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Is "Muff Wiggler" offensive?
MUFF WIGGLER Forum Index -> Announcements - Please read!  

What do you think?
It's bordering on, or is, unacceptable to me
7%
 7%  [ 101 ]
It's mildly offensive, to be honest
13%
 13%  [ 190 ]
It's immature/stupid, but harmless
15%
 15%  [ 223 ]
I don't care either way
20%
 20%  [ 297 ]
It's pretty funny! But I see the other side as well
15%
 15%  [ 215 ]
I think it rocks!
28%
 28%  [ 404 ]
Total Votes : 1430

Author Is "Muff Wiggler" offensive?
Muff Wiggler
Interesting concept... someone I know asked me a smart question, which I'm surprised I've not been asked before. Bearing in mind that "it is what it is" and I'm not here to kiss ass, I think it's a fair discussion, and it would be interesting to hear what people think... even though it won't change anything.

So, I've quoted the question, and pasted my response below it. Anyone interested in knowing where the name "Muff Wiggler" comes from, and what it means, will find the answer in here. Feel free to share your thoughts. Mostly I hope the name makes people laugh, and that's it. But I am sorry if it offends people.... just not sorry enough to change!

Quote:
Hey, do you get flack about "Muff Wiggler" not being PC for the 21st century? Just curious.


You raise a really good question about "Muff Wiggler"! To be honest, I've long wondered how long it would be before I was asked. Believe it or not, it's never really come up before.

Ok, there's one case - years ago, long before I had a website, or a blog, or a forum, one small comment was made. "Muff Wiggler" has been my handle (nickname) on varous web forums for a few years now. At one point, on a music-software forum, a well-known male member said something along the lines of "And I've always found your handle to be offensive and degrading to women".

Anyway, that was the only time. A bunch of other members (a few of them women) replied that they took no offense to my name, and found it quite silly and funny. It was routinely chosen as a top contender for "Who has the best name on our forum?" threads.

Actually, there was only one other comment ever made - I sent John Blacet a link to the Blacet forum here, and he replied "Muffwiggler? Sounds mildly offensive!". That was the sum total of his reply! I don't think he ever looked at the forum :loL:

Anyway, back to the name. I definately DO see how it can cause some (hopefully mild) offense, and I do agree that it's not "PC" for the current era. It's a little bit "by design" to be truthful with you.

Some background - The name was chosen long before I had ever considered launching a website, blog, forum etc. Most of this stuff has happened by accident.

I mentioned the "music software" forum above - well, it's one of the largest forums on the Internet, and I've been a member there for years - I'm a moderator there now. Anyway, I had a different handle there at first, one that I didn't like. I needed to change it, but couldn't pick one.

At the same time, I was playing in a local band. We played two nights a week in clubs in town, for fun and beer. We both have good day jobs, and didn't do the music thing seriously at all, no interest in getting somewhere with it. Every night we played, we billed ourselves under a different name. Well, we started to get a bit of a following, and the clubs really wanted us to have a consistent name, as we were starting to draw people to the clubs.

We really couldn't find a name. We tried so hard. We opened dictionaries, pointed to random words, tried this with other books, all sorts of stuff. Couldn't get a name we liked.

So one night at practise, between songs, we're talking about the name thing. I look down at all the guitar and FX pedals on the floor - there was a lot of Electro-Harmonix stuff down there! For some reason, two of them stood out to me, the "Big Muff Pi", and "The Wiggler".

I looked at them, and blurted out "Muff Wiggler!"

We all laughed really hard. For way too long. For some reason, it was absolutely hilarious. Much funnier that in should have been, to be honest. We were picturing gig flyers, and kids telling their parents "We're going to see Muff Wiggler!!". Much (cheap) hilarity!

Anyway, I really wanted to use the name for our band, but my partner nixed it - "Too Racy", and I'm sure he was right.

Anyway, I couldn't let it go - and my wife thought it was outrageously funny as well, so I switched my nickname on the aforementioned forum to "Muff Wiggler". It really seemed to be a minor 'hit', people responded to it well, and I think in the tongue-in-cheek humour that was intended. Lots of laughs.

Well, fast-forward a couple of years. I got a great deal on webhosting (like, an INSANELY great deal), and I wanted webspace just to upload songs and samples for people to download (there was no Virb or similar services at the time). I took "Muffwiggler.com", because, well, that was my name, I thought it would be silly fun, and it was not going to be anything serious.

Around the same time, Matrixsynth changed so that you needed to login to comment. So I made a Blogger account, with my name Muff Wiggler. I didn't originally plan to use the blog, as I had brand-new webspace.

Well, the blog was so easy to post to, I started putting random comments and posts up, and people interestingly enough started to visit, read and post. Wow!

Next, I was playing with my webhosting, learning about all the cool options they gave me. I had access to PHP scripting, and a mySQL database. I figured, just for fun, I would put up a phpBB forum, just to learn more about forum management, mySQL and PHP (I'm a geek). I never expected the forum to go anywhere, never thought I would ever have more than one or two members, honestly.

I want to make this point - not only do I not sell anything, nor make money from the website, nor support any advertisers or banners, beyond this, I also have never gone around inviting people to my forum, or performed any sort of 'membership drive'. I put "visit my forum!" in my signature at a couple of other forums, only seen by people who already know me as "Muff Wiggler". I've never suggested that my silly little place on the Internet become any portal for synth info, or anything else for that matter. It was really just a dumb joke that took on its own organic growth.

But, people started showing up! Registering, posting, discussing. It's still all very amazing to me. They all have some similar interests, which I began to try to cater to in the structure of the forum by creating sub-forums etc. These people all came on their own accord.

Anyway, do I think "Muff Wiggler" is not PC for the 21st century? Yes I do.

However, not to sound like an ass, but I also don't really care. And I thought PC was supposed to be dead anyway? I hope you don't take this the wrong way, but I'm far beyond trying to cater to PC-ness, and beyond losing sleep over what other people think. I strongly support the right of people to hold their own opinions, viewpoints, lifestyles. If someone takes offense at the name, I am sorry for that, I support their right to take this offense, and I don't hold it against them. I'm sure they don't visit and post, and that's fine with me. But I'm also not here to try to appease everyone (which is impossible!). I'm here to have fun, have some laughs, and maybe learn a bit. That's it. It's just me.

I'm not worried about alienating people. Personally I feel life is too short, and would suggest that these people lighten up and have a sense of fun and a sense of humour. I can't imagine how they feel about websites like ogrish.com or somethingawful.com if they take offense to "Muff Wiggler"! But certainly, to each their own, and I do respect their right to feel uncomfortable about the website's name. Luckily it's a very, very big internet, and there's lots of other places they can spend their time. I never suggested that ANYONE come to my shitty little corner of the web!

Anyway, that's my take. I'm a bit of a libertarian in a lot of regards, and think people can and should be free to have whatever attitudes, in-jokes, opinions, sexuality, religion that they want. This is all good stuff. I draw the line when people get hurt because of these views or opinions, but I don't think "Muff Wiggler" is ruining anyone's life. Hopefully it either makes them laugh, or simply look for something else to do with their time.
Muff Wiggler
I added a poll so that you can make your opinion known but stay anonymous if you would rather 8)

The results of the poll won't change anything, however it does risk outing me as someone who "doesn't care about his guest's opinion" if everyone votes against my name lol
Kwote
muff wiggler is fine but where in the fuck is auto-wah? perhaps i should go around posting as FUCKSTICK. i am HIGHLY offended!?!@(*%

twisted lol twisted wink
Muff Wiggler
auto-wah = Ottawa lol

i say go for "fuckstick" - seriously! 8)
Chuck E. Jesus
Muff Wiggler wrote:
I added a pole...


:shock:
consumed
i had to vote borderline because i surf the forum at work, and sometimes people step into my cube for work-related reasons. it was very embarrasing to have the female auditor (from out of the country) step in, sit down, and stare at MUFF WIGGLER with a girl in a bikini riding a guitar a couple weeks ago.

i had to reconsider whether i should be here while at work. thats all.
felix
Maybe it's because I've known the origin of "Muff Wiggler" came from, but I never found it the least bit offensive; cheeky maybe, but never offensive. Then again, I'm not very sensitive to such things; it would take some kind of direct personal attack to actually offend me.

But I can see the other side of it.

I used to go by "skulleader26" on various places on the internet and it was also part of both of my email addresses. At that time I started doing a lot of work installing WiFi networks in my dad's colleagues' homes and every single one had some kind of comment about the email address/contact info. My dad even told me he was embarrassed when he would give out my contact info (which of course then made me embarrassed about doing the same).

And of course, the handle was nothing sinister...more geeky than anything. It came from "Skull Leader", a reference to a position held by the main character of an 80's anime series, Robotech and my birthday, the 26th of July. Everyone thought it was about real skulls or death metal, or some kind of devil worshiping cult (yes one guy actually asked if it was "some kind of devil-worship business", after explaining the real meaning, it would have been easier to just say "yes").

There was also a funny incident a few weeks ago regarding "Muff Wiggler". I was reading the forum and my wife sat down next to me and saw the 50's chick crotch surfing the guitar and "Muff Wiggler" printed above it and said "what the hell kinda forum are you looking at?!". After explanation, she thought it was quite funny, but I would imagine some people having the same reaction and not searching deeper for anything else.

Oh well, more room in here for us witty folk! wink
Muff Wiggler
felix wrote:
Oh well, more room in here for us witty folk! wink


yeah, I pretty much agree with that. I haven't thought about this before - but maybe it works as a bit of a litmus test around here. I'm willing to be wrong, but I think if someone is going to get worked up over "Muff Wiggler", there's probably a lot of other stuff they are going to get worked up over as well, and I'm going to end up having to spend time dealing with their issues. So, yeah.

Now if that doesn't make me sound like as ass, I don't know what does lol I do hope it doesn't scare too many people away, honestly everyone is welcome, but on the other hand, I really don't have time to be holding people's hands and guiding them gingerly through the rosegarden of life wink

eh, sorry about the work thing guys. I can relate. At least you knew what it was before you opened it lol I promise to not have anything any racier than the guitar bombergirl illustration (or Hammerzeit, or Cyborg Pirate Ninja Jesus, depending on your point of view), so don't worry that'll you'll open it up to a giant nipple or something like that hehe
Muff Wiggler
and oh yeah - i'm sure you've all realized this but -

there's no way in hell i would ever use a muffwiggler.com email address or reference to my website in any fashion whatsoever connected with my job!

i've got proper, professional appearing email addresses for that stuff

and my name, in real life, isn't "muff wiggler" wink

if i could have, i would have voted once for every single option in the above poll. i agree with them all.
Chuck E. Jesus
this is your site...i imagine if people don't like it, they don't have to visit...i'm not sure what someone said to even bring this topic up, but i don't see how "muff wiggler" is considered offensive while discussing "butt probes"...tbh i do feel a bit worried about offending others lately on the interweb *, and i see your point, but again, this is your site...




* notice i did not use my "alter-ego" name on your site
felix
Hahaha, love the new forum title!

I'm always very surprised by the sheer volume of easily offended people on the internet...I mean, it's the internet! 75% or more of it has to be arguably offensive.

Or maybe people just see that something could be offensive, are bent out of shape that someone could be offended, and suddenly they have to be the "feelings police" and say they are offended. I see lots of offensive stuff, but I don't think any of it has offended me.
zerosum
I think its a funny play on words.
Although a lot of people dont know what a Big MUFF or a wiggler is lol
Or who EHX is........ lol
Or what effects are... lol

I guess mine would have to be scrotum flanger or something like that...
zerosum
Quote:
and my name, in real life, isn't "muff wiggler"

lol
felix
agonizing scrotum probe
Chuck E. Jesus
what does NSFW mean anyway?
felix
Not Safe For Work
Chuck E. Jesus
felix wrote:
Not Safe For Work


i swera i seen that a shitload of times and never knew what it meant...


btw: Muff Wiggler has got a Sticky Poll...
shamann
ross g wrote:
btw: Muff Wiggler has got a Sticky Poll...


lol


One of the top subjects around these parts is Metasonix gear. Seriously, Muff Wiggler is going to be offensive to Metasonix fans? If anything, it needs to be a little racier.
tiny333
im a bit vagley disapointed that it is not your real name razz
J.w.M.
Haha! Interesting topic--
Anyway, I'm not offended at all. I can see how people might find it (slightly) offensive, but in my eyes (like you said), I totally chose to be here, and if I don't like it, I don't have to be here. As such, it's no big deal to me at all.

As a side-note, the memorable name actually made this site stick in my mind when I was first searching around the internet for Frac system info. In a way, then, the humorously crass name might have been responsible in a big way for me actually sticking around this site at first.
consumed
ross g wrote:
what does NSFW mean anyway?


Not Safe For Wiggling
Chuck E. Jesus
consumed wrote:
ross g wrote:
what does NSFW mean anyway?


Not Safe For Wiggling


now there's your site title, whatever the hell your name is...
Muff Wiggler
tiny333 wrote:
im a bit vagley disapointed that it is not your real name razz


yeah, sorry.

It's Wuff Miggler.

I'm german. Say it with a german accent. The "Wuff" part sounds more like "Woof".

Wuff Heinrich Miggler. That's me.
Kwote
Muff Wiggler wrote:
don't worry that'll you'll open it up to a giant nipple or something like that hehe


the giant nipple thing sounds HIGHLY offensive. however, a GIANT NIPPLE with milk squirting out of it sounds DEEEELISHHHH.
tiny333
we are all idiots :shock:
Muff Wiggler
zerosum
There are words in the English language that trigger pictures in people minds that usually differ from what it means.

Top three I can think of right now:
"I'm from New Mexico I am inspired by the work of adult swim and like to post audio examples of what excites on the forum at muffwiggler.com."

Which somehow got translated into
"I'm a mexican thats into porn!"

Its funny, even in Arizona(well these people arent from here) people don't know where New Mexico is and only hear "mexico", as for adult swim,
I'm still amazed at how many people still don't know what that is,
Muff Wiggler, well that is easy for the distracted mind to come up with
things all sorts of things related to perverseness lol

I'm sure cartoon network gets LOTS of flack when parents see the word "adult" on the cartoon channel.
I'm sure they have had similar discussions like the ones in this thread.

That said, go watch Assy Mcgee:
http://www.adultswim.com/video/index.html

That is definitely the funniest one I have ever seen....
J.w.M.
Yep-- at the risk of veering terribly off-topic... New Mexico = The Texas/Arizona border.

Seriously, though, people really seem to forget that NM is in the USA sometimes.

As for Adult Swim... Robot Chicken is one of the joys of my life.
Kent
I guess that if:

• you know nothing about Electro-Harmonix (especially their '70s era ad campaigns)
• you believe that your personal emotional reaction to external stimuli should govern the actions of others
• you were raised to believe that people are inherently evil

Then you'd have problems with the name of an audio/synth forum.

You even used the correct fonts. I got the allusion right away. Funny shit.
Muff Wiggler
Kent wrote:
I guess that if:

• you know nothing about Electro-Harmonix (especially their '70s era ad campaigns)
• you believe that your personal emotional reaction to external stimuli should govern the actions of others
• you were raised to believe that people are inherently evil

Then you'd have problems with the name of an audio/synth forum.

