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WIGGLING 'LITE' IN GUEST MODE

weird problem with b/s/t forum
MUFF WIGGLER Forum Index -> Announcements - Please read!  
Author weird problem with b/s/t forum
budz
For some reason today I can't browse the b/s/t forum. Anyone else having this problem? It says "Sorry, you do not yet have enough relevant posts to view this subforum!"

Apart from the fact that it should say "Sorry, you do not have enough money to view this subforum!", I've never had this issue before! seriously, i just don't get it

edit - and I just realised I should have posted this in the Forum + Wiki Discussion & Requests forum. Fail confused
budz
OK so now I noticed this information at the top of the forum:

Are you affected by the recent B/S/T policy change? Don't panic! It's nothing personal and no individuals have been singled out. The 'rules' are being enforced by code that is constantly weighing a number of factors. We have had *far* too many complaints lately and the options are to either completely close B/S/T, or adopt something like we've implemented today. Thank-you for your understanding.

So what gives? I can't see any threads discussing this topic. I actually have a FS thread active at the moment and I can't view it d'oh!

So I guess I'm wondering what constitutes a 'relevant post' and how many of them you actually need? Don't positive buyer/seller references in the b/s/t sticky count for anything?
AnalogBastard
Was wondering too.. seriously, i just don't get it whats the magic number ? what's relevant ? I donated to this site after it crashed not long ago.. kind of sorry i did now.. angry
nonbot
I just posted something in B/S/T and now I can't even view my own post/finish selling to people who were interested! very frustrating
Somatic
is there a link to the recent B/S/T policy change?
rac
budz wrote:


Apart from the fact that it should say "Sorry, you do not have enough money to view this subforum!", I've never had this issue before! seriously, i just don't get it


haha so true.

Yeah, I hope it doesnt get shut down. I was hoping to use it really soon.
snufkin
yeah it's kind of crazy harsh

I've actually already bought something from BST and now I cant even read the forum

I understand there needs to be check and balances but there are other ways

I have 80ish posts here is that not enough? (and post count doesn't always insure safety)

I bought face to face but info like good ebay record/good trader threads and lists of trades in sigs or on profiles seem like better ways to insure safety

also many of my posts are in the video synth forum and I feel were very relevant Mr. Green
joshnapkins
what's the new policy? i'm a new here as far as posts concern but i've happily bought & traded stuff on bst over the past few months as i worked my way into modular land.
hednoize
I have both items for sale, and purchased item awaiting shipping which I bought last night from the B/S/T forum. I may not have hundreds or thousands of posts like other users here, but I'm well over the 50 post minimum required for posting items for sale. This is extremely disappointing. Fucking Citizen Mori and other lazy/inconsiderate people who take people's money and ship a month later. Thanks, assholes.

Guess I'm back to paying the eBay tax. Not that I ever find much of what I want in Eurorack on eBay, And I hate selling there.
xi-bot
what ? 90+ are not enough !!!
ok. then i start posting
whats the daily limit of posts ?
;-)
leitner6
This is happening to me too. Is this a policy change or a software bug? I'm below the 50 threshold, but I've had 4 successful transactions from here. That would suck to be banned from that forum.
michenal
Maybe we can build our post count in this thread hihi
snufkin
surly there could be some kind of amnesty for people who might have lower post counts but have already proved fairly trustworthy (not talking about myself I have only done one deal, more for people who have done 3 or 4 and have active posts there)

and also info on what the required post count is and what makes a post relevant
budz
Yeah totally perplexed... how is a post count a measure of reliability?

Why would people complain about the b/s/t forum?

If someone got ripped off, how is it the b/s/t forum's fault?

People can get ripped off anywhere - ebay, craigslist etc. If they are too trusting and not careful enough that's their own risk surely? It's fucking terrible that it should happen, but I just can't see how it's the fault of the b/s/t forum?

And I guess what's driving me really mad here is there's not a single thread or post about this new policy. I'm guessing it's in the b/s/t forum. Urgh!
michenal
This is really ridiculous to be honest. There are better ways to implement buyer and seller protection. Now you need to be part of a club to even be able to see b/s/t posts? angry very frustrating
wmgaretjax
kind of a bummer... but I guess this makes sense. does seriously impose on folks who have pending transactions that can no longer access the threads...
infradead
budz wrote:
So what gives? I can't see any threads discussing this topic. I actually have a FS thread active at the moment and I can't view it d'oh!

So I guess I'm wondering what constitutes a 'relevant post' and how many of them you actually need? Don't positive buyer/seller references in the b/s/t sticky count for anything?


lol to funny

they've got to have something that's going by post count and word per post maybe? not counting it towards the number needed to view the forum unless words per post is over X amount or something
michenal
budz wrote:
Yeah totally perplexed... how is a post count a measure of reliability?

Why would people complain about the b/s/t forum?

If someone got ripped off, how is it the b/s/t forum's fault?

People can get ripped off anywhere - ebay, craigslist etc. If they are too trusting and not careful enough that's their own risk surely? It's fucking terrible that it should happen, but I just can't see how it's the fault of the b/s/t forum?

And I guess what's driving me really mad here is there's not a single thread or post about this new policy. I'm guessing it's in the b/s/t forum. Urgh!


It's not post count, it's "relevant" posts... Whatever that means.
parasitk
budz wrote:
And I guess what's driving me really mad here is there's not a single thread or post about this new policy. I'm guessing it's in the b/s/t forum.


No, there's not. There's no word anywhere at the moment.
leitner6
michenal wrote:
Maybe we can build our post count in this thread hihi


no kidding... I hope my cats are feeling photogenic, I feel 40+ cat posts in my future. hihi

post = post + 1;
nonbot
michenal wrote:
This is really ridiculous to be honest. There are better ways to implement buyer and seller protection. Now you need to be part of a club to even be able to see b/s/t posts? angry very frustrating


+1 seriously, i just don't get it

michenal wrote:
Maybe we can build our post count in this thread hihi


hihi
infradead
can we have an auto ban for WTB threads if you have under 60 posts? hihi
ynth
The dubious transactions thread is ripe with veteran Wigglers pissing on one another.

How are the old-timers going to finance their (insert boutique synthmaker here) lust now without the new guard buying up all their unwanted shit?
budz
parasitk wrote:
budz wrote:
And I guess what's driving me really mad here is there's not a single thread or post about this new policy. I'm guessing it's in the b/s/t forum.


No, there's not. There's no word anywhere at the moment.


Thanks for the info parasitk!
cerebrosis
Quote:
The 'rules' are being enforced by code that is constantly weighing a number of factors
xi-bot
i guess its a mistake
otherwise there should be a announcement with the limits etc.
michenal
infradead wrote:
budz wrote:
So what gives? I can't see any threads discussing this topic. I actually have a FS thread active at the moment and I can't view it d'oh!

So I guess I'm wondering what constitutes a 'relevant post' and how many of them you actually need? Don't positive buyer/seller references in the b/s/t sticky count for anything?


lol to funny

my guess is it looks at post and and words per post or something like that?

which is why i always do this

Schadenfreude (pronounced /ˈʃɑːdənfrɔɪdə/ About this sound Audio (US) (help·info), German pronunciation: [ˈʃaːdənˌfʁɔʏdə]) is pleasure derived from the misfortunes of others.[1] This German word is used as a loanword in English and some other languages, and has been calqued in Danish and Norwegian as skadefryd and Swedish as skadeglädje.


