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WIGGLING 'LITE' IN GUEST MODE

weird problem with b/s/t forum
MUFF WIGGLER Forum Index -> Announcements - Please read! Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next [all]
Author weird problem with b/s/t forum
PhineasFreak
fwiw, i'm wondering if the DDOS was complete coincidence - seems to be all hell broken loose over at DI.fm and some other music forums...

edit: oh, yeah forgot to say - i joined this forum to learn about modular synths. i like the sense of humour and community that is associated with this place, and that has encouraged me to actually read/post/share rather than just lurk with the intention of leeching info and getting a bargain.

i look forward to the day when i find there's a need for knowledge i have and hence can give something back...
Joe.
I think acting like someone can be trusted simply because of a post count, is highly optimistic at best. Personally I’d call it something completely different, and a lot more insulting.

I honestly don’t care if the B/S/T Section is locked, it should be replaced with something simple like a link to eBay auctions, where you actually have protection, and aren’t relying on the other person being a knight who will commit seppuku if their honor is lost (which is what it seems like the people expect here)

Before the whiners complain about eBay/Paypal fees I’ll mention a term called “Buyer/Seller protection”, something that Muffwigglers does not, and will never offer, as a free forum service.
mono-poly
darenager wrote:
Maybe remove the 50 post BST limit and let wigglers decide if they want to take a chance? Personally I'd be reluctant to buy from someone with a low post count - at least if I did not know of them from other forums/lists.

The internet - what a load of fuckery lol


I like the post limit.
This is the wiggler comunity and people should contribute to it.
And that's not just by selling your stuff here!
nrdvrgr
I have never learned this much ANYWHERE on the internetz, I have never met this much nice people in one place, I have never been to ANY "meets" like the Wiggler ones we set up here in Sweden, I have managed to release music and collaborate with fellow Wigglers through this forum... etc etc etc...

To summarize: I have become a better musician (?) by joining this place. I hope I have managed to rub off some of what I have learned on the noobs.
And since I hate Facebook and that shit I have made this my "social network" instead.

Carry on.
Luka
i think the post count rule makes it a bit harder for people to target out community - the post count rule makes any scam a little less anonymous

is 50 posts that hard to do?
Ekofisk
I am not pretending to know what goes on in Muff's mind, but as I understand it, the 50-post rule isn't saying that people with a lot of posts can be trusted. As always, common sense applies. But having some sort of qualification like the 50 post-thing goes a long way in losing some of the obvious scammers who only sign up to take peoples money. When needing 50 posts to do so, the threshold might become just high enough to avoid at least a few dodgy people.

If in doubt regarding a member's credibility, checking out his/her posts can give a fairly decent indication of whether this member can be trusted. Having 50 of those posts instead of 1 makes this task easier.

This is a small price to pay to make the b/s/t a bit safer, imo.
Ekofisk
Luka wrote:
i think the post count rule makes it a bit harder for people to target out community - the post count rule makes any scam a little less anonymous

is 50 posts that hard to do?


Exactly.
MrBiggs
I nearly fell down when I read that there are 3000 Muff Wiggler attendees. 3000!?!?
If I had to, and I don't, I think I could off the top of my head think of 50 names, and then going through the forum could add 50 or 75 more. Who the hell are these people that register and then don't participate? I read some forums without participating (Telecaster stuff, mountain bike stuff), but I don't register and I certainly don't expect to be able to access the registered user only perks like a marketplace or advanced search without participating.

I also don't see where donating to Muffs is supposed to allow access to BST. You donate to Muffs to help keep it going. You post and participate to gain access to BST. That's pretty clear and pretty simple.

Muffs is a forum where I learn stuff. I contribute stuff. I talk about users and posts to my fiancée, I try to learn cool tricks and make great patches so that I can share them here. I research stuff with my modular (and other gear) so that I can answer questions I read from someone who also wants to learn and participate. And, as a perk, there's a great marketplace here where I can throw my money at stuff. The idea of complaining that you're not "allowed" or the bitchiness shown in the early part of this thread is bizarre. There is no connection or relevance to the Citizen Mori thing and the 50 post count. As others have stated, a lot of people have apparently joined Muffs in the past to do nothing but buy/sell and rip off. The roadblock to solve that might affect you, but tough shit. Get out of the chair and participate. Help out with euro jack questions. Compare some envelopes. Make a Max patch and share it. Take a picture of your rack and guitar. Fight with Nelson Baboon. Piss off Metasonix. Be a part of this. Thats the point of Muffs.

Fifty posts is piddlyshit. If you love this stuff and this place fifty posts is what you hit in a week, and you drive an hour to have beer with members so you can talk in person about expanders for e350s and the uses of a Z8000.