You even used the correct fonts. I got the allusion right away. Funny shit.



awesome 8) that's pretty much exactly how I feel!

thanks Kent!
Kwote
damn this post makes me feel old. can you believe we were all here since last december.
eyehue
i really thought you were just a huge electro-harmonix fan when i first saw the name.
zerosum
HEHEHE Well its blocked at work now hihi
Unless, they just randomly just decided to block all sites I visited because I should be "working" or something lol

I'll try again monday and see if I can get on...
Kwote
zerosum wrote:
HEHEHE Well its blocked at work now hihi
Unless, they just randomly just decided to block all sites I visited because I should be "working" or something lol

I'll try again monday and see if I can get on...


maybe it's not blocked. try ass-spelunkers.com first. if that's blocked then it's confirmed.
chamomileshark
You know, I genuinely thought it was because you were involved in sound recording for films/tv and you had one of those big furry mics they have to hold above people or push through crowds at interview.
Muff Wiggler
chamomileshark wrote:
You know, I genuinely thought it was because you were involved in sound recording for films/tv and you had one of those big furry mics they have to hold above people or push through crowds at interview.


lol
JohnLRice
You can't get much more official than Merriam Webster:
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/muff[1]
Muff: a warm tubular covering for the hands

Yeeeeup! Sounds about right! lol
wetterberg
certainly does arouse the senses! grrrrrrr! love hyper



Side-bar: thankfully the danish version of the word "muff" is a lot easier to google.... eek!
citizen mori
i believe it is a fine filter to keep out the incredibly bored.
Muff Wiggler
citizen mori wrote:
i believe it is a fine filter to keep out the incredibly bored.


damn right it is. good catch.
Waz
Personally, When I first saw the forum on AH I never thought of it as a non-PC name. Just some guy making a forum with a goofy name. I thought of it as your "handle". When I talk about stuff in the forums IRL we all call it "Muff's".
parasitk
Waz wrote:
When I talk about stuff in the forums IRL we all call it "Muff's".


Ditto. "...blah blah blah over at Muff's forum..."
Muff Wiggler
Yeah I tend to think of it as "Muff's" as well, that's what everyone says.

Except my kids, which call it, explicitly, every time, "Muff's Modules And More".

"Hey Dad, how long ago did you start Muff's Modules And More?"

"Where do you know Kent from? Muff's Modules And More?"

"Did you get that module from someone at Muff's Modules And More?"

it's pretty funny.
felix
I think a modular bar is in order.

"Muff's" sounds like it would be a rad bar. Beer + modulars.

Guinness ftw!
Kent
Muff Wiggler wrote:

"Where do you know Kent from? Muff's Modules And More?"


You don't actually tell them that we met during the course of a "mutually consenting adults' paid transaction" do you?
peh
ok, muff wiggler is totally inoffensive as far as i am concerned but what gets me is that there exist people who seem offended by the fact that they might find at some point come across (ooo err missus) something offensive? how dull do they want their lives to be???

anyway, top marks to danelctro for the FAB Flange byline "no it's not a compliment" hihi
otherunicorn
Well, a muff is a thing for keeping hands warm, or ears warm. A wiggler is a form of bait. Oh my I'm so offended! Seriously, offense is usually found by those with the dirtiest minds.
bwhittington
This thread is great and totally worthy of a six-month old bump.

-The name cracks me up, personally.
-If I told my mother or a date that I was a member of the muffwiggler forum, I would have more explaining to do than I would care for.
-I'm pretty surprised no porn site has offered you mega-$$$ for the url, because it's that naughty.

Cheers,
Brian
dude
fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck.


never done that,

had to.
dadek
Where's the Muff's Babe's thread at?

hmmm.....
MindMachine
A Muff Wiggler is a novelty adult device I use similar
to the e-bow I use on my guitar... or is it the new fishing
lure my cousin Jimmie bought me? Works either way I suppose...

As to the original thread question: There are huge billboards with
strippers on them along the sides of Los Angeles Freeways. I
think that we should be more concerned by them than the name
of a dork cultist obscure musical intrument site on the giant worldwide
web of bad porn and bad spelling. And for crying out loud - this is
about the best of the best as far as these types of forums go. No
B.S. - just the modulars!!!! Dinner at the Y Champagne Dinner at the Y
suitandtieguy
bwhittington wrote:
-If I told my mother or a date that I was a member of the muffwiggler forum, I would have more explaining to do than I would care for.


funny, it never struck me the least bit dirty, and my mom's never so much as batted an eye when i mention Mr Wiggles and his forum.
bwhittington
It's motherfucking bacon yo
bwhittington
whoopsie . . . double post.
a100user
Somehow I missed this thread

Anyway added my vote = it rocks

Personally I find most PC correctness a pain in the butt.

My own moral tenets do not allow me to discriminate against anyone but that doesn't mean I shouldn't be able to say things I believe to be true.

If folks here want to swear that's fine. Let's face it this is an interest group that is dominated by adults.
Mr White
lol
on the elektron forum I'm under the name "ANALOG VAGINA", just a fist of posts and the moderator told me that their forum is too "sweet and polite" for such a user name....
I told him that I came from Muffwiggler and he said: "oh, that's great!"
lol

sincerly, I taken it for a compliment!

ps:
he he he, I voted for "muff rocks"!
I love this place where we all can express ourself how the fuck we want and be all happy with that!
so DONT piss me off polite girls! Peter Grenader
cv slime 800
I thought MUFF stood for: "Modular User's Funny Forum" meh
alexP
We should have a Canadian Muff wiggler night out. Maybe if we can all meet in Ottawa for beer, modulars, and did I mention beer?

Not going to lie, that could be pretty amazing. Sort of like our own little AH Canada meetup!!!!


alexP

ps This forum definitely rocks.
premieklovn
I'm not offended at all. I'm more offended by people who thinks the name is offensive.
Babaluma
dadek wrote:
Where's the Muff's Babe's thread at?

hmmm.....


i'm more interested in where i can see the babe's muffs! wink
revmutt
I think the Wiggler part is a little tough on EH purists.
Peake
I'd wondered a bit about it and am happy that I was correct- it is indeed a term both (silly) sexual AND Electro-Harmonix (who took the cake for such things, at the time).

Not offensive at all. What would be offensive are those without enough of a sense of humor about it...amusing that it became a positive conversation piece smile
modularland
harmless- but not the best branding for the best community of musicians in the last 100 years.... would be better as 'diode wiggler' more subtle humor :-)
nerdware
I just assumed it refered to a cat thing. Cats really like it when you stroke the fur on the top of their heads. Now, if that fur can be called a muff, and the gesture can be called wiggling...

No, not even remotely offensive. Obscure, yes. Feline, definitely!

Anyway, synths and muff wiggling (as defined above) go together for me, coz I experience a similar level of bliss when I'm twiddling synth knobs.
money bags
all i have to say is to hell with 'BEING' PC.

if you are talking about the only black guy in the room. just say 'the only black guy in the room'.


Something i dont miss about the west coast is how PC people are. DONT CALL ME BIG BONDED unless you now big by BONE is. I'm FAT


uahh i need to sleep i hope this makes someone cry
Kent
O.K. Imagine the Worse Case Scenario: It stands for some immaterial offensive act/thing... And what if it was meant to infer whatever it could be that could be deemed 'offensive'... did anyone die? Did anyone have a worse day because of it?

If so, that person needs more than what this forum can offer.
darenager
Not at all offensive, great name, great forum.


And to all those "PC" people, grow up and get a Mac lol
Celtic Peasant
Clap Muff I think you have an awesome forum and, having been on other forums, I really think you are the best moderator I have seen.
thumbs up

"Muff Wiggler" offensive - never. I never thought of it as anything other than a really cool and catchy name!!

I know it was a few years ago, but thanks for sharing the 'beginnings' of the name and your site with everyone. smile

Take care,
Zoie
neandrewthal
I'm offended by the thought of entertaining the idea that Muff Wiggler might be offensive SMACK!
Just me
As a newbie, I'm just going through the old posts. It's funny, but the first time I heard of MuffWiggler, I thought of old EH stompboxes. I've had so many of them over the years and have done the same sort of thing with the names. Used StoneFinger once years ago. It (the forum) could be called Uterine Vomit or Supporating Pustule for all I care, the content is great.
Liddlepud
It's never really made any sense to me. I always thought that wiggling applies to something that protrudes like a joystick. A muff is an opening and doesn't protude so how do you wiggle it?
MrBiggs
Liddlepud wrote:
It's never really made any sense to me. I always thought that wiggling applies to something that protrudes like a joystick. A muff is an opening and doesn't protude so how do you wiggle it?



eek! help

Um, I have some porn I could send you...
Dr. Sketch-n-Etch
I think the name is pretty funny. The only time it gave me reason to pause was when I recently gave a presentation on synth DIY to the "Arts Science" class at my daughter's high school. (It's a science class for kids in the arts program, in case you're wondering -- a perfect opportunity to talk about synth DIY, complete with a powerpoint presentation and a hands-on modular demonstration). Anyway, on the last slide of my presentation, I had listed a bunch of cool web resources for anyone interested in synth DIY (MFOS, Catgirl, Electro-Music, and... Muff Wiggler). I wasn't sure how that was going to play to a room full of 15-year-olds (and their teacher) but I made a mild little joke out of it, and it was fine. (Truth be told, I'm not even sure anyone there understood the reference... innocent little darlings).
vav
Re: Is it offensive?

I hope so.

Also, my fiance at one point was yelling at me because i spent too much time on the wrong muff.
The_Crooked_Man
I stumbled upon this site after being reprimanded on Gearslutz for making a sexually suggestive comment about a piece of gear, so imagine my surprise to find that not only is there a site named after such a thing, but it's also dedicated to synthesizers AND cats! A match made in heaven, I must say.

As a side note, the funniest thing that I've heard in a good long time was the other day when my girlfriend said something to the effect of, "would it absolutely kill you to spend 5 fewer minutes per day on that vagina smacking, cat fucker site of yours and do the dishes?!"
Dick Champion
Just fell over this as I was surfing the gold mine that is Muff Wiggler.

In my mind the verb for patching a modular synthesizer is "to wiggle".
I guess that says a great deal about what Muff has meant for the synth community.

And a Muff could far fetched BE a modular... though I'm familiar with EH stompboxes and own a Big Muff, the word Muff actually is a name here in Denmark.
In fact it's my girlfriends middlename. She gets a lot of requests on Skype for private conversations.

But i'd hate to be the teenager searching for porn and ending up watching a video with James Cigler patching a Wogglebug...
If anything it is offensive to the hardcore porn fans out there. Soapbox

Trivia:
BYOC version of Big Muff is called Large Beaver. I like that.

DC
Hanz
The_Crooked_Man wrote:
I stumbled upon this site after being reprimanded on Gearslutz for making a sexually suggestive comment about a piece of gear?


Now really, that is a grand case of irony.
I mean, gearslutz or muff wiggler - you pick the most offensive name...
Lord I know which site I hide first if somebody walks into my room.

Personally, I like the Muff Wiggler name just fine, I find it witty and typical of the forum attitude here.
But that's maybe also because it struck the Electro Harmonix vibe with me. Big fan of EH here - pc'ness aside, why don't they just branch out into modulars? I'd buy a full rack of that stuff without thinking twice. Mmmmm!
Tobor
my fiance said to me: "what? you surf a site with that name, you dirty pornographer!!!!"

my answer:

"dear, you know what a wiggler is? It is a series of magnets designed to periodically laterally deflect ('wiggle') a beam of charged particles! and a muff is a fashion accessory, usually of fur, for keeping the hands warm... therefore this site talks of furry nice synchrotrons"...

end of the questioning...
hihi
Enginear
I have frequently heard Steve Winwood's brother "Muff" being talked about on FM radio here in Canada.
Given what the CRTC (our bone-headed regulator) did to Dire Straights over Money for Nothing recently for its reference to a type of rustic English meatball, I can only conclude that Muff is not at all offensive!

Anyways, those that can be offended by a simple word have bigger problems than those that use the words, IMHO!!
doofa beena
i always thought it was a reference to the female anatomy,
seeing as how there are so many cats around here!!
d
budz
I say go with the muff. It's more comical than offensive.. it reminds me of a game in a certain comedy series called 'cock muff bumhole', kinda like scissors/paper/stone but a bit more amusing w00t
legionhwp
Well historically EH was pretty much B@lls in your face un-PC so if the name of the forum is based on that then I think the question kind of answers itself.

The twist comes in the nostalgia of naming this site in the 2000s after a 1970s effect pedal (back when man was analog and times were good for it). So in a way using a potentially "offensive" name taken from a time that conjures up such warm and fuzzy memories for electronic music freaks is actually kind of sweet now.

FWIW my ex stole all my comics and pins from my way huge pedals because she just loved that we geeks called pedals names like a "Swollen Pickle" or "Fat Sandwich" let alone a Big Muff Pi. Or "Way Huge" for that matter smile
Muff Wiggler
^^^^^^ this
bar|none
Lock the thread we are done here. lol
rico loverde
its refreshing to me to see a bit of humor. I personally don't understand how its degrading to women. both men and women have muff, and both could wiggle their muffs. although i think men can probably wiggle a little better hihi , well maybe more is the better word. hmmm.....

maybe im missing something but i don't really get the offensiveness of it. i live in a town that prides itself on being pc and honestly as much as i believe in political correctness i get tired of it being shoved down my throat.

i think it is a perfect name soley based on the fact that it shows we have a sense of humor here. life is too short to take so serious. were playing with synths not saving the world.
Babaluma
i used to find it offensive but i grew to love it.

lol
whitewulfe
At first I was all "whuuuh?", then when I spent some time around... I kinda laugh and whatnot about the name...
darwingrosse
It's a little hard when you are trying to reference material or community matters in an academic circle. I know most people don't give a fuck about that, but this has become one of the most significant locations for current modular system information - and the PC world of academics doesn't really care for it (or requires me to surround every discussion with a bunch of disclaimers...).

Sorry, and I'll crawl back in my hole now.
Muff Wiggler
darwingrosse wrote:
and the PC world of academics doesn't really care for it


so in other words "it worked!!" hihi
Fitvideo
I was going to form a band called the Muff Pistols...might still do

not in the least bit offensive


http://www.ctmuzzleloaders.com/antique_guns/muff_pistols/muff_pist.htm l


Always wanted to go on stage , and announce "we are the Muff Pistols"

regards

Fitvideo
arrmcbain
Love the forum name. It's funny and the origins sound innocent enough.

But the new image on the home page is a bit off. (the one with the guitar)

Maybe it was intended to be funny or ironic or whatever, but I think it's disrespectful towards women.
Muff Wiggler
dude
JRock
arrmcbain wrote:
Love the forum name. It's funny and the origins sound innocent enough.

But the new image on the home page is a bit off. (the one with the guitar)

Maybe it was intended to be funny or ironic or whatever, but I think it's disrespectful towards women.


You Dick!
apertureburn
at work when I have enough windows open and I'm on analog haven's sight, it just says "anal" in the taskbar.

between that and this site I've taken up changing browser tabs and minimizing quickly smile
ssilk
having read the origins of the name, I'm sorry to say that I was a little bit disappointed... I was always kind of hoping "muff" was some inside joke among modular enthusiasts, and I finally I was going to be in on it! dammit
notimeforlove
The name doesn't bother me, but I usually refer to it as "Muff's Forum"

My Girlfriend snickers every time I say it.
Microscopial
hey isnt it lucky you didnt go for muff diver, that might have got you in trouble lol and beaver snatcher may have been a bit more offensive,, but seriously if people who really have a very limited time on this world are worried about a name ,then what a waste of bloody oxygen, and they should crawl crawl crawl away you know where cheers ross applause applause applause
essex sound lab
If I don't mention any posts from here or what's going on with you guys to my GF for awhile, she ultimately asks "Hey, have you been on Muff's lately?".

Hadn't ever occurred to me how funny that might sound to the uninitiated.
dslocum
I want to vote for the last four out of six choices:

It's immature/stupid, but harmless
I don't care either way
It's pretty funny! But I see the other side as well
I think it rocks!

