Modular ego damaged

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Dennis
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Modular ego damaged

Post by Dennis » Mon Aug 12, 2019 11:19 am

hey folks!

i had a gig on saturday evening and all was going really well. been playing my rack since a few months and got a really nice flow. mixing, compression is fine tuned via multiple monitors, headphones and other speakers. (except big PAs)

while playing my gig someone from the crowd yelled: '' more bass man!!!!! more baaaaaass!!!!'' i know him and he's not the kind of guy that just yells random shit at you........ so that got myself thinking: ''is my bass heavy/loud enough?''

at home i have genelec 8020 with an ESI Sub10 active, and had to watch out for resonance on my filters because of rumbling my living room.

my bass is in short: loquelic iterates percido mixed with shapeshifter (both outputs) into filter 8 into make noise qpas


besides that, i never heard a harder hitting, more shattering, heavier sounding, deeper bass than a tuned down modular OSC (doesn't really matter wich one.....) - at home.

i don't know if it was the PA or maybe that guy had way too many drinks? am i overthinking? i just want my gigs to entertain people and get them dancing (what they certainly did) but im afraid if my sound lacks anything

:hmm:

later i will upload a more recent tune to my band camp so you can have a reference for my sound



i will name it: reeb
maybe you could give me some feedback in terms of mixing/mastering


thanks in advance and have a good one :sb:

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BDProject
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Post by BDProject » Mon Aug 12, 2019 11:46 am

Hey there,

On that one track, there isn't much low-end information indeed. I'm not sure if what you played for your gig was similar, but that could explain that guy's reaction. You could try addressing that with a simple sub bass to reinforce your main bass line. You could also have a kick drum with more low end / punch as well.

Cheers,

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TEKBRAIN
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Post by TEKBRAIN » Mon Aug 12, 2019 12:29 pm

Maybe have look at https://xenoandoaklander.bandcamp.com
Thy have bass without bass a little bit like yourself but more audible.
Just my opinion as listener, I'm not a professional.

dburpasaurus
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Post by dburpasaurus » Mon Aug 12, 2019 12:40 pm

That is a cool track but yes, what BDP says - no real low end there. Either need a lower bassline or kick with more low end information. Or both, but harder to mix live.

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lasesentaysiete
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Re: Modular ego damaged

Post by lasesentaysiete » Mon Aug 12, 2019 12:48 pm

Dennis wrote: mixing, compression is fine tuned via multiple monitors, headphones and other speakers. (except big PAs)
Do you eq the bass a lot when you record or mix? If you listen to multiple speakers in the same environment, your problem could be room acoustics affecting perceived bass levels. That is to say, you may be perceiving more bass than is actually being produced because of your room. Headphones can help, but sometimes the problem is not that easy to spot. You could try measuring your room acoustics.

Also, it could have simply been an isolated and erroneous interpretation on the part of the listener.

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Post by Dennis » Mon Aug 12, 2019 1:42 pm

thanks for the fast answers.....
i currently am looking at abletons visual functions to compare frequency content to other songs. maybe i can see the needed frequencies better than hearing

as mentioned by lasesentaysiete, maybe my room acoustics make it hard to really make out my bass levels.

i dont EQ my bass, i just use a shakmat hipass for other sounds to clear them lower freqs up and just take bass duties from the actual bass rig.


thanks again, still happy to hear new input :hail:

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hemeroscopium
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Post by hemeroscopium » Mon Aug 12, 2019 1:48 pm

Treat your room is the 1st step. Then you'll star hearing what you do. Proper monitors help too.

If you cant, get some spectra analysis software and check recordings. Look for sub base & base freq and compare with tracks you like.

If possible, do a pre gig sound check. Even if you didnt add enough thump, the venue sound guy might be able to boost it if you tell him to.
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Blairio
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Post by Blairio » Mon Aug 12, 2019 4:15 pm

hemeroscopium wrote:Treat your room is the 1st step. Then you'll star hearing what you do. Proper monitors help too.

If you cant, get some spectra analysis software and check recordings. Look for sub base & base freq and compare with tracks you like.

