Muff's Modules & More

Madrayken · Last edited by Madrayken on Wed Jan 12, 2011 6:59 am; edited 1 time in total

So, I was thinking about what synthesis types I'm able to do with my little 6U (subtractive, additive, FM, digital, bandpass tuned noise). Like many others, I came to the conclusion that granular would be a really nice addition. I started thinking about the number of grains I'd require, and what controls I'd want.

Then I stopped.

I realised that in the software world, granular synthesis is primarily used to process complex audio input rather than classically 'pure' synthesis; e.g. making drones out of unlikely sources such as speech or guitar riffs.

At this point, I rather lost interest. I don't tend to use my 6U as an audio processor, but as a hardware version of the Sophia VST from Audiobulb. I like all my sounds to originate in my little box, and end there, too (as far as I can manage it).

So - if you knew that a granular processor was coming out - either as a DSP proggy for the Z-DSP, or as a new module - what would *you* do with it? Would you all use it for processing external inputs (and thus require an audio-line-in + preamp)?

blz · Posted: Wed Jan 12, 2011 6:38 am Post subject:

id use it to mess with the following

wave table oscs
flame speaking synth
use it my not yet bought module vocoder

and i havent yet thought of the rest but i feel it would be a welcome friend and seeing as itll have a scan disk built in that shall be helpful

ping panic · Posted: Wed Jan 12, 2011 6:42 am Post subject:

I'd really like a granular synth module to exist.
Something like de ADDAC but more complex.

Maybe you haven't tried granite (the vst) but with a few controls you can make weird drones.
About the external audio line in there is a cheap doepfer module which works as an envelope follower too.

nrdvrgr · Posted: Wed Jan 12, 2011 7:08 am Post subject:

Scott/Harvestman has been working on a granular module for quite sometime... should be interesting. I hope he gets it out during 2011.

Carci · Posted: Wed Jan 12, 2011 7:34 am Post subject:

I'm waiting for The Harvestman take on granular synthesis, I'm pretty sure it's going to be great.

What would I do with a granular module ?
Audio processing indeed, granular delays and stuff...
No pre amp needed, there are dedicated modules for that.

The whole point of making it modular, to me, is the CV control over the different parameters, having envelopes controling grain length, LFO randomness, audio rate modulations, granularization of CVs... This can be so powerful...

stk · Posted: Wed Jan 12, 2011 7:42 am Post subject:

Yes

Ideally, I'd love a sampling granular synth, basically a 16bit Tyme Sefari running through a moderately powerful granular processor. Oh, and with an SD card reader.

I'm really hoping the Harvestman grainer, when it does surface, has smooth antialiasing/shaping, for that amorphous grain cloud thing.

For me (being largely uninterested in "vintage analogue"-type sounds, modular granular is kind of a holy grail.

Monobass · Posted: Wed Jan 12, 2011 9:15 am Post subject:

I'm much more interested in granular processing rather than pure synthesis.

Red Electric Rainbow · Posted: Wed Jan 12, 2011 9:48 am Post subject:

studiokpg · Posted: Wed Jan 12, 2011 9:52 am Post subject:

Check this out:
http://code.google.com/p/tinkerit/wiki/Auduino
Auduino is an Arduino based granular "noise maker". The code is pretty simple, and with a little creativity, one should be able to put it under voltage control.

felixer · Posted: Wed Jan 12, 2011 10:37 am Post subject:

well, it's always a processor/modifier, innit? you need some inputsignal to 'granulate' or chop into small pieces. you change/process those and then you re-order them .... but for your perception it makes a lot of difference how large these chunks are. anything on a wavelenght timescale is perceived as timbre/sound. you notice it as a 'roughing up' of your inputsignal. imagine a sine chopped into a dozen or so pieces and re-assembled .... you can get some aspect of that by modulating your wave with noise.
if the chunks get larger it becomes softer in tone (provided you eleminate any clicks on the seams) and you get phasing/reverb type effects. with larger chunks (in the seconds range) the effect becomes structural: complete notes may be moved around and your melody/rhythm will come out as if played differently. this is also called 'shuffling'
so there are 3 ranges which require different amounts of memory. the zdsp has very little memory onboard so you'll be limited to the first 2 effects .... and only on a very 'local scale': the chunks you can reorder are all taken in a short time. not much variation is possible. i don't think this will produce too interesting results. these processes work well if you can take your chunks from a large 'sample' of the input. maybe even your whole piece: several minutes range ....
the shuffling effect could be quite easily done in pretty much any modern digital delay. it's just that yer avarage musician doesn't like it so the maimstream companies are not interested in programming it. i made my own process using several delays and fading/cross-feedbacking between/among them. digitech timebender is helpfull here ...

