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WIGGLING 'LITE' IN GUEST MODE

paperface/73-75 vs STS
MUFF WIGGLER Forum Index -> Buchla, EMS & Serge Goto page 1, 2  Next [all]
Author paperface/73-75 vs STS
anselmi
I just saw the 73-75 panels and they´re way cheaper than the STS ones, so I started to read about both and the differences between them, but I´m still confused

would you introduce me to the Serge world with a little scheme of the main differences and why such a difference in cost? I´m talking about the 73-75 reissues, that maybe are not at the same level of the originals...I don´t know

thanks!
Triglav
The 73-75 is the first generation of Serge modules, meaning no NTO, DUSG, VCM, VCFQ/S or ResEQ. It's also DIY. (That doesn't mean it's not awesome.)

In contrast, STS is pre-built and has everything but it's by far the priciest of the Serge offerings. Take a look at Random*Source, loudestwarning and elby-designs for more affordable versions of the same modules. (They are all official, licensed circuits by Serge himself)
anselmi
Triglav wrote:
The 73-75 is the first generation of Serge modules, meaning no NTO, DUSG, VCM, VCFQ/S or ResEQ.


thanks for the info, but I already know this...I´m looking for a more developed answer, like what are the differences infeatures and sound of oscillators, filters and the like between both

Quote:
It's also DIY. (That doesn't mean it's not awesome.)


I didn´t know this...such a shame...my DIY skills are lame
Anyway, I found what seems to be already assembled panels for "cheap" in Reverb seriously, i just don't get it


Quote:
Take a look at Random*Source, loudestwarning and elby-designs for more affordable versions of the same modules. (They are all official, licensed circuits by Serge himself)


yeah, I started there, and they just saw the 73-75 project so I was looking for information...I think I´d have to revisit the R*S option
the bad producer
In general one can talk about 4 'generations' of Serge, the 73-75 set is based on the'first and second generations, these were the first circuits Serge created (between those years, hence the name), for a bit more history have a look at this:

http://www.elby-designs.com/webtek/euro-serge/documentation/book_1.pdf

From the introduction:
Quote:

This was the guiding principle of the early Serge:
make available electronic functions that are interesting
in themselves, though seemingly "un-musical".
Thus modules like the positive slew, negative slew, peak
and trough, comparators, processors and wave
shapers, etc. came into existence.


The 3rd generation were newer circuits, introduced in 1977. This included the DUSG, TWM etc. Then in 1981 the 4th generation was introduced, including the WAD, QUO, NCOM etc. This is all cribbed from the internet, so may not be super accurate, but AFAIK is correct. The STS line is 4th gen.

The differences are both subjective and objective - for example some prefer the sound of the 73 VCF to the VCFQ, others don't. But one thing is certain, the later VCFQ is a more 'developed' circuit.
papz
The older the revision the better the sound.
That's a basic rule of the musical instruments world and applies to any synth. twisted
chorus7
Having owned both STS and now a 73-75 (which I’m selling unfortunately) I can say the 73-75 is raw sounding... it seems more electric sounding like old 60s 70s sci-fi sounds... but because it’s so stripped down it begs to be experimented on... patching up new ways to make things work results in some amazing sounds... The closest thing I can compare it to is Buchla 100... very percussive and droney...
wavecircle
I think the 73-75 is fairly limited on filters, if any on the DIY system?

The DIY 73-75 doesn't have the amazing flexibility of the SSG, DTG or DUSG, just the positive and negative slews. The SSG and DTG/DUSG are essential modules, so powerful and versatile.

The lack of filters on the DIY system is the kicker for me. I've only had the VQVCF but they all sound amazing in their own way.
dbernhardt58
Shortly after i started a Eurorack system, I started getting some R*S 3U Serge modules, as well as a few Elby 3U Serge modules. The R*S are more modern modules like SSG, DUSG, ResEQ, VCFQ, VCFS, NCOM; while the Elby are the older: 73 EG, Triple Bi-Directional Switch, Slope Detector, ASR. I was a beginner at modular synth (still am, really). Then I decided to add some Loudest Warning format 4U stuff, and also found a 4U COA Sequencer/Programmer panel. Then I added the 73-75 Homebuild (I didn't build it, I found someone to do that for me).

Learning Serge takes a good bit of effort. You need to read the old manuals, search out any video demos you can find, analyze Eurorack patch tutorials to see how they apply to the Serge, maybe take some Skype/Facetime lessons if you feel like it, and more. The good news is there are a good number of videos: Doug Lynner, Todd Barton, Batchas, etc.

I documented my journey starting at the beginning fairly thoroughly here on MW. Just do a search for my posts - most are video demos with patch notes - if you want to see the 73-75 system. I don't think it's limiting, I think it is liberating to have that set of modules in two panels. Take what you hear online with a grain of salt, because sound quality of the recording and videos varies from great to barely OK.

I think it's like any modular journey: you benefit from doing a lot of research first, and adding modules (or panels, if you go that route) slowly. Not that I added slowly, of course, which I only regret because I got a little overwhelmed. That's why I started taking lessons, and it's helped.