What is the word count to be relevant? This is really beyond ridiculous..

It was actually discussed on the B/S/T forum how one "relevant" poster had never sent modules and a Tr808 to buyers. Citizen Mori was his name..

I guess they are going to prevent these things from happening by implementing such measures. hmmm..... angry


Probably a good trick infradead..

Schadenfreude (pronounced /ˈʃɑːdənfrɔɪdə/ About this sound Audio (US) (help·info), German pronunciation: [ˈʃaːdənˌfʁɔʏdə]) is pleasure derived from the misfortunes of others.[1] This German word is used as a loanword in English and some other languages, and has been calqued in Danish and Norwegian as skadefryd and Swedish as skadeglädje.
michenal
infradead wrote:
can we have an auto ban for WTB threads if you have under 60 posts? hihi


Are you actually banned from the B/S/T forum infradead ? With your post count you must have been highly irrelevant in all your posts hihi
Somatic
quit moaning, you fucking bitches
hednoize
ynth wrote:
The dubious transactions thread is ripe with veteran Wigglers pissing on one another.

How are the old-timers going to finance their (insert boutique synthmaker here) lust now without the new guard buying up all their unwanted shit?


Exactly. I was thinking the same thing.

Muff's as a whole is an invaluable forum, and I don't want to seem overly-critical, but this policy reminds me of the TSA in the US looking for shoe bombers. Looking in the wrong places.

Hopefully this post makes me relevant.
infradead
WTB: Shoe Bombs
AnalogBastard
Somatic wrote:
quit moaning, you fucking bitches


Moaning hmmm..... can't you see meh were building up our relevant post's count Mr. Green
Somatic
fuck sake, if your only reason to be here is to buy ,sell ,trade
and not contribute otherwise ,think on.
wmgaretjax
i want to believe there is some logic to your use of commas... but at the moment I'm a bit perplexed. that and the cat with the ears is creeping me out.
Muff Wiggler
goddamn it you guys are right. There's no winning. "Veteran" wigglers ripping people off. Honest "new guard" members.

People coming here in droves not to participate, just to buy.

There's no way in hell I can balance it so everyone is happy.

1 hour into an experimental code change and look at this thread.

I'm kinda frustrated after struggling with code for ages, getting complaints from people who've contributed massive amounts of info and discussion to this forum, and trying to keep everyone happy.

I'm going to bed soon to sleep on it as I know right now I'm just frustrated and cynical so I apologize. I will probably have a brighter outlook in the morning. But at the moment it looks like this to me:

"What do you want? A community or a marketplace?" Because it seems like we can't have both. very frustrating

Guys, I'm really fucking trying. I'm sorry.
budz
Made many contributions personally, some of them even helpful.. I'm not really complaining until I know the criteria. very frustrating
AnalogBastard
I have contributed $$ out of my pocket to help support this site, sir. But that i guess is irrelavent too.
wmgaretjax
Muff Wiggler wrote:

There's no way in hell I can balance it so everyone is happy.


I think this is inevitable unfortunately... But a bit of a warning next time might help. 8_)

I know I sat there refreshing the page thinking something was wrong for a bit!
Muff Wiggler
AnalogBastard wrote:
I have contributed $$ out of my pocket to help support this site, sir. But that i guess is irrelavent too.


See what I mean? Now people are putting words in my mouth that I never said or never WOULD say.

I love you all, really, but fucking hell. Trying to keep 3000 members happy. Dead Banana

Right now the future looks like no more BST forum and no more donate button. I really REALLY do love you all, I love that you love this forum, I'm grateful for your support. But I don't know what to do. I'm sorry I let you down.

I'm going to bed. Don't sweat it. Fuck it's a code change, I can turn it off. What the fuck.
mckenic
Muff Wiggler wrote:
Guys, I'm really fucking trying. I'm sorry.


Im only here a short time but I can say, after looking back at other threads and with the big outage a few months ago - Muff will sort it out! I dont know how he does it but he always seems to make the right choice - so just keep yer powder dry and trust Muff!

Perhaps someone that can view the forum could contact your potential buyers and ask em to PM you?
jarvis
I see what Muff is trying to do, and I can appreciate it. I think the veteran/new guard thing is kind of bullshit really. I do my share of b/s/t posts, but I also contribute what I can on the forums. The reason why the b/s/t is usually really great here is because you "know" (as much as that's possible on the web) the entity you are dealing with. That's not to say shit doesn't go wrong sometime, but I'd rather do business with people who I've participated in good conversations/topics with. It takes time to be part of a community, and posting a bunch of thumbs up and Dead Banana and "cool!" in threads is not being part of a community. I don't think it's about being in a "club" - it's about participating, and pretty much everyone is welcome to do so
Muff Wiggler
Now I'm getting DDOS'ed sad banana Gonna cost me a fortune. Whomever is doing that, nice one. Yay. You're awesome. help
Somatic
wmgaretjax wrote:
i want to believe there is some logic to your use of commas...

I just use them where I see fit,,,sort of like to sprinkle them about a bit,,,
Logic aint no friend of mine,

but at the moment I'm a bit perplexed. that and the cat with the ears is creeping me out.


good, It's motherfucking bacon yo It's motherfucking bacon yo It's motherfucking bacon yo It's motherfucking bacon yo
budz
Muff, we cross-posted earlier. Well, sounds like you've had to deal with some annoying shit, so that's that. I only started this thread because I couldn't work out what was going on, and couldn't find any info about it. It's a shame but I guess there's reasons behind it.
hednoize
Muff Wiggler wrote:

Guys, I'm really fucking trying. I'm sorry.


Thank you for hosting this forum and putting your time and effort into it. I understand this is extremely frustrating, and any effort your exert is much appreciated.

Personally, I think the creation of the Dubious Transactions sticky in the B/S/T was a great idea. That, and a huge CAVEAT EMPTOR is probably the only thing you can do. Seems to work for Gearslutz. (Or maybe it doesn't, I have no inside knowledge about the success or failure of the GS Classifieds system).
AnalogBastard
Muff Wiggler wrote:
AnalogBastard wrote:
I have contributed $$ out of my pocket to help support this site, sir. But that i guess is irrelavent too.


See what I mean? Now people are putting words in my mouth that I never said or never WOULD say.

I love you all, really, but fucking hell. Trying to keep 3000 members happy. Dead Banana

Right now the future looks like no more BST forum and no more donate button. I really REALLY do love you all, I love that you love this forum, I'm grateful for your support. But I don't know what to do. I'm sorry I let you down.

I'm going to bed. Don't sweat it. Fuck it's a code change, I can turn it off. What the fuck.


FWIW, my post was not in response to you, your post wasn't even up while i was typing, it was meant in response to another above that insuated that people should stop bitching and contribute more to the site.
I'm sorry that i don't post volumes of useful or amusing anecdotes or opinions. You do a nice job with this site, not to worry, I still love it CODE and all hihi
ignatius
Muff Wiggler wrote:
Now I'm getting DDOS'ed sad banana Gonna cost me a fortune. Whomever is doing that, nice one. Yay. You're awesome. help


what is DDOS'ed?

i'll just say that muff.. whatever you decide and however it works out.. you should sleep well at night. this forum rocks.

also, i'm curious about the complaints? what is there to complain about in the BST forum? are people just complaining because it's so active some times?
mckenic
Denial of service by sending squillions of requests to the host machine at the same time (I think).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denial-of-service_attack

I think too according to the SAM thingy, some users cant even view the B/S/T... honestly, I'd be fucked without the B/S/T I wouldnt have 1/2 the modules I have but Id prefer having Muffs around without it rather than not having Muffs around at all!
wmgaretjax
The DDOS can't be linked to the BST change... seriously? who would do something like that? Hopefully its just a coincidence.
budz
ignatius - distributed denial of service attack - someone's flooding the server with requests that makes it crap out. It's been down at various points for me tonight so I guess that's what's causing it.

