MUFF WIGGLER
you'll find what you're looking for, life's like that
 
 FAQ & Terms Of UseFAQ & Terms Of Use   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   RegisterRegister 
 ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 
Information
Please join us at NAMM! MW will be hosting a booth and we would like to invite all manufacturers small and large to join us. We are delighted to support this scene and help provide booth space for anyone who wants to show off their gear and partake in the company of the best group of folks on earth. Please email [email protected] to discuss details. Hope to see you there!



MW Radio

Search for at
MUFF WIGGLER Advanced Search
And yet another euro player.
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next [all]
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    MUFF WIGGLER Forum Index -> Alyseum
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author And yet another euro player.
JJ
Veteran Wiggler


Joined: 08 May 2010
Last Visit: 20 Nov 2014

Posts: 626
Location: Turku, Finland, EU

PostPosted: Sat Jul 30, 2011 3:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

There is an very informative discussion about CopperLan on KVR:
http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=296783&start=0&postdays= 0&postorder=asc&highlight=

_________________
Konekonekone
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Ankh
Common Wiggler


Joined: 29 Apr 2010
Last Visit: 07 Sep 2014

Posts: 233
Location: Vaasa, Finland

PostPosted: Sat Jul 30, 2011 4:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

The product descriptions are bordering on too technical. So can this be used with say Silent Way, or is all it does convert MIDI to CV through some virtual MIDI port? Or is it something else entirely? seriously, i just don't get it
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
poladark
Wiggling with Experience


Joined: 27 Jul 2011
Last Visit: 20 Nov 2014

Posts: 330
Location: Stockholm, Sweden

PostPosted: Sat Jul 30, 2011 4:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I love the idea...

But... from a purely technical standpoint.... There doesn't seem to be a public document specifying the protocol - yet they claim that the CopperLAN protocol is "open". Not using IP seems like a serious disadvantage. How are you supposed to use this with existing network infrastructure? Can i use my enterprise class Cisco switches and routers with CopperLAN? What if i want to collaborate with a person downstairs or in a different office? The advantage of using Ethernet with CopperLAN is not so obvious if I'd have to design a physically separate network to use it.

If i wanted to invest in CopperLAN audio infrastructure it would need to be a technically sound solution.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
JJ
Veteran Wiggler


Joined: 08 May 2010
Last Visit: 20 Nov 2014

Posts: 626
Location: Turku, Finland, EU

PostPosted: Sat Jul 30, 2011 8:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Download the copperlan software and try, it's free.
_________________
Konekonekone
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
jln
Common Wiggler


Joined: 26 Apr 2010
Last Visit: 30 Aug 2014

Posts: 179

PostPosted: Sun Jul 31, 2011 3:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I must say I am really excited by this product. I saw a demo (including a midi->CV prototype) quite some time ago during a conference at Ircam in Paris and it was veeeery impressive.

asterisk wrote:

also, would be interested to see if this module would work with max/msp.


This will work with Max using Midi ports.

Actually, a CopperLan external was even developed within the Plateforme Virage. THIS is the real deal as it not only allows send/receiving values but also building and querying the network of CopperLan devices, etc. The bad news is although the external is still available from here, it is currently broken since some changes in the CopperLan SDK.

I think it is also worth mentioning that there has been some discussion/desire to develop or port such an external as a plugin for the upcoming 0.6 implementation of Jamoma Modular in Max. Just hope some dev will jump in to make it happen soon.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
jupiter8
Wiggling with Experience


Joined: 31 Jul 2010
Last Visit: 26 Nov 2014

Posts: 269

PostPosted: Sun Jul 31, 2011 3:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I've been reading a lot about this the last few days and it is really interesting.
I'm a bit miffed by yet another standard but this one seem to be gaining ground really quick. There's already 2 standards for midi over ethernet but i guess you need something new to finally break away from midi. But then there's OSC but that doesn't seem to gain any momentum for the moment.

I haven't really tried it but i believe you can bridge from say rtpmidi to CopperLan quite easily if you want to. To the computer they're just midi ports like any other.

And now answer time:
poladark wrote:
I love the idea...

But... from a purely technical standpoint.... There doesn't seem to be a public document specifying the protocol - yet they claim that the CopperLAN protocol is "open".

