs & panels have arrived at Modular Addict. They should be up for sale soon. Meanwhile, I have posted the BOM files on my website.

thumbs up Keeping my eyes on their site for the new ones! Not sure yet if I'll build the 170... doubt I'd use it much and the transformers are pricey. Will try to take a look at the BOMs over the weekend or on Monday.

Hope to get back to trimming the 196 soon. Was out-of-town a while and came back to everything broken at work... Dead Banana

Any idea when we can expect the 112b and 146?
lasesentaysiete
diophantine wrote:

thumbs up Keeping my eyes on their site for the new ones! Not sure yet if I'll build the 170... doubt I'd use it much and the transformers are pricey. Will try to take a look at the BOMs over the weekend or on Monday.


I understand about the transformers. The Switchcraft XLR inputs are quite expensive, too. Besides having to build the 170, I am mostly attracted by its looks smile

diophantine wrote:

Any idea when we can expect the 112b and 146?


I will receive the 146 and 112b PCBs next week. If all goes well, they will be available early August.

Then I will spend August trying to get the 148 to work. I will also find time to complete the 176.
guitarfool
Since I'm now waiting on parts, I took the time to put up some Buchla 100 build info on my website HERE. Not much on build notes yet, but at least I uploaded board scans of most of them (all the ones I have). Feel free to PM me if you have anything to add, corrections, omissions, whatever. wink
lasesentaysiete
guitarfool wrote:
Since I'm now waiting on parts, I took the time to put up some Buchla 100 build info on my website HERE.


Excellent work applause
lasesentaysiete
The 165 schematic is now up on my website in case anyone wants to take a peek.
yan6
I'm somewhat of a completist and was holding off showing this. But seeing as things are slowing down, why not




lasesentaysiete
yan6
Nice patches! And your synth looks great, too!

nanners
diophantine
New modules are up at ModularAddict, in case people hadn't noticed.

Got the low-pass section on my 191 working fine. Per the scope it looks like maybe I could do some more tweaking to the individual poles, but it might just be due to the fact that the incoming sine wave ain't perfect, and the filter isn't, either. HP settings aren't affecting the LP filter any longer, either. But still need to get the HP section working better... it is still affected by the LP settings, and has some odd noisy bands.

guitarfool wrote:
Since I'm now waiting on parts, I took the time to put up some Buchla 100 build info on my website HERE. Not much on build notes yet, but at least I uploaded board scans of most of them (all the ones I have). Feel free to PM me if you have anything to add, corrections, omissions, whatever. wink

Nice! Glad to see that my 114 mod worked out for you. I didn't have enough 51R resistors, so I'll be finishing mine this weekend, and doing a similar mod to the 112a (with 160R in parallel).
diophantine
lasesentaysiete wrote:
The 165 schematic is now up on my website in case anyone wants to take a peek.

Don made some circuits that make me go "wtf?", but this one makes me seriously dizzy...
lasesentaysiete
diophantine wrote:

Nice! Glad to see that my 114 mod worked out for you. I didn't have enough 51R resistors, so I'll be finishing mine this weekend, and doing a similar mod to the 112a (with 160R in parallel).


I will be building the 112b next week and am going to try it, too. I stil have not heard back from the owner of the original 114, though.
lasesentaysiete
diophantine wrote:

Don made some circuits that make me go "wtf?", but this one makes me seriously dizzy...


The 148 looks like a real treat, too smile
diophantine
diophantine wrote:
New modules are up at ModularAddict, in case people hadn't noticed.

There's a problem with the 165 panels... am in touch with MA & Mr. La67... will update when it is resolved.
guitarfool
diophantine wrote:
diophantine wrote:
New modules are up at ModularAddict, in case people hadn't noticed.

There's a problem with the 165 panels... am in touch with MA & Mr. La67... will update when it is resolved.


Yeah, I noticed. I just used a step drill to enlarge the holes to the correct size. Oh, and PCB scans for the 102 & 165 are up on my site. cool
lasesentaysiete
diophantine wrote:
diophantine wrote:
New modules are up at ModularAddict, in case people hadn't noticed.

