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WIGGLING 'LITE' IN GUEST MODE

Moon Modular 552 CV->MIDI tracking test
MUFF WIGGLER Forum Index -> 5U Format Modules Goto page 1, 2  Next [all]
Author Moon Modular 552 CV->MIDI tracking test
JohnLRice
analogsteve
Another entertaining and educational video from JLR. John, if you keep making them, I'll keep watching them. Great stuff.
Karl Jeffers
I see finantial chaos in my future. help

Great video.
emdot_ambient
Yeah, I was definitely getting my groove on just like those hep cats in the video...wait...gotta run, my manager wants to speak with me in her office...
help

Mr. Green
Awesome video!

Is this a new, corrected or improved CV to MIDI converter? I thought I'd heard of some people having issues with them.

Seriously need some Moon Modular Money!
Bryan B
Great video! It really makes the case for me wanting one of these.

Also, that sequencer is very cool.
scarymcclary
always awesome videos. very helpful applause
JohnLRice
Thanks for all the comments my peeps! Hug

I'm too tired to comment back right now but here is a quick experiment running pink noise into the 552 and running the MIDI out to a drum machine:

http://soundcloud.com/johnlrice/moon-modular-552-cv-to-midi-pink-noise -controlling-tr505-drums-machine
Nelson Baboon
What did you do differently in this test compared to your previous one? I recall you verifying that there was an issue with these...
davebr
JohnLRice wrote:
Thanks for all the comments my peeps! Hug

I'm too tired to comment back right now but here is a quick experiment running pink noise into the 552 and running the MIDI out to a drum machine:

http://soundcloud.com/johnlrice/moon-modular-552-cv-to-midi-pink-noise -controlling-tr505-drums-machine

Nice demo. I wasn't aware of this module until your video. I've done a fair amount of CV>MIDI with my ComputerVoltageSource module. I especially like controlling program changes via CV. I find that just having a LFO slowly control the instruments adds an interesting twist to the sound. Another thing I like is just a bit of portamento on the CV to create glissandos although I programmed that by monitoring the CV input and sending MIDI notes whenever there was a sufficient delta. I've got several mp3 sound files of CV>MIDI on my samples page. I've not tried pink noise. I'll have to do that.

Thanks for the video.
Dave
impaledfaith
JohnLRice wrote:
Thanks for all the comments my peeps! Hug

I'm too tired to comment back right now but here is a quick experiment running pink noise into the 552 and running the MIDI out to a drum machine:

http://soundcloud.com/johnlrice/moon-modular-552-cv-to-midi-pink-noise -controlling-tr505-drums-machine


this is exactly what i want to do with this module when i get it!!! applause

thank you so much for ALL of your demos, John! wonderful and informative!

we're not worthy
JohnLRice
Nelson Baboon wrote:
What did you do differently in this test compared to your previous one? I recall you verifying that there was an issue with these...

Hi,
Yes, I was thinking after I posted it that I should have over emphasized the need for a "clean" cv source! In this demo I was using the 5v out of the 569 which is quantized. When using the non-quantized 10v output I was able to reproduce the instAbility you discovered. The 552's inputs are very sensitive which could be a good thing depending on what you are doing.
JohnLRice
Double post, inept iPod usage
7thDanSound
This was another great video from you John, I was really impressed by it. I am glad you mentioned the sensitivity issue and possible need for a quantized though, feels like some important info.
JohnLRice
emdot_ambient wrote:
Is this a new, corrected or improved CV to MIDI converter? I thought I'd heard of some people having issues with them.


It's the same one I've had, serial # 2298. I got it used in mid April 2010 and the original owner bought it new a month or two before.

From my own personal tests I don't think there is anything defective or broken with the module, but it is extremely sensitive to voltage fluctuations by design. The non-quantized 10v output of my Moon 569 sequencer is way to unstable to reliably sequence a repeating melody and even the straight output of my Q960 has an occasional glitch which causes a note to "jump out of place" from time to time. (can't hear it on an analog VCO tracking the same voltage but I could see glitches in the voltage on an O'scope that coinsided with the note jumps.)
JohnLRice
davebr wrote:
JohnLRice wrote:
Thanks for all the comments my peeps! Hug

I'm too tired to comment back right now but here is a quick experiment running pink noise into the 552 and running the MIDI out to a drum machine:

http://soundcloud.com/johnlrice/moon-modular-552-cv-to-midi-pink-noise -controlling-tr505-drums-machine

Nice demo. I wasn't aware of this module until your video. I've done a fair amount of CV>MIDI with my ComputerVoltageSource module. I especially like controlling program changes via CV. I find that just having a LFO slowly control the instruments adds an interesting twist to the sound. Another thing I like is just a bit of portamento on the CV to create glissandos although I programmed that by monitoring the CV input and sending MIDI notes whenever there was a sufficient delta. I've got several mp3 sound files of CV>MIDI on my samples page. I've not tried pink noise. I'll have to do that.