If you're not interested in any of that, eBay and Craigslist are your friends. Have fun.
hednoize
MrBiggs wrote:

Fifty posts is piddlyshit. If you love this stuff and this place fifty posts is what you hit in a week, and you drive an hour to have beer with members so you can talk in person about expanders for e350s and the uses of a Z8000.

If you're not interested in any of that, eBay and Craigslist are your friends. Have fun.


I'm not sure there's been a significant call to eliminate the 50 posts rule.

There were several early posters to this thread (during the temporary B/S/T lockout) that were over 50 posts who suddenly no longer had access to it yesterday, despite the fact that they had items for sale and/or purchases pending, myself included. I think the anxiety for some came from the lack of information as to how they might be able to ever have access the B/S/T with the new code Muff had implemented, even though we had met the 50 post minimum, and, at least in my case, indeed contributed to Muffs in the various subforums (and that includes more substantial posts than just 50 replies of "cool" or nanners).

But whatever solution he comes up with is cool with me. It is after all, his creation and blood and sweat, and I am just it its beneficiary. I do think the B/S/T is a beautiful addition to the forum as a whole, and it has helped me engage with other users and put together some of my modular rig, and for that I am grateful and do not overlook the privilege that it is.

Speaking of community engagement, I've read many of your posts throughout the forum as both a lurker (pre-registration) and now active member (though not as prolific as yourself). One thread in particular that I read through last week regarding VCAs (which I believe you started) was very instructive. Thank you for that. thumbs up
bwhittington
hednoize wrote:
I think the anxiety for some came from the lack of information as to how they might be able to ever have access the B/S/T with the new code Muff had implemented,


I agree that the lack of information on the new policy was pretty much a total fail. I think the early posters to this thread had some very valid points. Some hysteria, too. zombie

Cheers,
Brian
michenal
hednoize wrote:


I'm not sure there's been a significant call to eliminate the 50 posts rule.


Exactly. This rule has been in place for some time now, and the early posters did not challenge it.

Restricting access to the B/S/T forum (i.e. forbidding people with less than 50 "relevant" posts to even READ the bst forum) was what was hotly debated.. Plus of course the fact that there had been no announcement whatsoever made people shout out loud..

I (may) understand the need to protect buyers from unknown wigglers, even though one should always be cautious and use Paypal with credit cards when purchasing over the faceless internet etc.., but restricting access to potential buyers or even lurkers was what made people tick.

At any rate Muff is the one in charge, so ultimately it is up to him..

BTW, thanks again for your efforts Muff!
MrBiggs
michenal wrote:
hednoize wrote:


I'm not sure there's been a significant call to eliminate the 50 posts rule.


Exactly. This rule has been in place for some time now, and the early posters did not challenge it.


Point taken. I understand the complaints. My ire here is misplaced maybe, but generally when little oinkers complain that they wanna sell/buy dammit and why can't they, it just bums me out.

hednoize wrote:
Speaking of community engagement, I've read many of your posts throughout the forum as both a lurker (pre-registration) and now active member (though not as prolific as yourself). One thread in particular that I read through last week regarding VCAs (which I believe you started) was very instructive. Thank you for that.


If it's me whom you're addressing and it's this thread you're mentioning, then good. Glad it helped someone other than me. I still stare at my Azimuth, Malekko VCA, and A132-3 with questions marks over my head half the time. Alas, that's why I like me Muff Wiggler dot com.
Animal!
Low-Gain
wow i completely missed this thread.


I've been an admin on 2 forums that i've helped start and grow.
One now being 25k members and the other i think a couple thousand members. I totally understand your frustrations! It's not an easy job(specially since it doesn't pay!!!). Which is why i've stepped down from both due to my stress levels getting too high because of it. MuffWig.. you're a SUPER fucking AWESOME guy! And i can't thank you enough for doing everything you've done for this community! SlayerBadger! SlayerBadger! nanners nanners love love So that being said.. I'm cool with what ever you end up deciding to do.


regarding the BST forum... The way i've handled those in the past is
pretty simple..

"This forum and it's administrators are not liable for any crimes committed through using the Buy/Sell/Trade forum. BUY/SELL/TRADE AT YOUR OWN RISK! Only Members w/ 50 or more posts may view/use this forum"

Seems pretty straight forward and simple. We all know the risks of b/s/t on the internet. I think members should be able to show some responsibility and understand that you (muffwiggler) or any admin/moderator are not responsible or liable for any crimes committed through the b/s/t/ section. It really shouldn't be something that needs to be moderated in that sense. Short of members that have been known to be ripping peolple off should be banned.