soooo long story short: what i want is long memory and clever programming hihi

all the knowledge/technology is there. it's not a warpdrive .... but as always any manufacturer would need to shift at least a few hunderd units to cover the development costs .... no-one took the plunge yet ....

Monobass · Posted: Wed Jan 12, 2011 12:08 pm Post subject:

Drumdrumdrumdrum · Posted: Wed Feb 15, 2012 7:23 am Post subject:

boramx · Posted: Wed Feb 15, 2012 7:47 am Post subject:

i use my voice and electro-acoustic piezo type instruments a lot with phonogene. a granular thingy would be nice.

i'm beginning now to get good results using the a192 to control the M4L Granulator.

the a192 and midi programming is a pain, but my point is having the Granulator dance with events in my synth is quite more interesting to me then simply sitting at M4L.

iL · Posted: Wed Feb 15, 2012 8:39 am Post subject:

granular synthesis. this makes me think back the days when i used the hyperprism sound utility on mac.

and producing kind of granular things with sample offset in soundtracker

modern granular synthesis lacks sometimes of bad algorthm.

but i dont know really for what to use granular synthesis in a euro, yes maybe for soundprocessing! like play my tapedeck or radio over the euro modulation and get some alien ambient while doing house cleanup.

phase ghost · Posted: Wed Feb 15, 2012 9:04 am Post subject:

I'd say largely pointless. However, cv into the computer (via Silent Way) to control parameters of a granular synth plugin would be cool.

Drumdrumdrumdrum · Posted: Wed Feb 15, 2012 9:07 am Post subject:

pixelmechanic · Posted: Wed Feb 15, 2012 9:26 am Post subject:

uncooked · Posted: Wed Feb 15, 2012 9:32 am Post subject:

I would use a eurorack granular processor if it offered plenty of cv control parameters. I don't use a laptop live so that would be a way of bringing granular synthesis/processing on stage for me.

dropthedyle · Posted: Wed Feb 15, 2012 9:33 am Post subject:

Fragments Generator from Pittsburg:

http://pittsburghmodular.com/fragments-generator/

demorgan · Posted: Wed Feb 15, 2012 10:51 am Post subject:

When is Fragments coming out? Soon I hope.

theglyph · Posted: Wed Feb 15, 2012 11:01 am Post subject:

Phonogene?

Veqtor · Posted: Wed Feb 15, 2012 2:05 pm Post subject:

I love grain delays, also having some cv control over jitter also, pitch envelopes of the grains is really nice, would love connecting it up to pp+brains with the pp modulations controlling different resynthesis parameters and also a rené to control a 1/voct pitch transpose input.

And about the "there's no point in having one because you can do it on a computer"... Sell your modular. You can do all of it on a computer.

But seriously... I think it's what won't come to mind until I work with a modular granular processor for a while that'll be really interesting.

suboptimal · Posted: Wed Feb 15, 2012 3:06 pm Post subject:

pixelmechanic · Posted: Wed Feb 15, 2012 3:08 pm Post subject:

Monobass · Posted: Wed Feb 15, 2012 3:26 pm Post subject:

I hope the mobile device version of PD will be offered on the Raspberry Pi.... that could open up a very modular friendly world of high quality/voice computer granulation.