I agree that Muff should definitely not stress about this forum, even as a newish member I can see it's fucking awesome compared to 99.9999% of forums I've been to.

I'm kinda annoyed I even started this thread... I only did it because I couldn't see any info and I thought maybe there was just a database error at first... then I saw the notice at the top and it confused me even more.

edit - fwiw, I just reached 100 posts during the course of this horrible thread and I can see the b/s/t forum now. So unless Muff turned off the code change before he went to bed, that was it I guess.
Muff Wiggler
The DDOS started within 5 mins of this thread being created. It's a hell of a coincidence.

----
edit: I am absolutely NOT insinuating that budz or anyone else in this thread initiated the attack. Far, far more people simply read and lurk than do post.... haha ironically that's the heart of the B/S/T debate isn't it?
-----

At a minimum the attack kept me from going to bed as I'm trying to identify and filter origin IPs to keep the bandwidth suck to a minimum and hopefully keep the site up (they've crashed it three times so far), not to mention limit as much as possible how much the attack will cost me in monetary terms.

As a result, just to chill shit out while I sleep, I'm relaxing the new code a bit. Temporarily if you have 50 posts or more you can get into B/S/T. I don't know what the future holds. Need to think about it.

Thanks guys, really do appreciate all your support. I'm so proud to offer you all this site and no matter what happens the site will NEVER go away. I just need to find the best way to keep the largest number of people happy and keep the complaints to a minimum.

Hug
questionable
Muff...however you want to run your forum is fine. I hope the DOS attacks are not related to the B/S/T changes. Certainly seems like a bigger issue related to Dreamhost.

If people are cheesed at being locked out, they're probably more cheesed about not understanding or being able to find the new rules than the actual rule changes.
hednoize
Muff Wiggler wrote:
Now I'm getting DDOS'ed sad banana Gonna cost me a fortune. Whomever is doing that, nice one. Yay. You're awesome. help


That is lame as fuck.

I have to say, it's an amazing thing you've done with this forum, donating your time and energy (and money) to create this community. And I understand you're just trying to make it function better -- and you're right, it's probably impossible to make everybody happy.

Keep your chin up. Guinness ftw!
bwhittington
Muff Wiggler wrote:
"What do you want? A community or a marketplace?" Because it seems like we can't have both.


First off, oddly enough, I think I might like the forum better without B/S/T, just because it would remove my obsessiveness from the equation. hihi

The trick of it is that the marketplace drives the community. It brings in new folks, some of whom stick around to contributors even though more than half of them don't (this topic was my underlying interest in digging up posting stats in the member section yesterday). It also increases the frequency of visits of contributing members and helps promote the hobby by getting new folks involved.

I would understand if you decided to nix it altogether if it is causing problems, but the Catch 22 is that the community we love would likely be a rather different place without it. Maybe that would be different in a good way, even if traffic was lowered a bit.

This clearly seems to be causing you some grief, so I'd also like to say thanks for the great job you've done with this place. There will always be some squeaky wheels, but I'm sure the vast majority of us will support your decision whatever it is.

Cheers,
Brian
wmgaretjax
I think it might be a dreamhost problem... another forum I visit went down at the same time and I thought it was funny... double checked and they are on dreamhost as well. or that might just be a coincidence... but they did come back up at the exact same time as well...
Luka
Actually i think the community would be the same without bst. Your stats displayed that the majority of members do not contribute to the forum post count.

I would miss bst but would rather get rid of it if it is going to burden muff and sandy. I dont think people realise all the work that goes into maintaining it - technically, mentally and personal time wise. It is a free service - the only requirement has been that members contribute 50 posts to gain access.
haricots
There are a bunch of known 'regulars' who only post when they have something to sell - that is lame. People getting ripped off lately is crazy and sad. Muff, I hope you figure out a reasonable way to sort this out.
Babaluma
it's so funny to see a million low post count members i've never noticed before bitching about this!

mike, do what you have to do. ditch the BST if it will cause less headaches!
rac
Just a suggestion.

I have no idea how this might work, but what if we kept B/S/T but only allowed for local commerce? Kind of like a small scale CL.

For ex: I've noticed a bunch of other people here from Portland, OR. Maybe they'd be interested?

This way you only deal with local pickup, and don't really have to worry about people scamming others since it's face to face?

With that said, I'm not sure how it would work in this context of this forum or how you'd even enforce that.
dude
haricots wrote:
There are a bunch of known 'regulars' who only post when they have something to sell - that is lame. People getting ripped off lately is crazy and sad. Muff, I hope you figure out a reasonable way to sort this out.


totally. man i was just reading through this. i had no idea there was trouble. whatever helps you reach a sense of ideals or relative peace about this place mister muff is perfect by me. you are a prince to have started this place and to keep it going for us. bst ain't worth the trouble if it is fucking this place up. the crack fiends (myself included) can find other ways.
michenal
Muff Wiggler wrote:
The DDOS started within 5 mins of this thread being created. It's a hell of a coincidence.

----
edit: I am absolutely NOT insinuating that budz or anyone else in this thread initiated the attack. Far, far more people simply read and lurk than do post.... haha ironically that's the heart of the B/S/T debate isn't it?
-----

At a minimum the attack kept me from going to bed as I'm trying to identify and filter origin IPs to keep the bandwidth suck to a minimum and hopefully keep the site up (they've crashed it three times so far), not to mention limit as much as possible how much the attack will cost me in monetary terms.

As a result, just to chill shit out while I sleep, I'm relaxing the new code a bit. Temporarily if you have 50 posts or more you can get into B/S/T. I don't know what the future holds. Need to think about it.

Thanks guys, really do appreciate all your support. I'm so proud to offer you all this site and no matter what happens the site will NEVER go away. I just need to find the best way to keep the largest number of people happy and keep the complaints to a minimum.

Hug


Muff, this is a great forum. If you decide to close the b/s/t forum then fine, but I find it a bit awkward to make it accessible only to "relevant" posters, whatever that means.

I am not sure what problems you want to resolve with this constraint, but it seems to me that if you want to make a 100% trouble-free b/s/t forum you will not be able to do it by limiting access to newer members.

I may be wrong, but some of the recent problems in the b/s/t forum have not entirely been caused by new members, as they cannot sell anyway.

I have personally been attracted to Muffwiggler for other reasons than the b/s/t forum, but I have been able to build some of my modular thanks to the b/s/t forum, and now I am addicted cry
Christopher Winkels
Muff, you're doing an A+ job. Seriously, don't stress over this. As you said, if it all gets to be too much, just flip the switch and go back to the way things were a week ago.

Please do not get rid of BST though. I'd wager fewer than 5% of my posts occur in that forum, but in dozens of transactions I've never once even come close to being ripped off. The level of honestly here is at least as good if not better than what one will see in everyday interactions with people in a face-to-face context (and I do purchasing for a living).