Thanks for the video.
Dave


Thanks Dave! Your ComputerVoltageSource module is such an impressive and beautiful feat of 5U engineering everyone should check it out! we're not worthy
Nelson Baboon
to my unmechanical ears and mind, if the 569 and cv to midi simply cannot generate a steady midi pitch, then there is something wrong. This didn't happen only when the 569 was 'in between' pitches. It happened whenever the pitch wasn't in the extreme low or extreme high part of the range. So, this instability was effectively a whole half step (and even more in some cases. The one I got in a swap more recently would still routinely go out by a half step when used with the cv to midi)

I simply don't understand how this kind of lack of stability would be intentional.

JohnLRice wrote:
emdot_ambient wrote:
Is this a new, corrected or improved CV to MIDI converter? I thought I'd heard of some people having issues with them.


It's the same one I've had, serial # 2298. I got it used in mid April 2010 and the original owner bought it new a month or two before.

From my own personal tests I don't think there is anything defective or broken with the module, but it is extremely sensitive to voltage fluctuations by design. The non-quantized 10v output of my Moon 569 sequencer is way to unstable to reliably sequence a repeating melody and even the straight output of my Q960 has an occasional glitch which causes a note to "jump out of place" from time to time. (can't hear it on an analog VCO tracking the same voltage but I could see glitches in the voltage on an O'scope that coinsided with the note jumps.)
JohnLRice
Well, what I'm saying is that it is very sensitive and when fed unstable voltages, like the 10V out of the Moon 569 angry it will output inconsistant MIDI notes.

Now, if it was only intended to be a CV->MIDI for chromatic notes only, then it would be dumb to make it so sensitive. But since it needs to handle all sorts of MIDI events like pitchbend and modulations and breath control etc etc, it needs to be able to respond to subtle changes. (no one has told me this, it just seems to make sense to me . . . yes, continue listening to me talking out of my ass! Mr. Green )

hhhmmm . . .maybe the could modify it so that when it is in "Note On" mode, the sensitivity would be greatly reduced and then when in the other modes the sensitivity could be increased as needed??? hmmm.....

Anyway, this is all just what I've come to believe from messing around with it. One test I had done was to take a steady bias voltage out from my M525 attenuator into the 552 and clock it with an lfo. I listened to it for a really long time (well, like 5 minutes and THAT is a REALLY long time to listen to a single repeating note! MY ASS IS BLEEDING ) and the pitch always stayed the same.


Nelson Baboon wrote:
to my unmechanical ears and mind, if the 569 and cv to midi simply cannot generate a steady midi pitch, then there is something wrong. This didn't happen only when the 569 was 'in between' pitches. It happened whenever the pitch wasn't in the extreme low or extreme high part of the range. So, this instability was effectively a whole half step (and even more in some cases. The one I got in a swap more recently would still routinely go out by a half step when used with the cv to midi)

I simply don't understand how this kind of lack of stability would be intentional.

JohnLRice wrote:
emdot_ambient wrote:
Is this a new, corrected or improved CV to MIDI converter? I thought I'd heard of some people having issues with them.


It's the same one I've had, serial # 2298. I got it used in mid April 2010 and the original owner bought it new a month or two before.

From my own personal tests I don't think there is anything defective or broken with the module, but it is extremely sensitive to voltage fluctuations by design. The non-quantized 10v output of my Moon 569 sequencer is way to unstable to reliably sequence a repeating melody and even the straight output of my Q960 has an occasional glitch which causes a note to "jump out of place" from time to time. (can't hear it on an analog VCO tracking the same voltage but I could see glitches in the voltage on an O'scope that coinsided with the note jumps.)
Nelson Baboon
I simply don't understand how the math and language can possibly lead to the result that no matter where the voltage lies (unless it is at the extremes high or low) that it is acceptable stability to have the resultant midi pitch waver a semitone - or even more - when fed a steady voltage. I don't understand even how setting it to be unstable - in other words anything less than this exact frequency will be this semitone, and anything above it will be the next one - leads to undesirable results. I simply don't understand it.

JohnLRice wrote:
Well, what I'm saying is that it is very sensitive and when fed unstable voltages, like the 10V out of the Moon 569 angry it will output inconsistant MIDI notes.