There's a problem with the 165 panels... am in touch with MA & Mr. La67... will update when it is resolved.


Yes, the holes for the banana jacks are too small. Replacements will be provided. Sorry for the mistake.
shoegazer86
diophantine wrote:
sanders
The plan (mentioned elsewhere in this thread) is that the 112b (16 key) will have the blue touchplate, while the 112a (12 key) has the older style one. I think Don had switched to the blue ones before the 16-key 112 came out.

That's a nicely modded one you've linked to, with the LEDs per key, etc.! Very useful... Interesting that it has tinijax (or more likely, minijacks).


That's not all the 12 key 112 has different, its an entirely different circuit. The 112A is still a 16 key, whereas the 12 key version is simply 112.
diophantine
shoegazer86 wrote:
diophantine wrote:
sanders
The plan (mentioned elsewhere in this thread) is that the 112b (16 key) will have the blue touchplate, while the 112a (12 key) has the older style one. I think Don had switched to the blue ones before the 16-key 112 came out.

That's a nicely modded one you've linked to, with the LEDs per key, etc.! Very useful... Interesting that it has tinijax (or more likely, minijacks).


That's not all the 12 key 112 has different, its an entirely different circuit. The 112A is still a 16 key, whereas the 12 key version is simply 112.

So... the original with the rectangular pads (12-key only) has a different circuit than the later one with the more curved pads (12-key and 16-key, at least according to the CBS docs)?

Or were you referring to the one pictured in that previous post?

(Also, to avoid further confusion, by a/b I'm referring to the LA67 designations he's using to differentiate his BOMs, etc.)
shoegazer86
diophantine wrote:
So... the original with the rectangular pads (12-key only) has a different circuit than the later one with the more curved pads (12-key and 16-key, at least according to the CBS docs)?

Or were you referring to the one pictured in that previous post?

(Also, to avoid further confusion, by a/b I'm referring to the LA67 designations he's using to differentiate his BOMs, etc.)


Yeah, the yellow pcb versions (let's call them the San Francisco Tape Music Center versions) utilized an entirely different circuit. It's almost laughable how rudimentary they are inside when the more modern CBS module is loaded with trimmers and extra circuitry surrounding the stages. It often makes me wonder how they performed on a spectrum - it seemed that the additions were for more sensitive trimming, probably to widen the margin of error from multiple capacitances from person to person.

The 112 SFTMC has ZERO trimmers. Figure that one out. It must have worked fine for them to be in production long enough.

Also, worth noting, the transistor selection for the 112 under CBS' rule changed frequently. CBS had eventually nixed the transistors in the schematic for ones with tighter tolerances, this was implemented in some field repairs.
diophantine
shoegazer86
Thanks for the info! That's good (& interesting) to know.

To be honest, the trimmers in my LA67 112 seem to have minimal effect, so I've left them at their center position. I may play around with them again before I mount it in the cabinet, though.
lasesentaysiete
diophantine wrote:

To be honest, the trimmers in my LA67 112 seem to have minimal effect, so I've left them at their center position.


That's OK if it works for you. My experience was that one trimmer affected the associated step's "activation sensitivity" and the other set the gate release. Before trimming, or if trimmed too far, some keys would not activate easily, and some gates would latch.
lasesentaysiete
shoegazer86
I am looking forward to being able to read more on the work you are doing thumbs up
Delabelle
I have an 191 where the 4th pole DC doesn’t come down to the same voltage as the first 3 poles in low pass .

What I did so far to try to fix this so that the low pass could be fixed:
- checked resistors > ok
- changed matched transistors > ok
- checked for shorts > ok
- checked the rotary switch with respective wiring > ok

Now I want to change the trimmer of the 4 th pole to a higher value to be able to descent the DC.

I heared some people successfully build the 191 and all suggestions are welcome .

Peace

G
diophantine
Delabelle
If I remember correctly, the DC offset increases with each stage. It is then AC coupled after the 4th stage, so it doesn't really matter. Are you able to get a signal out of the LP filter? If so, things should be OK!
diophantine
Note that the 24V power footprint on the 190 (and 165) PCBs are opposite of those on the power distro PCB. So you should probably either wire the power cable directly, or install the MTA header backwards.