You can apply for a freeware yada yada yada and you get access to the format. I did yesterday but haven't really looked into it yet.
poladark wrote:
Not using IP seems like a serious disadvantage. How are you supposed to use this with existing network infrastructure? Can i use my enterprise class Cisco switches and routers with CopperLAN? What if i want to collaborate with a person downstairs or in a different office? The advantage of using Ethernet with CopperLAN is not so obvious if I'd have to design a physically separate network to use it.

If i wanted to invest in CopperLAN audio infrastructure it would need to be a technically sound solution.

You need not worry. It can coexist on an existing network so no problems there.
asterisk wrote:
i wonder if this thing can do more discrete CV steps in copperlan mode than in midi mode?

That is kinda the point behind CopperLan so i'd be really surprised if that is not the case.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
poladark
Wiggling with Experience


Joined: 27 Jul 2011
Last Visit: 20 Nov 2014

Posts: 330
Location: Stockholm, Sweden

PostPosted: Sun Jul 31, 2011 4:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

jupiter8 wrote:
You can apply for a freeware yada yada yada and you get access to the format. I did yesterday but haven't really looked into it yet.

Registered for that now as well. Doesn't appear to be any "Non-Disclosure Agreement" to sign, thankfully. If the network protocol is sound, I'd love to give programming this a go. MIDI never was very flexible :(

jupiter8 wrote:
It can coexist on an existing network so no problems there.

Maybe I'm overthinking this. Coexisting on an existing network is great - but routing is done on the IP level. If there is no IP protocol, then the protocol will get as far as a switch, but it won't get past a router. If that is the case however, something like VLAN tagging might work for bigger networks... possibly.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Endosine
Tamahagane Modular


Joined: 07 Oct 2009
Last Visit: 19 Nov 2014

Posts: 268
Location: Shanghai

PostPosted: Sun Jul 31, 2011 6:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

poladark wrote:

Maybe I'm overthinking this. Coexisting on an existing network is great - but routing is done on the IP level. If there is no IP protocol, then the protocol will get as far as a switch, but it won't get past a router. If that is the case however, something like VLAN tagging might work for bigger networks... possibly.


Much like TCP or UDP can both run at the same time on a network, so can CopperLAN. They wrote their own protocol to get the great user experience of ZeroConf (automatic device discovery) and extremely low latentcy. If they had built it using TCP/IP the latency would be too high/irregular for realtime data. You probably wouldn't see CopperLAN beyond a router unless the router was aware of the protocol and passed it on. There is a large broadcast aspect to the protocol so I don't think having the router pass it would generally be a good thing. It's not intended to be a "over the internet" thing, just a local area tool. The Jazzmutant Lemur and some other OSC devices often routed over UDP to get away from the overhead of TCP and help things be closer to realtime. The tradeoff there was UDP has no handling of "lost packets" or handshaking, so if you are on a busy network UDP can have troubles.

/past life as an IT guy

As a synth nerd the new module looks really interesting...

_________________
http://www.endosine.com
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
no-fi
....


Joined: 08 Feb 2011
Last Visit: 21 Nov 2014

Posts: 669
Location: Australia - land of the greedy bogan peasant idiot.

PostPosted: Sun Jul 31, 2011 6:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I like this - I have a spare ethernet port on my PC, but no spare adat lightpipe... keen to hear about how well it works and see the results of timing tests
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
mateo
Ultra Wiggler


Joined: 06 Oct 2009
Last Visit: 25 Nov 2014

Posts: 846
Location: Montreal

PostPosted: Sun Jul 31, 2011 10:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

It's worth looking at the manual for more info:

http://www.alyseum.com/downloads/ALYSEUM_MS-812%20_Eurorack__User's%20 Manual%20no%20SW_V1.3_EN.pdf
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
poladark
Wiggling with Experience


Joined: 27 Jul 2011
Last Visit: 20 Nov 2014

Posts: 330
Location: Stockholm, Sweden

PostPosted: Sun Jul 31, 2011 12:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

It's starting to feel like I'm playing the Devil's Advocate here. I really do think it's a cool technology but there are some things that make me doubt the flexibility of this solution.

