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Alternatives to Q108
MUFF WIGGLER Forum Index -> 5U Format Modules  
Author Alternatives to Q108
Putte
This far, I´ve been using Q108s in the ends of my patches, to control both gate and pitch signals. I wonder what alternatives there are. Especialy if I want to squeeze in more than one patch, and still control their each volumes
For example, what about the Grove audio GMS-714 Quad VCA and the krisp1 Dual VCA or the Quad VCA?
Rex Coil 7
Putte wrote:
... the krisp1 Dual VCA or the Quad VCA?
(Which is the Oakley Dual/Quad VCA).

I've got six of those boards, and all of the goodies to populate them. Just sayin'.

One thing you could do is go with either the Dual or the Quad, and feed the mix into a CP3 mixer circuit. The CP3 can easily be made into a single channel module (instead of a mixer) using the Manhattan Analog CP3 clone kit. I have four of those. So use the Dual or Quad to mix whatever signals you want to do that to, then send the summed output into the tricked out single channel CP3 for that soft distortion flavoring.

If designed well, all of that could easily be put into a 2sp panel.

Just another of my goofball ideas. Nutter! nuts Cheesy! Drugs dizzy
Putte
Thanks for helping me out here, Rex Coil 7, but I Think I was a bit unclear. I don´t want to mix patches in some kind of mixer/VCA. I want to be able to control the volume of individual outputs. In this case, it could be up to three patches.

Normally, I would get three Q108s for this, but I want some thing more compact (and cheaper!). That´s why I concider the Grove audio Quad VCA, which should be enough to just control the output volumes of four separate patches…… right?

That would save up most space, but I´m also considering the krisp1 Dual VCA and the Quad VCA.
Rex Coil 7
Putte wrote:
Thanks for helping me out here, Rex Coil 7, but I Think I was a bit unclear. I don´t want to mix patches in some kind of mixer/VCA. I want to be able to control the volume of individual outputs. In this case, it could be up to three patches.

Normally, I would get three Q108s for this, but I want some thing more compact (and cheaper!). That´s why I concider the Grove audio Quad VCA, which should be enough to just control the output volumes of four separate patches…… right?

That would save up most space, but I´m also considering the krisp1 Dual VCA and the Quad VCA.
Yea, I got what you meant. Read my post again ... what I suggested was all about giving you options. You may either come out of each VCA individually, or you may take the sum output and run that through something else.

Or not.

The Oakely Quad (or Dual) VCA would work for what you want to do. Krisp1 builds Oakley kits and sells them as assembled/tested modules, which is why I keep referring to Oakley.

Carry on.

thumbs up
Thalassa
Maybe my corsynth c108 dual vca or the C107 quad vca mixer smile

The c107 is four vcas with individual outputs and several submixers between vcas. I use it all the time.

https://corsynth.com/home/modules/c107
https://corsynth.com/home/modules/c108
burdij
Putte wrote:
That´s why I concider the Grove audio Quad VCA, which should be enough to just control the output volumes of four separate patches…… right?


Yes, the four amplifiers can be used separately with independent control inputs, each of which has an attenuverter to control the gain and polarity of the control voltage signal. If no control voltage is supplied to the channel CV connector, an internal +5V signal is fed to the control input and the CV control can be used as a simple volume control.

There is an internal mono/stereo mixer that can be used to mix the channel outputs together. A jumper selects whether the feed to the mixer is taken before or after the output connector. This permits selecting whether the channel output always goes to the mixer or whether it is disconnected from the mixer if a connector is inserted into the output jack.
Putte
OK, thanks.
I understood what you meant by Oakley. I´ve got plenty krisp1 modules, and beautiful Grove audio Dual LFO. Great quality panels!
kindredlost
Of course everyone patches differently (isn't the World a great place?)... so my suggestion may be less useful than someone else's.

I like a GAIN control on a final output VCA for the obvious reason of volume control. I usually have several as you say "patches" or things going on at a time so I must have a way to be balance the levels. I combine or mix them in a Mackie mixer before sending to the recording stage but I like to mix levels at the modular.

I have struggled with the second input on the Q108 for years and rarely ever use it. It has dual signal inputs but is not a mixer. The way they are mixed is at 100% or unity. The "Control Input #1" is adjustable with the knobs above them but not the Control #2. So it doesn't exactly work well as a mixer really. There is no audio signal mixing control on the Q108. All knob functions affect the control voltage inputs.

