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how to get that metallica bass?
MUFF WIGGLER Forum Index -> Production Techniques  
Author how to get that metallica bass?
sizone
that, like, oddly characterless, speaker shake woooom woooom woooom kinda sound like on master of puppets and and justice for all.

just equing off everything above, like, 300hz or is there some magic thrash metal production technique I'm unaware of?
DickMarker
Haha I love MOP and JFA but don't associate them with bass, especially JFA.

Think the technique on Justice was turn Jason down and turn Lars' kick drum up.


There's a bit of wooom wooom on Master and you can also just about make out the mids on the bass so I think you're not far off in your assessment, with a smidge of mids (can't really tell if from a mic'd cab or DI) added for a bit of clarity.
felixer
is there any bass on metallica records? seems to be very far away in the mix. one of the reasons i never liked them ...
sizone
yeah, it's not exactly bass. it's... you know that sound when someone has a really shitty car stereo and they're playing it loud and they're kinda far away and all you hear is a kind of bwaaaan. like it's not even the bass that you hear, it's the bass resonating the speaker enclosure you hear. that is metallica bass.
DeepSeaDriver
Run it through a crappy reverb on full wet and roll off all the highs and boost the worst sounding low frequency, then mute it
ignatius
probably some interviews somewhere that talk abotu the recording process for those albums. i can't recall who the engineer/producer was but i'm sure google will lead you to some things.

i think for JFA you need to have a bus fall over on you then jason newsted's phone rings.

after JFA they got pretty dumb w/recording. apparently they spent 3 weeks just setting up lars' drums for the black album.. then replaced all the sounds w/samples or something.
craigie77
the technique applied for JFA ( from the producers mouth) was on request to
"mix the bass till its barely audible, then turn it down 6db"....

good ol lars again… and Steve Thompson sti9ll gets shit for it to this day

and the masters have over 250 takes on the album, so no danger of mixing it like it was origionally

apparently Newstead absolutely killed it
DickMarker
ignatius wrote:


i think for JFA you need to have a bus fall over on you then jason newsted's phone rings.



You know it's sad but true.
craigie77
Kirk and Cliff cut a deck of cards that night to see who would get the bunk at the front of the bus..

Cliff won with an ace of spades....spooky eh!
DickMarker
craigie77 wrote:
Kirk and Cliff cut a deck of cards that night to see who would get the bunk at the front of the bus..

Cliff won with an ace of spades....spooky eh!


Yikes!

Many years ago, whilst travelling through Spain, a friend and I hooked up with some Italians in San Sebastian - they had almost no English and we had almost no Italian, but one if them had a slightly sloppy tattoo of Cliff's face on his arm and we spent a thoroughly fun, drunken evening communicating almost solely with the phrases "Cliff Burton", "Metallica" and "Metal up your ass", punctuated by copious throwing of the horns.
gringostar
Seems relevant to this thread

felixer
yeah, that video explains some of the shit that went on. just a bunch of dumb fuckers. it almost happened to me. i was mixing an album and we were more then halfway and the rhythm guitar player came in with a bunch of journalists. and he hated it. be we were too far ahead to remix it. recently heard it again and it still sounds pretty good ... so i was right and he was wrong ...
later on got in a lot of trouble when he got a singer in who thought he could mix. that album still sounds pretty bad ...
Panason
what bass?

AJFA was the end of Metallica for me. Their first 2 albums were fresh.
naturligfunktion
gringostar wrote:
Seems relevant to this thread



This is pure gold hihi
Rex Coil 7
... use a software bass amp simulator ... select an Ampeg SVT as the amp, and an 8x10 as the speaker cab. Adjust it so there is a midrange presence around 1khz, EQ and add distortion to taste. Also keep in mind that at some point 4 string basses were cast aside for 5 string basses (it matters). Another thing to remember is that at some point passive basses were set aside for active basses with "neck through" construction. An active neck through 5 string sounds WAY different than a passive bolt on 4 string. You have to choose which one suits your needs before you can move anywhere even close to your goals.

Passive bolt on 4 string has a much shorter volume envelope (to use familiar synth terms) ... the gain falls off rather quickly and is best played in repetitive 8th or 16th notes. An active neck through 5 string (or even an active neck through 4 string) has far more natural sustain and a much longer "volume envelope" (if you will).

One other thing to consider is use of a pick vs finger bass. Use of a pick affords far less expressiveness (via dynamics) opposed to finger bass which has a slightly softer attack but far greater expressiveness.

So you've got to make a choice on which ~era~ of bass tone you wish to emulate before you can take a single step forward.



thumbs up
felixer
Rex Coil 7 wrote:
use of a pick vs finger bass. Use of a pick affords far less expressiveness (via dynamics) opposed to finger bass which has a slightly softer attack but far greater expressiveness.

what a load of bull ... the playing is in the hand. i can play as expressive as i want with a pick!
Rex Coil 7
felixer wrote:
Rex Coil 7 wrote:
use of a pick vs finger bass. Use of a pick affords far less expressiveness (via dynamics) opposed to finger bass which has a slightly softer attack but far greater expressiveness.

what a load of bull ... the playing is in the hand. i can play as expressive as i want with a pick!
Well let's give you a trophy!

