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Pics of Double Andore envelope curves
MUFF WIGGLER Forum Index -> The Harvestman Goto page 1, 2  Next [all]
Author Pics of Double Andore envelope curves
DrBerndtHoffmann
Hi all,

Does anyone know if there are any pictures or diagrams of the various envelope curves the Double Andore uses?

Apologies if these have been posted elsewhere. I had a look through (many, but not all of) the posts here about the DA.

Thanks!
shred
a lot of people have been asking for these but Scott hasn't posted them anywhere. He did however say somewhere here (prolly in the Harvestman section but I forget the thread) what they all are, just no diagrams. I feel like a lot of people are on the fence about the DA because they haven't seen the env shapes... seriously, i just don't get it

edit: theres also this
"The envelope ROMs can be written by wave256- just draw 32 waveforms, truncate the binary file before hex converting it, and burn to a 25LC640."
READYdot
Can't agree more. I really love my HM modules, but I feel a bit forgotten by the manufacturer. Almost every one from WMD to MakeNoise goes through the hassle in doing manuals for their modules. The modules just feels incomplete without a propper manual and the table of waves. There doesn't have to be a lot of manual just look at the 2 pages manual for the GWS...
lloydcole
Add me to the disappointed with The Harvestman on this point. Just look at the updated manual 4ms made for the PEG. Almost makes me wish I'd bought one of those instead. The Make Noise manuals are hugely helpful.

I have feeling that the Harvestman might think it cool to have no manuals and maybe it makes him and 'outsider', just like making odd sized modules, and having hidden sub-menus.

Disappointing in someone obviously otherwise smart and talented.
Knobtwister
I've got the feeling that Scotts workflow is quite sporadic. There's alot of talk of modules that'll go into production and whats next on the list on soon to be released products. It's a shame really that there's so few manuals avaliable for his products, with his designs, I bet the manuals would be a great read.

I don't want to sound harsh, I have no idea how it is to be a manufacturer and a company owner, this is just the impression I've got from following Scotts twitter the last 2 years and by the HM subforum.
shred
READYdot: well..that sucks. I wish it didn't feel incomplete to you because I really love it and I want other people to love it too ( I know some of you do). I guess I just don't understand why seeing the envelope shapes will make it more complete, maybe it's because I respond better to hearing then seeing ( I can see the differences of a linear and an exponential curve on paper but that doesn't really tell me what each sounds like, they're just lines on paper to me). I don't want to delegitimize your concerns, cause it would be nice to see the waves or have a more detailed manual, but it's not keeping me from enjoying it and creating with it.
...
I'm just gonna leave this alone cause I don't want this to turn into something it doesn't have to be. If you don't like what he's doing - don't buy his modules.
lloydcole
Note - there is a great manual for Hertz Donut... so it's not like he's never made one.
bluemeanie
i'll have a go at making a list of the curves.. soon as..
i got a dso nano scope and it makes things a lot easier when you can see whats going on
if i cant manage to save scope shots (havent got there yet) i'll take photos of the scopes screen and post them
kimu
being myself interested in DA and being in my job doing products for customer, i have to agree on this point: having clear and helpful documentation is a must.
READYdot
shred wrote:
READYdot: well..that sucks. I wish it didn't feel incomplete to you because I really love it and I want other people to love it too ( I know some of you do). I guess I just don't understand why seeing the envelope shapes will make it more complete, maybe it's because I respond better to hearing then seeing ( I can see the differences of a linear and an exponential curve on paper but that doesn't really tell me what each sounds like, they're just lines on paper to me). I don't want to delegitimize your concerns, cause it would be nice to see the waves or have a more detailed manual, but it's not keeping me from enjoying it and creating with it.
...
I'm just gonna leave this alone cause I don't want this to turn into something it doesn't have to be. If you don't like what he's doing - don't buy his modules.

Perhaps my comment comes a bit harsh over the net. I really enjoy the DA, really. Love the Delay-like envelopes. It's just that a complex module needs a manual. There is no hate in what I say. I'm not here to step on someones toes or diminish the quality of the products from this manufacturer, and as stated, there are manuals to some modules. And as for the table of waves, as I still don't have a decent o-scope and as I am an all visual guy, I need some visuals to better decipher what I am hearing. I do it all the time with my A-107, looking up the filter-curve or on the GWS I look at the chart and think about how a wave looks and on the other hand how it sounds, correlating the visual and the aural somewhat makes things easier for me. Really no hate. Scott does some of the most radical modules out there and they even do look terribly awesome... so it is no criticism, it's just an opinion and at that only an opinion on a missing manual. w00t
Mitchk1989
I'm one of those who is refraining from getting a DA because of a general lack of info on it.
chrisso
I'm getting one. Hasn't arrived yet, but I agree, it needs some kind of manual.
(No hating here)
bryantcheramie
Fuck that. Bionic lester and hammeroid, then manuals. That shit can wait.
Junk Rhythm
Mitchk1989 wrote:
I'm one of those who is refraining from getting a DA because of a general lack of info on it.


