Muff's Modules & More

Parallel Worlds

well, i am still getting pissed of when i patch my 200e and stumbling upon this irritating limitation...

is it totally safe to use my mini-jack to banana converter panels (custom, makenoise, metalbox, etc...) to convert bananas to minijacks (and vice-versa) and to finally connect everything into everything in my buchla?

just want to verify this first...

thanks in advance for your help.

best regards, smile

Bakis.

Parallel Worlds · Posted: Thu Sep 22, 2011 6:16 pm Post subject:

any help on this?

Lyonel · Posted: Fri Sep 23, 2011 3:23 am Post subject:

Converting everything to everything is perhaps a bit presumptuous, but It works as I need it here.

Parallel Worlds · Posted: Fri Sep 23, 2011 3:25 am Post subject:

Lyonel · Posted: Fri Sep 23, 2011 3:40 am Post subject:

momo · Posted: Fri Sep 23, 2011 5:15 am Post subject:

Tobor

Parallel Worlds

nrdvrgr · Posted: Fri Sep 23, 2011 6:26 am Post subject:

You are not supposed to stick it in every hole, OK?

hihi

Parallel Worlds · Posted: Fri Sep 23, 2011 6:30 am Post subject:

nrdvrgr · Posted: Fri Sep 23, 2011 6:38 am Post subject:

I was of course not thinking about modulars, hahaha... it´s friday, OK? wink

Tobor

Lyonel · Posted: Fri Sep 23, 2011 7:02 am Post subject:

There are just a few things that I sometimes want to convert, 259e FM in is one of them.

Kent

While I agree with what I believe is your core point here -that Bakis needs to further explore the design intent of the system- I don't think that it is necessary (although perhaps instructive) to defend your own approach to the system or to infer that Bakis's approach might be improper.

If he want's to patch all kinds of things around the system, then why not explore that approach? All of the systems with which he has experimented and composed in the past do not follow the unique Buchla system. It is only natural that one would try to approach something different by drawing upon one's past. This is not so different from learning another language. However, like learning a language it is often counter-productive to attempt to understand a new thing by conforming it to prior learned patterns.

Maybe I'm reading something into your response that isn't there. It seemed a bit humiliating. It seems as if you took his "half" comment too literally, and then flipped that against him, instead of trying to start from his point of view and then move him closer to knowledge.

Fuck, I'm typing way too much about this!

franzschuier · Posted: Fri Sep 23, 2011 7:40 am Post subject:

If you are coming from serge land it is quite a different exp. regardless if you understand the differences in signal/curve types or not.

Coming from serge and quite new to buchla I like both approaches.

While the serge lets me explore in an undesigned (greek orgy) fashion, the buchla demands a more systematic/academic approach. Only when I accepted this difference I could appreciate the buchla.

Both approaches lead to different results - which is a good thing - imho

Parallel Worlds · Posted: Fri Sep 23, 2011 7:57 am Post subject:

guys,

i know the difference between Exp and linear amplifiers and know my modular programming. i use my modulars for many many things in my albums for many years...

STILL, depsite what you say about Buchla philosophy, etc, etc... the dual nature of their sockets is limiting.

simple as that.

i like my Buchla 200e. but if it was like the Serge, then i would like it even more.

to me, the same programming and planning (in my head) that the Serge needs is also needed for the Buchla.
actually, programming the Buchla is much easier than the Serge.
in the Serge you really need to patch a lot of things in order to achieve things that the Buchla gives to the user ready-made.

so, in simple words: serge is deeper in programming options....

anyway, all i wanted to say is that i find the dual socket thing of the Buchla limiting.... i can give a million examples why a single nature of sockets would be more freeing for the user/musician.

but, really, just a simple question of mine (regarding safety of the socket conversion) has grown into a debate and, correct me if i'm wrong, a rather useless one.... seriously, i just don't get it

Parallel Worlds · Posted: Fri Sep 23, 2011 8:13 am Post subject:

...and yes, Buchla differentiates audio signals from control paths, they have different voltage levels, etc, etc, etc...

banana's for control/gates, minijacks for audio, blah, blah, blah...

STILL, this is limiting. (compared to any system that does not differentiate)

having said that, i like my 200e (and i know how to program it, i can assure you.)
of course, i am using it already for my next album...

Lyonel · Posted: Fri Sep 23, 2011 8:32 am Post subject:

momo · Posted: Fri Sep 23, 2011 8:35 am Post subject:

You're not the only person to see the differentiation as limiting, and I think it's totally fair enough to feel that way. Just that apparently many Buchla users find the differentiation makes Don's instruments uniquely powerful. YMMV!