THERE. Fuck you all! Guinness ftw! hyper hihi screaming goo yo SlayerBadger! lol 8_)
tehyar
And here I thought you just liked to twiddle the knobs on a fuzzy lowpass filter. Now I'm offended.

This is fun! thumbs up
Morley
Of course it's offensive!
Now, fuck off
Mr. Green
apemandan
I'm english so find anything even mildly smutty hilarious.

Who on earth could take offense? anybody who has spent 5 minutes on here would know there is no bigoted intention..

however, if you need an alternative...how about Fanny Warbler????

(sorry)

Dead Banana
dawgphayce
No need to change it!
KindredSpirit
No idea what it means.......honestly! So not bothered either way
orangecookie
I recognized the reference to the two pedals, so initially wondered if the forum was going to be mostly about pedals, not modular synths. Although I've noticed that there are a few modules that are named in the "spirit" of some guitar pedals, I'm happy enough that most of them are just descriptive and not trying too much to be clever/cute, etc.
shamann
orangecookie wrote:
so initially wondered if the forum was going to be mostly about pedals, not modular synths

When we first started around here, there was a lot more talk about guitars and pedals than there is now.
orangecookie
shamann wrote:
orangecookie wrote:
so initially wondered if the forum was going to be mostly about pedals, not modular synths

When we first started around here, there was a lot more talk about guitars and pedals than there is now.


Makes more sense to me now, thanks!
slow_riot
i find it offensive. in theory calling the forum peniswanker or cockstroker should carry the same meaning but in reality peniswanker is offensive and digsuting and muffwiggler is a big mutual masculine high five about great it is touching women. i don't think society permits women to express those sentiments without them being frowned on or seen as dirty whereas it's perfectly fine for men.


anyways I have an internet handle that i chose when I was 17 and didn't change so I know how that goes.
Babaluma
slow_riot wrote:
i find it offensive. in theory calling the forum peniswanker or cockstroker should carry the same meaning but in reality peniswanker is offensive and digsuting and muffwiggler is a big mutual masculine high five about great it is touching women. i don't think society permits women to express those sentiments without them being frowned on or seen as dirty whereas it's perfectly fine for men.


in know it's meant to be light-hearted, but i find it offensive too, always have done. i've always been ashamed to mention the "muffwiggler" forum to people too. not sure what that says about me. lol doesn't look like there are too many of us who voted for the first option!

having said that, please don't check my first post in this thread...

waah

oops
whitewulfe
At first, I found it slightly offensive... But after a while, I'm even telling coworkers about it now and they're getting a good laugh about it ^_^
vasculator
You people must have some thin skin.

a) nobody forces you to come here in the same way that nobody forces you to go to any porn sites, sites about racist ideas, or any number of potentially 'offensive' things. you have the wonderful choice to not come to this 'offensive' site.

b) seriously, and i do mean this, start your own forum that isn't offensive. seriously go and start your own very safe forum you can mention to people in public and feel fine about. or go to electro-music. better skip gearslutz tho.

c) i hate that this thread has lately turned into the 'first post so i can search' thread because people don't typically have anything else to contribute when they first join.
shamann
From The Big Muff History:

Quote:
One of these was the Muff Fuzz, an analog two transistor fuzz pedal. Matthews named it a “muff” because in his words it had a “funky, soft, muffled sound.”


If it helps avoid the embarrassment (!), just remind people the origin of the name. Sure there's a schoolyard double entendre in the name of this place, but it's pretty harmless as those things go. This, however:

"i don't think society permits women to express those sentiments without them being frowned on or seen as dirty whereas it's perfectly fine for men"

...is what I might describe as just a bit over the top.
vasculator
shamann wrote:
From The Big Muff History:

Quote:
One of these was the Muff Fuzz, an analog two transistor fuzz pedal. Matthews named it a “muff” because in his words it had a “funky, soft, muffled sound.”


If it helps avoid the embarrassment (!), just remind people the origin of the name. Sure there's a schoolyard double entendre in the name of this place, but it's pretty harmless as those things go. This, however:

"i don't think society permits women to express those sentiments without them being frowned on or seen as dirty whereas it's perfectly fine for men"

...is what I might describe as just a bit over the top.


Exactly. When I mention it to my parents I just refer to it as Cervix Pulser. Saves time.
slow_riot
shamann wrote:

"i don't think society permits women to express those sentiments without them being frowned on or seen as dirty whereas it's perfectly fine for men"

...is what I might describe as just a bit over the top.


do you think that it would be possible to have a forum called cockstroker and for no-one to bat an eyelid, and to have women talk about how great touching penis' is like the talk in lots of threads here? booty wiggler

btw, just so there's no confusion I'm not complaining about the forum or about Mike. Just answering the question in this thead.
machetemirage
I've always thought it to be a sort of reversal of the phrase "knob twiddler".
shamann
slow_riot wrote:
do you think that it would be possible to have a forum called cockstroker and for no-one to bat an eyelid


I don't know, is there a fuzz pedal called the Big Cock Pi? If there is, then I guess the forum name would make sense.
cholopink
Big Cock PI?

I buy it!!!
Ray Diode
Hey, if Moogerfooger is ok, Muff Wiggler is even more so
SlayerBadger!
jkjelec
I wouldn't say anything if no one asked, but this thread asks, so...I agree with Babaluma.

Hey, you asked! seriously, i just don't get it
glitchpop
It's not offensive to me but I can totally see that it could be offensive to others. How about the gender neutral "Genital Fiddler"? Rockin' Banana!
mcg1103
I was referred to this site by another site and I was not sure if I should go while at work based on the name!
Muff Wiggler
i have no problem with that - you're supposed to be working! w00t
MR-808
They're just words. PC people can go fuck themselves.
decaying.sine
mcg1103 wrote:
I was referred to this site by another site and I was not sure if I should go while at work based on the name!


NSFW

nitro2k01
You call that NSFW?

slow_riot
MR-808 wrote:
They're just words. PC people can go fuck themselves.


yes, just like racist words are just words. it's not like they're intimately connected to society, suffering and injustice or anything. whatever you need to tell yourself to make you feel better about yourself.
decaying.sine
nitro2k01 wrote:
You call that NSFW?



lol
causticlogic
At first the name kind of confused me, but then I kind of figured it out after awhile.
A couple months back though my wife all of a sudden screams out "what the hell is muffwiggle?!" I explained that it was that synth site I was on all the time and showed her a couple random pages and tried to explain the name. That was awkward.
She just kind of rolls hear eyes at it now. meh I guess I could see how someone might take offense initially but I don't see a problem with it overall.
acealive
tbh, I don't even know what 'muff wiggler' means. Google tranbslate doesn't translate it well to German.
I thought it might have to do with muffins ?
no clue. not a native speaker here.
Reality Checkpoint
acealive wrote:
tbh, I don't even know what 'muff wiggler' means. Google tranbslate doesn't translate it well to German.
I thought it might have to do with muffins ?
no clue. not a native speaker here.


I think that the origin lies with 2 famous Electro Harmonix guitar pedals, the Muff fuzz pedal, and the Wiggler tube vibrato/tremolo pedal. Other than that I should not really comment on a further derivation of muff, but see here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muff (hint: the slang terms section!!) and here: http://www.thefreedictionary.com/wiggle and then perhaps you can draw your own conclusions!! thumbs up hihi

Anyway, you have come to a wonderful place. Welcome! w00t
slovo
For the record, I've always found it sly and yet dated enough to be "cute" more than offensive. My wife agrees. It sounds dancy, tricksy, and fun, certainly with an air of male bravado, but not really explicit or gruesome. Had it been my idea, I would have gone with something far grosser, but I never had the idea, and so it remains one of the coolest, most stylish slang portmanteaus I've bumped into on the internet.
e-grad
Nicholas Neal
Well at least we can most all agree that a dance floor is not a dance floor with out the appropriate type of wiggle involved. As for being PC it comes down to freedom of choice. If you find it offensive to the point of disgust then there are other forums that may not have such a risque name. It can be viewed from either side though. It seems more of a homage rather than slanderous. Sure we are all here to exchange ideas about modularity, but in the end it all boils down to creating something that will enchant a certain wiggling to occur. Or perhaps you have lost sight and have been consumed by the modular monster whose voltages have gained control of your synapses and you cant even remember the last time you made anything wiggle save for your knob.
acealive
Reality Checkpoint wrote:
acealive wrote:
tbh, I don't even know what 'muff wiggler' means. Google tranbslate doesn't translate it well to German.
I thought it might have to do with muffins ?
no clue. not a native speaker here.


I think that the origin lies with 2 famous Electro Harmonix guitar pedals, the Muff fuzz pedal, and the Wiggler tube vibrato/tremolo pedal. Other than that I should not really comment on a further derivation of muff, but see here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muff (hint: the slang terms section!!) and here: http://www.thefreedictionary.com/wiggle and then perhaps you can draw your own conclusions!! thumbs up hihi

Anyway, you have come to a wonderful place. Welcome! w00t


thx, I see. learning new words every day, hehe.

Well, being PC is not something we care about here, so I leave that discussion to you Amercians now wink
shreddoggie
for me this is one of the few (only?) places on the idiotic internet where I don't have to be 'concerned' if my opinions will offend anyone or if some sort of idiotic ongoing feud will ensue. I am very pleased that people post how they feel without some pansy assed correctness --- I am tempted to change my signature file to:

"Why do people speak so highly of the TRUTH since they get so unhappy when they are confronted with it"

There are a few dorks on muffs who get all pissy when there is something they don't like said but generally it seems to be a pretty irreverent bunch of brilliant people. It's OK to hate cos lots of shit is shit.
deltaphoenix
Cool reading the Muff Wiggler history.
textual
I assumed with the cat photos that it pertained to some sort of feline bestiality.. 8_) not offended either way, and it was nice to see the actual history. I would vote but as I do not have 25 posts yet.. i cannot. thumbs up
ElectroSteam
True Story(TM): In Danish we have a word, 'muffe', which is the pipe shaped widget you can use for connecting either wires or pipes end-to-end through crimping. Until I discovered this thread, I had unconsciously assigned the - incorrect - electrical connection to the English slang term 'muff' as well, and assumed the site name was some form of word play suggesting wiggling/tweaking wires, knobs, etc. Sounded about right to me. oops

Think I'd better try and remember the different meanings of the two words for future reference... Mr. Green
filmersam
This seems to ring true as I read through the thread!

Savage
I don't find Muff Wiggler offensive at all. But then, what do I know? I'm Savage. hihi

Edit: BTW, I have a Big Muff Pi in my pedal rig, and I wiggle with it. Does that make me offensive? Oh, damn, I hope so!
Volt Hugger
I'm just getting started in modular and it helped me remember the name of the forum. I'd guess that to be true for some other folks too.
FetidEye
a forum for knob wigglers, patch freaks and cat lovers.

anyone who post here for more than a few months can feel how friendly and nice this place is. I love it.
I also very much like the humor of the people here.

i can't imagine why muffwiggler can be found offensive if you take this in perspective.
bbow73
it was a little awkward at first, telling my wife about how much fun I have on 'Muffwiggler'
IR
I was lurking for a while because I kept getting referred by search engines, and I found many discussions interesting.

I got kind of confused when I saw mention of "wigglers". Never looked in the URL, so I had to look it up, didn't find anything. I thought it was some kind of synth slang term or something.

Later I thought it was the names of the cats.

I can see why it could be seen as offensive, but I didn't think about it. Anyways, "muff" is not used as commonly, not so much after the 1970s or 1980s I think.
mikecameron
Muff Wiggler wrote:
So one night at practise, between songs, we're talking about the name thing. I look down at all the guitar and FX pedals on the floor - there was a lot of Electro-Harmonix stuff down there! For some reason, two of them stood out to me, the "Big Muff Pi", and "The Wiggler".

I looked at them, and blurted out "Muff Wiggler!"



Reading this, it reminded me that a buddy of mine has some diy clone pedal he refers to as "Poon Boost" slightly more offensive than muff wiggler, but in the same vein at least.

heh.. poon boost. hihi
IR
What about the Way Huge Electronics Swollen Pickle and the Z.Vex Super Hard-On?
analog_backlash
I would have voted for the immature but harmless category here, but as I have posted less than 25 times, I can't...

Something has just occurred to me though. It looks like all of the major British ISPs will be introducing an opt-in to porn system, possibly later this year. I wonder if this will stop me logging on to this site, in the mistaken belief that "Muffwiggler" must be a porn site? Come to that, analog_backlash starts with "anal", so will I even be able to use my own moniker eek! confused
pixelmechanic
Muff Wiggler wrote:

Ok, there's one case - years ago, long before I had a website, or a blog, or a forum, one small comment was made. "Muff Wiggler" has been my handle (nickname) on varous web forums for a few years now. At one point, on a music-software forum, a well-known male member said something along the lines of "And I've always found your handle to be offensive and degrading to women".


What I love about this thread is that (seemingly, since I searched on it), no-one has pointed out that (in the sentence above):

Male member = knob joke (and so much funnier for being a well known one)

Handle = knob joke (and so much funnier given the context it appears in)
pskept
sounds like some pc faggots should quit their crying woah

anyone going to be mad at the handle cocksucker? yes, someone who has deep rooted sexual issues that they need to come to terms with. we human beings sure do get uptight about all these words we invented.
Muff Wiggler
pskept wrote:
sounds like some pc faggots should quit their crying woah

anyone going to be mad at the handle cocksucker? yes, someone who has deep rooted sexual issues that they need to come to terms with. we human beings sure do get uptight about all these words we invented.


Um, read the rules.

Ironic that given the stance you APPEAR to be trying to take you are actually the rare one in this thread who is getting his panties all in a bunch over what other people think. Name calling, homophobic comments, bigotry aren't welcome here. You won't be warned again. angry
BadBadger
Because everyone I've mentioned this site to simply repeats the name and giggles, I began to wonder just how out of hand your name might have gotten had a different set of stompboxes been on the floor. So I found this:

www.talkbass.com/forum/f36/101-best-stompboxes-all-time-guitarist-maga zine-730781/

It took me all of 2 minutes to come up with BrownFuzzMistress. oops And another 2 to come up with HugeBallsDisaster and HotPussSexSustainer. eek!

I think MuffWiggler is tame in comparison.
waggles
"what is muff wiggler and should you be looking at it at work?" meh
waggles
"what is muff wiggler and should you be looking at it at work?" meh
Amberclock
BadBadger wrote:
And another 2 to come up with HugeBallsDisaster and HotPussSexSustainer.


That made me laugh. Hard.

That all thing puts yet another layer of funny to me, because I had to actually google "muff urban dictionary" to see why it can be offensive. hihi

And even if I did know that from the start, hell, I play in a band called Adolf Plays the Jazz. Bring it on. 8)
timmcg
[/s]Not at all offensive; quite cute IMHO. And here I was going to use my usual handle of Numbnutz but thought I may get booted off the board. Glad to have found this site, seeing as other than synthesis and my wife and cat... I have no life.
filtermod
Hell, I thought it was the name of a module or a specific type of patch! (No, I'm not so naive that I didn't get the innuendo as well lol )
I don't see why anyone should be uptight about it. At least you didn't call the forum "Gangrenous Penis".
Amberclock
filtermod wrote:
Hell, I thought it was the name of a module or a specific type of patch! (No, I'm not so naive that I didn't get the innuendo as well lol )
I don't see why anyone should be uptight about it. At least you didn't call the forum "Gangrenous Penis".