Yes, there are people who only come on here to buy and sell. It's not the end of the world. I'm sure there are people who have 95% of their posts in the Off Topic forum too.
danox574
So, I have a question.

I've only had a modular for about a year and never frequented this forum. I got most of the useful information I needed from the Yahoo lists, the AH mailing list, etc. I recently had to sell just about all of my modular gear.

I decided to rebuild in Eurorack, bought a small working system, came here, and started supplementing it with the BST forum. Many searches for information led to this forum. I've browsed and read a ton, and when a few discussions have come up about synthesizers.com gear (which I know a bit about) I've tried to assist with the knowledge that I have. It's a small bit of knowledge but I've shared what I can. I won't post shit to run up my posts, I will only post when I feel I'm contributing. This won't happen often until I learn a lot more.

I'm also a big boy and I know I am taking on the risk of any transaction (as buyer or seller) that I participate in and if someone lies about something to me or causes me emotional or financial distress, it doesn't reflect on everyone else here or the guy who runs the place.

Could the person who has a problem with me participating in the MW BST forum please step forward and comment? I'd like to see who this is who's creating pressure for the forum owner here and why they think I don't belong here.
budz
I don't really know what exactly has been going down. Apart from the whole thread about people who got ripped off, I've noticed a few slightly shady moves recently like a blind auction which (rightly imho) riled a few people. Also I think there's a lot of general bitching and bickering that seems to happen about things like prices and shit like that. I think banning unnecessary posts outside of friendly bumps would be a good thing maybe?

I'm guessing the situation as it is now is very hard to moderate. This site isn't a commercial exercise for the people who run it so it's asking a lot to effectively run some kind of e-commerce sub-forum. I think they rightly hope that it will moderate itself, but if some people are acting in a less than cool way then something probably needs to be done seriously, i just don't get it I will miss it if it goes, I've bought and sold quite a few modules without any problems, even way before I reached 50 posts. But I think Muff should do whatever he needs to do to stay sane. Some prior warning or info would be cool though.

Thanks again for the site, it rocks thumbs up
infradead
Muff Wiggler wrote:
Right now the future looks like no more BST forum and no more donate button. I really REALLY do love you all, I love that you love this forum, I'm grateful for your support. But I don't know what to do. I'm sorry I let you down.


What no donate button now that as far as i'm concerned is crazy talk.

Donating.
ignatius
danox574 wrote:

Could the person who has a problem with me participating in the MW BST forum please step forward and comment? I'd like to see who this is who's creating pressure for the forum owner here and why they think I don't belong here.


meet me at the flag pole after school and we'll settle this... razz

i think the 50 post rule is for a buyer's protection.. so there aren't people showing up trying to scam buyers with posts like:

"i know i only have 3 posts but you can trust me.. i'm well regarded on other forums.. please buy my ARP 2600 for $3000. i know the price is low but i really need to sell..." yada yada yada...

and i think in general to keep from having a total flood of FS posts every day from people who aren't interested in being a part of the forum but just want to sell stuff.

personally, i love the BST forum and in my experience i think it works very well..mostly due to the quality of person here on this forum.

i think having a post minimum to sell stuff is a very good idea. though, i think for buying stuff it's less important since as is obvious there are a lot of people getting into modulars who are looking for bargains to get started. the onus is on the seller/buyer to communicate all the details and be clear about what they are selling/buying etc. and to check the "good trader thread" and all that stuff.

i think the necessary disclaimers are in place and the 'good trader' thread is in place so, aside from the odd miscommunication that things work well.

but that's neither here nor there... "heavy is the head that wears the crown" and it's muff's call how it all shakes out though everyone has an opinion, the buck has to stop somewhere.
Muff Wiggler
i seriously want to thank every single person who has posted in this thread. Literally every comment here has given me stuff to think about and helped me gain a better perspective on this.

and as a result, I think I know what to do. And I honestly, honestly believe that the majority of people, new and old alike, will be happy with it.

Perhaps I over stressed this a bit, I`m sorry if I reacted too quickly. I`ve got more going on than I can handle the last few weeks and I`m not doing the best job with anything at the moment to be honest oops

And yes, I do worry and stress (not usually in a bad way) and really try as hard as I can to keep this place as cool as it can be, for you guys. It`s always going to be growing and changing it seems, and that makes the challenge harder, but I think you all deserve it, and the forum deserves it. I really care about this place and all of you and every single decision is really important to me.

Anyway, I`m feeling better. I had a nap. I read your posts and was reminded how I always wanted this to be a place where people can speak their minds and opinions, and I saw that happenening. And I learned some stuff. And as stated I think I know what to do, for everyone.

But, haha, you`ll have to wait. Like I said, I`m a busy boy at the moment. Right now it`s business as usual at Buy-Sell-Trade. I will write up the posts explaining what`s going to happen with that forum, and make the changes sometime in the next week or so. Still want to think about it some more. Need to get it right this time cuz I`m sick of dealing with all you guyses bullshit angry

and oh yeah, buy-sell-trade won`t be going away. Sorry.

AnalogBastard
Dear Muff, I hope you don't squash the donation option, because of my response to another poster. I donated because this forum is the best and as far i'm concerned the last word on modular synth's. By choosing to donate I didn't feel that I would be entitled to any special priviliges etc.
it was an act of appreciation. Please don't let my knee jerk remark, impead on the graditude that members here have for this site and the time and expense it takes to keep things running. Whatever you choose to do will be fine with me, but please reconsider the donation option.
My apologies that any of my comments may have added to the drama and to your aggravation.
Seaweed Sound
michenal wrote:
It's not post count, it's "relevant" posts... Whatever that means.


It is your ratio of posts that contain the phrase "maths".
decaying.sine
One thing I wanted to mention about the BST thread is that I have actually had the pleasure of meeting and getting to know wigglers through selling and trading. It's nice to chat on the phone about transactions, it adds a sense of comfort to certain transactions, and ultimately feels like it spreads a positive community vibe. When I talk to someone, we invariably talk about who else we have talked to and it builds distributed trust that goes beyond the text posting. I don't expect to *know* everyone on a huge forum, but I certainly feel like I know people better and that is based, at least in part, on doing transactions in BST.

There will always be a few bad apples to piss in everyone's punch, but I can honestly say that the BST has broadened the "community feeling" I get when I contribute to Muff's.

I would encourage some of those frustrated by this BST issue in this thread to view it as a site privilege that many people before you have worked hard to make it a good thing. Don't focus on how a few people have fucked up. Focus on how so many people have been honest and reliable or even worked out difficulties without the benefit of face to to face communication. It has worked well. Look at E-M's BST. It doesn't thrive like this one. There is a reason for this. Part of building that privilege is getting involved. In general, I have always had the feeling that everyone wants everyone else here, which is pretty fucking rare. Let's all be careful not to piss in our own jesus juice! SlayerBadger!
danox574
ignatius wrote:

i think the 50 post rule is for a buyer's protection.. so there aren't people showing up trying to scam buyers with posts like:

"i know i only have 3 posts but you can trust me.. i'm well regarded on other forums.. please buy my ARP 2600 for $3000. i know the price is low but i really need to sell..." yada yada yada...


I realize this can happen, and I think that stopping lost post count individuals from posting for sale items has the chance to mitigate this. Nothing is a substitute for 'thinking' though. New users can PM fraudulent offers to people who post WTB: items, for example.