Veqtor · Posted: Wed Feb 15, 2012 4:49 pm Post subject:

I'm quite fond of the idea of having an actual modular. I could never replace it with a computer. Perhaps it is that I work with computers all the time and want to get away from them when I create. There's something about a computer screen that kind of makes it not-leisure anymore for me. I went from reaktor to REAL modulars so... I'm never going back. w00t

Monobass · Posted: Wed Feb 15, 2012 4:54 pm Post subject:

yeah me too.. although If I could easily encapsulate a PD or Max patch into a standalone module that would be awesome...

Drumdrumdrumdrum · Posted: Wed Feb 15, 2012 11:39 pm Post subject:

Andrino and Max?

I'm still a bit naive about all these open source programs. It all seems a bit too geeky for me. I'm researching the whole idea but it seems like a bottomless pit of research. How far does one go before they can use it for compositions?

Granular effects just take me to outer space. I have to have it in my music, there is no doubt.

Soy Sos · Posted: Thu Feb 16, 2012 12:00 am Post subject:

The Fragment Generator is not really granular in the way people are discussing, as in chopping up bits of digital audio. I just got a Tyme Sefari a couple of days ago and am having a lot of fun with it. I know it's not granular either, but it is letting me crudely shuffle and scan through small 8 bit audio samples. The Max 4 Live instrument Granulator is the shit, I doubt we'll see anything that huge in a module any time soon. I'd love something between those 2 extremes at some point for sure!

DGTom (the designer) describes the Fragment Generator:

I could call it a VC Electro Boogie Tom Fill module. . . but I don't think that will help much

its not digital but it can sound very digital.

it isn't a filter, tho it _contains filters_

it's more indebted to the Polyrhythmophone than the 258, but, has more in comman with the TR 808 than either of those.

it is, indeed, a PITA to explain without getting bogged down in technicals, but I'll do my best.

Its a 'voice module' that has VC over Frequency, Amplitude & Timbre built around 3 high Q (ringing) filters which we've called "fragments"

How often, how loudly, at which frequency & at which relative position each fragment 'rings' makes up the sound at any given moment in time.

It can sound like a 500bpm electro breakbeat, like the secret attic offspring of granulab & a CZ-101, make throaty, resonant filter sweepy sounds & insane subsonic, almost DC 'is this shit even on' speaker wobbling waveforms.

its my attempt at Marvel Comics "WHAT IF. . . Granular Synthesis Was Analogue!!?!?!" & is best used while wearing a cape with your undies on the outside of your pants for that very reason!

Monobass · Posted: Thu Feb 16, 2012 2:55 am Post subject:

tomerbe · Posted: Thu Feb 16, 2012 11:14 am Post subject:

if i have time i'll put together some sort of granular patch this weekend. though i'll be "cheating" as i'll be using my es3 & PD to provide the grain envelopes and CVs with random deviation. i only have enough modules to do 2 or 3 grains at once (3vcas, 3 vcos), but enough to be somewhat interesting....

amalthea · Posted: Fri Feb 17, 2012 2:49 am Post subject:

Drumdrumdrumdrum · Posted: Fri Feb 17, 2012 9:47 am Post subject:

Why have I not heard about Alchemy before now? That is one slick VST! Im particularly interested in using this for resynthesis. They seem like a fun bunch of geek programers too.

thaneco · Posted: Fri Feb 17, 2012 10:16 am Post subject:

Reaktor is an amazing program with endless possibilities. Using both modular and reaktor is the best way for me (like for example passing the audio out from my modular to reaktor's granular effects). But I have to agree that watching a computer screen is a little tiresome lolspew

Drumdrumdrumdrum · Posted: Fri Feb 17, 2012 10:53 am Post subject:

Not to dis Reactor, but it always sounds like Reactor....if you know what I mean? Im starting to feel the same about Omnisphere too. Can pick it from a mile away on a movie soundtrack or nature doco.

I agree that a balance between VSTs and modular is the key. But balancing can be very tricky.

If some of these companies like Livid could get some real hands on interfacing between modular and VST then................