I'm refraining from getting a DA because of a general lack of funds. If anyone wants to "donate", I'll gladly scope the waveforms and provide pics. hihi
eXode
I wouldn't mind a manual for the DA, but on the other hand half of the fun is to experiment and use my ears. Such a lovely little module.
READYdot
eXode wrote:
I wouldn't mind a manual for the DA, but on the other hand half of the fun is to experiment and use my ears. Such a lovely little module.

Totally agree, but there are these points in experimenting, where you'd want to take out that manual or table to clear things up.
bluemeanie
other than what is written in the module description from where it is sold (copy and paste my freinds), there is a bit more info that i gathered from a couple of threads on muffs

here it is
(some of it is repeated, i made a text file with no reference the original threads)

Governor Blacksnake post from the locked thread - - - Surachai will be making a DA demonstration video shortly, but until then here are some tips and tricks:

- the envs will retrigger in all modes.
-hold down the cv select button to put a decimal point in one side of the display- this means you have selected the second bank of envelope shapes. on the factory rom it's just an interpolation from log to Lin to expo.
- hold down the AD/ASR/lfo button to invert its LEDs. This means that for that half of the module, you can select different shapes for the attack and decay curves.
-hold down the VCA law select button to light up the nearby red LED. This enables analog cross-amplitude modulation using the audio output of the other VCA.
-the external CV input accepts negative voltages, and can be assigned to more than one parameter. negative voltages will subtract from the knob value.
-The vca's expo mode is calibrated to slightly distort at 8V cv input. You can adjust the trimmer on the board for more or less distortion. The test pad on the pcb near the trimmer shows this reference voltage. I calibrate to 1.15V - more voltage means less distortion.
- The envelope ROMs can be written by wave256- just draw 32 waveforms, truncate the binary file before hex converting it, and burn to a 25LC640.



and..........





Here's how it works:

Both left/right sides of the module are identical from the factory.

The top section is an AD envelope generator with EOA and EOD outputs too. There is one CV input with attenuator that can be assigned to attack time, decay time, curve shape, or any combination of the three. The freeze input holds the envelope in its current position. The Mirror input flips it upside down, keeping it in the 0-8v range.

The shape control lets you select one of 16 curves. The nearby knob selects the curve, and it can optionally do a piston-style interpolation between adjacent curves (just in one dimension).

The envelope can run in AD, AHD, and LFO mode. I'm also working on a bonus mode that lets you use the CV input to shape an incoming CV using the onboard curve tables.

The envelope output is normalled to the control input of the bottom section which is a VCA. You can select linear or log response for the CV, and also assign the VCA on the other side of the module to modulate it too.

The lower jack in the center is a mix of the two VCA channels, and the one on the top of the module is a sort of maximum circuit that lets you make more complicated envelope shapes - the knob adjusts the balance between the two sides

The envelope shapes can be written with the wave256 software, and you can have different curves for each side of the module if you write it that way.




forgot to mention - the curve selection normally applies to both phases of the envelope for that side of the module. However, there will be a button hold mode that lets you select different attack/decay curves that then apply to both sides of the module.



With both A and D times at maximum, it will take 30 seconds to complete the cycle. With the times at minimum, it can reach 3 KHZ. That might drop slightly if I want to enable longer envelope times. The CV and knob response is exponential.


Yeah, the CV input can be assigned to any combination of the three parameters. There's a little bit of voltage offset due to the way the input is biased, but the benefit is that the input recognizes negative voltages and will subtract from the manual value if necessary.

No expander is planned for the ROMs, but since we're just talking envelope shapes you could draw all 32 of them in no time. I'll upload the .256 file that I used for the preset shapes so you can copy them to a new file if you like.


shred says:
holding down the cv select button will place a decimal next to that side's number/letter and open up the different bank. Holding down the behavior select button changes the envelope to attack in the left side and decay in the right so you can cycle through all the shapes for each side thus making the 256 possible combinations. Not sure if the hidden bank, the one accessed when holding cv select, exposes hidden envelope shapes or plays whatever the selected envelope from the other side is. kind of hard to tell from surachai's video and i haven't really been able to figure it out, whatever it does it sounds pretty amazing and weird


By holding CV Select, you access the second bank of 16 envelope curves (shown by a decimal point on that side's display). In the factory ROM it's just a maths-like progression from log to linear to expo, with 16 steps.


When in "split" mode, the channel you are using will only access waves from the bank selected on that channel only. This is so different channels can draw from different banks, which in the factory rom have different characteristics (and several of the alternate bank waves are duplicated in the default bank anyways.) Refer to the following table: the first number is the selection shown on the display, and the following numbers are the actual waves accessed during the attack/decay phases for each channel in each mode.


Display reading | left channel normal | left channel split | right channel normal | right channel split

07 | 00 | 07 | 77 | 07
0.7 | 0.0. | 0.7. | 77 | 07
07. | 00 | 07 | 7.7. | 0.7.
0.7. | 0.0. | 0.7. | 7.7. | 0.7.



that is all. thats pretty much it. read. go.


farked if i know what all those numbers up there mean tho!
but i got this thing sussed and love it to bits even tho i'm having major trigging issues (waiting to hear back from harvestman).

i'll try and post some scope shots in a bit
DrBerndtHoffmann
bluemeanie wrote:

i'll try and post some scope shots in a bit


Thanks for offering - and for all the other info. I really feel like I've only just scratched the surface of the DA's capabilities...
bluemeanie
all done

https://www.muffwiggler.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=47927
NV
shred wrote:
If you don't like what he's doing - don't buy his modules.