On the 190 I used an MTA header for the +24V power (since the module had the footprint, and didn't have space for a strain-relief zip-tie). There was no "wet" signal, but I quickly realized the problem & turned my power cable into a "crossover" cable. Now the reverb works great... and sounds great!

I haven't played around with it much, but it seems really nice. My tanks are mounted vertically with no problems. The transformers are mounted in my cabinet, and connected to everything via a terminal block. The tank returns are connected directly to the module via shielded cables to MTA headers.
Delabelle
diophantine wrote:
Delabelle
If I remember correctly, the DC offset increases with each stage. It is then AC coupled after the 4th stage, so it doesn't really matter. Are you able to get a signal out of the LP filter? If so, things should be OK!


When plugging sound in the signal in for low pass I get no sound at low pass out. What was considered normal when not calibrated/trimmed.

At the 4th I can get no lower than 6.5v dc to be precise. The other poles can descent to 0v.
lasesentaysiete
Delabelle
Is Q28 socketed?
Delabelle
lasesentaysiete wrote:
Delabelle
Is Q28 socketed?
I found nothing regarding socketing transistors in the build doc
lasesentaysiete
Delabelle wrote:
lasesentaysiete wrote:
Delabelle
Is Q28 socketed?
I found nothing regarding socketing transistors in the build doc


It is mentioned. However, I had no problems with the j175s. If it is not too difficult, try swapping it. You could also compare voltages around the j175 in stage four against the other stages.

The original schematic had these notes regarding calibration:

diophantine
165 panels corrected at MA now; got my replacement in the mail today. thumbs up

I should have the first cabinet up & running over the weekend... can't wait! Guinness ftw!
lasesentaysiete
diophantine wrote:
165 panels corrected at MA now; got my replacement in the mail today. thumbs up


I am glad they were able to fix that for you.
lasesentaysiete
I finished the 146 the other day:

diophantine
lasesentaysiete wrote:
I finished the 146 the other day:

Lovely! Can't wait!
guitarfool
After a couple of stupid mistakes I finally got my 165 up and running!
You can read all about it (with a crappy video) HERE
lasesentaysiete
guitarfool
thumbs up
I did not have a terribly difficult time selecting transistors. Actually, I just used the highest (or lowest) ratings I had out of maybe 50 of each type. Further, I did not spend any time testing the flexibility of the Hfe ranges. It may be that higher/lower values will work.

Good work on finding a substitute, though!
guitarfool
Thanks. Now I just need another 160 PCB (just ordered from you) so I don't have to use a cable for an input source.

I noticed without the source cable plugged into anything, it still works somewhat. I guess there is enough extraneous noise in the input circuitry (plus the cable as an antenna) to get a semi random voltage output Eel Power FTW!
diophantine
Glad I'm not the only one having trouble finding transistors that have the appropriate hFE! The large bag of 2N3904 doesn't have any over 130. Finally I found another bag of 2N3906 that might be promising for the low value... found a couple around 174 and will keep testing.

But tomorrow I'll see what other transistors I have...
diophantine
Any concerns about using BC550 for Q14 & Q16? (Other than the different pinout...)
guitarfool
diophantine wrote:
Any concerns about using BC550 for Q14 & Q16? (Other than the different pinout...)


Not that I can see. I just checked 2 BC550s and their Hfes were around 350! Oh yeah, watch out for the pinout very frustrating
lasesentaysiete
Ok, I can explain the transistor troubles! I had a look at my module and remembered that I used 2N3565 for Q14 & Q16. I am not sure why I forgot about this. I will change the BOM.
lasesentaysiete
guitarfool wrote:

I noticed without the source cable plugged into anything, it still works somewhat. I guess there is enough extraneous noise in the input circuitry (plus the cable as an antenna) to get a semi random voltage output Eel Power FTW!