Parallel Worlds · Posted: Fri Sep 23, 2011 8:45 am Post subject:

Parallel Worlds · Posted: Fri Sep 23, 2011 8:50 am Post subject:

and feedback patching an output (or more!) from the cv matrix mixer section of the 210e into an audio input of the audio matrix mixer section of 210e, and, and, and...
(although i have to try this, since i do not know if the audio inputs of the 210e audio matrix mixer are ac-coupled or not....)

...brainstorm....

Parallel Worlds · Posted: Fri Sep 23, 2011 8:58 am Post subject:

have to point out that, in some outs/inputs, there are both banana and minijacks sockets, so in these cases the 'problem' is non-existent of course...

Lyonel · Posted: Fri Sep 23, 2011 9:11 am Post subject:

Oh oh, that's a lot of things I never thought of. thanks.

Tobor · Posted: Fri Sep 23, 2011 9:24 am Post subject:

this limiting thing is absurd...
max/MSP works the same way and it can't be called limited.
Plugging anything anywhere is not an absolute plus.

Kent · Posted: Fri Sep 23, 2011 10:09 am Post subject:

Ever notice that the banana output on the 259e's Mod out is hotter than the Tini-jax output?

I assume that this is due to the banana output being biased around +5V. I ain't never examined it though.

BugBrand · Posted: Fri Sep 23, 2011 10:25 am Post subject:

I don't know much (umm, almost nothing!!) about the ins&outs of Buchla, but my understanding is that the audio signals on the tinijax are 1v (maybe 2v?) swing about ground whereas control voltages will be much larger ?10V swings and, I think, these are unipolar (0 to +10). That, in my opinion, places some limitations on cross patching - both due to amplitude and offset. I daresay that any modules with dual inputs (Banana & jack) would have slightly different input circuitry because of the signal differences.

A hunch says that you won't damage anything cross patching, but I really have no clue!

Wouldn't a ModuleModule be possible with active conversion circuitry?
- ie jack to banana amplifies and offsets // banana to jack attenuates and offsets?

dougcl · Posted: Fri Sep 23, 2011 10:47 am Post subject:

It makes sense to have a banana to 1/8 adapter for the 259e FM input for mem-skew modulation. That's about it. In general, a well designed system has just enough flexibility and no more. Constraints are good. The separation of signals has many advantages, most notably in my opinion, the ease with which one can decipher the patch, working backwards from effects to causes. This is really important when using the preset manager. So while the separation is a constraint, it opens up more possibilities by making the system easier to work with. The system is flexible enough to lead to dizzying complexity as is, especially when you engage the preset manager to work across patches. It takes the patch interface into 3D. Hard to imagine complaining about limitations under the circumstances. But to each his own, and fortunately there are other options.

Parallel Worlds · Posted: Fri Sep 23, 2011 1:09 pm Post subject:

Parallel Worlds · Posted: Fri Sep 23, 2011 1:15 pm Post subject:

Parallel Worlds · Posted: Fri Sep 23, 2011 1:25 pm Post subject:

BUT, there is a big BUT:

maybe, these signal differences (regarding voltage levels and offsets) between the banana I/O's and Tinyjax I/O's, do not really allow for nice results, when making these cross-patching examples i mentioned before.

then, indeed, cross-patching will not make much sense... (and this will be a pity because it will be a limitation...)

but, one has to try it first to judge....

and i repeat: the Buchla 200e is a great modular with fantastic sound and capabilities. i never said it isn't. i am just wishing for more patching freedom for the end user....

Parallel Worlds · Posted: Fri Sep 23, 2011 1:31 pm Post subject:

BUT, you maybe can bypass these problems, with a bit of voltage attenuation and offseting....

i recently made a patch, using audio from my two 254v (and envelops from my 281e) and gating the two 254v's, using one serge vca and one euro analogue systems vca. (i wish i had a second 292e, but i do not now...)

as you all know, AS vca is all minijacks and Serge vca is all banana's.

guess what: after converting between the sockets (using a custom banana to minijack panel i have in my Serge, which is passive!) everything worked fine! only a bit of attenuation was needed to tame the voltage output from the 281e AD, when it was controlling the serge vca that needs less voltage to fully open.

so, it worked and it sounded awesome.

so, probably, these voltage differences in the banana's and tinyjax sockets of the Buchla are not SO important (and difficult to overcome) after all...

Parallel Worlds · Posted: Fri Sep 23, 2011 3:27 pm Post subject:

phew...
back from the 200e...

so, i tested: audio rate modulation of panning in 206e, sounds just fine!

audio rate running AD's (from 281e) as input to frequency shifter and ringmod also sound very nice and special!

cross-patching gives nice results indeed! thumbs up

the results: one more nice rhythmic scape recorded for my next album...

cross-patch away! Guinness ftw!