That would most probably be a name of a grindcore/pornogrind gear forum!
AudioFetish
I find it so hard to comprehend people getting offended by stuff like muffwiggler, I've never really cared if people find what I say as offensive. I find so much of the world hideously offensive and have to suck it up daily. If I can do it so can other people

twisted
bg1979
i don't think the name is offensive but more "out of touch" and doesn't set a particularly inviting tone in a niche world that can be a bit of an old boys club

obviously this is a great board with wonderful helpful people, but as the community grows and becomes more mainstream i think it may have outgrown the name

it's not about being overly PC or thin skinned or easily offended, it's just about a level playing field that doesn't set a certain tone off the top

i know the answer from some people to comments like mine is "if someone doesn't like it they can go somewhere else! noone forces you to get helpful modular information from this site", which is obviously true but is that really the attitude/sentiment that people here think is worth sticking to as this "scene" grows to (hopefully) include more women?
smonkey
I'm a bit confused,
its winter here in New York,
and snowing out,
muffs are just a good idea.

Keep the hands warm

muff1
məf/
noun
noun: muff; plural noun: muffs

1.
a tube made of fur or other warm material into which the hands are placed for warmth.



and it takes a bit of a wiggle to get into it.

I mean...how is that offensive?

some people.

Now where did I put that fanny pack?
Flux302
Can u post another potion to the pole please " mildly offended that anyone would be offended by the name muffwiggler ".
raisinbag
Wow this is the first time I have read mr muffs naming story. Ya know what, I share the same set of values and humor ( as you can tell from my name which has its own silly story and has been my handle since the mid 90's and I'm sure people make their own little judgments about that). Anyway, I read this thread because I seems the forum is having some growing pains and it sad ends me to see. I really enjoy this place, I have learned so much in such a short time and have even made some, dare i say , friends. I can't really solve the current problems but can voice my oppinions to muff and admins that there is a fine line between funny and hurt. Do what you guys/ girls need to do to solve the issues. This place should be fun and welcoming and definitely not abusive and hurtful. Thanks to all behind the scenes. Happy holidays. Mr bag.
CJ Miller
bg1979 wrote:
i don't think the name is offensive but more "out of touch" and doesn't set a particularly inviting tone in a niche world that can be a bit of an old boys club


Out of touch with whom? There has been a lot of ruminating lately about the forum supposedly being heavily stilted towards the male demographic. But where's the evidence? Our profiles don't include and gender details. So, I'd say this is mostly a factor of guesswork and insecurity.

bg1979 wrote:
obviously this is a great board with wonderful helpful people, but as the community grows and becomes more mainstream i think it may have outgrown the name


Well, firstly, I don't believe in the concept of "mainstream". There are billions of people out there, who live in billions of different ways. Consider that the forum can barely cope with the load of how many members there are now! And if people join us because of the character of the forum, then why change it's character and identity? Why mess with success? I'd say we are welcoming new members as frequently as we can handle.

bg1979 wrote:
it's not about being overly PC or thin skinned or easily offended, it's just about a level playing field that doesn't set a certain tone off the top

i know the answer from some people to comments like mine is "if someone doesn't like it they can go somewhere else! noone forces you to get helpful modular information from this site", which is obviously true but is that really the attitude/sentiment that people here think is worth sticking to as this "scene" grows to (hopefully) include more women?


I think "tone" is a slippery quantity to base such decisions upon. What does "Muff Wiggler" even mean? Can you explain it? Have you considered the obvious possibility that the forum may have this name precisely because it is run by and for women?

The only person I know IRL who is a member here is my ex-wife. She mostly lurks, but she says that she loves the name. Doesn't know what it means, but thinks it sounds funny, FWIW. But, hey - I forgot that few people have magically decided that there are no women here, just because.
CJ Miller
CJ Miller wrote:
bg1979 wrote:
i don't think the name is offensive but more "out of touch" and doesn't set a particularly inviting tone in a niche world that can be a bit of an old boys club


Out of touch with whom? There has been a lot of ruminating lately about the forum supposedly being heavily stilted towards the male demographic. But where's the evidence? Our profiles don't include any gender details. So, I'd say this is mostly a factor of guesswork and insecurity.

bg1979 wrote:
obviously this is a great board with wonderful helpful people, but as the community grows and becomes more mainstream i think it may have outgrown the name


Well, firstly, I don't believe in the concept of "mainstream". There are billions of people out there, who live in billions of different ways. Consider that the forum can barely cope with the load of how many members there are now! And if people join us because of the character of the forum, then why change it's character and identity? Why mess with success? I'd say we are welcoming new members as frequently as we can handle.

bg1979 wrote:
it's not about being overly PC or thin skinned or easily offended, it's just about a level playing field that doesn't set a certain tone off the top

i know the answer from some people to comments like mine is "if someone doesn't like it they can go somewhere else! noone forces you to get helpful modular information from this site", which is obviously true but is that really the attitude/sentiment that people here think is worth sticking to as this "scene" grows to (hopefully) include more women?


I think "tone" is a slippery quantity to base such decisions upon. What does "Muff Wiggler" even mean? Can you explain it? Have you considered the obvious possibility that the forum may have this name precisely because it is run by and for women?

The only person I know IRL who is a member here is my ex-wife. She mostly lurks, but she says that she loves the name. Doesn't know what it means, but thinks it sounds funny, FWIW. But, hey - I forgot that few people have magically decided that there are no women here, just because.
CJ Miller
Sorry about the double-post! I was trying to edit a spelling mistake before I saw that the "edit" button is gone, and that I quoted myself instead.
CJ Miller
I suppose it would be better to say that "tone" is a quality than a quantity, but my point is that this is a matter of trying to nail down something completely subjective, to a specific.

Lamer disclaimer: I've got a fever right now, and am very disoriented. Or is is disorientated? I can neither think nor type very clearly at this time.
decaying.sine
I can honestly say we use the term Muff Wiggler in my home. So currently, that includes my parents who are staying with me for a bit, and my 6.85 year old and almost 2 year old and myself. There is no explaining. The site is called Muff Wiggler. It's Muff's place. When my daughter wants to look at the emoticons because they are funny, we say, let's go to Muff Wiggler and check it out. Now of course, I do not take her to a thread that is NSFW and I do not let her cruise Muff's by herself because I am not a stupid fucking idiot. But, I digress.

It's not the site name that is "offensive." That is ludicrous. It's what your mind does with those words when you think of it. When I think of those words, I get two mental impressions:
1)handsome Mike fap fap fap...
2)synths, cats, and unicorns, in that order
jnlkrt
before i knew this forum, i asked myself why a guitar pedal was named after a handwarmer.

when got to know this forum, i was puzzled to find handwarmers being related to modular synths, too!

then i stumpled upon this thread and thought: what could be offensive about wiggling a handwarmer?

i thought google picture search should disclose all the offensive content associated with these terms to me, but it was all about handwarmers and guitar pedals and synths!

"muff": http://bit.ly/1eDyR02
"muff wiggler" http://bit.ly/1cQB55i

btw we should all get one of these and be happy: http://bit.ly/1cnj4z5
jnlkrt
oh, and what decaying.sine said.
CJ Miller
decaying.sine wrote:
When my daughter wants to look at the emoticons because they are funny, we say, let's go to Muff Wiggler and check it out.


Same here! My son loves the Muff Wiggler emoticons.
Gamma Phonic
I think it's a silly name, for silly people, who like silly things. Like me. I'm three quarters through a bottle of grouse by the way, so don't take me seriously. Anyway, I'm new here and would like to say a drunken hello. I'm hoping to start my eurorack modular adventure soon, so whatever.

Might have a few questions for the more experienced wigglers in a week or two regarding module choice.

I'm seriously drunk, singing along to piltdown man on side B of tubular bells... Wasted.

Anyway, nice to be here....
krz
I'm surprised at the assumptive nature of humans, their constant underlying prevalence of preternatural, uneducated, very obvious psycho-biological, pre-judging of the external world. WTF does all that mean? All the unconscious one-upmanship in our world- regardless of your station in life. All the constant fear this "human nature" causes that is perpetuated by society. The only way to move above, and evolve beyond this is -is by simply endeavouring to enlighten oneself with open-minded education.
Live and let live. Live and let die. If so chosen.

I'm also surprised that no one assumed muff and wiggler could be extrapolated... ad nauseum. Did anyone ever think of "ear" muffs? Also known as over ear headphones? Ear muffs to keep ears warm? I "wiggle" my finger in everyone's ears as in a "wet willie" .
ALL THE ABOVE IS MEANT TO BE TAKEN LIGHTLY. I know no more than anyone else here.

Not to be taken lightly is the narcissism of online "social phenomena" - such as Twitter. Unfortunately the proverbial pendulum swings too far. Can we all please help to break the cycle, learn from history, and strive to be better than yesterday?
I enjoy this "place". Many thanks to Muff Wiggler for everything. I've learned alot about many things here.
Why Adapter
Ya know, I never actually read Mike's first post in this thread before. AndI bet a lot of other people haven't either, considering recent events.

But I still get a pang of non-PC guilt when I log in, and say to myself,"Let's see who's going down on the Muff."
ikkini
As I'm french, could someone explain me what a "muff wiggler" is ?
stk
^ They are an ancient order of Gentleman knights. Although at first glance they appear somewhat meek and unassuming, they are in fact the closest the Western world has to real life Ninjas. Of a sort.

Skilled in the secrets of Unicorn penis, they are.
ElectroSteam
ikkini wrote:
As I'm french, could someone explain me what a "muff wiggler" is ?

In English 'muff' can be one slag term used for (parts of) the female genitalia, particularly the vagina. 'To wiggle' is to adjust or tweak. So a 'muff wiggler' is a person, who tweaks or adjusts (fondles?) the female genitalia.

In some parts of the world it is not considered 'politically correct' (thus the term PC) to openly talk about or refer to sex and any related subjects. People may thus feel offended when encountering sexual slang terms in what should be considered polite company. IE. as a precaution you wouldn't consciously use terms referring to sex in public if you want to be on people's good side.
ikkini
Thanks for the explanation ! So a muff wiggler is a "tripoteur de chatte" !!! Huhu !!!
ElectroSteam
ikkini wrote:
Thanks for the explanation ! So a muff wiggler is a "tripoteur de chatte" !!! Huhu !!!

Something like that, yep. Mr. Green
stainers
Great to hear the background on the forum and your name.

The PC fad is certainly not dead and while I imagine it to be a necessary phase for society to go through it has wrought severe consequences as it works its way the extreme, to the point where we have police raids in galleries and artists being censored and charged with child pornography &c. &c.
I do like to think that we will work our way to a more sensible time of balance and acceptance that not everything is palatable to everyone and satire &c. has an important role to play in perception, and we will look back to these current dark ages and be thankful for the people who stood strong and risked offence.
Keep up the good work
spacemod
Not really offensive. Unless someone is easily offended....

I don't care either way really.

I just need to get my posts up so I can vote in these polls. zombie
consumed
funny to look back at this thread spanning over six years and to read my initial response. i would change my vote if i could, because (personally) wiggling of the muff is not at all offensive. i am not easily offended and certainly dont talk that way. my kids are going to be the scourge of the playground.

i am, however, hyper-sensitive to social situations and context. but who am i to invent someone else's sensitivities to these sorts of things?
BillyR
It's funny how society plays all this stuff out. I'm gay, but don't really find the name offensive. Although the once in a blue moon I actually think about it, I vomit a little in my mouth, but in a light hearted way smile. Reminds me of when I joined a Facebook page for Air Force veterans in my particular career field. I knew I would hear some very conservative comments, that's the nature of the general military mindset at the time. However someone finally shot his mouth off about the "perverts being allowed to get married in the military now" and I finally spoke up to say that I was gay, proud to be a member, and had kept my mouth shut on the subject, and would like others to do the same. No one agreed, and I was treated as if I were just another fag on a soapbox. Kinda annoying, and ever since some things strike more of a chord with me, other times I'm just a "well, what are you going to do?" mentality.

In short, not really easily offended. I have really no problem with the name. Sorry for the narrative. Hope I don't get "cool story, bro'd"
Psychlist1972
Not digging "Marf Wrangler". Sounds like a character from Fraggle Rock.

We could go completely the opposite direction and pick "Knob twiddler", "Plug Stuffer" or any number of other things wink

Pete
Muff Wiggler
Maybe it helps for me to point out that 1) it's very temporary 2) a MARF is a multiple arbitrary function generator, an outrageously influential circuit in the early history of modular synths
Bricks
MARF WRANGLER is superwin.
CJ Miller
Yes, every opportunity to be reminded of the legendary MARF is a good thing, IMO. I keep forgetting that it's there and laughing again.

Buchla 222e
BadBadger
Muff Wiggler wrote:
Maybe it helps for me to point out that 1) it's very temporary 2) a MARF is a multiple arbitrary function generator, an outrageously influential circuit in the early history of modular synths


1) Whew!

2) Cool.
Vsyevolod
I was thinking that something a little more subtle... like twat spanker...

Stephen




.
antonius
Muff Wiggler wrote:
2) a MARF is a multiple arbitrary function generator, an outrageously influential circuit in the early history of modular synths


I hadn't heard of this acronym. Makes the current site name incredibly cool! It's peanut butter jelly time!
Kyhotay
Fuck, yeh, I find Muff Wiggler offensive. That's why I hang out here. MARF kinda sounds like "marflar" but without the coolness, despite what the acronym means.
BadBadger
Has anyone asked if Muff Wiggler finds any of us offensive? Now there's a discussion!
BadBadger
Quote:
a sick band of ghosts and cats and pigs and bats

And not one mention of the sickest animal of them all. SlayerBadger! That's ok. I get it. Everyone thinks "furry and cute." But you'll change your opinion if I ever encounter one of your little kitty-cats.
ronaldroy
I didn't read the whole thread so apologies if this has been linked to before, but I feel it is warranted:

notmiserlouagain
I am a great lover of muffs, the electronic kind as well as the natural ones, and I have also great respect for women (everybody really, who doesn´t prove me otherwise hihi ).

I wish we could overcome that medieval ´sinful pleasures of flesh´ thinking.
I was actually tought recently, that the word ´flesh´ in it´s morality-stricken meaning was a translation of the latin ´natura´.

One should start to think about that, if a person is offended by his/her own nature, there must be something wrong, but not actually with someone else then... seriously, i just don't get it

Goes without saying, there´s so much macho-stupidity and patronizing out there, that I usually respond to with comments about shrivelled dicks.

@bad badger: I have at one point been attacked by an evil badger, while riding my bike in the forest, I can tell you, not much fun there!
craigie77
Like the late great Frank Zappa said

I was happy to offend anyone who wanted to be offended

People live in a sanitised world these days and hqve no immunity to anything anymore
Tbh I think its the fucking lawyers that have led to the pc shit taking over,,,,,,, so really its nothing to do with how people feel but underlying greed of the letigious generation

Sorry if anyone finds his offensive,,,,, you can phone my lawyer who will tell you to kiss my arse in a letter that no one but another lawyer can read,,,,,,,,,, the real offensive pc
doctorvague
BadBadger
notmiserlouagain wrote:
@bad badger: I have at one point been attacked by an evil badger, while riding my bike in the forest, I can tell you, not much fun there!

I hope you escaped unscathed. While I much prefer the taste of Dachshund meat, I have been known to nip a human every now and then. If you ever encounter a badger, my best advice (besides running) is to yell, "Muff Wiggler!" It probably will not be me, but if by chance it is, I promise I will let you pass unharmed.
Adminius
I think anyone who has such fragile sensitivities that they are offended by the domain name of a website should sit themselves down on a rocking-chair in the corner and knit themselves a woolly blindfold. Such folk have no business being on the internet. Anyone and everyone who bleats and moans about a lack of political correctness can bloody 'swivel on it' as far as I'm concerned.