The voltage output is a blend between the external input (noise) and a saw wave. So, the will still be an s&h type output with no external source connected. This is convenient for testing.
diophantine
Thanks! I used BC550 (hFE > 300) for Q14 and Q16.

I couldn't find any PNPs here with an hFE < 160, but I found two 2N3906 with an hFE of 165... hopefully close enough for Q18.

The good news: the right side works fine!
The bad news: the left side doesn't... It does trip the relay, so hopefully debugging won't be too awful, and hopefully not related to Q18.
diophantine
d'oh! Of course the first thing that I did when I discovered a problem was to verify that all the transistors were installed in the right direction. (And, of course, I checked that, too, before soldering.)

But, of course, after nearly 3 hours of debugging I discovered that I had installed Q12 backwards on the left side! Ugh. Fixed, and working fine!

I actually don't regret spending that time debugging the circuit, as I understand it a lot better now. And it is even weirder than I imagined!

What it actually samples is that internal saw-ish oscillator. But that oscillator is basically sync'd (or something similar) to some digital noise (random negative pulse train) derived from the 160 noise. So without the 160 connected, internally you just have the saw... but with the 160 it resets in an odd fashion.

And the S&H itself is actually two S&Hs that the relay switches between. And then it gets scaled to 0-15V.

My brain hurts now... this is by far the most WTF sample & hold circuit that I've ever seen.
diophantine
Which package option is correct for the transformers on the 170? Sowter offers: Side Leads, Threaded Grommet, and Octal Base. I'd assume side leads, but just want to check.

Quick power question... does the 176 just use +15V?
lasesentaysiete
diophantine wrote:
Which package option is correct for the transformers on the 170?
Side Leads

diophantine wrote:

Quick power question... does the 176 just use +15V?
Yes (15v/0v)
diophantine
Great, thanks! Hopefully I can get that transformer ordered sometime soon...

Minor correction to the 102 switch wiring diagram in the BOM. For "Switch 1" it shows the Pin 7 pad connected to Pin 8 of the switch. [EDIT: never-mind this, see photos & photo below.]

Just finished my 102 and I think it is working(?). It seems that when channel 1 is on "normal" the CV adjusts the volume of input 1 on output 1, but the signal is never present on output 2. And when set to "invert" the CV adjusts the volume of input 1 on output 2, but the signal is never present on output 1. (Channel 2 exhibits the same sort of behavior.) So you can't pan one input between both outputs. Is that correct? Or have I screwed something up, or is it a calibration problem?

Speaking of which, do you have any calibration notes?
lasesentaysiete
diophantine
I think you have it wired incorrectly. I just checked the diagram against my module. The diagram is correct but perhaps a bit unclear. The green and red wires in the diagram are each connected to two pins. For example, the green wire passes over two black dots. This means that it is soldered to both. I hope that makes sense.

Operation:

-Left input appears at left output in "Normal" position. CV pans it to right output.
-Left input appears at right output in "Invert" position. CV pans it to left output.
diophantine
lasesentaysiete wrote:
diophantine
I think you have it wired incorrectly. I just checked the diagram against my module. The diagram is correct but perhaps a bit unclear. The green and red wires in the diagram are each connected to two pins. For example, the green wire passes over two black dots. This means that it is soldered to both. I hope that makes sense.

Operation:

-Left input appears at left output in "Normal" position. CV pans it to right output.
-Left input appears at right output in "Invert" position. CV pans it to left output.


Ok, since I am red/green colour-blind, I want to confirm....

"Pins 5 & 10" pad should be connected to switch pins 5 & 10.
"Pin 7" pad should be connected to switch pins 7 & 8.

Is this correct?

Since the pad was just named "Pin 7" (and the other one explicitly listed two pins) I assumed it just went to pin 7.
lasesentaysiete
diophantine
The main confusion with the PCB and diagram seems to be caused be the pin numbering scheme. The pad names refer to the original schematic and not to the actual pin numbers of the BOM's rotary. I admit this is counter-intuitive.

Hopefully this photo helps clarify:

diophantine
lasesentaysiete
Many thanks for the photo! My switch is now wired correctly, and the module is working as I would have imagined.
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