Endosine wrote:
If they had built it using TCP/IP the latency would be too high/irregular for realtime data.
This is simply not true in the context of CopperLAN. In the financial trading sector people are counting nanoseconds and they still rely on IP. IP, UDP and TCP aren't without problems when you need truly real time and low latency network performance - but then it probably doesn't make sense to use Ethernet to begin with. The sort of data rates and latency and sensitivity to jitter that we're talking about for typical CopperLAN usage doesn't even come close to maximizing the potential of IP.

So it just doesn't make sense...

I'm starting to suspect that what CopperLAN wants to do is to lock their users into an isolated platform so that the users will be forced to purchase CopperLAN-licenced technologies. This might not actually be a bad thing in itself but if the protocol is not IP-based (like ISCSI for instance) i think they're in for a bumpy ride.

Endosine wrote:
There is a large broadcast aspect to the protocol so I don't think having the router pass it would generally be a good thing. It's not intended to be a "over the Internet" thing, just a local area tool. The Jazzmutant Lemur and some other OSC devices often routed over UDP to get away from the overhead of TCP and help things be closer to real-time. The trade-off there was UDP has no handling of "lost packets" or handshaking, so if you are on a busy network UDP can have troubles.
Well the "problem with UDP" there is how the network infrastructure is set up. Set it up properly, and this will not be a problem. If you are overloading your network infrastructure and as a consequence are suffering from degraded performance, then you are doing something wrong.

I agree that sending data over the Internet is a bad idea if you care about the shape of your data once it's received. Still, why limit yourself?

Endosine wrote:
/past life as an IT guy
/current life as an IT guy who has to spend too much time thinking about this sort of bothersome stuff all day long :(
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Endosine
Tamahagane Modular


Joined: 07 Oct 2009
Last Visit: 19 Nov 2014

Posts: 268
Location: Shanghai

PostPosted: Mon Aug 01, 2011 3:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

It's possible they built it to lock people in, I don't really know their motives. I met with them at Musik Messe and I was asking them why this instead of OSC. They brought up the usual, no common definitions thing, but they didn't totally convince me.

With HFT they do have sub milisecond response times but they are also on fiber networks with high end modern routers and switches that are co-located with the data providers. A far cry from your average musician's home network with a $50 Linksys. Opposite ends of the network spectrum really. TCP/IP has a fair overhead and in my testing I've found going to UDP does improve the timing when you are relying on the network to deliver clock.

Someone is always coming up with something new, one of the great things about the modern age. At the end of the day if the Alyseum / CopperLAN setup solves someones problems it's a good thing to have them in the market.

The funniest part of the whole thing was the look on the Alyseum guys face when I asked him if he knew about Muff Wigglers...

_________________
http://www.endosine.com
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
daverj
Vintage Video Wiggler


Joined: 19 Jun 2009
Last Visit: 25 Nov 2014

Posts: 7478

PostPosted: Mon Aug 01, 2011 2:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Even if it's not what everybody fantasizes it could be, it still:

- uses a transformer isolated interface that can drive a signal across any room or stage without introducing any ground loops or hum

- uses a high speed interface that is orders of magnitude faster than midi

- uses a physical interface built into pretty much any computer made in the past 5 years, and many even older

_________________
Dave Jones Design | Jones Video
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
poladark
Wiggling with Experience


Joined: 27 Jul 2011
Last Visit: 20 Nov 2014

Posts: 330
Location: Stockholm, Sweden

PostPosted: Mon Aug 01, 2011 4:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I think it's cool hardware. That AL-88 MIDI interface/patchbay/merge looks nice as well.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
mono-poly
Le Cheff


Joined: 21 Nov 2008
Last Visit: 25 Nov 2014

Posts: 5556
Location: Rotterdam, Netherlands

PostPosted: Mon Aug 01, 2011 5:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Seems interesting.
_________________
The farad is the captain of my print.

http://www.mono-poly.nl
http://www.noodlebar.org

WTB blue lantern purple vco
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    MUFF WIGGLER Forum Index -> Alyseum All times are GMT - 5 Hours
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next [all]
Page 2 of 4

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You cannot download files in this forum


Mark all forums read
Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group