Use of a pick produces a more ~compressed~ type sound with less dynamic control and expression. I've been playing bass since 1990. I've recorded over 250 songs. I've played live all over the south western USA. I've built over one dozen basses. My opinion on this is not baseless.

So I guess the likes of Geddy Lee and other rock bass players are full of bull too?

You will NEVER .... EVER .... be able to produce a slapped sound with a pick. Not ever. Playing fingerstyle provides far more options to the player. You can go from deeply aggressive slapped sounds to smooth repetitive ~thump~ (like Rocco Prestia in the song by Tower Of Power called "What Is Hip").


calaveras
Rex Coil 7 wrote:
felixer wrote:
Rex Coil 7 wrote:
use of a pick vs finger bass. Use of a pick affords far less expressiveness (via dynamics) opposed to finger bass which has a slightly softer attack but far greater expressiveness.

what a load of bull ... the playing is in the hand. i can play as expressive as i want with a pick!
Well let's give you a trophy!

Use of a pick produces a more ~compressed~ type sound with less dynamic control and expression. I've been playing bass since 1990. I've recorded over 250 songs. I've played live all over the south western USA. I've built over one dozen basses. My opinion on this is not baseless.

So I guess the likes of Geddy Lee and other rock bass players are full of bull too?

You will NEVER .... EVER .... be able to produce a slapped sound with a pick. Not ever. Playing fingerstyle provides far more options to the player. You can go from deeply aggressive slapped sounds to smooth repetitive ~thump~ (like Rocco Prestia in the song by Tower Of Power called "What Is Hip").



Been playing bass since 1982. Recorded over 250 songs with my current project alone. I play pick and fingerstyle.
There is nothing that cuts like a pick. There is nothing as warm sounding as fingerstyle. Neither is better than the other. Just use the right tool for the job.
I've evolved the technique to do both simultaneously. Just tuck the pick out of the way when I am not using it. Works great playing melodic metal stuff with soft intricate parts and full on heavy parts. Utilize those dynamics!
Gringo Starr
gringostar wrote:
Seems relevant to this thread



Nice name gringostar. Crash

I always thought JFA sounded like shit. What a horrific mix. I remember when that album came out and I knew nothing about mixing or even the concept. I remember thinking how terrible it sounded and blamed it on the absence of Cliff.

Metallica for me ended when Cliff died. Their first three studio albums are brilliant. After that it was never the same for me. I don’t know if that’s directly related to Cliffs passing or maybe that would’ve happened anyway. Who knows?

I agree with some of the comments here though. The bass didn’t seem to jump out so much although it was obviously significant. Orion is such a good song for some great bass sounds though. Wish I had some ideas for you other than you needing Cliffs hair and fingers to get that sound.
sygor
I think the original question mainly relates to the guitar tone on Justice, since there's effectively no bass guitar. I always thought the weird bass whoomp was from EQing bass into the sound that wasn't really there, like the EQ was on the verge of oscillating. I've got no real idea if that's what it was but that's what it sounds like to me. It would also explain why the bass is so 'woolly' and quite late after the notes.
I've listening to that album so many times I've actually grown to really like that guitar sound!
felixer
Rex Coil 7 wrote:
felixer wrote:
Rex Coil 7 wrote:
use of a pick vs finger bass. Use of a pick affords far less expressiveness (via dynamics) opposed to finger bass which has a slightly softer attack but far greater expressiveness.

what a load of bull ... the playing is in the hand. i can play as expressive as i want with a pick!
Well let's give you a trophy!

Use of a pick produces a more ~compressed~ type sound with less dynamic control and expression. I've been playing bass since 1990. I've recorded over 250 songs. I've played live all over the south western USA. I've built over one dozen basses. My opinion on this is not baseless.

So I guess the likes of Geddy Lee and other rock bass players are full of bull too?

You will NEVER .... EVER .... be able to produce a slapped sound with a pick. Not ever. Playing fingerstyle provides far more options to the player. You can go from deeply aggressive slapped sounds to smooth repetitive ~thump~ (like Rocco Prestia in the song by Tower Of Power called "What Is Hip").



oh man, you're SOOOO good and experienced. wow. then how come with all this talent, you're not rich and famous ... it's obvious: someone else is at fault lol
Technologear?
felixer wrote:
i can play as expressive as i want with a pick!


Did you 'pick' up your defensiveness from Jason Newsted? Interview W JN
felixer
Technologear? wrote:
felixer wrote:
i can play as expressive as i want with a pick!


Did you 'pick' up your defensiveness from Jason Newsted? Interview W JN

and who are you? just another bandwagon jumper ...
never, ever compare me to jason. i don't need to be (and am not) defensive. back to playing with a pick. i use a stone pick (that doesn't bend at all)... you have a few fingers left so you can alternate, even within one line. as for slapping: i do it with the knuckel of my thumb, if i need to. but i don't find it an appealing sound, so ... i have done it with 1 (or 2) slides in my right hand. works better, is less bloody and gives rise to some nice 'rubbing' fx ... sounds a bit like a bow ...
but the main advantage is a much more precise/cutting sound. obviously you need the right notes. no cheating!
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