Quote:

and i think in general to keep from having a total flood of FS posts every day from people who aren't interested in being a part of the forum but just want to sell stuff.


If it's an active community of synth addicts, what is the problem with gear being made available to them from a person that doesn't participate? So, someone has gear to dump and doesn't have anything to talk about. What about this bothers everyone so much?

Quote:

i think having a post minimum to sell stuff is a very good idea. though, i think for buying stuff it's less important since as is obvious there are a lot of people getting into modulars who are looking for bargains to get started. the onus is on the seller/buyer to communicate all the details and be clear about what they are selling/buying etc. and to check the "good trader thread" and all that stuff.


I would generally agree on both points. There are lots of people who are acquiring used gear (like myself) and hope to more actively participate in discussions. It's to everyone's advantage to let them buy.

Trying to somehow evaluate the quality of a seller from a collected statistic of forum use is unlikely to be better than most people's bullshit filter, however.
hednoize
decaying.sine wrote:
I can honestly say that the BST has broadened the "community feeling" I get when I contribute to Muff's.


That has been my experience as well, even in my short 10 month tenure here.

And the forum's existence and culture as a whole is something really special that I very much appreciate, B/S/T or not. Big respect to Muff. we're not worthy
Reality Checkpoint
Muff,

I come here because I love the feel of the place, the vast amount of knowledge and experience that is shared and the knowledge that I am in a community where others share our terrible and cruel addiction.

Do what you have to do, you have my full support for whatever decision you need to make. If you need more $$$ to sort out this problem then please make a call and add back the donate button. I know that there are many on here ready, willing and able to help to keep this site, the best on the planet, up and running.

Simon.
aka RC.
darenager
Maybe remove the 50 post BST limit and let wigglers decide if they want to take a chance? Personally I'd be reluctant to buy from someone with a low post count - at least if I did not know of them from other forums/lists.

The internet - what a load of fuckery lol
Curtischip
Muff's My home from home..
A place were like minded ppl can talk about their favorite movies, food, porn, music etc , things that inspire them to create, things that piss em off, it has a sense of community unlike any other forum, ppl share what's going on locally wether it be hail the size of gonads or the first snows of winter a place were ppl can share there sadness or happiness if they choose too.
And ofc there's Modulars/synthesizers too! tips, tricks how too's & don't do's.
A place where manufactures can bounce their ideas of the geeks and find out the faults in their own designs or what would make them better/ more appealing to the users.
Thx Muff! from the bottom of my gravity well! and thx to the moderators and all who give their time and knowledge without charge. applause we're not worthy Guinness ftw!

BST (not auction) is its own entity and needs to be treated as such with stricter rules and signing up policies.
tick to agree on the conditions...
sign up with an address or pay-pal details.... or a referral system or similar to safe guard against fraud. (some ppl just aint honest)
all transaction to be done in the open, no pm'ing until a deal is struck
A buyer seller rating system, where ppl can leave there comments directly connected to the buyer/seller positive,negative or otherwise, so ppl can see and choose to deal with em'.
I think the separate sticky's about bad/good traders is not so great, its too hard to search for info, also I'm not a fan of the new dubious trader thread, it seemed to turn into a stone throwing bash ( it was and is just to name and shame bad traders) I just think there's a better way it can be done.
these are just suggestions, and maybe seem a bit too business like, but we are all precious about money; and for sure 'A change is needed' honesty can be hard to find and without doubt there will always be some rotten apples in the barrel, such is life! sad banana
PhineasFreak
fwiw, i'm wondering if the DDOS was complete coincidence - seems to be all hell broken loose over at DI.fm and some other music forums...

edit: oh, yeah forgot to say - i joined this forum to learn about modular synths. i like the sense of humour and community that is associated with this place, and that has encouraged me to actually read/post/share rather than just lurk with the intention of leeching info and getting a bargain.

i look forward to the day when i find there's a need for knowledge i have and hence can give something back...
Joe.
I think acting like someone can be trusted simply because of a post count, is highly optimistic at best. Personally I’d call it something completely different, and a lot more insulting.

I honestly don’t care if the B/S/T Section is locked, it should be replaced with something simple like a link to eBay auctions, where you actually have protection, and aren’t relying on the other person being a knight who will commit seppuku if their honor is lost (which is what it seems like the people expect here)

Before the whiners complain about eBay/Paypal fees I’ll mention a term called “Buyer/Seller protection”, something that Muffwigglers does not, and will never offer, as a free forum service.
mono-poly
darenager wrote:
Maybe remove the 50 post BST limit and let wigglers decide if they want to take a chance? Personally I'd be reluctant to buy from someone with a low post count - at least if I did not know of them from other forums/lists.

The internet - what a load of fuckery lol


I like the post limit.
This is the wiggler comunity and people should contribute to it.
And that's not just by selling your stuff here!
nrdvrgr
I have never learned this much ANYWHERE on the internetz, I have never met this much nice people in one place, I have never been to ANY "meets" like the Wiggler ones we set up here in Sweden, I have managed to release music and collaborate with fellow Wigglers through this forum... etc etc etc...

To summarize: I have become a better musician (?) by joining this place. I hope I have managed to rub off some of what I have learned on the noobs.
And since I hate Facebook and that shit I have made this my "social network" instead.

Carry on.
Luka
i think the post count rule makes it a bit harder for people to target out community - the post count rule makes any scam a little less anonymous

is 50 posts that hard to do?
Ekofisk
I am not pretending to know what goes on in Muff's mind, but as I understand it, the 50-post rule isn't saying that people with a lot of posts can be trusted. As always, common sense applies. But having some sort of qualification like the 50 post-thing goes a long way in losing some of the obvious scammers who only sign up to take peoples money. When needing 50 posts to do so, the threshold might become just high enough to avoid at least a few dodgy people.

If in doubt regarding a member's credibility, checking out his/her posts can give a fairly decent indication of whether this member can be trusted. Having 50 of those posts instead of 1 makes this task easier.

This is a small price to pay to make the b/s/t a bit safer, imo.
Ekofisk
Luka wrote:
i think the post count rule makes it a bit harder for people to target out community - the post count rule makes any scam a little less anonymous

is 50 posts that hard to do?


Exactly.
MrBiggs
I nearly fell down when I read that there are 3000 Muff Wiggler attendees. 3000!?!?
If I had to, and I don't, I think I could off the top of my head think of 50 names, and then going through the forum could add 50 or 75 more. Who the hell are these people that register and then don't participate? I read some forums without participating (Telecaster stuff, mountain bike stuff), but I don't register and I certainly don't expect to be able to access the registered user only perks like a marketplace or advanced search without participating.

I also don't see where donating to Muffs is supposed to allow access to BST. You donate to Muffs to help keep it going. You post and participate to gain access to BST. That's pretty clear and pretty simple.

Muffs is a forum where I learn stuff. I contribute stuff. I talk about users and posts to my fiancée, I try to learn cool tricks and make great patches so that I can share them here. I research stuff with my modular (and other gear) so that I can answer questions I read from someone who also wants to learn and participate. And, as a perk, there's a great marketplace here where I can throw my money at stuff. The idea of complaining that you're not "allowed" or the bitchiness shown in the early part of this thread is bizarre. There is no connection or relevance to the Citizen Mori thing and the 50 post count. As others have stated, a lot of people have apparently joined Muffs in the past to do nothing but buy/sell and rip off. The roadblock to solve that might affect you, but tough shit. Get out of the chair and participate. Help out with euro jack questions. Compare some envelopes. Make a Max patch and share it. Take a picture of your rack and guitar. Fight with Nelson Baboon. Piss off Metasonix. Be a part of this. Thats the point of Muffs.