Now, if it was only intended to be a CV->MIDI for chromatic notes only, then it would be dumb to make it so sensitive. But since it needs to handle all sorts of MIDI events like pitchbend and modulations and breath control etc etc, it needs to be able to respond to subtle changes. (no one has told me this, it just seems to make sense to me . . . yes, continue listening to me talking out of my ass! Mr. Green )

hhhmmm . . .maybe the could modify it so that when it is in "Note On" mode, the sensitivity would be greatly reduced and then when in the other modes the sensitivity could be increased as needed??? hmmm.....

Anyway, this is all just what I've come to believe from messing around with it. One test I had done was to take a steady bias voltage out from my M525 attenuator into the 552 and clock it with an lfo. I listened to it for a really long time (well, like 5 minutes and THAT is a REALLY long time to listen to a single repeating note! MY ASS IS BLEEDING ) and the pitch always stayed the same.


Nelson Baboon wrote:
to my unmechanical ears and mind, if the 569 and cv to midi simply cannot generate a steady midi pitch, then there is something wrong. This didn't happen only when the 569 was 'in between' pitches. It happened whenever the pitch wasn't in the extreme low or extreme high part of the range. So, this instability was effectively a whole half step (and even more in some cases. The one I got in a swap more recently would still routinely go out by a half step when used with the cv to midi)

I simply don't understand how this kind of lack of stability would be intentional.

JohnLRice wrote:
emdot_ambient wrote:
Is this a new, corrected or improved CV to MIDI converter? I thought I'd heard of some people having issues with them.


It's the same one I've had, serial # 2298. I got it used in mid April 2010 and the original owner bought it new a month or two before.

From my own personal tests I don't think there is anything defective or broken with the module, but it is extremely sensitive to voltage fluctuations by design. The non-quantized 10v output of my Moon 569 sequencer is way to unstable to reliably sequence a repeating melody and even the straight output of my Q960 has an occasional glitch which causes a note to "jump out of place" from time to time. (can't hear it on an analog VCO tracking the same voltage but I could see glitches in the voltage on an O'scope that coinsided with the note jumps.)
JohnLRice
Well, I probably don't understand what is happening well enough to explain it clearly but I feel I've at least proved it to myself (so far hihi ) that when the voltage "looks" stable on the oscilliscope, the MIDI notes do not waver, and when the voltage "looks" unstable on the oscilliscope, sometimes the MIDI notes do waver. So, I'm thinking that the 552 is a sensitive, particular and unforgiving module and may not "appear" as stable as some other brand, but that other brand might be ignoring subtlties one might want to use for a particular MIDI event.

. . . maybe I need to make a comprehensive video demo? hihi


Nelson Baboon wrote:
I simply don't understand how the math and language can possibly lead to the result that no matter where the voltage lies (unless it is at the extremes high or low) that it is acceptable stability to have the resultant midi pitch waver a semitone - or even more - when fed a steady voltage. I don't understand even how setting it to be unstable - in other words anything less than this exact frequency will be this semitone, and anything above it will be the next one - leads to undesirable results. I simply don't understand it.

JohnLRice wrote:
Well, what I'm saying is that it is very sensitive and when fed unstable voltages, like the 10V out of the Moon 569 angry it will output inconsistant MIDI notes.

Now, if it was only intended to be a CV->MIDI for chromatic notes only, then it would be dumb to make it so sensitive. But since it needs to handle all sorts of MIDI events like pitchbend and modulations and breath control etc etc, it needs to be able to respond to subtle changes. (no one has told me this, it just seems to make sense to me . . . yes, continue listening to me talking out of my ass! Mr. Green )

hhhmmm . . .maybe the could modify it so that when it is in "Note On" mode, the sensitivity would be greatly reduced and then when in the other modes the sensitivity could be increased as needed??? hmmm.....

Anyway, this is all just what I've come to believe from messing around with it. One test I had done was to take a steady bias voltage out from my M525 attenuator into the 552 and clock it with an lfo. I listened to it for a really long time (well, like 5 minutes and THAT is a REALLY long time to listen to a single repeating note! MY ASS IS BLEEDING ) and the pitch always stayed the same.


Nelson Baboon wrote:
to my unmechanical ears and mind, if the 569 and cv to midi simply cannot generate a steady midi pitch, then there is something wrong. This didn't happen only when the 569 was 'in between' pitches. It happened whenever the pitch wasn't in the extreme low or extreme high part of the range. So, this instability was effectively a whole half step (and even more in some cases. The one I got in a swap more recently would still routinely go out by a half step when used with the cv to midi)

I simply don't understand how this kind of lack of stability would be intentional.