(with attenuation needed in some points...)

Parallel Worlds · Posted: Fri Sep 23, 2011 3:44 pm Post subject:

regarding the offset that the buchla banana outs may have:

my tests just showed that there is no offset at all.
in detail: i tested the 250e cv1 out, stopped in a step with this step knob turned all the way to 0volts. my analog voltometer showed 0volts
(my voltometer being a Doepfer A-197 module).

also tested the cv out of an AD from an 281e, without it being triggered by anything. again 0volts.

so, no offset in the Buchla 200e banana outs.
(unless there is offset in the 259e and 261e mod osc banana outs?)

...the weather for cross-patching seems fine....

also, no module of mine has been damaged so far, from today's crosspatching...
(but cross-patch at your own risk of course...)

dougcl · Posted: Fri Sep 23, 2011 4:11 pm Post subject:

I think what is meant by offset, is the fact that CV is unipolar. Audio signals are bipolar. So comparing a sine say, on the mod osc banana out with the mod osc audio out, you should see a unipolar signal from the banana, and bipolar from the audio. In other words, the banana output has an offset to bring the whole wave into the positive region. The audio out doesn't.

This is one of the reasons that Buchla separates the cv from the audio. Also, considering the dual purpose of the 281e, both envelope and LFO, it makes sense that all CV should be unipolar.

jenamu6 · Posted: Fri Sep 23, 2011 4:14 pm Post subject:

Gotta love those Buchlaboys....

chrisso · Posted: Fri Sep 23, 2011 4:55 pm Post subject:

I think the perceived limitation is a strength.
The separation of audio from control forces you to think in new ways, or patch in new configurations leading to new sounds and new ways of doing things.
If Buchla 200e is your only modular system it makes sense to get as much flexibility and freedom out of it as possible. If the 200e sits alongside other modular systems, I'd suggest working with those in known ways, and finding new ways to work with the Buchla.

oljud · Posted: Fri Sep 23, 2011 5:15 pm Post subject:

Go for it! I've been patching my school's Buchla 200 a lot and the school had three home soldered banana-to-tini-cables. I used them A LOT. Using a 284 cross-patched as oscillators, using the 16 step sequencer as a wavetable synth, also while sending a 20khz sine tone into it's analog input (aliasing! noise!). It's lovely, and i get all the good stuff about patch legibility and better signal integrity. I DON'T CARE!

The source of uncertainty should be a fantastic noise oscillator with feedback and stuff. Unfortunately my school only had the boring kind. No CV control :-(

There should be a law that everythinh must have banana's. I'm going to go euro, but I want bananas...

Parallel Worlds · Posted: Fri Sep 23, 2011 5:56 pm Post subject:

Parallel Worlds · Posted: Fri Sep 23, 2011 6:01 pm Post subject:

Parallel Worlds · Posted: Fri Sep 23, 2011 6:05 pm Post subject:

franzschuier · Posted: Sat Sep 24, 2011 3:49 am Post subject:

dougcl · Posted: Sat Sep 24, 2011 5:03 am Post subject:

Parallel Worlds · Posted: Sat Sep 24, 2011 5:55 am Post subject:

e-grad · Posted: Sat Sep 24, 2011 6:05 am Post subject:

What might perceived as a limitation today has obviously historical reasons. To understand why CV and audio signals are seperated you'll have to keep in mind the electronical constraints in the 1970s. Regarding the 200e: Don wanted to keep the standard he has established in the 1970s.

What is called a repeatedly a limitation is none from the point of view by someone who wants to mix and match both a 200 system and a 200e system.

Lyonel · Posted: Sat Sep 24, 2011 6:20 am Post subject:

Parallel Worlds · Posted: Sat Sep 24, 2011 6:33 am Post subject:

of course, i totally understand that Don had specific reasons for doing what he did. i do not doubt that at all.

but, it does not hurt the artist to experiment and crosspatch bananas to minijacks... smile

dougcl · Posted: Sat Sep 24, 2011 10:30 am Post subject:

Parallel Worlds · Posted: Sat Sep 24, 2011 11:59 am Post subject:

Unipolar regarding the Doepfer lfo's: the unipolar pulse output of A146 and the saw output of the A147 (and maybe there are more in other lfo modules...?) i do not have the time to measure all of them....

Unipolar regarding the Serge: the Saw and Triangle output of the Serge PCO for sure, and (most probably) the saw and triangle output of the NTO. also, for sure, the Blue banana outputs of the DSG and the DTG. and maybe more. again i do not have the time to measure everything.

i work and use my modulars almost daily, for the last 9 years, so, i really work with them a lot.