Fifty posts is piddlyshit. If you love this stuff and this place fifty posts is what you hit in a week, and you drive an hour to have beer with members so you can talk in person about expanders for e350s and the uses of a Z8000.

If you're not interested in any of that, eBay and Craigslist are your friends. Have fun.
hednoize
MrBiggs wrote:

Fifty posts is piddlyshit. If you love this stuff and this place fifty posts is what you hit in a week, and you drive an hour to have beer with members so you can talk in person about expanders for e350s and the uses of a Z8000.

If you're not interested in any of that, eBay and Craigslist are your friends. Have fun.


I'm not sure there's been a significant call to eliminate the 50 posts rule.

There were several early posters to this thread (during the temporary B/S/T lockout) that were over 50 posts who suddenly no longer had access to it yesterday, despite the fact that they had items for sale and/or purchases pending, myself included. I think the anxiety for some came from the lack of information as to how they might be able to ever have access the B/S/T with the new code Muff had implemented, even though we had met the 50 post minimum, and, at least in my case, indeed contributed to Muffs in the various subforums (and that includes more substantial posts than just 50 replies of "cool" or nanners).

But whatever solution he comes up with is cool with me. It is after all, his creation and blood and sweat, and I am just it its beneficiary. I do think the B/S/T is a beautiful addition to the forum as a whole, and it has helped me engage with other users and put together some of my modular rig, and for that I am grateful and do not overlook the privilege that it is.

Speaking of community engagement, I've read many of your posts throughout the forum as both a lurker (pre-registration) and now active member (though not as prolific as yourself). One thread in particular that I read through last week regarding VCAs (which I believe you started) was very instructive. Thank you for that. thumbs up
bwhittington
hednoize wrote:
I think the anxiety for some came from the lack of information as to how they might be able to ever have access the B/S/T with the new code Muff had implemented,


I agree that the lack of information on the new policy was pretty much a total fail. I think the early posters to this thread had some very valid points. Some hysteria, too. zombie

Cheers,
Brian
michenal
hednoize wrote:


I'm not sure there's been a significant call to eliminate the 50 posts rule.


Exactly. This rule has been in place for some time now, and the early posters did not challenge it.

Restricting access to the B/S/T forum (i.e. forbidding people with less than 50 "relevant" posts to even READ the bst forum) was what was hotly debated.. Plus of course the fact that there had been no announcement whatsoever made people shout out loud..

I (may) understand the need to protect buyers from unknown wigglers, even though one should always be cautious and use Paypal with credit cards when purchasing over the faceless internet etc.., but restricting access to potential buyers or even lurkers was what made people tick.

At any rate Muff is the one in charge, so ultimately it is up to him..

BTW, thanks again for your efforts Muff!
MrBiggs
michenal wrote:
hednoize wrote:


I'm not sure there's been a significant call to eliminate the 50 posts rule.


Exactly. This rule has been in place for some time now, and the early posters did not challenge it.


Point taken. I understand the complaints. My ire here is misplaced maybe, but generally when little oinkers complain that they wanna sell/buy dammit and why can't they, it just bums me out.

hednoize wrote:
Speaking of community engagement, I've read many of your posts throughout the forum as both a lurker (pre-registration) and now active member (though not as prolific as yourself). One thread in particular that I read through last week regarding VCAs (which I believe you started) was very instructive. Thank you for that.


If it's me whom you're addressing and it's this thread you're mentioning, then good. Glad it helped someone other than me. I still stare at my Azimuth, Malekko VCA, and A132-3 with questions marks over my head half the time. Alas, that's why I like me Muff Wiggler dot com.
Animal!
Low-Gain
wow i completely missed this thread.


I've been an admin on 2 forums that i've helped start and grow.
One now being 25k members and the other i think a couple thousand members. I totally understand your frustrations! It's not an easy job(specially since it doesn't pay!!!). Which is why i've stepped down from both due to my stress levels getting too high because of it. MuffWig.. you're a SUPER fucking AWESOME guy! And i can't thank you enough for doing everything you've done for this community! SlayerBadger! SlayerBadger! nanners nanners love love So that being said.. I'm cool with what ever you end up deciding to do.


regarding the BST forum... The way i've handled those in the past is
pretty simple..

"This forum and it's administrators are not liable for any crimes committed through using the Buy/Sell/Trade forum. BUY/SELL/TRADE AT YOUR OWN RISK! Only Members w/ 50 or more posts may view/use this forum"

Seems pretty straight forward and simple. We all know the risks of b/s/t on the internet. I think members should be able to show some responsibility and understand that you (muffwiggler) or any admin/moderator are not responsible or liable for any crimes committed through the b/s/t/ section. It really shouldn't be something that needs to be moderated in that sense. Short of members that have been known to be ripping peolple off should be banned.

We all buy/sell/trade at our own risk and understand that in the event of something like this happening.. the forum/messageboard can not be held responsible/liable.

Ok.. now I'm repeating myself..

regardless of what you end up doing, i hope you can wipe your hands clean of it and not have to stress about it. Thanks again for doing such an amazing job MuffWig! U DA MAN!!!
SlayerBadger! SlayerBadger! SlayerBadger!


should u do away w/ the bst section.. i will be sad as it has saved me so much cash by not having to sell on eBay wink That alone is worth me donating some money every few months! So keep that damn donate button!!! At the same time.. doing away w/ that forum would probably put an extra $$$$ back into my pocket due to my shopping spree's that i do on a weekly basis. lol lol

lol
fracinfrucer
Muff should not have to stress over this shit. I don't have the highest post count and have an active post in BST (ok, "active" might be stretching it hihi ). But if it was suddenly raised due to needing a 500 post count or it turns out Muff suddenly hates people from Ohio,it's his perogative and I have no right to be pissed. He's offering an invaluable service here and really has created a community that I visit every day, but obviously don't post in every day. And I don't show up just to see what's for sale. Basically, the lamest part of this thread for me is seeing Muff stress about it when he shouldn't have to defend how he runs his site.
rico loverde
the 50 post rule is here to protect everyone involved, get over it already. if you dont like it then go sell your stuff elsewhere. seriously dont ruin it for the people who have created this wonderful place. Get involved, 50 posts is nothing esp if you have an ounce of passion for this stuff. I know Im repeating things said already, just showing my support.

Muff your dedication is amazing and I cant thank you enough for the firends Ive made here and the resources Ive used. I would hate to see the B/S/T section go but at the same time if it becomes a problem for you I understand. This is the first forum Ive ever given a shit about and I find myself getting defensive of it.

The ones that seem to complain about the 50 post rule to me seem only interested in the B/S/T section and that is only a small part of Muffs.

Once again thank you Muffwiggler and thank you to all the admins!!! You guys rule!!!!! SlayerBadger! SlayerBadger! SlayerBadger! SlayerBadger! SlayerBadger! SlayerBadger!
rezzn8r
rico loverde wrote:

Once again thank you Muffwiggler and thank you to all the admins!!! You guys rule!!!!! SlayerBadger! SlayerBadger! SlayerBadger! SlayerBadger! SlayerBadger! SlayerBadger!



