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wretch /keyboard/tune conversation
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tiny333
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Joined: 08 Sep 2007
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 27, 2007 1:30 pm    Post subject: wretch /keyboard/tune conversation Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

dear david

please could i ask you a wretch question?

i have one on the way but am new to proper synths....

i would like to know how you tune each individual pitch?


and what i might need to do that


thank you for your great review i was glad to hear that the wretch was able to be warm and gentle as well



The best way is with some kind of keyboard controller with a potentiometer for each key. Eric Barbour wrote this schematic. http://www.cgs.synth.net/tube/controller.html That one would be best with two pots per key (one for each oscillator). Any analog sequencer allows individual pitch tuning. If you like making tracks from repeating sequences then any 16 step sequencer with at least two rows of pots will work. One row is fine if you only need the oscillators to track together when synchronized. The demos by The Wretch demonstrate the dissonant effect of unsynchronized oscillators. If normal step sequencers do not offer enough control, there are some voltage controlled sequencers that allow you to disable the clock and select steps arbitrarily. The Modcan 54B and the soon-to-be-released Plan B Milton offer this function. Of course, that only covers 16 pitches. The perfect solution is the Doepfer touch-keyboard sequencer project that has been in the development stage for years. The keyboards (normal and touch plate) are being developed now, so maybe the controller section will follow soon. The preliminary information suggests that it would have 25 steps and be MIDI-controlled. That will cover 2 octaves, which is about the range of each of the three ranges of the S-1000.

What I've been doing before that comes out is to record one event at a time with the Modcan CV Recorder. I'll take 2 (or 3, for the TM-3) manually adjusted voltages from my modular, plus an envelope or gate and start recording at a slow rate. I'll stop recording when the note is over. You can imagine that this is a very laborious process. Unless you devise some kind of click track, it won't be very rhythmically accurate. I perform these sequences by adjusting the loop points, playback speed and direction. Ideally, I would use a combination of the Doepfer sequencer and the CV Recorder.




blimey ok thanks

lol

yeah i have seen erics keyboard schematic but am not smart enough to build one and dont know if i could afford to pay someone who is !!!

seems great tho keyboard pitch control and GO !!

ok thank you very much for your reply i will do as you say ....or will try to .. are you saying i could record the correct notes on the cv recorder and then trigger them?

the 54b looks great but costs a bomb !!! ... but i plan to go in a modan/cynthia direction so...(.i will check if the oberkon3 will do the same....)

i am in the uk so its cheaper over here...16 pitches is ok for me.....



Ah, yes, I forget that I have an online name. I think the Oberkorn will work like that. It transforms the MIDI into a a set of logic signals that can be patched into the step selection circuit. It doesn't seem like you can disable the clock like with the Modcan and Plan B, so I guess you would have to obtain a note-on gate to patch to the clock in of the Oberkorn. So, a very basic MIDI-to-CV converter or a keyboard that outputs CV/gate and MIDI will be needed. Otherwise, the sequence will run at the clock speed and you'll only be setting the starting point of the sequence. If that will work, that's a good, affordable solution.

lol small world...

sorry to bother you again with the same question...i didnt fully understand your oberkorn answer but it sounded like it might not work;''''''

if i got a 54b and disabled the clock i could then trigger each step from a keyboard somehow??

sorry to go on but its an expensive and important point (for me at least)


I think the 54B will track a V/oct response. It has an asynchronous mode, which allows you to only switch steps when that particular threshold voltage is reached, rather than responding to the clock. In synchronous mode, the control voltage will be combined with the normal stepping function of the sequencer, or without applying any control voltage, it will behave like any 16 step sequencer. You would need to have a separate V/oct control signal to select the step, as well as a gate signal to send to the Wretch. Add to that the power supply and case or rack mount kit and ordering from another country and waiting for it to be made. That is tremendously expensive.

The Oberkorn just needs a MIDI input and a gate signal. That gate signal will will serve as the clock, only advancing the sequence( to the step of your choice) when you press a key. You will also want to send that same gate signal to the trigger in of the Wretch. As a keyboard controller it is functionally identical to the 54B, but can be controlled from any MIDI controller. You can get a very cheap MIDI-to CV converter for the gate signal. The Modcan can do a lot of crazy things with various CV inputs, but for the money, I'd look into the Oberkorn.



how many loop points can you set and can each key trigger them?

naaaa cant see it i guess the 54b is the only answer..it was very intresting that you told me i could set the pitch and then trigger them from a key...thanks....


?

thank you david alot to think about i will speak to the manufacturers.......and check out how much to have erics keyboard made....

i'll keep you posted...'




I've thought about hiring someone to build that thing, but I would want several rows of potentiometers. I don't know if that would be a problem. It seems like it would be especially easy to use the MIDI-to-relay converter instead of chopping up an old keyboard.

??


Just like an analog sequencer with three or four rows, you can send them to different oscillators, or to filters or amplifiers or any other CV input. I want to be able to tune separate scales for the different ranges of the Wretch. For one thing, when you switch range on the Wretch, the pitch is offset a bit. It's easy enough to re-tune or to route the CV through an offset module. However, I'm not necessarily going to be tuning the Wretch to equal temperament. I might have one oscillator modulating the other. I might want to detune the different octaves in different ways. I may want specific delay times or mix levels for certain notes. Having several voltages available for each note suits my needs. Two or three should be a huge improvement over the normal Hz/V scaling.