'muff' + 'wiggler' = funny
Multi Grooves
I'm all for equality but to wet the bed over the name muff wiggler is overly sensitive boarding on taking offence on behalf of others IMO- especially as outside of the name there is nothing mildly offensive on the forum itself.

Just think of how many websites that have huge hits and have some level of respectability that do far worse for equality...do these people regularly flag them? I'm thinking of a UK 'news'paper that is an Alan Partridge fav aka the Daily Fail. Their website is stomach churningly bad.

So possible questionable title with totally clean content = angry

Respectable title/high hits but content that's a little shy of online Gomorra = thumbs up

With all this kind of subject context is is so important. I genuinely wonder how many would take offence if it was called sausage cruncher?
BadBadger
Multi Grooves wrote:
. . . especially as outside of the name there is nothing mildly offensive on the forum itself.

Ummm, yeah, well, you obviously haven't dug in deep enough. And when you do, I hope you aren't easily offended, but instead, enjoy the debauchery. It really is some of the best around. SlayerBadger!
Multi Grooves
...um...I...stumbled across a thread that featured pneumatic drills going up people's boxes to the sound track of music made on miniature boxes...I take it^^ all back. This shit needs to be shut down.
Multi Grooves
Oh, badgerman, can you send me link to the heavy stuff?

Thanks

x
BadBadger
Multi Grooves wrote:
Oh, badgerman, can you send me link to the heavy stuff?

All the "good stuff" is going to be in the Members Only - NSFW area. And by Members, yes, you can guess that's where all the dickish stuff is. thumbs up

Start with this: https://www.muffwiggler.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=42907&highlight=gifs

And after that, just ask anyone. Believe me, if you ask, you will be rewarded (bombarded) with links. Wigglers are a proud bunch. And the only thing they are more proud of than their insanely expensive racks of gear, are their filthy, disgusting, scatalogically funny posts! screaming goo yo

Thank me later. After you recover sufficiently. MY ASS IS BLEEDING
BadBadger
Multi Grooves. Please send me the link to the box-drilling discussion. Things may be worse than even I imagined. lol
Multi Grooves
It's the bleakness. You don't want none of that.
Multi Grooves
eek!
ronaldroy
I think I just got it: Muff Wiggler = Knob Tweaker. Geez I'm slow.
Soulstu
I have a muffler for my horn and I can use this 1ST post.. It's peanut butter jelly time!
Cognizant
not offensive to me
inner_light
Not sure if this has been posted elsewhere on here, but it sums up the general "boys club" vibe on here to a tea. Something that i feel is gross and outdated and id like to see stop.

http://FUCKYOU.com/2014/04/17/muff-wiggler-sexism-in-audio-cultures/
sduck
Welcome to the forum! Yes, there have been numerous threads fairly recently about that post. https://www.muffwiggler.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=110719 is the main one. Note that it's been locked. Please respect that.
inner_light
I just want to add, this place is wonderful in all other ways!
dude
i am certainly finding this place offensive of late.
Muff Wiggler
Yep. Me too.
inner_light
It was not my intention to be offensive, I was hoping a healthy dialogue would be in everyone's interest. I wish that other thread showed up in my searches before I posted on this one.
ignatius
inner_light wrote:
It was not my intention to be offensive, I was hoping a healthy dialogue would be in everyone's interest. I wish that other thread showed up in my searches before I posted on this one.


there's other shit going on. it's not you who's being "offensive" thumbs up

welcome to the forum.
PrimateSynthesis
inner_light wrote:
Not sure if this has been posted elsewhere on here, but it sums up the general "boys club" vibe on here to a tea.


It's "to a T", which is short for "tiitle".


Heh-heh, I said "tit" hihi
inner_light
Adapt or perish, Dad
PrimateSynthesis
inner_light
Ok I'm off to talk about synthesizers!
Id be happy to talk to you about them too.
I'm going to extend you the benefit of the doubt and put this obvious baiting down to boredom.
I wish you a good day!
Xo
FredJM
To be honest, I dont give a damn about the name or find it offensive - But I do think its an unfortunate choice.

Why? - Well, because it has nothing to do with the content here - And because it has kept me away from this site, not because It was "offensive" but because I thought (due to the name) that it would be some crappy juvenile forum that would be of no value or interest.

I also think its unfortunate for reasons already given - Work access, misunderstanding from those who dont know the content but just see the name and jump to the wrong conclusions.. I design / develop electronic musical instruments - I often refer clients to websites at which they can examine subjects or assess demand for particular products (and hopefully commission me to design these)..

There are some clients I certainly would never "send" to "muffwiggler" ! woah

Oh, there are some clients I might - Some musical products I have had some part in designing would even be too raunchy to describe here! - But that's a different story, and these products aren't in the "public domain" anyway - they are crafted often to outrageous specifications using precious metals and jewels, sold privately to / commissioned by wealthy musical Celebs (or at least the one with a "synth" built into it was) and the name "muffwiggler" could almost be a trade name for them!


Mr. Green
ignatius
so far.. these first few months working for muff wiggler shop.. it's quite apparent that at least in portland people like the name. mostly women stop and take pics next to the signage on the door. they take selfies w/the name in the background.. then giggle w/their friends and walk away.

i've had numerous conversations w/various other businesses and when giving them contact info they all say "what's the name of the business? can you say that again?" and now and then they laugh and say "i love it"

this isn't of course some scientific poll.. it's just anecdotal stuff from day to day things..

i'd say most people don't even consider the name in any way.. good or bad.. they don't care.. they just walk in and start playing w/the synths and drum machines.

but.. listen to the podcast mike did a while ago. lot's of info there about where the name came from and thoughts around the name yada yada yada..

i don't have the link for the podcast.. you'll have to dig around. it's been posted around a lot though. FB and the forum here and stuff.
slovo
so, so, so, so, sosososo glad yall kept the name. It's an epic portmanteau. Nobody will miss whatever stuffed shirts are avoiding the joint because oh noes, their reputations. SlayerBadger!
CJ Miller
FredJM wrote:
I do think its an unfortunate choice.

Why? - Well, because it has nothing to do with the content here


As has been explained, they are the names of effects pedals. And pedals which are quite esteemed by synthesists. Back in the day, there were no effects modules such as distortion, flangers, or delay. Until recently, we still needed to use pedals for those.
BadBadger
slovo wrote:
so, so, so, so, sosososo glad yall kept the name. It's an epic portmanteau.

Frankly, I find the word portmanteau offensive. sad banana
CJ Miller
BadBadger wrote:
slovo wrote:
so, so, so, so, sosososo glad yall kept the name. It's an epic portmanteau.

Frankly, I find the word portmanteau offensive. sad banana


I use the portmanteau "dorkmanteau" to refer to offensive portmanteau. Which of course means all of them, making this somewhat recursive.
BadBadger
CJ Miller wrote:
I use the portmanteau "dorkmanteau" to refer to offensive portmanteau.

applause
CJ Miller wrote:
. . . making this somewhat recursive.

Reminds me of the fact that if you enter recursion in Google, it asks, "Did you mean: recursion?"
daverj
BadBadger wrote:
Reminds me of the fact that if you enter recursion in Google, it asks, "Did you mean: recursion?"


And it continues to ask you, even if you click it. hyper
rdomain
Quote:
It's pretty funny! But I see the other side as well


Yes. I see the other side as well but do I care what that other side think? NOPE. Guinness ftw!

When I'm at work I just scroll the page I'm on up a little bit to hide the word MUFF at the top. hehe


zvuku
I think it raises eyebrows and it has stopped me from coming here when I,m on a work computer - just in case. But maybe that just a symptom of the politically correct world we find ourselves in.
CJ Miller
I also think we should ban those awful Jack Lemmon movies. I know what "Jack Lemmon" means! I wasn't born yesterday!
ignatius
last week a lady told me "i love the name.. love love love the name!"
J KAY
I just read through the origins and the comments in relation to, IMHO the best name for a site ever!!!

I personally find it hilarious

My misses says I spend all day looking at slutz and muffs !!! hihi
Neekau
To be honest, it took me ages (i.e. a couple of days) to figure out what the name was about. I knew for sure that it meant something SlayerBadger!
Sometimes the limits of your native language are there. Sometimes.
AEJOTZ
Only an improperly indoctrinated human unit would even ask such a question.

Levity of any kind is insensitive to the humor impaired.

Let's just implement zero tolerance for everything and get it over with.
DiscarnateEntity
I'm delighted to be a part of anything that's even remotely anti-PC. thumbs up

British women tend to react to the name like Terry Jones of Monty Python in drag. "Oooh, that's a bit saucy, sir!" Followed by raised eyebrows and the inevitable question, "Mmmm, so are you any good at muff wiggling, then?"

Or, "Well then, I'll show you my muff if you show me your wiggler". And on it goes...

… like classic innuendo from a 1960's comedy. hihi
henrybirdseye
Tell ya what, if you are offended by the shenanigans on the Muff, go to one of those other forums that covers a panoply of electronic music issues... if you can find one.
BadBadger
DiscarnateEntity wrote:
Followed by raised eyebrows and the inevitable question, "Mmmm, so are you any good at muff wiggling, then?"

Or, "Well then, I'll show you my muff if you show me your wiggler".

Going on Expedia right away to price UK accommodations! SlayerBadger!
daverj
DiscarnateEntity wrote:
I'm delighted to be a part of anything that's even remotely anti-PC. thumbs up

British women tend to react to the name like Terry Jones of Monty Python in drag. "Oooh, that's a bit saucy, sir!" Followed by raised eyebrows and the inevitable question, "Mmmm, so are you any good at muff wiggling, then?"

Or, "Well then, I'll show you my muff if you show me your wiggler". And on it goes...

… like classic innuendo from a 1960's comedy. hihi


Nudge, nudge, wink, wink. Say no more.
Pfurmel
Sorry^

DiscarnateEntity
daverj wrote:
DiscarnateEntity wrote:
I'm delighted to be a part of anything that's even remotely anti-PC. thumbs up

British women tend to react to the name like Terry Jones of Monty Python in drag. "Oooh, that's a bit saucy, sir!" Followed by raised eyebrows and the inevitable question, "Mmmm, so are you any good at muff wiggling, then?"

Or, "Well then, I'll show you my muff if you show me your wiggler". And on it goes...

… like classic innuendo from a 1960's comedy. hihi


Nudge, nudge, wink, wink. Say no more.


The one time that a woman told me she thought 'Muff Wiggler' was sexist, I replied that it was the name of the guy who runs the forum and that, ultimately, she should blame his parents, Mr & Mrs Wiggler, for naming their son after Steve Winwood's older brother, Muff.

She was genuinely sympathetic for "poor Muff" after that little anecdote. hihi
Vsyevolod
Blondes... gotta love 'em.

Stephen




.
sduck
You're allergic to pictures of cats? What about pictures of cats in monster trucks?
PrimateSynthesis
Are the cats naked? seriously, i just don't get it
thefutureeaters
I think it's great. Learning so much!
MrNovember
I definitely see the other side of it...but I think it's awesome
I really want a muffwiggler shirt; I would wear it with pride
Rooftree
Yes, it's slightly offensive.

No, I don't really care.

Yes, people need to lighten up.

And yes, my wife has asked me what goes on at the Muffs site. She also wanted to know about GearSlutz. Actually, I think she was afraid to ask about both sites at first. She waited awhile before saying anything.
morphic
I have had odd looks in the supermarket while wearing my muff's tee shirt but my wife said it looks fine but could be taken the wrong way
chloelikescats
I think the name invites and reinforces a certain dialogue/culture. It's definitely not inclusive or inviting to anyone outside of that presumed culture. I think the dismissiveness towards anyone who disagrees is problematic.

I think this article does a pretty good job explaining why this culture is not inclusive:
http://pinknoisemag.com/essays/show-us-your-racks
PrimateSynthesis
Some shit so stupid only an intellectual can believe it.
JohnLRice
chloelikescats wrote:
I think the name invites and reinforces a certain dialogue/culture. It's definitely not inclusive or inviting to anyone outside of that presumed culture. I think the dismissiveness towards anyone who disagrees is problematic.


When someone says I'm a [insert political party] or I'm a [insert religious affiliation] or I'm a [insert gender organization] or I'm a [insert country other than USA] or I'm a [insert restrictive culinary diet type] or I love the [insert sports team] etc I don't feel included. If someone just says "I'm a lover of [blank]" and if I don't love what ever [blank] is, I don't feel included.

But I really don't care, so long as people that love things I don't, don't try to take away the things I love.
CJ Miller
chloelikescats wrote:
I think the name invites and reinforces a certain dialogue/culture. It's definitely not inclusive or inviting to anyone outside of that presumed culture. I think the dismissiveness towards anyone who disagrees is problematic.


Nice way to stack a one-sided argument there. You posit some "certain" culture which is not described, and then go on to say that this explains what is exclusive about it. What's more, dismissing the notion and disagreeing with it are two distinctly different reactions. I agree that it's worth considering, but it also can be intellectually dishonest to suppose that there must be a problem with people disagreeing with such opinions.

chloelikescats wrote:
I think this article does a pretty good job explaining why this culture is not inclusive:
http://pinknoisemag.com/essays/show-us-your-racks


I don't find the comparisons between synthesizers and deer hunting to be very cogent, honestly. There is not, so far as I am aware, any significant overlap between modular users and hunters. There are quite a few other kinds of "racks", such as for billiards, clothing, spices, and countless other things. Suggesting that talk of "racks" must imply violence due to an association with deer hunting I think is rather disingenuous.

How do we get from the idea that discussing muffs or racks must necessarily imply a male heterosexual perspective? Because these sound like female things? How about if we did the opposite and discussed audio gear as representing some glorified phallic ideal? One could assume that this would be more aligned with a female perspective, but my guess is that this too would be remarked upon as indicating some masculine bias.

The underlying problem, I think, is more quaint and sexist. It is that there has been, in western culture, the tradition that people only frankly discuss sexual matters with their own, and not in "mixed company". The idea that discussing things in sexual terms excludes anyone is absurd, because sexual identity is not the province of any singular gender. I have no reason to presume that most people on Muff Wiggler are male, or heterosexual. Most people simply don't say. I think that synth gear needn't be discussed in sexual terms - I prefer not to myself - but I also think that doing so need not exclude anybody, apart from perhaps people who tend to have sex-negative attitudes anyway.
MrNovember
CJ Miller wrote:
I don't find the comparisons between synthesizers and deer hunting to be very cogent, honestly. There is not, so far as I am aware, any significant overlap between modular users and hunters. There are quite a few other kinds of "racks", such as for billiards, clothing, spices, and countless other things. Suggesting that talk of "racks" must imply violence due to an association with deer hunting I think is rather disingenuous.

CJ Miller wrote:
The underlying problem, I think, is more quaint and sexist. It is that there has been, in western culture, the tradition that people only frankly discuss sexual matters with their own, and not in "mixed company". The idea that discussing things in sexual terms excludes anyone is absurd, because sexual identity is not the province of any singular gender. I have no reason to presume that most people on Muff Wiggler are male, or heterosexual. Most people simply don't say. I think that synth gear needn't be discussed in sexual terms - I prefer not to myself - but I also think that doing so need not exclude anybody, apart from perhaps people who tend to have sex-negative attitudes anyway.