MY ASS IS BLEEDING

Dr. Sketch-n-Etch · Posted: Fri Feb 17, 2012 5:44 pm Post subject:

So, I'm a bit of a noob with this granular stuff. Is it basically just switching little snippets of sound in and out really quickly? For example, say that you've got two sources of audio (say, Bach's "Mass in B Minor" on Channel 1 and the Sex Pistols' "God Save the Queen" on Channel 2) going into a crossfader (like, say, the Intellijel uFade -- TM 2011, All Rights Reserved) which is being controlled by a pulse wave at 1 to 100 Hz. Now, let's say you modulate the pulse width and frequency of the pulse wave. Would this essentially be granular synthesis?

tomerbe · Posted: Fri Feb 17, 2012 5:56 pm Post subject:

you are somewhat there.

granular synthesisis a pretty open idea, but usually implies randomization of parameters for each grain, possibility of randomization of grain size and start time. and a variability of grain density, so that you might have 0 to say 32 grains (no real top limit) playing at the same time.

check barry truax's riverrun for an early example

here's a simple granular csound sampling piece i did a while back

[s]http://soundcloud.com/tomerbe/i-can-hear-my-heart-singing[/s]

Mark Landman · Posted: Fri Feb 17, 2012 5:59 pm Post subject:

Johnisfaster · Posted: Fri Feb 17, 2012 11:16 pm Post subject:

How could it possibly be pointless? I put modular samples into software granular apps all the time and it sounds bitchin. To be able to do it on the modular with CV control would be amazing.

A simple sine sample can get really crazy, it doesnt have to be a complex audio source to get really complex results.

amalthea · Posted: Sat Feb 18, 2012 1:18 am Post subject:

mrcharles · Posted: Sat Feb 18, 2012 1:52 am Post subject:

I've been exploring granular synthesis software for almost a year now... in addition to the Reaktor ensembles, here are a couple of applications that I recommend.

In particular, Density ( http://www.densitygs.com/ ). This comes as a standalone application or in Max4Live versions. It is a very powerful application that can morph between different "snapshots" of grain parameters, has built in reverb, compression, and a multi-band filter equalizer.

Audiomulch ( http://www.audiomulch.com/ ) has a number of granular synthesis tools in its library of contraptions.

I'm new to the modular world (trying to figure out just what my first configuration will be...), but I wonder just how analog a modular granular synth could be... it would have to handle an awful lot of data.

When you combine granular audio and video... well, it is out of this world... see:

tomerbe · Posted: Sat Mar 03, 2012 10:35 pm Post subject:

here's my attempt to do granular synth on my modular - this is fairly minimal, just two vcos through two vcas. think i'll try to expand on this....

grain envelopes and pitches are generated by PD and sent through the ES-3

https://vimeo.com/37874001

ianross · Posted: Sat Mar 03, 2012 10:49 pm Post subject:

Dr. Sketch-n-Etch · Posted: Sun Mar 04, 2012 1:10 am Post subject:

radiodread87 · Posted: Sun Mar 04, 2012 3:55 am Post subject:

could you also do this with the Ufade? as in have two sound sources play into it and switch between them at audio rates?

earlykooka · Posted: Sun Mar 04, 2012 9:00 am Post subject:

rowman · Posted: Sun Mar 04, 2012 10:27 am Post subject:

Dr. Sketch-n-Etch · Posted: Sun Mar 04, 2012 12:19 pm Post subject:

Dr. Sketch-n-Etch · Posted: Sun Mar 04, 2012 12:25 pm Post subject:

Dr. Sketch-n-Etch · Posted: Sun Mar 04, 2012 12:39 pm Post subject:

Kodama · Posted: Sun Mar 04, 2012 4:08 pm Post subject:

A112 freeze delay can be fun!

earlykooka · Posted: Sun Mar 04, 2012 5:45 pm Post subject:

parasitk · Posted: Sun Mar 04, 2012 5:51 pm Post subject:

rowman · Posted: Thu Mar 08, 2012 4:43 am Post subject:

yghartsyrt · Posted: Thu Mar 08, 2012 7:23 am Post subject:

two phonogene and a fast crossfade should get you into deep granular territory. For that price you could easily get a CV to midi interface and reaktor or max/MSP