MUFF WIGGLER Forum Index
 FAQ & Terms of UseFAQ & Terms Of Use   Wiggler RadioMW Radio   Muff Wiggler TwitterTwitter   Support the site @ PatreonPatreon 
 SearchSearch   RegisterSign up   Log inLog in 
WIGGLING 'LITE' IN GUEST MODE

Envelope Generators With Freerun option?
MUFF WIGGLER Forum Index -> Modular Synth General Discussion  
Author Envelope Generators With Freerun option?
goom
I'd like to have a freerun EG option. This will allow the EG to continue it's whole ADSR cycle even if the gate is removed before the cycle is complete. It would be best to have it as a switchable (on-off) function.

Does such a beast exist in the modular world? If one doesn't exist, would it be possible to build a helper circuit to mod an existing EG. I'm using MOTM and Oakley EGs.
diophantine
I suppose it would need to be something like Korg's ADHSR, as found on the MS-10 and MS-20, where H is the "hold time": basically time it adds onto the input gate length.

Otherwise, the EG's "S" portion doesn't know how long to run (and would, by default, be zero).

I'm not sure of any modular EG that provides this explicitly.

The Universal Event Generator could give you the equivalent of an ADHSR, but it would be on 100% of the time (unless I'm forgetting a mode on there).
e-grad
That's not possible for an ADSR which needs a gate for the sustain.

All stages are time based except for the sustain stage which determines the output level. The sustain's time is dictated by the gate length minus the attack and decay stages; the output level during the sustain stage is set by the sustain pot.
e-grad
diophantine beat me to it.

The non-Euro Blacet EG01 has a free run mode which is two stages (AD) only. You might be interested in the online manual:

http://www.blacet.com/EGmanualBasic.pdf
diophantine
Also, I'm thinking freerunning isn't the right feature name here, as that is generally used for a looping (lfo) mode. (The Oakley has this for A/D too.)
e-grad
diophantine wrote:
Also, I'm thinking freerunning isn't the right feature name here, as that is generally used for a looping (lfo) mode. (The Oakley has this for A/D too.)

True. Free running should be independent from any trig/gate.
giorgio
MATHS
sduck
The best thing for your format currently that is available prebuilt is the UEG - no, it's not looping 100% of the time, it can also work as a regular eg but with more stages to deal with.

The serge/cgs VSC can be set to loop, but is only AD.
Synthbuilder
This:



http://www.oakleysound.com/vrg.htm

But you're going to have to wait. I'm laying out the board right now. PCBs should be available by the end of the month if all goes well.

Tony
diophantine
Folks, the OP isn't looking for a looping ADSR, at least not from his description.

goom, looking at the UEG manual, it may suit your needs by switching between Gated Finish Loop and Gated Release modes, though if your gate is too long it will loop.
http://www.encoreelectronics.com/UEGManual2.pdf
goom
Synthbuilder wrote:
This:



http://www.oakleysound.com/vrg.htm

But you're going to have to wait. I'm laying out the board right now. PCBs should be available by the end of the month if all goes well.

Tony


Whoa! Very cool. Thanks Tony. As long as it will peak to the max voltage (5V, hopefully) even after the gate is removed, it looks like a perfect module to mate with my existing setup. I don't understand all the other options, but it looks like a very versatile module. Can you share any more info?
e-grad
The ASys Trapezoid Generator should fit the bill whereas the On stage would be similiar to a full level sustain stage. However that is still a three stage envelope since there's no decay. Yet there's no complete ADSR equivalent without a gate.

http://www.analoguesystems.co.uk/pdf/RS510E.pdf
goom
diophantine wrote:
I suppose it would need to be something like Korg's ADHSR, as found on the MS-10 and MS-20, where H is the "hold time": basically time it adds onto the input gate length.

Otherwise, the EG's "S" portion doesn't know how long to run (and would, by default, be zero).

I'm not sure of any modular EG that provides this explicitly.

The Universal Event Generator could give you the equivalent of an ADHSR, but it would be on 100% of the time (unless I'm forgetting a mode on there).


I hadn't thought of the Korg ADHSR, but it looks like it could also work. I actually already own a UEG, but for this freerun function, I feel it's using a stick of TNT when all I want it to light a candle. smile

Speaking of the freerun moniker, that's what Oberheim called this function in the Xpander and M12. I just associated with that when I thought about the function.
goom
Thanks for all the suggestions. I'll check them all out to see what's best, but so far the new Oakley module seems very cool.
Synthbuilder
Actually, if you already have an issue 3 or 4 Oakley ADSR/VCA module then you could remove C13 and put in its place a 1nF cap and a switch in series. Turning off the switch would force the ADSR to complete the attack phase whether the gate is there or not. The decay would kick in as normal after the attack peak has been reached. That is you'll get a one shot AD output.