Could not have said that better myself
ignatius
regardless of where everyone stands on this.. the name is not going to change. it's on the doors where i work.. it's on my business card (!! ), it's on the store website, forum site, blog site... it's on t-shirts.. stickers... advertisements..

and of course it's branded on all our hearts.

the horse has left the barn... the ship has sailed...

etc etc etc..

hugs hugs hugs. Guinness ftw!
rico loverde
ignatius wrote:
regardless of where everyone stands on this.. the name is not going to change. it's on the doors where i work.. it's on my business card (!! ), it's on the store website, forum site, blog site... it's on t-shirts.. stickers... advertisements..

and of course it's branded on all our hearts.

the horse has left the barn... the ship has sailed...

etc etc etc..

hugs hugs hugs. Guinness ftw!
its funny how many people in he neighborhood love the name...from old to young. i have not heard one person say anything about being offended by it and these are people who have no idea what it is.
Vsyevolod
rico loverde wrote:
its funny how many people in he neighborhood love the name...


That's because you don't have enough uptight intellectuals in your part of town. Might I send some down?

Stephen




.
rico loverde
Vsyevolod wrote:
rico loverde wrote:
its funny how many people in he neighborhood love the name...


That's because you don't have enough uptight intellectuals in your part of town. Might I send some down?

Stephen




.
good point, I do forget that I live in a pretty open minded place, San Francisco was the same...
chloelikescats
Well that went about as I had hoped it wouldn't. Thank goodness we can all express our thoughts about this without getting bashed on and mocked. I feel so welcome.

As for the sexist commentary the name invites, I have seen it more times than I can count, which is part of why I don't post much.

And yes it is absolutely safe to assume that this is a space dominated by hetero men. Get your head of the sand. Pretending there isn't a problem does nothing to actually solve it.
JohnLRice
chloelikescats wrote:
And yes it is absolutely safe to assume that this is a space dominated by hetero men. Get your head of the sand. Pretending there isn't a problem does nothing to actually solve it.
Why do you consider any space dominated by hetero men to be a "problem"? Are spaces that are dominated by feminist women also a "problem" that needs to be solved? seriously, i just don't get it
ignatius
chloelikescats wrote:
Well that went about as I had hoped it wouldn't. Thank goodness we can all express our thoughts about this without getting bashed on and mocked. I feel so welcome.

As for the sexist commentary the name invites, I have seen it more times than I can count, which is part of why I don't post much.

And yes it is absolutely safe to assume that this is a space dominated by hetero men. Get your head of the sand. Pretending there isn't a problem does nothing to actually solve it.


you're here. that's good.

i don't understand how the name "invites sexist commentary" though.

we could change the name to "modular synth forum" and nothing would be any different.

if there's sexist commentary make one of the mods aware of it. mods can't be everywhere. if there's a jackass talking down to a user because of sexuality or gender or whatever that needs to be called out. and in the past it has been called out.

so, yeah.. hang out.. consider this place your own. take part.. nothing will bend the culture if the user base doesn't bend first.
slow_riot
Hi Chloe! Hope you can ignore the trolls with the loudest voices and enjoy the glut of information here. There are considerate members of this community (those that didn't get forced out or banned that is) who are prepared to listen to what you think. God praise the father, and "free" titilation for all hetero men etc.
CJ Miller
JohnLRice wrote:
chloelikescats wrote:
And yes it is absolutely safe to assume that this is a space dominated by hetero men. Get your head of the sand. Pretending there isn't a problem does nothing to actually solve it.
Why do you consider any space dominated by hetero men to be a "problem"? Are spaces that are dominated by feminist women also a "problem" that needs to be solved? seriously, i just don't get it


I don't think that anybody "dominates" anything. Although some primitive types my assume that they do, or that this could be a real goal worth pursuing.

As for the population of hetero men, the profiles here do not record the gender of the members, nor their preferences. Of the thousands of people here, those who I have read explicitly stating this about themselves is only several percent. Among those who have stated, I have read accounts of males, females, trans, genderfluids. They have not only been encouraged to participate here, and do so without any special privilege or class structure. So, by my definition, this is quite inclusive.
cretaceousear
As a tangential comment and related to the thread about design aesthetics, it would actually be nice to see a very feminine design aesthetic applied to a range of modules.
But suggesting this gets me into dangerous waters - as I could be seen to be being patronising and promoting stereotypes of feminine pink fluffiness.
I don't intend that - the car manufacturers attempt to produce models that are more appealing to female customers - e.g. Fiat 500, new Beetle.
But again we are in dangerous territory as now we are promoting the hetero normative status quo.

TBH the essay linked to will only be written by a person who already has their own set of blinkers tightly attached to their cranium. They see what they expect to see.
slow_riot
I believe there are male and female psyche's , somewhere in the depths, it's almost limitlessly fluid, and very dangerous to try to draw it out, because there are just as many exceptions for every element that seems cogent.

I believe Cary Grace received criticism for her panel of the 300 Controller being "too feminine". This criticism is quite loaded, most notably in that users feel her design choices should be limited to anything other than what she believes to be most appropriate.

Anyway I'm getting Zeke Clough to do my panel design, I hope that he avoids the whole ejaculating cock paradigm.
Vsyevolod
I did some design/graphic layout for the Serge Modular system when I worked there in the late 70's. I don't remember doing anything that was explicitly 'anything'... other than functional. Seems like I missed my chance. If only I had been aware of the underlying 'hunter/pr0n/audio engineer' market, I could have helped Serge retire as a millionaire. Instead we had to content ourselves with such racy modules as the 'Bi-Directional Router', the 'Analog Shift Register', the UPAP, and the WAD. I know it's hard to believe, but that's all we had back in those days. That and the Sears catalogue.

Stephen




.
cretaceousear
[quote="slow_riot"]I believe there are male and female psyche's , somewhere in the depths, it's almost limitlessly fluid, and very dangerous to try to draw it out, because there are just as many exceptions for every element that seems cogent.[/quote]
Need emoticon for "deep and interesting thought"
CLee
is the name Muff Wiggler sexually suggestive, absolutely
is the site riddled with sexist posts and material that some may find offensive, absolutely
is the site dominated my male members (pun intended???), absolutely
is the music business predominantly sexist, absolutely

I just don't get it why there is all this backlash when someone points out the obvious. If someone feels offended, they feel offended. If you don't, you don't. You can spout your anti-feminist stuff all you want but you're only proving the point. If women feel excluded or belittled and they express their opinion... all they get is the negative shit they were pointing to in the first place.

Lighten up and accept the critique.
PrimateSynthesis
Vsyevolod wrote:
That and the Sears catalogue.


fap fap fap...
JohnLRice
CLee wrote:
Lighten up and accept the critique.
Are you suggesting critiques should be protected from being critiqued? hmmm..... seriously, i just don't get it
CLee
JohnLRice wrote:
CLee wrote:
Lighten up and accept the critique.
Are you suggesting critiques should be protected from being critiqued? hmmm..... seriously, i just don't get it


Nope, not at all. The aggression from some could be backed way off though.
JohnLRice
CLee wrote:
JohnLRice wrote:
CLee wrote:
Lighten up and accept the critique.
Are you suggesting critiques should be protected from being critiqued? hmmm..... seriously, i just don't get it


Nope, not at all. The aggression from some could be backed way off though.
ahhh, understood! thumbs up
Chiffre
Yes it offensive, to me it seem a crude, juvenile, vulgar, misogynous term.

Contrary to above people here seen nice, polite, thoughtful, talented which I find more than compensate for the unfortunate name choice..
Vsyevolod
I've done a bit of research here...

The Big Muff guitar pedal got it's name by pedal designer Mike Matthews. "Matthews named it a “muff†because in his words it had a “funky, soft, muffled sound”. You'll notice that there is no reference to the derogatory slang name for vagina in the original naming.

Muffwiggler was named after two guitar pedals, the Big Muff and the Wiggler, both made by Electro-Harmonix. One was a distortion pedal, the other a Tremolo.

Now if someone wants to connote a sexual sub-meaning to this name, I suppose that it's their prerogative. I've never looked at it thusly and feel somewhat confused when others decide to look at it that way. I totally get that a juvenile approach to humour might get a giggle or two by the name, though that's kinda like giggling at paintings from the Renaissance which show exposed breasts of the female type.

So is the name Muffwiggler misogynistic? If you want to look at it that way then it totally is. If you don't want to look at it that way then it totally isn't. Lumping everyone who uses the name (or at least agrees with it) into a category or type of person is a bit extreme IMHO. If after all that a person still wants to lump, then so be it. Be aware that those who don't care to be lumped just might disagree with you.

Stephen




.
MrNovember
Vsyevolod wrote:
I've done a bit of research here...

The Big Muff guitar pedal got it's name by pedal designer Mike Matthews. "Matthews named it a “muff†because in his words it had a “funky, soft, muffled sound”. You'll notice that there is no reference to the derogatory slang name for vagina in the original naming.

Muffwiggler was named after two guitar pedals, the Big Muff and the Wiggler, both made by Electro-Harmonix. One was a distortion pedal, the other a Tremolo.

Now if someone wants to connote a sexual sub-meaning to this name, I suppose that it's their prerogative. I've never looked at it thusly and feel somewhat confused when others decide to look at it that way. I totally get that a juvenile approach to humour might get a giggle or two by the name, though that's kinda like giggling at paintings from the Renaissance which show exposed breasts of the female type.

So is the name Muffwiggler misogynistic? If you want to look at it that way then it totally is. If you don't want to look at it that way then it totally isn't. Lumping everyone who uses the name (or at least agrees with it) into a category or type of person is a bit extreme IMHO. If after all that a person still wants to lump, then so be it. Be aware that those who don't care to be lumped just might disagree with you.

Stephen.

Also couldn't agree more with this

And I want to clarify that I wasn't trying to bash or mock anyone in my earlier agreement with CJ Miller. I was only agreeing with his interpretation of the posted article.

I feel genuinely bad that chloelikescats and others do not feel welcome and accepted here. This is a place to celebrate our love for synths not a place to put anyone down; everyone should feel accepted
JohnLRice
Vsyevolod wrote:
If after all that a person still wants to lump, then so be it. Be aware that those who don't care to be lumped just might disagree with you.
Taped Shut [crass humor comment withheld to demonstrate I am capable of at least some restraint] spinning
chloelikescats
Quote:
I feel genuinely bad that chloelikescats and others do not feel welcome and accepted here. This is a place to celebrate our love for synths not a place to put anyone down; everyone should feel accepted


Part of the reason myself and others feel unwelcome (I've had this conversation with many colleagues) is the constant degradation of female bodies (not to mention the transphobic stuff.... calling artists "tranny"... I could go on). Yes, the name is an amalgamation of two pedal names... but it's a lead in to all the talk about "muff wiggling" and "I wiggle a lot of female muff", which leads to further othering and objectification of women ("synth babes").

The "we're just joking!" excuse gets real old real quick when you deal with this stuff on a daily basis. When you already feel excluded from music tech spaces that inherently privilege hetero men (argue this point if you feel so inclined, I am currently steeping in far too much of this information for my thesis). So does "get over it, you're being overly sensitive". There aren't many places online to go and share our love of synthesizers, it would be nice if there were one that felt safe.

Beyond that... every time I post on here I end up with weird random friend and follow requests on all other forms of social media. I took down my profile picture, but my name gives me away (regretting that). That is definitely overstepping boundaries.
JohnLRice
chloelikescats wrote:
There aren't many places online to go and share our love of synthesizers, it would be nice if there were one that felt safe.
What is stopping you and/or like minded individuals from creating a synth forum that has the style, attitude and content that you want? hmmm.....
TheBradster
chloelikescats, hadn't seen you here before, sorry you find it so difficult. I for one have felt welcome here since I joined, even though I have had the odd conflict. I for one think it would be great to have more female members on the forum.

I don't think it's constructive to tar all wigglers with the same brush. This kind of problem seems to come up every time someone decides to "speak for the community", rather than focusing on specifics. Considering the topic, I think everybody in this thread is behaving pretty well. Maybe some people act like jerks, but compared to what else is out there, this forum is pretty clean.

As far as conflating antlers, racks and female breasts, you lost me.
ignatius
the forum is like a little bit of society. the same problems exist.. the same pit falls.. the same attitudes etc etc..

i don't understand how you expect the internet to be different than the real world. sadly it's just the way it is.

can only hope that things improve over time. there are always going to be people who say dumb shit, lack empathy/awareness etc.

"synth babes" is not something that started here.. it happened on some japanese calendar or something and made it's way to matrixsynth or harmony central or whatever and that's that.. it makes the rounds.. it's stupid crap.. but so is every magazine in the checkout aisle at the grocery store.

also, not every part of this site has that content in it. only one or two.. stupid pics, stupid videos and the now and then members only off topic threads about "how do i talk to girls" etc..

if it happens in normal parts of the forum then by all means.. call it out.. alert a mod etc..

remember there is a wide cross section of people here.. from teenagers barely sentient to elder statepersons of synthdom.

maturity levels run the range from "huhuh huhuh butts" to whatever the opposite of that is.

i don't mean to sound insensitive and i applaud you having better expectations for a community.. it should be.. but is not. and that's that. all i can say is.. hang around.. be a part of things.. add your 2 cents and call out the sexism when you see it.

otherwise.. nothing will change.. nothing will be made more inviting. mods do our best to steer things but there's only so much time to spend on the forum policing things. seriously, i just don't get it
dysonant
As a heterosexual male and a new member, I promise to call out sexist, racist, homophobic or any hateful remarks. I do not see how they might add any value to a forum like this.

That said, to the topic of the thread I would say that language is a forever morphing and malleable communication medium. Much like modular synths. While the origin of muffwiggler's name may be completely harmless (being the combination of two pedals) it has since changed into something that can be construed as offensive. A quick explanation to an initiate of the term might serve to alleviate any confusion. That may not solve the overall issue of interpretation, but it might, over time, help redefine muffwiggler as a more innocuous label.

I can see how changing the forum name may also cause issues. However, I posit that it may not be insurmountable. While people tend to hold on to what they know, a core trait of humanity is the ability to adapt.

In summation, On a not so entirely unrelated topic, around 1995 there was a shop in Austin, TX that had the idea to combine muffin tops and doughnuts. The resulting product was called a Muffnut. The business did not do well.
slow_riot
JohnLRice wrote:
chloelikescats wrote:
There aren't many places online to go and share our love of synthesizers, it would be nice if there were one that felt safe.
What is stopping you and/or like minded individuals from creating a synth forum that has the style, attitude and content that you want? hmmm.....


Are you actually suggesting that a women only modular synth forum would be a good thing? And that if someone feels uncomfortable in a place then it is automatically the failure of the person and not the place?
slow_riot
I do understand the argument that it is always possible for someone to take on board the initiative, but, however many years away from the first cellular lifeform to the division of same species into loosely divided multiples of 2 for genetic diversity, and it still seems that we haven't been able to realise that we are all the same. I don't see any reason to be anything other than inclusive towards others.
ignatius
chloelikescats wrote:
There aren't many places online to go and share our love of synthesizers, it would be nice if there were one that felt safe.


does muffwiggler feel "unsafe"? i mean.. is there really that vibe here? do people feel unsafe?

has anyone been threatened other than with stabby words of insensitivity and objectification?
thispoison
If we were all the same, really all the same, then we just might run out of people to blame for what we are or how we feel. And that would be bad. Really bad.

I for one felt OK until Ignatius openly mocked my three dead goldfish.

Stabby, Insensitivity and Objectification got me through some really bad times.

Mind you, I never took to Objectification. He* really was an ugly Goldfish.

*i called him he, but who knows. He was ginger though.
JohnLRice
slow_riot wrote:
JohnLRice wrote:
chloelikescats wrote:
There aren't many places online to go and share our love of synthesizers, it would be nice if there were one that felt safe.
What is stopping you and/or like minded individuals from creating a synth forum that has the style, attitude and content that you want? hmmm.....