That seems like a rather extreme reaction to a request for a manual from a manufacturer. It's a gentle request made by fans so that they can better understand the tools they enjoy - seems reasonable enough.
shred
you're right there's no problem with that. that was more of a reaction to

lloydcole wrote:
I have feeling that the Harvestman might think it cool to have no manuals and maybe it makes him and 'outsider'

Disappointing in someone obviously otherwise smart and talented.


which I felt was a bit slighting, and not to READYdot's request for a manual; although in reading my post again it doesn't come off that way. Like I said, I don't mean to undermine his or anyone's desire for a manual, it's just weird to me since I like the module so much and his general approach to module design and I have at best a very basic knowledge of synthesis. A lot less than most people here I would assume. It's naive to feel like if it's good enough for me then it's good enough for anybody but that's where my head was at. Hopefully now that the env shapes have been posted - thanks to bluemeanie's time and effort thumbs up - it will assuage some hesitations and shed a little more light in the absence of a detailed manual from Scott.
bluemeanie
soz kent

heres the pics




READYdot
Totally awesome! Thanks alot!!!

Cheers, Gilles
READYdot
Ok, here are some questions. They might have been answered, or I am too stupid to understand what is written... XD

Quote:
The freeze input holds the envelope in its current position.


When does it do that? As long as there is a gate?

Quote:
The shape control lets you select one of 16 curves. The nearby knob selects the curve, and it can optionally do a piston-style interpolation between adjacent curves (just in one dimension).


Ok... what is the first number and what is the second. Is the first the wave for the A and the second the one for D? Or is the second something else..?

Quote:
[...] the one on the top of the module is a sort of maximum circuit that lets you make more complicated envelope shapes


Sort of? So if it is a maximum, that means it takes always the strongest signal and overwrites the weaker... right?

Quote:
forgot to mention - the curve selection normally applies to both phases of the envelope for that side of the module. However, there will be a button hold mode that lets you select different attack/decay curves that then apply to both sides of the module.


Huh? So what curve does apply when to where...?

Quote:
shred says:
holding down the cv select button will place a decimal next to that side's number/letter and open up the different bank.


So then each number corresponds to the same curve for A and D? And the different bank is this lin/log/exp difference?

Quote:
Holding down the behavior select button changes the envelope to attack in the left side and decay in the right so you can cycle through all the shapes for each side thus making the 256 possible combinations.


Huh? Can't I already select the waves for A and D independently... hmmm.....

Quote:
When in "split" mode, the channel you are using will only access waves from the bank selected on that channel only.


Now I'm completely lost... Aren't they split from the beginning on?

Quote:
This is so different channels can draw from different banks, which in the factory rom have different characteristics (and several of the alternate bank waves are duplicated in the default bank anyways.) Refer to the following table: the first number is the selection shown on the display, and the following numbers are the actual waves accessed during the attack/decay phases for each channel in each mode.
Display reading | left channel normal | left channel split | right channel normal | right channel split
07 | 00 | 07 | 77 | 07
0.7 | 0.0. | 0.7. | 77 | 07
07. | 00 | 07 | 7.7. | 0.7.
0.7. | 0.0. | 0.7. | 7.7. | 0.7.


hmmm..... I really feel stupid....
shred
Not entirely sure about some of these but I'll do my best...

1. I believe the freeze input works when there is also a trigger input.

2. This is something I'm still trying to figure out.. at some point - i forget now since I'm not in front of it- there is an interpolation of the env shape to the one before it and the one above it in the sequence so if you have it on 4, moving the knob all the way counter-clockwise will go to 3 and all the way clockwise will go to 5. For both AandD. Going to have to spend some time with it and figure out whats going on.

3. I think you have this right. It takes the amount from both envelopes but plays the stronger signal at the time. So if you have both sides going playing two different envelope shapes and with different attack and decay times it can create sort of a hybrid based on the relationship to each other.

4. Normally, the envelope number/digit applies to both A and D for that one side. So if the right side says 6, both its attack and decay will be the 6 shape. But when you hold the Behavior select, it takes the right side envelope and puts it over both sides so that the left digit is the attack portion of the curve and right digit is the decay portion of the curve - both for the right side envelope. so for example you could have a 7 attack and an E decay instead of E for both the A and D of the right side. (thats what the number chart is trying to represent)

5. Yep, pretty sure thats correct.

6. No because normally the one digit is for both A and D. Same thing as ^^^. Holding the behavior select makes it so that one side's envelope is stretched over both digits - left for attack right for decay.

7 and 8. If the display reads 0|7 - that means normally the left side AandD is the 0 curve (so 00) and right side AandD is the 7 curve (77). But when they are split each sides channel would 07 - attack 0 and decay 7. Then repeat the process for when adding the decimal point by the digits (see #5 - switching from lin/log/expo difference)

hope that helps a bit
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