I'm pretty sure that I've written that same response on a few forums. I doubt anything could persuade Eric to make a product with no tubes in it. Maybe one BN6 to keep everyone happy?! You may be able to get it custom made, but custom work is very expensive.




hey eric your the man we love you

any chance??

did i say we love you .....

i have waited years to be able to get some of your wonderful products..

errr

xxxxx


twisted twisted twisted twisted twisted
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zerosum
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Joined: 25 Nov 2006
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 29, 2007 8:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Send me $3000 so that I can buy,record and evaluate some metasonix products! 8)
Right now all I have are some unfinished demos that are about to become final.
8)
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tiny333
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 30, 2007 10:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

well the first guy i asked to build one said he was to busy to get involved :(

bummer :( :(
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thermionicjunky
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Joined: 03 May 2007
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 06, 2007 4:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Tiny, i don't know if you own a keyboard already, but if you were to obtain the Oberkorn, there is a Doepfer keyboard that would complement it well. It is the first component of the touch keyboard/sequencer project that is in line to be released this fall. It is a 4-octave normal keyboard that will output MIDI, which you can use to select the stage of the Oberkorn, as well as CV and gate. I believe that note C3 will select stage one, and each chromatic step up will select the next step. The gate can be used to clock the Oberkorn, so it will function like an ordinary keyboard. There should also be 2 and 3-octave versions that will need customer supplied housing. These are both European products, so you should have less trouble obtaining them.
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tiny333
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 06, 2007 7:50 pm    Post subject: ffs Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

thanks 4 the heads up
who would have thought it was so hard to make a few unique bleeps??!!

i have another chap might make keyboard but do not know price as yet
will let u know

still waiting 4 wretch..5 weeks andcounting

on the plus side logic 8 rocxks

xxxxx twisted twisted twisted twisted
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thermionicjunky
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 07, 2007 3:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Of course, it isn't entirely necessary to go to such extremes. There are plenty of people who are satisfied with MIDI conversion. I just happen to be a monstrous control freak who doesn't even like using MIDI to control a normal V/octave VCO. I would sit here plunking out little melodies and bass lines thinking, "What the fuck did I start doing this for? This isn't the thrill I got from squeezing space music out of a Pro-one with a non-functional keyboard. It was the ecstasy of hearing things that I couldn't get from trumpets and pianos and voices. It was the complex mass of modulation sidebands and noise and phase cancellation that I could never write on paper. It was what had me chopping up tape for hours and running tape loops around my trumpet bell which excited my delay and flanger into obscene self-oscillation!"

It can seem like overkill to build these incredibly complex control systems, but they don't need to be used exclusively for equally tempered pitch control. Such specific, user-defined controls are useful for any voltage-controlled device. If an oscillator refuses to behave according to an industry standard, one is forced to dump the oscillator or the standard. I have spent endless hours exploring the merits of the oscillator, yet I can't find a single use for the industry standard.
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tiny333
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 07, 2007 5:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

sok i understand

i fuggin hate midi

never use it

twisted twisted
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zerosum
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 08, 2007 4:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

thermionicjunky wrote:
Of course, it isn't entirely necessary to go to such extremes. There are plenty of people who are satisfied with MIDI conversion. I just happen to be a monstrous control freak who doesn't even like using MIDI to control a normal V/octave VCO. I would sit here plunking out little melodies and bass lines thinking, "What the fuck did I start doing this for? This isn't the thrill I got from squeezing space music out of a Pro-one with a non-functional keyboard. It was the ecstasy of hearing things that I couldn't get from trumpets and pianos and voices. It was the complex mass of modulation sidebands and noise and phase cancellation that I could never write on paper. It was what had me chopping up tape for hours and running tape loops around my trumpet bell which excited my delay and flanger into obscene self-oscillation!"

It can seem like overkill to build these incredibly complex control systems, but they don't need to be used exclusively for equally tempered pitch control. Such specific, user-defined controls are useful for any voltage-controlled device. If an oscillator refuses to behave according to an industry standard, one is forced to dump the oscillator or the standard. I have spent endless hours exploring the merits of the oscillator, yet I can't find a single use for the industry standard.


Great post!
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thermionicjunky
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 08, 2007 6:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Thanks for the enthusiasm. It wakes me up when my heart stops beating at work! Of course, let's not forget continuous controllers. There is the often discussed ribbon controller, but hidden in my music there is also some theremin-controlled Wretch Machine. Maybe I'll include an obvious example in a future post.
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5inusoid
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 08, 2007 10:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Shit, why do you guys want so much control??

Don't kid yourselves, the Wretch Machine controls YOU, not vice versa.

Having said that, I was having a blast at Mikes saturday using his new Fat controller to sequence it.

Wretch Machine is cranky, its un cooperative. This is its beauty. Its not going to do what YOU want, at least not easily. But you won't get anything else to sound like it.
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