Tony
CLee
If you're into DIY the VCS/DUSG from Ken Stone.

The trigger input does an AR one shot envelope. Connecting OUT to TRIG gives you looping. Gate into IN gives you ASR envelopes.
Navs
e-grad wrote:
That's not possible for an ADSR


Yes, it is wink

If you've got a gate delay and a comparator, you can achieve both types of 'free-run' that have been discussed (see attached MP3).

With a gate delay like the A-162, set the delay to zero and the length to taste. This provides the gate that the sustain requires. This mimics the response of AD envelopes like the VCS, which complete regardless of gate duration.

If you then mult that gate to a comparator with a suitable threshold, you'll get a second gate when the first expires. Mix the two signals and feed them to the input of the gate delay and you've got a looping ADSR.

The A-162 is great for these sorts of tricks and can also be used with AD envelopes which have an End Out to achieve the Envelator's delayed looping.
goom
Tony, I have the issue 1 and issue 2 Oakley EGs. I also have MOTM EGs and the Encore UEG. Do you know what price point the VRG will be?

Thanks everyone for the suggestions. I will look into everything you've mentioned.
dkcg
If you have a fast sequencer and a slew (or adjustable portamento in the sequencer), you can make an ADSR (or more complex shapes) shaped envelope loop or freakout (in a good way). Depends on the sequencer and the patch (I think a VC addressed envelope would be easier to time out the stages), I bet a Z8000 and a Maths could give you some crazy or musical envelopes tho. Maybe add in a couple comparators to make your steps for the stages. Whatever works. hmmm.....

This is how I would set up a looping complex envelope in the buchla, with the 250e. A slewed sequencer probably wouldn't be the snappiest, fastest envelope, but an interesting one with multiple stages.
Synthbuilder
goom wrote:
Tony, I have the issue 1 and issue 2 Oakley EGs.


Do you have the original issue 1 and 2 ADSR/VCA or the issue 1 and 2 VC-ADSR PCBs?

If it's the ADSR/VCA (Omeg green pots) then it's C39 (issue 1) or C9 (issue 2) you need to take out.

If it's the post 2005 non looping VC-ADSR boards (Spectrol/Vishay pots) then it's C12 you need to take out.

goom wrote:
Do you know what price point the VRG will be?


The PCBs will be about £18 assuming they go right at the first run. For the ready made ones I don't know yet what price Paul will sell them at.

Tony
e-grad
Navs wrote:
e-grad wrote:
That's not possible for an ADSR


Yes, it is wink

If you've got a gate delay and a comparator, you can achieve both types of 'free-run' that have been discussed (see attached MP3).

With a gate delay like the A-162, set the delay to zero and the length to taste. This provides the gate that the sustain requires. This mimics the response of AD envelopes like the VCS, which complete regardless of gate duration. [...]


There's a reason why you've chopped off a part a the quote.

e-grad wrote:
That's not possible for an ADSR which needs a gate for the sustain.


d'oh!

However, of course it's helpful to draw the attention to possible sources of gate signals.
goom
Synthbuilder wrote:
goom wrote:
Tony, I have the issue 1 and issue 2 Oakley EGs.


Do you have the original issue 1 and 2 ADSR/VCA or the issue 1 and 2 VC-ADSR PCBs?

If it's the ADSR/VCA (Omeg green pots) then it's C39 (issue 1) or C9 (issue 2) you need to take out.

If it's the post 2005 non looping VC-ADSR boards (Spectrol/Vishay pots) then it's C12 you need to take out.

goom wrote:
Do you know what price point the VRG will be?


The PCBs will be about £18 assuming they go right at the first run. For the ready made ones I don't know yet what price Paul will sell them at.

Tony



Thanks, Tony. I have the original issue. 1 and issue 2 ADSR/VCA modules. Yep, I'm kickin' it old school! grin
Navs
e-grad wrote:
Navs wrote:
e-grad wrote:
That's not possible for an ADSR


Yes, it is wink

If you've got a gate delay and a comparator, you can achieve both types of 'free-run' that have been discussed (see attached MP3).

With a gate delay like the A-162, set the delay to zero and the length to taste. This provides the gate that the sustain requires. This mimics the response of AD envelopes like the VCS, which complete regardless of gate duration. [...]


There's a reason why you've chopped off a part a the quote.

e-grad wrote:
That's not possible for an ADSR which needs a gate for the sustain.


d'oh!



Guilty as charged lol

e-grad wrote:

However, of course it's helpful to draw the attention to possible sources of gate signals.


And that's all I wanted to do Hug These are modular synths, after all ...
e-grad
Navs wrote:
Guilty as charged lol

No prob, neighbour. w00t
MUFF WIGGLER Forum Index -> Modular Synth General Discussion  
Page 1 of 1
Powered by phpBB © phpBB Group