+1 we're not worthy
hednoize
MrBiggs wrote:
hednoize wrote:
Speaking of community engagement, I've read many of your posts throughout the forum as both a lurker (pre-registration) and now active member (though not as prolific as yourself). One thread in particular that I read through last week regarding VCAs (which I believe you started) was very instructive. Thank you for that.


If it's me whom you're addressing and it's this thread you're mentioning, then good. Glad it helped someone other than me.


It was indeed you I was addressing, and that was indeed the thread. Thanks again! Guinness ftw!
sandyb
my €0.02

the recent changes which have apparently not worked out were largely at my instigation. it was my suggestion that we (ie muff and myself) do something about b/s/t. muff did the code and happened to be awake when this thread started. but the idea was mine so feel free to moan at me too if you wish. please don't give muff (a person i consider a good friend and who does way more for, and cares more about, this place than you'll ever realise) shit about this.

why do i think b/s/t needs to change? largely through my observations and experiences as an admin here.

i'm honestly fed up chasing new and often not so new wigglers on an almost daily basis because they are seemingly intent on finding ways to circumvent one of the very few rules we actually have. nothing says less to me about being part of, or caring about, a community than not respecting the odd rule that's in place, regardless of whether one agrees with said rule or not. and that makes me feel really sad as i love this place and the community that it represents for me.

people talk about community, yet i hear justifications virtually everyday why people should not be subject to the same rules as everyone else.

"i have good ebay feedback"
"i'm well known in synth circles"
"i'm a member on forum X"
"i didn't know there was a rule" (despite the fact i've written that i tried to post in b/s/t to start with)
"i'm a "famous" musician"

the 50 post rule was initially put in place to try to protect wigglers following some people getting ripped off by a new member and to try to preserve the sense of community that we felt was being diluted at that time by a steady influx of people coming here to buy or sell and with no interest in giving anything else back. the excuses, like those above, that i hear only reinforce my view that it was the right thing to do.

i'd happily leave b/s/t as it is if everyone would actually respect the 50 post rule. it seems there's a significant minority who are not willing to do this though. the solution is really up to all of you, especially those of you who have a low post count here and are directly affected by the rule. put up 50 posts with woah thumbs up applause if you want. if that's your way of contributing to this community then i'd suggest you're mistaken and perhaps you need to spend a bit more time reading and appreciating the time and effort that lots of great wigglers put in here to make it a resource that so many choose to use.



sandy
Reality Checkpoint
Well said Sandy!

Thankyou for all your hard work and patience. It is very much appreciated.
AntManBee
As a new wiggler I thought it wise that I had to make 50 posts before I could use the B/S/T and, perhaps naively, it didn't cross my mind to make (intentionally) irreleveant posts in order to gain access to the B/S/T.

What I particularly appreciate about the B/S/T is the sense of trust due to familiarity from posting on the forum and, if I'd had to wait til 200 posts that would also have been fine - the B/S/T is a privilege, not a right.

I think, given the trial-and-error nature of modular and shifting tastes, that the B/S/T is a natural extension of the trading of information, but it's vital it's kept that way and not allowed to turn into a marketplace.
solitaryzen
Jeez, away from the forum for a couple of days and seems a bit has been going on!

Very sorry to hear about all the stress from the BST forum Muff. That was the forum that drew me here in the first place when I took the plunge to start putting together a big frac system (and what good timing it was wink )
Honestly though, it is everything else here that is the real value of the place. Truly the most amazing electronic music-making resource on the 'net I reckon. Whatever you decide to do with the BST forum, you've got my support 100%.
VortexRanger
For what it's worth:

I have been a modular synth user for about three years.

I discovered Muff's about two months ago.

Muff's is the best thing that has happened to me, synth-wise, in that whole span of time.

My knowledge has effectively quadrupled, I have lost what little nervousness and reservations I had about format-switching, technical specs, etc. etc. gobbledygook, and I've learned to think about synths in ways I had not before. I visit every day and try to insert what (relatively) little wisdom I have wherever I can.

I wish I had discovered Muff's long ago. It's the best-kept secret on the net.

The BST forum has also been helpful, as I've picked up some modules I might not have been able to acquire otherwise. Also, I feel confident that in the future I will be able to move on from any modules that don't work for me. Part of the beauty of this hobby is that everything has a million possible uses, and what doesn't work for one person will for another. Being able to easily pass them on to the next wiggler is good for all involved.

I am pretty new here, but I would remain an active member of this community even if B/S/T were abolished, or if it still existed but I did not have the credentials for it.

But I still like it.

I'd like to add my voice to the chorus of those who trust in the judgment of Muff himself. I can't express how awesome this forum is. Nowhere else even comes close to the wealth of knowledge and humor found here. And the custom emoticons are Rockin' Banana! !!!

Rock on, dude!
drewtoothpaste
What I'm seeing here - and this is my opinion - is not something going on with B/S/T or any rules or standards. It's a problem that happens to nearly any website that begins to get popular.

The problem here is that the flood of new users, who want to buy/sell gear, are all funneling into one person's (Sandy's) inbox, who has to answer everyone round the clock. It happens to me - I handle all the customer service for my business as well as maintain our content-delivery sites and moderate our user community.

Answering the same dumb question over and over makes you mad. You do it 1 time or 10 times, fine, but 100 times and you wonder what you're doing wrong, or you wonder why everyone seems so dumb. I run a few websites and this sort of thing always happens to me. You're having a shit day and someone is particularly nasty about what they say and you want to reach through and pull them up off the keyboard by their ear.

I've found that no matter how many times or places I put rules/information/etc., that the people who read and obey will do so with a simple polite notice, and the folks who don't read or obey will fail to do so regardless of the number of times I tell them. The majority of people who fail to read rules or regulations are simply missing the explanation - they are asking in good faith why they can't have what they want, because they honestly don't understand why. They're kids, or they're drunk, or they just can't read well.

The solution for me has been to draw up form letters for my most common dumb questions, and to respond to users asking the questions by dragging in the form letter. I don't have to spend time or energy typing it out or explaining it, and it's a simple enough process that it doesn't provoke an emotional response. Make the form letter as polite and cheerful as you can, and if someone responds with piss and vinegar, don't reply to 'em, just delete the message so you won't even be tempted to write back and start a fight.

This is what's worked for me. My own community (20k users) is a mess, and a small percentage of the users cause the majority of the problems. But figuring out how to work around the stress points has been a big help to me. There are still days when someone will call me a penis for no good reason, but that's life online, I guess.
Christopher Winkels
Drew's points make a lot of sense.

Muff and Sandy: if you need help, I'd volunteer to be lend a hand. I've done moderating on a couple of websites (both car related, for what it's worth).
MrBiggs
Christopher Winkels wrote:
Drew's points make a lot of sense.


That'e because he's a penis.
vav
So change the postcount limit to 250 posts and reset everyone's postcounts to 1, go have a beer, and stop worrying.