If possible, do a pre gig sound check. Even if you didnt add enough thump, the venue sound guy might be able to boost it if you tell him to.
Treating the room is good advice, but perhaps an easier solution is to constantly A/B your composition with a reference recording pkayed back through your monitoring setup - a commercial recording with an overall frequency profile that mirrors your own composition.

Good luck.

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VM
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Post by VM » Mon Aug 12, 2019 5:42 pm

My first thought was how lucky you were to have an audience member providing live, accurate feedback on the frequency balance of the mix :yay:

Practicing in the studio is good for patching and composition, but before a show it's better to play a few mock sets in a rehearsal space that is more similar to the venue, with a full PA at stage volume. I run my modular into a 6-channel submixer next to the rack in case the FoH soundperson isn't picking up on what the mix needs.
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Yes Powder
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Post by Yes Powder » Mon Aug 12, 2019 6:42 pm

Regarding the mix, yeah it seems to be wanting of some low-end.
Right or not, it's still kind of a dick thing to yell out in the middle of a set— especially when in a situation where adding bass isn't necessarily as easy as twisting a knob like non-musicians often seem to think it is.

What whatever, that's people for ya.

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nios
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Post by nios » Mon Aug 12, 2019 7:59 pm

LIP and Shapeshifter are to me more of growly/crusty/rusty-sounding type bass to my ears, not that that's bad, it just isn't the "makes a thump in peoples' chests" type bass. They are both awesome modules but, ultimately, are digital. I love wavetables (got a Graphic VCO and a Microwave XT) but I don't tend to use them for pure bass duty.

You may want to mix in something that holds an extremely full low end, particularly a low sine for putting in that overpowering depth. Of which I don't know of anything better in Euro (or practically anything) than the ACL Variable Sync VCO's sine. Rubicon 2 is also close to the ACL in quality, and I've heard about the R*S / Serge NTO also being extremely powerful but haven't used one myself.

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Re: Modular ego damaged

Post by Navs » Tue Aug 13, 2019 1:27 am

Dennis wrote:... at home i have genelec 8020 with an ESI Sub10 active...
When you mixed the track 'reeb', did you feel it had enough bass? If so, then maybe your speaker setup is misleading you, e.g. the sub is telling you there is too much bass when in fact the sub speaker might be too much for your room. :hmm:

The small Genelecs can also be misleading. We played a Powwow streaming session using 8020s. I had a patch that relied on ducking sounds with a kickdrum. It sounded 'great' while I was playing it, but listening back to the recording later on my 8040s, the larger Genelecs, it was totally lacking in bass.

I second the advice given by others to compare mixes you like on your speaker system to get a feel for what is right to your ears.

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hemeroscopium
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Post by hemeroscopium » Tue Aug 13, 2019 5:10 am

ive had NTO & Schippman Omega Phi. Nothing subbases as Omega Phi and NTO goes very pleasantly low as well. I've had Loquelic and it does not come close to this two monsters in terms of low end. I tended to use Loq as bright metallic thing because it has super sharp/piercing character at high end.
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Post by SB-SIX » Tue Aug 13, 2019 7:08 am

The reference track feels like the whole thing is hipassed indeed. Good low end can come from digital or analog, as long as the waveform is like a sine. Heavily modulated stuff needs something sine-ish (a filtered square or saw also gradually becomes a sine if you close the filter enough) as an extra layer.
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Post by Blairio » Tue Aug 13, 2019 10:07 am

I have been to gigs in some venues where the bass / lower frequencies appear boosted in some parts of the room (such as under balconies), and attenuated in others. Last year I attended a gig in a local venue, which (unknown to me) a pal also attended. When we compared notes on the sound, the differences were striking - all down to where each of us was standing.

Whoever installed and tuned the system will no doubt have done their best to counteract this, but even with a lot of money thrown at the problem it will never fully go away.