We all buy/sell/trade at our own risk and understand that in the event of something like this happening.. the forum/messageboard can not be held responsible/liable.

Ok.. now I'm repeating myself..

regardless of what you end up doing, i hope you can wipe your hands clean of it and not have to stress about it. Thanks again for doing such an amazing job MuffWig! U DA MAN!!!
SlayerBadger! SlayerBadger! SlayerBadger!


should u do away w/ the bst section.. i will be sad as it has saved me so much cash by not having to sell on eBay wink That alone is worth me donating some money every few months! So keep that damn donate button!!! At the same time.. doing away w/ that forum would probably put an extra $$$$ back into my pocket due to my shopping spree's that i do on a weekly basis. lol lol

lol
fracinfrucer
Muff should not have to stress over this shit. I don't have the highest post count and have an active post in BST (ok, "active" might be stretching it hihi ). But if it was suddenly raised due to needing a 500 post count or it turns out Muff suddenly hates people from Ohio,it's his perogative and I have no right to be pissed. He's offering an invaluable service here and really has created a community that I visit every day, but obviously don't post in every day. And I don't show up just to see what's for sale. Basically, the lamest part of this thread for me is seeing Muff stress about it when he shouldn't have to defend how he runs his site.
rico loverde
the 50 post rule is here to protect everyone involved, get over it already. if you dont like it then go sell your stuff elsewhere. seriously dont ruin it for the people who have created this wonderful place. Get involved, 50 posts is nothing esp if you have an ounce of passion for this stuff. I know Im repeating things said already, just showing my support.

Muff your dedication is amazing and I cant thank you enough for the firends Ive made here and the resources Ive used. I would hate to see the B/S/T section go but at the same time if it becomes a problem for you I understand. This is the first forum Ive ever given a shit about and I find myself getting defensive of it.

The ones that seem to complain about the 50 post rule to me seem only interested in the B/S/T section and that is only a small part of Muffs.

Once again thank you Muffwiggler and thank you to all the admins!!! You guys rule!!!!! SlayerBadger! SlayerBadger! SlayerBadger! SlayerBadger! SlayerBadger! SlayerBadger!
rezzn8r
rico loverde wrote:

Once again thank you Muffwiggler and thank you to all the admins!!! You guys rule!!!!! SlayerBadger! SlayerBadger! SlayerBadger! SlayerBadger! SlayerBadger! SlayerBadger!



+1 we're not worthy
hednoize
MrBiggs wrote:
hednoize wrote:
Speaking of community engagement, I've read many of your posts throughout the forum as both a lurker (pre-registration) and now active member (though not as prolific as yourself). One thread in particular that I read through last week regarding VCAs (which I believe you started) was very instructive. Thank you for that.


If it's me whom you're addressing and it's this thread you're mentioning, then good. Glad it helped someone other than me.


It was indeed you I was addressing, and that was indeed the thread. Thanks again! Guinness ftw!
sandyb
my €0.02

the recent changes which have apparently not worked out were largely at my instigation. it was my suggestion that we (ie muff and myself) do something about b/s/t. muff did the code and happened to be awake when this thread started. but the idea was mine so feel free to moan at me too if you wish. please don't give muff (a person i consider a good friend and who does way more for, and cares more about, this place than you'll ever realise) shit about this.

why do i think b/s/t needs to change? largely through my observations and experiences as an admin here.

i'm honestly fed up chasing new and often not so new wigglers on an almost daily basis because they are seemingly intent on finding ways to circumvent one of the very few rules we actually have. nothing says less to me about being part of, or caring about, a community than not respecting the odd rule that's in place, regardless of whether one agrees with said rule or not. and that makes me feel really sad as i love this place and the community that it represents for me.

people talk about community, yet i hear justifications virtually everyday why people should not be subject to the same rules as everyone else.

"i have good ebay feedback"
"i'm well known in synth circles"
"i'm a member on forum X"
"i didn't know there was a rule" (despite the fact i've written that i tried to post in b/s/t to start with)
"i'm a "famous" musician"

the 50 post rule was initially put in place to try to protect wigglers following some people getting ripped off by a new member and to try to preserve the sense of community that we felt was being diluted at that time by a steady influx of people coming here to buy or sell and with no interest in giving anything else back. the excuses, like those above, that i hear only reinforce my view that it was the right thing to do.

i'd happily leave b/s/t as it is if everyone would actually respect the 50 post rule. it seems there's a significant minority who are not willing to do this though. the solution is really up to all of you, especially those of you who have a low post count here and are directly affected by the rule. put up 50 posts with woah thumbs up applause if you want. if that's your way of contributing to this community then i'd suggest you're mistaken and perhaps you need to spend a bit more time reading and appreciating the time and effort that lots of great wigglers put in here to make it a resource that so many choose to use.



sandy
Reality Checkpoint
Well said Sandy!