Love ya mike, dont stress so hard. You cant please everyone.
snufkin
hi guys this thread was not about the 50 post limit originally (which in my small experience I'm pretty sure everyone thinks is a good idea)

it was about an experimental change to code that meant that wigglers had to have a certain undisclosed amount of posts to even view B/S/T

I and most of the very early posters only came to find out what was going on as we were confused (not necessarily angry or against the new policy) we did however discus policy later

I personally had around 80 posts at the time but could not look at the forum ( luckily my only transaction there ever had already taken place last week buying my first case)

hope that clears it up for people meh


PS whatever happens to B/S/T ill still be here hanging out in video synth and euro forum building my knowledge and sharing anything I think might help

Thanks for the amazing site Muffwiggler we're not worthy
daverj
I can understand people getting upset if they lose access to a subforum for no apparent reason, and with no announcement being made explaining it. It's helpful if there is an announcement about changes that effect how things work. I'm sure that was just an oversight in this case.

A simple way to enhance the 50 post rule, and to block people that try to post 50 crap posts in a day, is to set two rules. 50 posts and be a member for 2 months. That'll stop people trying to post 50 smiley posts in a day or two, and give them time to soak in the community. If a change like that is made though I would suggest grandfathering in anybody that currently has 50 posts. Plus I would use it only to restrict selling, not buying. Even though it's possible for a buyer to screw a seller, it's not as easy or common as the other way around. And newbies do need to buy.

Just my opinion.
Babaluma
daverj wrote:
I can understand people getting upset if they lose access to a subforum for no apparent reason, and with no announcement being made explaining it. It's helpful if there is an announcement about changes that effect how things work. I'm sure that was just an oversight in this case.

A simple way to enhance the 50 post rule, and to block people that try to post 50 crap posts in a day, is to set two rules. 50 posts and be a member for 2 months. That'll stop people trying to post 50 smiley posts in a day or two, and give them time to soak in the community. If a change like that is made though I would suggest grandfathering in anybody that currently has 50 posts. Plus I would use it only to restrict selling, not buying. Even though it's possible for a buyer to screw a seller, it's not as easy or common as the other way around. And newbies do need to buy.

Just my opinion.


That's a GREAT idea!

I'm also fully in love with your term of "grandfathering [someone or something] in". Gonna have to start using that one!
VortexRanger
Quote:
I'm also fully in love with your term of "grandfathering [someone or something] in". Gonna have to start using that one!


I've always loved this term and decided to look it up just now, turns out it is exclusive to the US and actually was originally something of an attempt to extend limits imposed by slavery!! woah Not cool! Glad it has lost its connotations over time.
Babaluma
Had never heard it before (being from the UK), but I like the sound of it!
leitner6
So, let me see if I have this right. A poster with hundreds of posts screws somebody, now everyone wants to ban low posters even from seeing the b/s/t forum?
sandyb
leitner6 wrote:
So, let me see if I have this right. A poster with hundreds of posts screws somebody, now everyone wants to ban low posters even from seeing the b/s/t forum?


no - you are totally wrong.
i'd suggest reading my previous post in this thread again.
whitewulfe
daverj wrote:
A simple way to enhance the 50 post rule, and to block people that try to post 50 crap posts in a day, is to set two rules. 50 posts and be a member for 2 months. That'll stop people trying to post 50 smiley posts in a day or two, and give them time to soak in the community. If a change like that is made though I would suggest grandfathering in anybody that currently has 50 posts. Plus I would use it only to restrict selling, not buying. Even though it's possible for a buyer to screw a seller, it's not as easy or common as the other way around. And newbies do need to buy.

Just my opinion.


I'll definitely second this suggestion!
Kent
daverj wrote:
I can understand people getting upset if they lose access to a subforum for no apparent reason, and with no announcement being made explaining it. It's helpful if there is an announcement about changes that effect how things work. I'm sure that was just an oversight in this case.

A simple way to enhance the 50 post rule, and to block people that try to post 50 crap posts in a day, is to set two rules. 50 posts and be a member for 2 months. That'll stop people trying to post 50 smiley posts in a day or two, and give them time to soak in the community. If a change like that is made though I would suggest grandfathering in anybody that currently has 50 posts. Plus I would use it only to restrict selling, not buying. Even though it's possible for a buyer to screw a seller, it's not as easy or common as the other way around. And newbies do need to buy.

Just my opinion.


theabsent
[quote="Muff Wiggler]Right now the future looks like no more BST forum and no more donate button.[/quote]

I want both! I use both! Bothbothboth!
infradead
Babaluma wrote:
daverj wrote:
I can understand people getting upset if they lose access to a subforum for no apparent reason, and with no announcement being made explaining it. It's helpful if there is an announcement about changes that effect how things work. I'm sure that was just an oversight in this case.

A simple way to enhance the 50 post rule, and to block people that try to post 50 crap posts in a day, is to set two rules. 50 posts and be a member for 2 months. That'll stop people trying to post 50 smiley posts in a day or two, and give them time to soak in the community. If a change like that is made though I would suggest grandfathering in anybody that currently has 50 posts. Plus I would use it only to restrict selling, not buying. Even though it's possible for a buyer to screw a seller, it's not as easy or common as the other way around. And newbies do need to buy.

Just my opinion.


That's a GREAT idea!

I'm also fully in love with your term of "grandfathering [someone or something] in". Gonna have to start using that one!


https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Jim_Crow_laws
poppinger
MrBiggs wrote:
Who the hell are these people that register and then don't participate?


I guess I could qualify here as I've been around a couple years and don't have near the amount of posts that some people do. Personally, I'm content just to learn and be quiet, as I feel like often I'd add more noise than signal.

I check the forum multiple times daily, but only rarely feel compelled to post unless it's a topic I feel like I can contribute useful information on.

Some people just want to be lurkers -- they don't necessarily participate in the same way that you might.

And even though my posts are few and far between, I still feel like I belong to this community. smile


(And incidentally this isn't meant to be an argument about anything regarding B/S/T, just more about what might motivate people like myself that don't necessarily post a lot.)
daverj
VortexRanger wrote:
Quote:
I'm also fully in love with your term of "grandfathering [someone or something] in". Gonna have to start using that one!


I've always loved this term and decided to look it up just now, turns out it is exclusive to the US and actually was originally something of an attempt to extend limits imposed by slavery!! woah Not cool! Glad it has lost its connotations over time.


I wasn't aware of it's origins either. It's meaning is still the same. It's just the subject matter that it was originally applied to that taints it. It basically means: apply the new rules to new people, and leave the old timers alone.
Synthasonic
Add me to the list of folks who had items for sale on the forum and can no longer view them. I wonder if I'm allowed to bypass some of this being that I am a modular manufacturer, albeit a very small one? Probably not!

I will contribute something useful to this whole discussion, however, which is that if you're selling analog stuff, the Analogue Heaven list http://machines.hyperreal.org/Analogue-Heaven/ has proven itself to be very useful for selling stuff. I've sold well over $2000 worth of gear in the past two weeks there. Def worth checking out if you're looking for an alternative.

Gearslutz.com also has a FS forum, although I've had far less luck there. It seems to attract more recording types than synthy types... YMMV
Muff Wiggler
That doesn't sound right Synthasonic - everyone can "see" everything now. The only limit is that users with less than 100 posts cannot start new for sale threads.

Look in the "legacy" B-S-T forum, I'm sure you'll still be able to see your old thread.
Synthasonic
Muff Wiggler wrote:
That doesn't sound right Synthasonic - everyone can "see" everything now. The only limit is that users with less than 100 posts cannot start new for sale threads.

Look in the "legacy" B-S-T forum, I'm sure you'll still be able to see your old thread.


Oops. I was mistaken. I can indeed see my old FS posts.
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