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Post by Dennis » Tue Aug 13, 2019 11:36 am

thank you all for the thoughts :love:

you are right, the loquelic isn't THAT of a low end monster, i use it more to add some organic overtones to my bass....

but nonetheless my mix from the song ''reeb'' is pretty much straight out of the box.... i just added internal side chain on my Bassline (MSC WMD) and put a compressor /limiter over the whole mix in Ableton

i thought it sounded a lot more ''loud, polished and bassy'' then before

i will try that sub bass tho, read about that a lot, since im into creating Reese / neurofunk basslines
and maybe adding a filtered saw..... i will drop the news here

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Post by cornutt » Tue Aug 13, 2019 3:05 pm

For starters, try just layering in a sine wave from a VCO, at an octave lower than the rest of the patch. See if that gets you in the ballpark.
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Post by naturligfunktion » Wed Aug 14, 2019 7:37 am

The track could use a bit more bass, I think. Keep it simple, use a since wave, and try your track on different speakers. If your feeling was that the bass was enough when you made the track, then your monitors are lying to you. One way of getting around that is taking a lot of time listening to music you like and know sounding good, on your monitors to get a feel how both your speakers and your room is sounding.

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Post by tito_tunes » Thu Aug 15, 2019 6:11 pm

As others have said use a simple sine wave to beef up the low end of your bass. I remember seeing Kaitlyn Auralia Smith live and she had a very simple sine bass patch with a thumpy envelope on it and it was so effective at shaking the room. Since then I've always incorporated a sine bass into my show patching. It's nice to overdrive that if you want a bit more hairiness.
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Post by The Grump » Fri Aug 16, 2019 9:51 pm

Dennis wrote:
i dont EQ my bass, i just use a shakmat hipass for other sounds to clear them lower freqs up and just take bass duties from the actual bass rig.
EQ your sounds. If you are trying to create a mix, then you must tailor the parts, which is more than just hi-passing everthing else to make room. It's a good start, but it's not everything by a long shot. Most systems have a roll-off in the really low lows, and if you are trying to use a lot of energy there, you're just going to trip limiters. You should run a hi-pass at the very bottom of your low end, and while you do want some energy there, you don't need much if it's clean, and you have a decent EQ for your main buss. You can add a little there, but you also need to take the system you are playing on into account. There's no magic bullet, it's a process.

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Post by thresholdpeople » Sat Aug 17, 2019 7:00 am

I think it's important to consider this from a compositional perspective, not just a technical mixing one... Does your track have all the elements in there that you want?

I do find mixing a compositional technique, and things can be mixed differently to allow more or less of the elements to come through for sure, and yeah you can always add more elements, but intent is important. If you feel like nothing is missing until some person tries to burst your bubble, that's a different thing all together.

Playing live is hard, and sharing your personal stuff with others is hard. I think it's natural to be sensitive and feel like everyone else is right in whatever they say. But heckling during a performance is not constructive criticism whatsoever.

If you want more bass, yes there are ways you can add more bass. If you're good with what you've got then who cares? I think you can spin round and round trying to please everyone, and everyone will want something subtly (not not so) different.

And yes, I understand the need to take a personal critical stance on your music, and to listen to those people that you trust... they can offer perspective, but ultimately it's just perspective.


I find headphones are also a good way to gauge bass performance. Most go to very low frequencies. It may not be super accurate in terms of what happens in a room, but they will provide you an understanding of how much is there, mostly as pressure.

If you do want more bass, and you're out of modules to add it, the DBX 120 is pretty awesome. I find it kind of hard to get used to, but when you get a grasp on it, it can get nuts. There are various versions out now. An older version had more controls, which I found more appropriate, the newest version is a bit more fine tuned, but less tuneable.

Another thing may be worth while is renting a practice room with a PA already set up for an hour or two and running through some stuff. Not sure the venue you played, but the system may be comparable, or at the least you can get as loud. Volume has a large effect on perceived frequencies, and so does the space.

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Post by spilthyfred » Sat Aug 24, 2019 3:52 am

I find that having a bass line leaning toward the mids and then layering some sub bass underneath has helped me. And as others noted, sometimes you just need a kick that better fits the mix.

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