If you want to save module space then the Quad VCA from Grove Audio seems like the most powerful choice by far. It is capable of a wide variety of routing and panning functions and remains a single space module. According to the user manual you can use the control knobs on each channel as gain controls until you patch in a control voltage from an EG then the knobs are used as attenuators, so you may still be challenged by level control and have to resort to a mixer.

One option to save space is to have Phil at Mega Ohm Audio retrofit your Q109 Envelope Generators with VCA Rider Kits. You can do this yourself too. It is very easy and I have done it on almost all of my EG's. Then you can avoid using a Q108 VCA with a Q109 EG as a final amplitude shaping stage. You can use a four channel mixer or even the Q113 eight channel mixer as a final control for levels. This is probably the most cost efficient space saver of all if you use Q109's.

The new rider module for the Synthetic Sound Labs Octal VCA is in the pipeline if Doug Slocum can find enough people to get it rolling. The rider module is eight AR/AD switchable stages for the eight VCA's in the main module. In three module spaces you can have eight VCA's with Attack Release or Attack Decay stages. Still, you will be level or gain challenged and a final eight channel mixer would be useful.
Dilibob
Q114 is my most used module, is also pretty small.
Putte
Thanks, all of you.
I agree with you, kindredlost. I prefer to control the volume as the signal leaves the modular, and not on the mixer. The way I understand this, there has to be a gain control then, even though it rarely moves from value 0. Am I right?

Instead of the Rider kits for Q109, Ihave two krisp1 VCA/EGs. They should work in the same way, I guess, but the thing is I want to have that volume control. It seems I have to go for two krisp1 Dual VCAs, something similar, or perhaps one krisp1 Quad VCA.

You (kindredlost) suggest ending up with a mixer, Q112 and Q113 being mentioned, but I need every signal separated. Different amounts reverb and especially delay for each one of them on the mixer (MGP32X).

Eventually, it ccomes down to that gain challenge. I could, of coarse, adjust level as the signals from the oscillators pass through my Q113s. But that means turning two or three knobs every time (I like three oscillators together, fatter!), and I can´t help feeling that there has to be a level control at the end of the line.
Putte
Just to add an idea, probably a stupid one. What if there was no Initial gain control knob on the Q108. Would gain be set to 0 then, seeing as it almost never is moved upwards anyway (I think mr Arrick himself mentions in a video it normally is set to 0). If so, what would the disadvantages be if that hole in the panel instead was used for a Control #2 level.

Hey, I´m just having tired thoughts here.
Dr Gris
You can try my GMS-714 if you'd like.
It's the most space saving module I know of that does what it does.
I don't use it much because I find it a bit cramped but it's probably great when doing bigger patches.
I've used it for cv controlled panning thumbs up

We're both in Sweden, shoot me a PM and I can send it to you for a tryout.

//M
trentpmcd
Thalassa wrote:
Maybe my corsynth c108 dual vca or the C107 quad vca mixer smile

The c107 is four vcas with individual outputs and several submixers between vcas. I use it all the time.

https://corsynth.com/home/modules/c107
https://corsynth.com/home/modules/c108

I'll second this. Love the C107 - I use it in every patch even if it isn't always the last VCA in the audio chain. I can't compare it to the Grove or Krisp1, but it is a great module.
kindredlost
Putte wrote:
Just to add an idea, probably a stupid one. What if there was no Initial gain control knob on the Q108. Would gain be set to 0 then, seeing as it almost never is moved upwards anyway (I think mr Arrick himself mentions in a video it normally is set to 0). If so, what would the disadvantages be if that hole in the panel instead was used for a Control #2 level.

Hey, I´m just having tired thoughts here.


I think there are a few good reasons there is a GAIN control. One is if you are using the VCA for control voltages and need an offset. Another reason is for simple audio gain control. There are many times when I use a Q108 as a final output gain stage. Another use is if you are working a drone signal and want to use an LFO or some other modifier to blend with the drone then about 50% gain and 50% control voltage is just the ticket. A VCA is not always last in the signal train.

EDIT:
I deleted a suggested pot move dialog. I am not where I can verify anything (at work currently) so until I can try it myself I have no idea if moving a pot on the Q108 board is a good idea or not.
Putte
I´m sure there are tens or hundreds of different ways to use a VCA, like the Q108. It´s just me somehow restricting myself to only using them as end stations. Someone who probably knows modulars well once wrote on the forum that you never can have enough VCAs.
I have four, and only once or twice in my modular active seven years have I tried something other than that ending function. I had built my own keyboard, and wanted to know if the aftertouch could control a filter (Q107). It could, when I got the Q108 right, but it was difficult getting the right amount of frequency.
Anyway, I think a krisp1 Quad VCA is what I want.
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