Also, what is your take on electronic music/sound/composition? For me, learning about the hardware and playing with it, and listening back is half the effort; the rest is trying to understand the broader historical context, and what is happening now. I have been reading "Composing Electronic Music, A New Aesthetic" by Curtis Roads, which has lots of sound examples you can listen to on-line. The range of expression will blow your mind, if you want to expand your listening experience (of course the electronic music tools used on many of these examples goes far beyond any set of Serge modules). I also listen as much as I can to podcasts to hear curated electronic music.

So you get and idea and try to patch it up; rinse, repeat. I think any Serge generation of modules and any format will be bring a super fun and musical experience. If that aligns with your personal goals, go for it.
Gandalf
dbernhardt58 wrote:
Shortly after i started a Eurorack system, I started getting some R*S 3U Serge modules, as well as a few Elby 3U Serge modules. The R*S are more modern modules like SSG, DUSG, ResEQ, VCFQ, VCFS, NCOM; while the Elby are the older: 73 EG, Triple Bi-Directional Switch, Slope Detector, ASR. I was a beginner at modular synth (still am, really). Then I decided to add some Loudest Warning format 4U stuff, and also found a 4U COA Sequencer/Programmer panel. Then I added the 73-75 Homebuild (I didn't build it, I found someone to do that for me).

Learning Serge takes a good bit of effort. You need to read the old manuals, search out any video demos you can find, analyze Eurorack patch tutorials to see how they apply to the Serge, maybe take some Skype/Facetime lessons if you feel like it, and more. The good news is there are a good number of videos: Doug Lynner, Todd Barton, Batchas, etc.

I documented my journey starting at the beginning fairly thoroughly here on MW. Just do a search for my posts - most are video demos with patch notes - if you want to see the 73-75 system. I don't think it's limiting, I think it is liberating to have that set of modules in two panels. Take what you hear online with a grain of salt, because sound quality of the recording and videos varies from great to barely OK.

I think it's like any modular journey: you benefit from doing a lot of research first, and adding modules (or panels, if you go that route) slowly. Not that I added slowly, of course, which I only regret because I got a little overwhelmed. That's why I started taking lessons, and it's helped.

Also, what is your take on electronic music/sound/composition? For me, learning about the hardware and playing with it, and listening back is half the effort; the rest is trying to understand the broader historical context, and what is happening now. I have been reading "Composing Electronic Music, A New Aesthetic" by Curtis Roads, which has lots of sound examples you can listen to on-line. The range of expression will blow your mind, if you want to expand your listening experience (of course the electronic music tools used on many of these examples goes far beyond any set of Serge modules). I also listen as much as I can to podcasts to hear curated electronic music.

So you get and idea and try to patch it up; rinse, repeat. I think any Serge generation of modules and any format will be bring a super fun and musical experience. If that aligns with your personal goals, go for it.

I suggest you recheck the EuroSerge catalogue from ELBY Designs. Their range covers just about everything from the 1st Series to the 4th Series so with the exceptions of the PCO, NTO and later filters, you will find pretty much all of the Serge stuff there and that includes the SSG, USG, ResEQ...
dbernhardt58
I was referring to the Elby modules that I have added to my modular; not to the range of Elby modules that are available. I am quite aware that Elby features a wide range of Serge modules, and is constantly expanding that range. If I was independently wealthy I assure you I would have one or two of each.

Anybody who gives two shits about any of this goes to everybody's website and figures out what's available. Sorry about that.
aethyr
RS is almost as expensive as STS woah
syncretism
aethyr wrote:
RS is almost as expensive as STS woah


It's not exactly apples to apples because you can buy modules from R*S in addition to full panels (and STS M-CLass was discontinued, IIRC), but a new La Bestia panel comes is well below the price of a new Animal. New R*S panels are about what you would pay for second-hand STS.


That said, all Serge format (maybe all 4u?) stuff is expensive. I'm not saying it's overpriced; it just costs a lot, compared to 5u and Euro. I can't speak to the economics of that.
Prunesquallor
syncretism wrote:
aethyr wrote:
RS is almost as expensive as STS woah


It's not exactly apples to apples because you can buy modules from R*S in addition to full panels (and STS M-CLass was discontinued, IIRC), but a new La Bestia panel comes is well below the price of a new Animal. New R*S panels are about what you would pay for second-hand STS.


That said, all Serge format (maybe all 4u?) stuff is expensive. I'm not saying it's overpriced; it just costs a lot, compared to 5u and Euro. I can't speak to the economics of that.


A built R*S panel works out at 300-350 Euros per module, which is in the ballpark of any premium module. It just seems steep because you're buying 7 or 8 together in one panel. If you were to buy the same number of Verbos or Cwejman modules the cost would be significantly more.

Regarding Serge generations, I think Ken Stone's CGS stuff (as built by Loudest Warning or Elby) is sufficiently different from STS to call it generation 4.5. R*S then would be generation 5. But this does not mean that one is superior to the other, just different.
tmeade
syncretism wrote:
aethyr wrote:
RS is almost as expensive as STS woah


It's not exactly apples to apples because you can buy modules from R*S in addition to full panels (and STS M-CLass was discontinued, IIRC), but a new La Bestia panel comes is well below the price of a new Animal. New R*S panels are about what you would pay for second-hand STS.