JohnLRice wrote:
emdot_ambient wrote:
Is this a new, corrected or improved CV to MIDI converter? I thought I'd heard of some people having issues with them.


It's the same one I've had, serial # 2298. I got it used in mid April 2010 and the original owner bought it new a month or two before.

From my own personal tests I don't think there is anything defective or broken with the module, but it is extremely sensitive to voltage fluctuations by design. The non-quantized 10v output of my Moon 569 sequencer is way to unstable to reliably sequence a repeating melody and even the straight output of my Q960 has an occasional glitch which causes a note to "jump out of place" from time to time. (can't hear it on an analog VCO tracking the same voltage but I could see glitches in the voltage on an O'scope that coinsided with the note jumps.)
davebr
Nelson Baboon wrote:
I simply don't understand how the math and language can possibly lead to the result that no matter where the voltage lies (unless it is at the extremes high or low) that it is acceptable stability to have the resultant midi pitch waver a semitone - or even more - when fed a steady voltage. I don't understand even how setting it to be unstable - in other words anything less than this exact frequency will be this semitone, and anything above it will be the next one - leads to undesirable results. I simply don't understand it.


It depends on how they are sampling the voltage for the conversion to MIDI. The natural tendency is to sample and convert to the note. In fact you want to quantize 1/2 semitone below to 1/2 semitone above. That way you have +/- 42 mV of guard band before you step either up or down to the next semitone. If you quantize on the note, then -1 mV will step you down. Just a guess, mind you, but I have seen this before. At least that's how I do in on my CVS programs.

Dave
AnalogBastard
Thanks for sharing this, it is definately appreciated !
essex sound lab
First...thanks to John for the video. This kind of clear example makes it much easier to see and hear how a module behaves...and the endings of your videos are such nice desserts following the "lesson". Nice use of stereo BTW. thumbs up

That said, having watched the video I'm confused by the follow-up discussion and what it says about the 552's behavior. It seemed to me that the triangle and sine waves produced the expected results. So, some (hopefully clarifying) questions:

1. Were the triangle and sine quantized, too, before sending them to the 552?

2. Are there voltages for which the generated MIDI note is higher or lower than expected? If so, is it dependent upon the delta between the sampled voltage and the preceding sampled voltage and/or the slope between the two?

3. Are there constant voltages for which the 552 will emit inconsistent MIDI notes?

Sorry if this should be obvious, but I had a hard time sussing it out from the discussion.
JohnLRice
essex sound lab wrote:
having watched the video I'm confused by the follow-up discussion and what it says about the 552's behavior. It seemed to me that the triangle and sine waves produced the expected results. So, some (hopefully clarifying) questions:

1. Were the triangle and sine quantized, too, before sending them to the 552?

2. Are there voltages for which the generated MIDI note is higher or lower than expected? If so, is it dependent upon the delta between the sampled voltage and the preceding sampled voltage and/or the slope between the two?

3. Are there constant voltages for which the 552 will emit inconsistent MIDI notes?


Thank you for your kind words! I'm glad you liked the video! 8_)

1. No, the LFO CV was not quantized. I did pass the LFOs and noise etc through a Q125 processor to shift the offset up because the 552 inputs aren't bipolar (I think) It's "possible" that the Q125 might have "tainted" the results but I doubt it.

2. No, at least not that I could tell in this demo. The only useful part of the demo for showing accurate tracking is at the beginning when I have both the MIDI piano and the analog VCO playing at the same time. With the noise and LFO's, of course it's a random thing so it "could" be pumping out "wrong" MIDI notes occasionally and we'd never be able to tell.

3. Not that I've experienced when the CV is solid. Read through the following thread where Nelson B, myself and others were originally discussing this issue a few months ago. The main problem using the 552 for both Nelson B. and I was when we were using the 569 in 10v mode. I have some scope screenshots in that thread showing how messed up the 10V output is (the 2V and 5V modes on the 569 are internally quantized, the 10V is not). Nelson B. said he noticed the problem with his Inseqt sequencer and I managed to occasionaly produce the problem with my Q960 but it was no where near as bad as with the 10V on the 569.
https://www.muffwiggler.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=19975
essex sound lab
Thanks John. That's helpful.

Seems like the thing works rather well, then, aside from some issues when the CV isn't all that stable...which seems hard to fault it for, and easy enough to work around.
JohnLRice
uuuhhhmmmm . . . . I'm too tired to confirm but . . . . .maybe in a couple days I'll have more to say on this . . .
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