Are you actually suggesting that a women only modular synth forum would be a good thing?
Are you suggesting it would be a bad thing? hmmm..... I said nothing about a women only modular synth forum, although if there was an obviously female dominated modular synth forum I'd check it out (I like women, lots!) I'm saying people should step up and take responsibility for creating what they want instead of trying to modify what other people have created by merely complaining about it.


Quote:
And that if someone feels uncomfortable in a place then it is automatically the failure of the person and not the place?
If they came to the place of their own free will, are free to leave anytime but continue to stay even though they feel uncomfortable about it, then yes, I'd say it is their own fault they feel uncomfortable.
chloelikescats
Most women/queer/trans people who frequent this forum pretty openly acknowledge that they do so incognito, masking their gender in order to feel protected. Publicly "outing" yourself (claiming your gender) in these spaces is a calculated risk. As for "

Quote:
has anyone been threatened other than with stabby words of insensitivity and objectification?


You're being condescending and dismissive, because whether or not you experience "stabby words of insensitivity" or objectification in the same way, these things are incredibly alienating, threatening, and harmful to some users. Because here we are in a place where everyone is talking about something that we love while objectifying, insulting, and belittling our bodies and work in the same breath, and we're supposed to just get over it. Because this space often assumes a certain user base.

Would you feel safe if someone were to seek you out online after you posted on a forum where you provided scarce personal details (aside from your first name)? This sort of behavior points to a sense of entitlement that is reprehensible and dangerous.

Would you feel safe in a space where your body/gender is regularly objectified? Would you feel safe in a space where, if you dare to point out sexist attitudes, you are belittled and scorned? Yes, this forum is a reflection of society at large. Yes, the name DOES reinforce that (no matter its origins), and frankly, so does the dismissive and defensive attitude directed at anyone who points that out.
PrimateSynthesis
chloelikescats wrote:
openly acknowledge that they do so incognito


huh?

dizzy

Dead Banana
chloelikescats
[quote]chloelikescats wrote:
openly acknowledge that they do so incognito


huh?

dizzy

Dead Banana
Quote:


People do talk about this forum in real life (gasp).
chloelikescats
But nice attempt at derailing the conversation with semantics.
abstraktor
JohnLRice wrote:
slow_riot wrote:
JohnLRice wrote:
chloelikescats wrote:
There aren't many places online to go and share our love of synthesizers, it would be nice if there were one that felt safe.
What is stopping you and/or like minded individuals from creating a synth forum that has the style, attitude and content that you want? hmmm.....


Are you actually suggesting that a women only modular synth forum would be a good thing?
Are you suggesting it would be a bad thing? hmmm..... I said nothing about a women only modular synth forum, although if there was an obviously female dominated modular synth forum I'd check it out (I like women, lots!) I'm saying people should step up and take responsibility for creating what they want instead of trying to modify what other people have created by merely complaining about it.


Quote:
And that if someone feels uncomfortable in a place then it is automatically the failure of the person and not the place?
If they came to the place of their own free will, are free to leave anytime but continue to stay even though they feel uncomfortable about it, then yes, I'd say it is their own fault they feel uncomfortable.


Everyone who is on the forum 'creates it'. Or are you meaning it's only people with more than 4 goos who have the right to influence the common policy? I've complained about the puerile and gratuitous sexism on here before -plenty of members have also tried to 'modify' that reactionary mind set that some members seem to have- so should we just all fuck off and start another synth forum too? After all, according to you it's our fault we feel uncomfortable (?). And then you can be left alone to talk about big boy's modulars and drool over naked pictures of Miley Cyrus in peace.
For the record -regardless of the way in which the Muff Wiggler name was created and what I feel about it, it has other connotations. I've no doubt that when in my work, someone in IT has checked out here because the name has flagged up as possibly having inappropriate content.
CJ Miller
chloelikescats wrote:
Most women/queer/trans people who frequent this forum pretty openly acknowledge that they do so incognito, masking their gender in order to feel protected. Publicly "outing" yourself (claiming your gender) in these spaces is a calculated risk.


Protected from what? I have been on the forum here for several years and have never once encountered anybody being insulted over their gender or orientation. Also, queer and trans people might be more marginal populations, but this hardly seems like a fair comparison with women, who comprise a majority of the population. Since most people are women, it's a more than fair guess that the average person one encounters online might be a woman.

chloelikescats wrote:
here we are in a place where everyone is talking about something that we love while objectifying, insulting, and belittling our bodies and work in the same breath, and we're supposed to just get over it.


Can you indicate some examples on the forum of people "objectifying, insulting, and belittling our bodies"? You make it sound quite pervasive when you say that everyone is doing this while discussing synthesizers.

chloelikescats wrote:
Would you feel safe if someone were to seek you out online after you posted on a forum where you provided scarce personal details (aside from your first name)? This sort of behavior points to a sense of entitlement that is reprehensible and dangerous.


How I would feel about this would depend upon how they treat me. I have been chronically stalked by both men and women IRL, and not liked it. But I'd say there is a big difference between this and simply being contacted by someone I wasn't expecting to hear from. If they refuse to respect boundaries, there is a problem, but I don't assume this to be the case with everybody.

chloelikescats wrote:
you feel safe in a space where your body/gender is regularly objectified?


Yes, I'd feel safe, but it does get tedious. As I get older it becomes less of a problem.

chloelikescats wrote:
Would you feel safe in a space where, if you dare to point out sexist attitudes, you are belittled and scorned?


Definitely! I love pointing out sexist attitudes. And the more unreasonable the response, the more confident I am that they really needed to hear it explained to them.

chloelikescats wrote:
Yes, the name DOES reinforce that (no matter its origins)


How do its origins, its meaning, not matter? You go so far as to say that it is actually misogynistic! How is this? I don't want for you to feel insulted and anxious. But since the names doesn't actually say anything misogynistic, do you suppose its possible that this meaning might be a product of your own perceptions? This does not make it less important or real, but it might indicate that your feelings about it are something you can take responsibility for instead of projecting upon other people. Even assuming that the name really is just sexual innuendo, how does this make it sexist? Are all sexual references inherently sexist? Does Muff Wiggler connote anything that is even gender-specific? Is it referring to a man or a woman, and how would I know? This is my basic definition of "sexist", that it says something special about a person based upon their gender - but I simply don't see that as being the case here.

chloelikescats wrote:
and frankly, so does the dismissive and defensive attitude directed at anyone who points that out.


Is it honest to assert that anyone who disagrees with you must be either dismissive or defensive? Aren't there other valid possibilities? A person could simply remain unpersuaded. Or, even honestly disagree with what appears obvious to you. People can actually be opposed to sexism without agreeing with the explanation you offered.
MrNovember
CJ Miller wrote:
chloelikescats wrote:
here we are in a place where everyone is talking about something that we love while objectifying, insulting, and belittling our bodies and work in the same breath, and we're supposed to just get over it.


Can you indicate some examples on the forum of people "objectifying, insulting, and belittling our bodies"? You make it sound quite pervasive when you say that everyone is doing this while discussing synthesizers

This does happen often in the NSFW picture threads. Lots of pictures of naked women and questionable responses to those pictures. That being said those threads are really the only place I've seen anything questionable. I still don't agree with the idea that 'show us your racks', in reference to a modular rack, is sexist because rack is a homonym for breasts and a thing you store things on.

chloelikescats wrote:
Would you feel safe if someone were to seek you out online after you posted on a forum where you provided scarce personal details (aside from your first name)? This sort of behavior points to a sense of entitlement that is reprehensible and dangerous.


How I would feel about this would depend upon how they treat me. I have been chronically stalked by both men and women IRL, and not liked it. But I'd say there is a big difference between this and simply being contacted by someone I wasn't expecting to hear from. If they refuse to respect boundaries, there is a problem, but I don't assume this to be the case with everybody.[/quote]
If you don't publicly share your information, it should be quite clear you do not want to be contacted. This is definitely stepping way over personal boundaries. Also chloelikescats I'm pretty sure you can have a mod change your username. Or at least they could probably point you in the right direction
JohnLRice
abstraktor wrote:
JohnLRice wrote:
slow_riot wrote:
JohnLRice wrote:
chloelikescats wrote:
There aren't many places online to go and share our love of synthesizers, it would be nice if there were one that felt safe.
What is stopping you and/or like minded individuals from creating a synth forum that has the style, attitude and content that you want? hmmm.....


Are you actually suggesting that a women only modular synth forum would be a good thing?
Are you suggesting it would be a bad thing? hmmm..... I said nothing about a women only modular synth forum, although if there was an obviously female dominated modular synth forum I'd check it out (I like women, lots!) I'm saying people should step up and take responsibility for creating what they want instead of trying to modify what other people have created by merely complaining about it.


Quote:
And that if someone feels uncomfortable in a place then it is automatically the failure of the person and not the place?
If they came to the place of their own free will, are free to leave anytime but continue to stay even though they feel uncomfortable about it, then yes, I'd say it is their own fault they feel uncomfortable.
Everyone who is on the forum 'creates it'.
Everyone on the forum did not create the name, it was one person, the forum owner I believe, that created the name. The owner of the forum also sets what is allowable and what isn't


Quote:
Or are you meaning it's only people with more than 4 goos who have the right to influence the common policy?
Number of years here doesn't mean much since there are a surprising amount of people who have been around many years that only have made one or two posts. While polls here are unscientific and very inaccurate (I'm assuming) the poll for this thread shows that only 10% of the people that voted are seriously uncomfortable with the name. I'll also assume that besides the name, 90% of the people here are fine with the way the forum is in general. So I'm suggesting that the 10% that are unhappy with the forum could make better use of their time by making a forum that is conducted in a way that makes them happy. Seems obvious enough?


Quote:
I've complained about the puerile and gratuitous sexism on here before -plenty of members have also tried to 'modify' that reactionary mind set that some members seem to have- so should we just all fuck off and start another synth forum too? After all, according to you it's our fault we feel uncomfortable (?). And then you can be left alone to talk about big boy's modulars and drool over naked pictures of Miley Cyrus in peace.
lol Sure, go or stay, do what makes you happy, unless it is trying to make others unhappy.


Quote:
For the record -regardless of the way in which the Muff Wiggler name was created and what I feel about it, it has other connotations. I've no doubt that when in my work, someone in IT has checked out here because the name has flagged up as possibly having inappropriate content.
So, what are you doing surfing personal interest sites when you are at work? Do they pay well? Sounds nice, are they hiring? 8_)
Demi Jon
Regarding the idea that 'the name is just the combined names of two guitar pedals so therefore it's not sexist' is hilarious. EHx were sniggering like Beavis when they named their overdrive pedal Big Muff Pi.

And suggesting that the sexy ladies posts came from some other foum, this has been a part of Muffwiggler since day one:

Internet Wayback Machine Muffwiggler.com Jan 2007

Notice the link to Muff's Babes Here

I'm glad that this topic has come up again -- I get tired of the hypermasculinity as well, and have been embarrassed to recommend the site to both women friends and feminist men friends interested in synths and SDIY. I know the site name will not be changed, but at least I'd like to be able to say "It has this terrible jokey name, but the community is really welcoming and respectful." And just like previous times, there will be some hetero males who get vocally offended by the thought that their may be something offensive in their behaviour. But then the frequency of boobs and butts pics, and general locker room bantering, will die down a bit for a while.
MintyPig
This thread makes me less proud to be a member of Muffs.
JohnLRice
MintyPig wrote:
This thread makes me less proud to be a member of Muffs.
+1
ignatius
chloelikescats wrote:
Most women/queer/trans people who frequent this forum pretty openly acknowledge that they do so incognito, masking their gender in order to feel protected. Publicly "outing" yourself (claiming your gender) in these spaces is a calculated risk. As for "

Quote:
has anyone been threatened other than with stabby words of insensitivity and objectification?


You're being condescending and dismissive, because whether or not you experience "stabby words of insensitivity" or objectification in the same way, these things are incredibly alienating, threatening, and harmful to some users. Because here we are in a place where everyone is talking about something that we love while objectifying, insulting, and belittling our bodies and work in the same breath, and we're supposed to just get over it. Because this space often assumes a certain user base.

Would you feel safe if someone were to seek you out online after you posted on a forum where you provided scarce personal details (aside from your first name)? This sort of behavior points to a sense of entitlement that is reprehensible and dangerous.

Would you feel safe in a space where your body/gender is regularly objectified? Would you feel safe in a space where, if you dare to point out sexist attitudes, you are belittled and scorned? Yes, this forum is a reflection of society at large. Yes, the name DOES reinforce that (no matter its origins), and frankly, so does the dismissive and defensive attitude directed at anyone who points that out.


this all sounds like we're talking about multiple things. also, i didn't mean to come across as dismissive.. just that it was a simple way to phrase my question which i do genuinely wnt to know the answer to as it's a much more serious problem.

has there been a muff's stalking incident we're not aware of? are you being chased by men via PMs and stuff??? is this a thing here on muffwiggler?

personally don't care about people's sex gender transgender sexual orientation etc.. i just don't care. be who you are.. and i know that sounds outrageously simple..that's not what i mean..

and as to being incognito.. well.. if there were more transgender people hanging out i'm sure morons would think maybe a bit longer before posting something stupid.. but perhaps that's like the redneck who looks around the bar before he tells a racist joke. either way.. that shit doesn't get very far in real life. not in portland.

but is it really anyone's business? i mean.. we're entitled to our privacy as we see fit.. share or not.. it's an individual decision.

i hate to use the big ship analogy but the forum is a big ship. it takes a while to turn it in any direction.. but w/o 50 people rowing on one side a little more it's not going to turn at all.. so.. again.. hang out.. call out the sexism and moron speak when you see it.. things will change.. but only if you do it.

the NSFW pics thread is just that.. it is what it is.. an outlet for all that shit. many times it's hilarious.. sometimes it's borderline.. but who's to say?

regarding "synth babes" - there's a tag on matrixsynth.. there's a calendar in japan.. i think it predates any stupid synth babes thread here but idk.. could be wrong.. it's stupid either way.
ignatius
JohnLRice wrote:
MintyPig wrote:
This thread makes me less proud to be a member of Muffs.
+1


which is why people should just be cool and accepting and not objectify other etc.. so we won't have to have this type of discussion and everyone get on w/the reason this place exists which is bleeps and bloops and unquantized unholy rackets of sound.
JohnLRice
ignatius wrote:
JohnLRice wrote:
MintyPig wrote:
This thread makes me less proud to be a member of Muffs.
+1


which is why people should just be cool and accepting and not objectify other etc..
Why can't people accept objectification then? What is really wrong with it? Human's are mostly just a collection of objects. Take away all the objects that make us up and what is left? Spirit, soul, personality, and/or??? Are any of those non-physical items possible without the supporting objects? Some would say yes but of course it is endlessly debatable since there is no way to reliably prove or disprove those theories at the present time. Think about everything you do on a daily basis and and see how much of it is "object orientated". (there is a programmer geek joke in there somewhere hihi )

I LOVE a lot of objects, modular synth objects and dog objects in particular but I love a lot of human objects too, mostly woman objects but occasionally I'm blown away by a fine specimen of a man object.

I also love a lot of human personalities, regardless of if I have any particular attraction for their objects or not.
chloelikescats
JohnLRice wrote:
ignatius wrote:
JohnLRice wrote:
MintyPig wrote:
This thread makes me less proud to be a member of Muffs.
+1


which is why people should just be cool and accepting and not objectify other etc..
Why can't people accept objectification then? What is really wrong with it? Human's are mostly just a collection of objects. Take away all the objects that make us up and what is left? Spirit, soul, personality, and/or??? Are any of those non-physical items possible without the supporting objects? Some would say yes but of course it is endlessly debatable since there is no way to reliably prove or disprove those theories at the present time. Think about everything you do on a daily basis and and see how much of it is "object orientated". (there is a programmer geek joke in there somewhere hihi )

I LOVE a lot of objects, modular synth objects and dog objects in particular but I love a lot of human objects too, mostly woman objects but occasionally I'm blown away by a fine specimen of a man object.