Parallel Worlds · Posted: Sat Sep 24, 2011 12:03 pm Post subject:

Parallel Worlds · Posted: Sat Sep 24, 2011 12:09 pm Post subject:

just quickly checked a few more things:
the Doepfer A100 and A111: all waveforms are Bipolar. (ok, i expected that as, IIRC, their outputs are all ac-coupled...)

and, all the other waveforms of all other Doepfer LFO's are Bipolar...

dougcl · Posted: Sat Sep 24, 2011 12:47 pm Post subject:

MechaSeb · Posted: Sat Sep 24, 2011 7:39 pm Post subject:

Parallel Worlds · Posted: Sat Sep 24, 2011 9:30 pm Post subject:

Dr. Sketch-n-Etch · Posted: Mon Feb 27, 2012 4:30 pm Post subject:

Not to stir the pot, but (OK, in fact, only to stir the pot -- hey, we haven't had a thread this potentially polarizing since Christmas!),

I've always felt that separating the "audio" and "control voltage" functions on Buchla equipment was a needless limitation, if not an outright design flaw. (But, then again, Buchla always did seem to want to exert a certain amount of control over what artists did with his gear.) After all, it was none other than Moog who pointed out that CV was just audio slowed down, and vice versa. I don't see what the advantage of keeping audio at line level is either, since one has only to convert it at the end of the signal chain. Plus, sometimes, switching these two functions really leads to interesting results. Recent case in point: Danjel van Tijn's demonstration of the new Intellijel uFold (a wavefolder based, incidentally, on the Buchla 261) in which, halfway through, he put LFO into the audio input and audio into the CV inputs, and obtained shockingly new and infinitely more interesting timbres than doing it the "right" way round.

To me, the most interesting thing about Buchla systems is how defensive all the fanboyz get when anyone dares to criticize them. Yes, they're awesome, but jeez, get over yourselves already!

Parallel Worlds · Posted: Mon Feb 27, 2012 4:33 pm Post subject:

cbm · Posted: Mon Feb 27, 2012 5:47 pm Post subject:

Oxix52 · Posted: Mon Feb 27, 2012 11:20 pm Post subject:

I made a few of these recently to use with my Buchla system:

The socket is Tiny-Jax. Works great.

cbm · Posted: Mon Feb 27, 2012 11:55 pm Post subject:

I've made a few of these, although I don't need to use them very often.

Dr. Sketch-n-Etch · Posted: Tue Feb 28, 2012 12:05 am Post subject:

Oxix52 · Posted: Tue Feb 28, 2012 12:50 am Post subject:

I do have to say that, like Chris, I rarely use my banana converter cable. At the time I made them, I was anticipating buying a couple of Serge modules thinking I would convert the serge banana audio to Buchla Tiny-Jax, but I spent the money on more Buchla instead hihi

rydan · Posted: Tue Feb 28, 2012 2:14 am Post subject:

rydan · Posted: Tue Feb 28, 2012 2:39 am Post subject:

Also, another thing that could be nice, is use the output of the 259e primary as modulator, when running at a low speed, to get a sweepable wavetable LFO.

That said. One of the (many) good things about modulars is that you are not restricted to one system/brand. If you want audio rate panning of your buchla signals using the 259e primary, just get a euro/serge/modcan/whatever pan module (and possibly a amp to get the 259e level right) and patch that in.

batchas · Posted: Tue Feb 28, 2012 2:51 am Post subject:

Bakis, I guess you are disappointed because you are using a bunch of other gear and you are used to experiment with all formats (most having 1/4" or 3.5"), without worrying about "dangerous" signal differences.
I indeed was disappointed as I also used to plug audio and every kind of other signals together (EVERY... I prefer not to name them cause I hate being insulted) and it made sense to me cause I used my ears and not my brain (please just respect everyone), BUT as soon as I started with my new Buchla, I did not feel the limitations I thought I would.
I made banana to tiny cables (did not used much either - except for FM input), got a format jumbler (I use it everyday and I'm now making my own multiples) and for what I do NOW, it is abolutely OK.
If I think of "limitation", than maybe the 1,2v tracking. Also here I'll build a converter and will deal with it that way.
Bakis, to answer your first question, for the moment I was able to plug everything I wanted to without issue, using adapters or crossovers (grounded when needed).
I did not try with my refrigirator because I respect my 200e and because I do not use my Buchla for fucked up noise between all kind of electrical gear.
Like everybody here I guess, and you Bakis included, I do not need a Buchla to do this kind of stuff. But to patch between modulars or other synths, no prob.

cbm · Posted: Tue Feb 28, 2012 4:47 am Post subject: