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WIGGLING 'LITE' IN GUEST MODE

krisp1 TZ VCO
MUFF WIGGLER Forum Index -> 5U Format Modules Goto page 1, 2  Next [all]
Author krisp1 TZ VCO
Putte
The krisp1 TZ VCO seems to have only one input for pitch, am I right? In my Q106s, I usually need one for incoming pitch from sequencers, and one from my my bass pedal board. I use the bass pedals mostly for transposing the sequences. Therefore I need at least two 1v/Oct inputs.

Am I missing something here? I´m thinking the Lin FM input or even the Exp FM could be what I´m searching for, or else I have to exchange TZ VCOs from my to buy list for something else.
kindredlost
A unity mixer would make this workable. Basically that is what the 1V/OCT Exponential inputs on the Q106 are performing in the standard factory configuration. (If not jumpered to make a multiple from the center jack).

STG Soundlabs makes a Buffered Mult and Unity Mixer module which is very handy for this type of thing. It is the “Active Multiples” module.
diophantine
You should be able to use the Expo In jack with the pot fully clockwise.

Typically the Expo In jack on any module is just an attenuated 1V/Oct jack.
Gizmo
diophantine wrote:
You should be able to use the Expo In jack with the pot fully clockwise.

Right, use EXP FM input with the EXP FM control set to 10.
ba1
All of the above + I'll add that I have two TZVCOs. They are pretty much my favorite VCOs in any format ever!
Putte
Great, thanks all of you. The plan remains unchanged.
ratch
ba1 wrote:
All of the above + I'll add that I have two TZVCOs. They are pretty much my favorite VCOs in any format ever!


Agreed! I have a Krsip1 + and an MOTM format Teezer and they DESTROY.
bwhittington
diophantine wrote:
You should be able to use the Expo In jack with the pot fully clockwise.

Typically the Expo In jack on any module is just an attenuated 1V/Oct jack.


Is that your experience? I've found that a fully opened attenuator can still add enough resistance to affect tuning. Perhaps it wouldn't be enough to matter, but it isn't really unity mixing.
diophantine
bwhittington wrote:
diophantine wrote:
You should be able to use the Expo In jack with the pot fully clockwise.

Typically the Expo In jack on any module is just an attenuated 1V/Oct jack.


Is that your experience? I've found that a fully opened attenuator can still add enough resistance to affect tuning. Perhaps it wouldn't be enough to matter, but it isn't really unity mixing.

Yes, that's my experience (in practice + DIY), though I may not be tuning to the same precision as others.

An ideal pot should show zero resistance in this application at CCW. None are perfect, but I've seen very little issue with this. I imagine a more (or at least as) likely culprit for any significant variation seen here is that the summing resistors on the 1V/Oct inputs (including attenuated ones) are not well-matched.
bwhittington
diophantine wrote:
I imagine a more (or at least as) likely culprit for any significant variation seen here is that the summing resistors on the 1V/Oct inputs (including attenuated ones) are not well-matched.


That makes sense. Curiosity had me scurry off to perform a crude test, and I measured at most a .001v difference in output post attenuator, which could be down to the DMM's accuracy, additional resistance from an added patch cable I used, etc. Which might raise a few questions about the design of an oscillator I had a similar issue with, but that can be for another day.
diophantine
Yeah, and I also said "typically", to cover my ass & since that isn't always a given. hihi Sometimes (though rarely, but as in the Steiner-Parker VCO) the pot actually acts as a variable summing resistor, rather than an attenuator. The MOTM-300 uses different resistor values for the attenuated and unattenuated summing resistors.

But most VCOs that I've worked with (or investigated) do have identical values on paper for those input summing resistors. Even if they are 1% tolerance, at 100k that gives room for way more variability (+/- 1 ohm) than I've seen with a pot (maybe .2 ohms tops?).
Putte
I´d like to get more opinions about the TZ-VCOs, if possible. I´ve listened to the few demos out there, and it seems the thing about it is to get ring modulatorlike sound, dare I say industry sound?

The thing is, I like fat! A bit spoiled by the Minimoog, I try to get Three oscillators in as many patches as possible. Especially the lead sounds. I´m getting the feeling the TZ VCOs aren´t primarly meant for that. What is their thing?

I´ll probably get on first, and sort my questions out from there, but I´d like to hear your opinions too.
josaka
FM type sounds are the strong point.. get some big clangerous sounds and tons of wierd fizzy stuff ..sync it up and sweep the exp/lin FM
at the core they sound quite like Q106 having an anxiety attack.. but .. they can also do everything a 106 does.. leads bass etc
my overriding thought of my two.. capable of magical sounds other osc would struggle to get.. but the gap between getting those sounds is a bit too long..sfx monsters.. bonging type square bass or leads.. Very interesting.. but as main osc.. maybe not.. then again.. you can use them in tons of ways .. very flexible.. so you can use them as main osc..

I thing the twoing and froing of this post sums them up exactly.. smile


ps: if you are thinking of double FM osc.. the lin/exp FM just take the most miniscule movement to completely change the timbre of the sound..!
Putte
It´s the fizzyness I´m thinking of. Not much use having three VCOs for that, right. The question I´m struggling with is, shloud I get two or Three of them?
burdij
When setting up an FM operator patch, you will probably want to use the oscillators in modulator/oscillator pairs. Also to get the cleanest synthesized sounds such as good bell or gong simulations, the two oscillators will need clean sine wave outputs. In this demo, I used a version of the Wysynth digital TZO which tracks 1V/Oct well and has a low distortion sine out with a TipTop Audio VCO with not so good tracking and a sine out with quite a bit of distortion. The result, as you can hear, is a lot of in-harmonic behavior that results in an undesirable amount of noise in the higher registers especially evident as the tracking error increases. The art of FM synthesis is in the control of the way that the in-harmonic sounds develop as the waveform decays. This gives the characteristic sound identified as a bell or gong or a plucked string as the fundamental and harmonic partials decay.



The best results will occur when the two oscillators of each operator track well, even when offset by a number of octaves. This will also help to minimize the deviation of the note pitch which is another characteristic of pure FM synthesis and the reason why commercial FM synthesizers did not use FM but rather phase modulation. The Wysynth TZO has the ability to do PM and I hope to get a demo of this done at some point.
josaka
Putte wrote:
It´s the fizzyness I´m thinking of. Not much use having three VCOs for that, right. The question I´m struggling with is, shloud I get two or Three of them?


Johns patch above is a good example of the FM (although I think the Krisp TZ have a fuller sound) .. there are a lot of other sounds of course..
I dont have 3 so I cant really tell you if there is a big advantage my insticts are telling me not.. but why not get 1 or 2 and see.. smile

the sync is great and the cross mod options are very good.. sonically its very heavy.. square + 1/2 square + pwm(pwm is decent not earth shatteringly phasey) the sync 'edges' options are great though (really dont know why more designers dont use this..) another winner is the FM Depth this also really works well.. hard to tame.. but when you do it is epic.
Putte
Thanks, all of you. I´m sticking to my plan, getting one at a time. Not sure the economy allows me to do anything else.
Putte
Had my first opportunity to spend some quality time with my TZ VCO today, and.... it´s different. Great fun FM modulating, but I´m not sure what would come out of it if I had a pair of them. Sure, I´ll get at least one more, just to build up enough pairs of different VCO:s.
Anyway, another of those invitingly high quality knob feeling modules from krisp1. But, what is Through Zero?
josaka
congrats on your first TZ ! smile
Gizmo
Putte wrote:
But, what is Through Zero?

Strictly, Through Zero is the behavior of an oscillator such that negative pitch control voltages result in (a) an inverted waveform with (b) a frequency same as if the negative control voltage were positive (i.e., opposite sign). This is sometimes called "negative frequency," a term that is more confusing than helpful, in my opinion. By contrast, an "ordinary" (non-TZ) oscillator does not respond in this way to net-negative pitch control voltages; it simply produces its lowest capable frequency.

Stated another way: Apply a positive FM pitch control voltage to a TZ oscillator to produce an audio frequency. Reduce the FM pitch control to zero volts, the oscillator pitch descends to zero Hz. Continue reducing the FM pitch control into the negative range. The oscillator pitch *increases* correspondingly with more negative voltage, but now with an inverted waveform.

As it happens, the Krisp1 TZ oscillator responds appropriately to linear FM pitch control BUT does not produce an inverted waveform from negative control voltages. (This usually has no audible impact.)
Rex Coil 7
... that video always creeps me the hell out. "We want zeroscillator" and the slow nearly invisible nodding of the head to convey the positive ..... reminds me (too much) of "2 + 2 = 5" ... Ministry of Truth ... NewSpeak ... Doublethink ... Blackwhite.

... ~shudder~ ...

eek!
Dave Peck
Rex Coil 7 wrote:
... that video always creeps me the hell out. "We want zeroscillator" and the slow nearly invisible nodding of the head to convey the positive ..... reminds me (too much) of "2 + 2 = 5" ... Ministry of Truth ... NewSpeak ... Doublethink ... Blackwhite.



I rather enjoy Cynthia's dry sense of humor in her delivery. To me it seems more like a bit of parody of some kind of public school educational film.
Gizmo
But you almost expect that it would have embedded subliminal messages, like "Buy Zeroscillator" "Zeroscillator Good, Your Oscillator Bad" "You Want Zeroscillator" "Get Zeroscillator Now" etc.
Putte
Thanks for helping me out. Especially Gizmo, explaining it just as basic as I need.
valgamaa
Gizmo wrote:
Putte wrote:
But, what is Through Zero?

As it happens, the Krisp1 TZ oscillator responds appropriately to linear FM pitch control BUT does not produce an inverted waveform from negative control voltages. (This usually has no audible impact.)


Wrong. The VCO, like all TZ-VCO's reverses the waveform when zero-frequency is crossed. This is essential for correct operation, and would be very audible if this didn't happen.
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