Thankyou for all your hard work and patience. It is very much appreciated.
AntManBee
As a new wiggler I thought it wise that I had to make 50 posts before I could use the B/S/T and, perhaps naively, it didn't cross my mind to make (intentionally) irreleveant posts in order to gain access to the B/S/T.

What I particularly appreciate about the B/S/T is the sense of trust due to familiarity from posting on the forum and, if I'd had to wait til 200 posts that would also have been fine - the B/S/T is a privilege, not a right.

I think, given the trial-and-error nature of modular and shifting tastes, that the B/S/T is a natural extension of the trading of information, but it's vital it's kept that way and not allowed to turn into a marketplace.
solitaryzen
Jeez, away from the forum for a couple of days and seems a bit has been going on!

Very sorry to hear about all the stress from the BST forum Muff. That was the forum that drew me here in the first place when I took the plunge to start putting together a big frac system (and what good timing it was wink )
Honestly though, it is everything else here that is the real value of the place. Truly the most amazing electronic music-making resource on the 'net I reckon. Whatever you decide to do with the BST forum, you've got my support 100%.
VortexRanger
For what it's worth:

I have been a modular synth user for about three years.

I discovered Muff's about two months ago.

Muff's is the best thing that has happened to me, synth-wise, in that whole span of time.

My knowledge has effectively quadrupled, I have lost what little nervousness and reservations I had about format-switching, technical specs, etc. etc. gobbledygook, and I've learned to think about synths in ways I had not before. I visit every day and try to insert what (relatively) little wisdom I have wherever I can.

I wish I had discovered Muff's long ago. It's the best-kept secret on the net.

The BST forum has also been helpful, as I've picked up some modules I might not have been able to acquire otherwise. Also, I feel confident that in the future I will be able to move on from any modules that don't work for me. Part of the beauty of this hobby is that everything has a million possible uses, and what doesn't work for one person will for another. Being able to easily pass them on to the next wiggler is good for all involved.

I am pretty new here, but I would remain an active member of this community even if B/S/T were abolished, or if it still existed but I did not have the credentials for it.

But I still like it.

I'd like to add my voice to the chorus of those who trust in the judgment of Muff himself. I can't express how awesome this forum is. Nowhere else even comes close to the wealth of knowledge and humor found here. And the custom emoticons are Rockin' Banana! !!!

Rock on, dude!
drewtoothpaste
What I'm seeing here - and this is my opinion - is not something going on with B/S/T or any rules or standards. It's a problem that happens to nearly any website that begins to get popular.

The problem here is that the flood of new users, who want to buy/sell gear, are all funneling into one person's (Sandy's) inbox, who has to answer everyone round the clock. It happens to me - I handle all the customer service for my business as well as maintain our content-delivery sites and moderate our user community.

Answering the same dumb question over and over makes you mad. You do it 1 time or 10 times, fine, but 100 times and you wonder what you're doing wrong, or you wonder why everyone seems so dumb. I run a few websites and this sort of thing always happens to me. You're having a shit day and someone is particularly nasty about what they say and you want to reach through and pull them up off the keyboard by their ear.

I've found that no matter how many times or places I put rules/information/etc., that the people who read and obey will do so with a simple polite notice, and the folks who don't read or obey will fail to do so regardless of the number of times I tell them. The majority of people who fail to read rules or regulations are simply missing the explanation - they are asking in good faith why they can't have what they want, because they honestly don't understand why. They're kids, or they're drunk, or they just can't read well.

The solution for me has been to draw up form letters for my most common dumb questions, and to respond to users asking the questions by dragging in the form letter. I don't have to spend time or energy typing it out or explaining it, and it's a simple enough process that it doesn't provoke an emotional response. Make the form letter as polite and cheerful as you can, and if someone responds with piss and vinegar, don't reply to 'em, just delete the message so you won't even be tempted to write back and start a fight.

This is what's worked for me. My own community (20k users) is a mess, and a small percentage of the users cause the majority of the problems. But figuring out how to work around the stress points has been a big help to me. There are still days when someone will call me a penis for no good reason, but that's life online, I guess.
Christopher Winkels
Drew's points make a lot of sense.

Muff and Sandy: if you need help, I'd volunteer to be lend a hand. I've done moderating on a couple of websites (both car related, for what it's worth).
MrBiggs
Christopher Winkels wrote:
Drew's points make a lot of sense.


That'e because he's a penis.
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