M-modules are discontinued? That is news to me. When did that happen?
syncretism
I think I read that a couple years ago; my sincere apologies if I'm misinformed.
peeninety
Does anybody know if the pre-built 73-75 panels are available yet?
sanders
papz wrote:
The older the revision the better the sound.
That's a basic rule of the musical instruments world and applies to any synth. twisted


This quote is worthy of framing
thetwlo
aethyr wrote:
RS is almost as expensive as STS woah


true, but RS has been re-designed and upgraded, better op amps. vap.. an' shit.
Still that doesn't mean we might prefer the sound of the 73-75.
I can't tell what you even are buying at their site 73-75. Two options, same price. no clue what's included.
cygmu
thetwlo wrote:

I can't tell what you even are buying at their site 73-75. Two options, same price. no clue what's included.


There aren't two options, only one. When you have just one product I guess your "new products" and your "popular products" tend to be the same thing... so it gets listed twice thanks to lazy deployment of a web store template I suppose.

There's a little more info if you click through:
Quote:

Package contains two front panels and three circuit boards (2x main board and 1x PSU).
drift
tmeade wrote:


M-modules are discontinued? That is news to me. When did that happen?


Rex has new creature v2 & audio interface M-class panels with boat and power supply for sale on Reverb.
The Grump
If you want what are arguably the best (in terms of flexibility, power, features, quality of build, and currently being worked on and improved by The Old Master, Serge himself), Serge modules and panels, go with R*S. That also directly supports Tcherepnine, which STS does not.

He still endorses 73-75, because it's basically a part for part remake of The People's Synthesizer, but the R*S stuff has his newest tweeks and ideas incorporated. Things like an NTO with a Pulse output, or the 4x4 panels, such as DUSG Mk2 XL. Little added features that go a long way. No, the R*S stuff isn't cheap, but we're talking about synthesis masterpieces.

Food for thought.
MechaSeb
Non-exhaustive list but this is the idea :

1st Generation (1973) :

R1 PRC Dual voltage processor
R2 MIX Dual mixer
R3 P&T Peak and trough
R4 ROU Triple bidirectional router
R5 TWS Triple waveshaper & dual mixer
R6 MOD Gate/ring modulator
R7 ENV Envelope generator
R8 VCO Voltage controlled oscillator
R9 NEG Dual negative slew
R10 POS Dual positive slew
R11 COM Triple comparator and Schmitt trigger
R12 VCF Voltage controlled filter
R13 PSD Power supply decoupling
R14 HGA High gain amps
R15 PRG Programmer
R16 SEQ Sequencer

2nd Generation

SSG20 Smooth and stepped function generator
NOISE Noise generator and s&h
PHA Vc phase shifter
PREVERB Reverb
dual MIX Dual Mixer
1075SR ASR analog shift register
1175SS HC (??)
TRK Touch responsive keyboard, from Synapse
KEG Env gen.

3rd Generation (1977)

101 QCA Quad vca
102 PAN Dual stereo equal power driver
103 MIXER Dual mixer
104 QPAN Quadraphonic equal power driver
106 NTO/VCO Pco and nto core
107 NTO/CON Nto vc waveshaping, vc slew and vc fm
110 VCF2 Variable bandwidth vcf
111 VCFS Variable slope vcf
112 VCFQ Variable q vcf / extended range vcf
113 VCM Wave multipliers
114 DSG Dual universal slope generator/dual transient generator
115 KBD Touch activated keyboard sequencer TKB
116 ADSR Extended adsr
PEF Pitch and envelope follower

4th Generation (1981)

201 AP Active processor
202 EQ Resonant equalizer
203 MIX Audio mixer, cv processing/scaling/buffering etc.
204 SQP N step sequencer/programmer
205 NCOM Divide/n comparator, dual comparator, Schmitt trigger
206 VCA1 Dual VCA
207 VCA2 Stereo equal power driver
208 WAD Wilson Analog Delay
209 RING Balanced modulator
210 QUAN Quantizer
212 QUO Quadrature oscillator
214 2VCA Dual exponential response vca
215 EF Envelope follower and preamp
216 MDAC N voice
225 PDIV STS Pulse Divider
229 AMX STS Audio Mixer w/ Phase Switch

You have a lot of information on Ken website : http://serge.synth.net/
MindMachine
^ Nice list. So fun to peruse and imagine how all of the different generations would interact.

Pulse Divider PDIV, Boolean Logic BLOG, Control Voltage Interface CVI, CV Mix CMX, Audio Mixer AMX, Midi to CV CV8, (and some of the quantizers I think) are STS - not Serge.

And what is this? 207 VCA2 Stereo equal power driver?

Wish I had the N Voice, an ADSR and an AP or VCA1.
the bad producer
206 + 207 = UAP etc

I must admit to still getting confused with the acronyms!
MindMachine
the bad producer wrote:
206 + 207 = UAP etc

I must admit to still getting confused with the acronyms!


Was the 207 VCA2 Stereo equal power driver ever an actual module?
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