I also love a lot of human personalities, regardless of if I have any particular attraction for their objects or not.


I'm just gonna go ahead and let you read your own words and maybe think them over again. You took it broad really quickly there... we're not talking about the objectification of people... we're talking about the objectification of women in particular that happens around there.

And no. We're not just going "accept objectification". Back to the drawing board.
JohnLRice
chloelikescats wrote:
JohnLRice wrote:
ignatius wrote:
JohnLRice wrote:
MintyPig wrote:
This thread makes me less proud to be a member of Muffs.
+1


which is why people should just be cool and accepting and not objectify other etc..
Why can't people accept objectification then? What is really wrong with it? Human's are mostly just a collection of objects. Take away all the objects that make us up and what is left? Spirit, soul, personality, and/or??? Are any of those non-physical items possible without the supporting objects? Some would say yes but of course it is endlessly debatable since there is no way to reliably prove or disprove those theories at the present time. Think about everything you do on a daily basis and and see how much of it is "object orientated". (there is a programmer geek joke in there somewhere hihi )

I LOVE a lot of objects, modular synth objects and dog objects in particular but I love a lot of human objects too, mostly woman objects but occasionally I'm blown away by a fine specimen of a man object.

I also love a lot of human personalities, regardless of if I have any particular attraction for their objects or not.


I'm just gonna go ahead and let you read your own words and maybe think them over again. You took it broad really quickly there... we're not talking about the objectification of people... we're talking about the objectification of women in particular that happens around there.
lol, I think you need to reread your own words. razz

I think people should be treated equally, men, women, kids, elders, etc. But maybe you think women people are superior or more fragile than other people and need extra special treatment? hmmm..... seriously, i just don't get it
Joe.
chloelikescats wrote:
we're talking about the objectification of women in particular that happens around there.


meh
chloelikescats
Quote:
has there been a muff's stalking incident we're not aware of? are you being chased by men via PMs and stuff??? is this a thing here on muffwiggler?


Not through PM's, but I've had people track down my personal website, my vimeo, my personal instagram, and my personal facebook page. I ended up just making everything private because I was creeped out by all the random requests (all music tech dudes, none of whom I'd ever actually exchanged words with). I don't post on gearslutz... so I'm gonna take a wild leap...

Quote:
i hate to use the big ship analogy but the forum is a big ship. it takes a while to turn it in any direction.. but w/o 50 people rowing on one side a little more it's not going to turn at all.. so.. again.. hang out.. call out the sexism and moron speak when you see it.. things will change.. but only if you do it.


Hard to do if when you call sexist behavior you are told "we're just joking" and told to stop being so sensitive, "that's just the way it is, some things will never change.", that it's stupid to try to change it, that if we don't like it... just leave.

Quote:
the NSFW pics thread is just that.. it is what it is.. an outlet for all that shit. many times it's hilarious.. sometimes it's borderline.. but who's to say?


I look forward to my 25th post so I can find out, but I have witnessed and documented plenty of it outside of that space too.

Quote:
regarding "synth babes" - there's a tag on matrixsynth.. there's a calendar in japan.. i think it predates any stupid synth babes thread here but idk.. could be wrong.. it's stupid either way.




Yes, it is stupid. To the credit of this site, I've not seen a synth babes thread like on gearslutz. https://www.gearslutz.com/board/electronic-music-instruments-electroni c-music-production/705886-women-synths-2.html.. wait... nvm... https://www.muffwiggler.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=110401&start=all&pos tdays=0&postorder=desc
ignatius
chloelikescats wrote:
wait... nvm... https://www.muffwiggler.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=110401&start=all&pos tdays=0&postorder=desc


did you look at that thread and read it? it's mostly a piss take on synth babe threads because they're stupid and it's full of one wonderfully naked man who would get my vote for wiggler of the year if there was such an award.

i don't know how we're supposed to stop people from trying to friend you or send you emails to your public (now private) websites seriously, i just don't get it

honestly really.. do you have a suggestion on how to stop people from trying to be your friend on FB?

i have lot's of FB friends i've never met or spoken to who are people i've seen in posts in forums. it's kind of normal isn't it?

i thought people who make music and put stuff on the internet want other people to see it. isn't that the point? or were they leaving comments on your sites asking you for coffee and your phone number or telling you your eyes are so pretty and stuff???

"we're just joking"

"it's not funny"

"yes it is"

"no it's not. it's belittling and stupid and makes people who don't have a penis feel uncomfortable"

"too bad"

"ok then.. you're a dick and i'll use the ignore button and never have to see your posts again"
Demi Jon
This stuff needs to be discussed, which is why it comes up again and again.

For many of us, we've had to unlearn a lot of unacceptable behaviour, and much of that bad behaviour may be unconscious, or never even considered. This relearning can happen because one makes a choice to change, or because one's community encourages change.

ignatius wrote:
"too bad"

"ok then.. you're a dick and i'll use the ignore button and never have to see your posts again"


There's no ignore button IRL. Be considerate.
ignatius
Demi Jon wrote:
This stuff needs to be discussed, which is why it comes up again and again.

For many of us, we've had to unlearn a lot of unacceptable behaviour, and much of that bad behaviour may be unconscious, or never even considered. This relearning can happen because one makes a choice to change, or because one's community encourages change.

ignatius wrote:
"too bad"

"ok then.. you're a dick and i'll use the ignore button and never have to see your posts again"


There's no ignore button IRL. Be considerate.


who's talking about real life.. i was talking about the forum. seriously, i just don't get it sadly i'm not able to moderate real life as i can here on the forum. razz

regarding calling out sexism on the forum if it shows up.. she said the reply she's gotten is "lighten up we're joking".
Demi Jon
ignatius wrote:
who's talking about real life.. i was talking about the forum. seriously, i just don't get it sadly i'm not able to moderate real life as i can here on the forum. razz


My point is, if you are behaving like an ass on the forum, you are likely an ass in real life. Women -- and men -- are harassed regularly in real life. Discussing why we should be considerate on this forum will hopefully spill out into real world behaviour.

ignatius wrote:
regarding calling out sexism on the forum if it shows up.. she said the reply she's gotten is "lighten up we're joking".


I've read the conversation. "Lighten up we're joking" is further harassment; it diminishes the receiver of the initial harassment by painting them as a humourless killjoy.
JohnLRice
Demi Jon wrote:
This stuff needs to be discussed, which is why it comes up again and again.

For many of us, we've had to unlearn a lot of unacceptable behaviour, and much of that bad behaviour may be unconscious, or never even considered. This relearning can happen because one makes a choice to change, or because one's community encourages change.
hmmm..... 'unacceptable behavior' So, where can I read about this universally accepted set of life rules of conduct that everyone should always follow? seriously, i just don't get it I can think of many different ones but they agree on some subjects and strongly disagree on others. And that's the reason this discussion comes up so often is because everyone does NOT agree on what is correct and incorrect behavior.

But, when someone is on this forum, the only rules that really matter are the forum rules.
ignatius
Demi Jon wrote:
ignatius wrote:
who's talking about real life.. i was talking about the forum. seriously, i just don't get it sadly i'm not able to moderate real life as i can here on the forum. razz


My point is, if you are behaving like an ass on the forum, you are likely an ass in real life. Women -- and men -- are harassed regularly in real life. Discussing why we should be considerate on this forum will hopefully spill out into real world behaviour.


right sure that's great.. but the goal of the forum is to discuss synths. if people's horizons are broadened then that's great but the teachable moments here are usually about MATHS or Brainseeds or LPGs or MARFS etc..

but also.. people are often way different on the internet than in real life.. perhaps less so these days but some people are emboldened by anonymity and let their true self come out whereas in real life perhaps are more subdued or shy.

Demi Jon wrote:
ignatius wrote:
regarding calling out sexism on the forum if it shows up.. she said the reply she's gotten is "lighten up we're joking".


I've read the conversation. "Lighten up we're joking" is further harassment; it diminishes the receiver of the initial harassment by painting them as a humourless killjoy.


which is why i had an example conversation there.. and further illustrated the usefulness of the ignore button.

anyway... i think i've gone enough circles this evening.

i can only reiterate.. call out/report sexist behavioir or harassment on the forum.. "be the change you want to see on muffwiggler". take part or things will not change.

edit: also, other than the obvious synth babes stupid threads and now and then meat head comments is there regular sexism and talking down to women on the forum in every day "what's MATHS? should i get a LPG" etc threads??? the meat and potatoes of the forum i guess is what i'm getting at.. where does the discomfort reside other than the OT threads? please point me to it.
Demi Jon
JohnLRice wrote:
So, where can I read about this universally accepted set of life rules of conduct that everyone should always follow?


A guide to Muff's Modules & More for new wigglers wrote:
General posting rules

No bigotry or intolerance of race, age, sexual preference etc..


Also JLR, how about 'don't be a dick'? Seems pretty universal.

ignatius wrote:
"be the change you want to see on muffwiggler". take part or things will not change.


That's what I'm doing mate.
Joe.
I'd argue that the reason the topic keeps coming up "over and over again" is because a certain community hasn't gotten the outcome they want yet.

Ask EHX if they're afraid of a "Social Justice Warrior" Reddit-campaign to make them change the name of their products; Big Muff, Holy grail, Soul food or lumberjack.

Public backlash is swift when it comes to SJW now, the only communities that tolerate it are the same self-interest groups that create it.

Good riddance w00t
Matos
While expounding on the ills of using sexuality demeaning language, perhaps one should avoid the phrase " don't be a dick" If you’re turning part of a males body into a slur to insult someone, you're implying that dicks are bad, nasty, less than, in some way something that a person wouldn’t want to be or be associated with. Let us all follow the wise words of bill s. Preston esq. and "be excellent to each other."
slow_riot
I think the forum could use a more active approach from the top in creating a community more appropriate for this site's position in a multimillion dollar industry, highly embedded in both professional and personal spheres.

As noted, the forum started small, where the more unsavoury elements had less power to negatively affect people's lives, but the whole modular situation is much bigger and it would not take much for the site to become more recognising of the struggles that some people face in the real world, such as objecitification, stalking. chloelikescats mentioned trans people and I hadn't thought about that before, but I know that many trans people live in HUGE fear of being outed and are very careful with who they associate with.

I think the dismissiveness towards the claims that are being made by someone who is representing the views of multiple parties is highly sexist and very exclusive. The last TWO threads on this issue were locked. This is a refusal to accept the validity of those claims.

In the thread regarding the article written about sexism on Muffs, the author received some direct attacks from members without sanction. That was really hurtful behaviour enough to stop someone from coming back.
metasonix
How about some My Little Pony porn? Will that kill this damn thread?
JohnLRice
Demi Jon wrote:
JohnLRice wrote:
So, where can I read about this universally accepted set of life rules of conduct that everyone should always follow?


A guide to Muff's Modules & More for new wigglers wrote:
General posting rules

No bigotry or intolerance of race, age, sexual preference etc..


Also JLR, how about 'don't be a dick'? Seems pretty universal.
My sexual preference is scantily clad womans! hyper Guinness ftw! Why you so intolerant of my preference? cry razz

Back to synthamazisers? OK you? Hug
Joe.
slow_riot wrote:
I know that many trans people live in HUGE fear of being outed and are very careful with who they associate with.


I would love to hear how this is even remotely relevant to the MW community.

We have Synth Idols that are trans.
We have threads where people have come out as trans or expressed their intention to transition.
We have threads demonizing people that have ripped off the community.. and there gender choice wasn't a focus.
We have threads demonizing people that have fucked up Youtube for all of us.. and there gender choice wasn't a focus.

You played the wrong victim card.
JohnLRice
metasonix wrote:
How about some My Little Pony porn? Will that kill this damn thread?
Invoking Hitler used to work, but I don't know if even that would be strong enough to kill this thread. headcrabs! Dead Banana
Joe.
LoFi Junglist wrote:
slow_riot wrote:
I know that many trans people live in HUGE fear of being outed and are very careful with who they associate with.


I would love to hear how this is even remotely relevant to the MW community.

We have Synth Idols that are trans.
We have threads where people have come out as trans or expressed their intention to transition.
We have threads demonizing people that have ripped off the community.. and their gender choice wasn't a focus.
We have threads demonizing people that have fucked up Youtube for all of us.. and their gender choice wasn't a focus.

You played the wrong victim card.
Joe.
dufuk did my edit button go?
slow_riot
LoFi Junglist wrote:

You played the wrong victim card.


I think you are misinterpreting the meaning of that phrase. I am not speaking on behalf of myself. I am personally able to interact freely in this community with little fear, I am trying to support claims made by others about groups that do not have this privilege in order for this site to be more appealing to them.

Actually there were some transphobic comments made about Cynthia Webster that had no place in a discussion of her business dealings.

Yes, the thread about Liz Larsen was beautiful, more like that, please. smile
slow_riot
I don't get how the "social justice warriors" are being accused of calling for censorship, but somehow calling for this discussion to be locked is not censorship? Maybe it's a different kind, that the almighty father would approve of?
JohnLRice
It's just that these sorts of discussions aren't really resolvable since those with opposing viewpoints feel strongly justified that their opinion is "the correct one" and the thread can go on unhindered 'til the last human being has dropped . . .

ignatius
slow_riot wrote:
I don't get how the "social justice warriors" are being accused of calling for censorship, but somehow calling for this discussion to be locked is not censorship? Maybe it's a different kind, that the almighty father would approve of?


the reason threads like this one get locked when they spin out of control and never seem to end is because they dominate the forum and aren't productive. then there's 50 pages on sexism that goes in circles and all that energy gets confused up into something not relevant to the forum. it becomes actually counter productive to its aims or the aims of whoever is driving..

and people want to take what they can from it and get back to discussing synths and music.. and hopefully all participants have learned or benefited from sharing their thoughts and the forum as a whole benefits..

but to just let it go and go and go... well.. it becomes useless. there's nothing that's gonna happen on page 87 that hasn't happened on page 23, 42 and 58.
ignatius
slow_riot wrote:


Actually there were some transphobic comments made about Cynthia Webster that had no place in a discussion of her business dealings.


and people called out the bullshit in that thread. i remember because i was part of it. the couple of comments were made by one or two people and they were quickly told to knock it off if memory serves and told that shit has no place yada yada yada..

but that was a few years ago, yes? out of the million or two posts here on this forum there's one example of transphobic comments?

yep.. seems like intolerance and sexism is everywhere. very frustrating
Joe.
ignatius wrote:
There's nothing that's gonna happen on page 87 that hasn't happened on page 23, 42 and 58.


If this thread gets to 87 I'll post all the details of the lawsuit against my Uni... That involved me being removed from a teaching practicum because my beard was "intimidating" thumbs up
ignatius
LoFi Junglist wrote:
ignatius wrote:
There's nothing that's gonna happen on page 87 that hasn't happened on page 23, 42 and 58.


If this thread gets to 87 I'll post all the details of the lawsuit against my Uni... That involved me being removed from a teaching practicum because my beard was "intimidating" thumbs up


you know what you did.

JohnLRice
ignatius wrote:
LoFi Junglist wrote:
ignatius wrote:
There's nothing that's gonna happen on page 87 that hasn't happened on page 23, 42 and 58.


If this thread gets to 87 I'll post all the details of the lawsuit against my Uni... That involved me being removed from a teaching practicum because my beard was "intimidating" thumbs up


you know what you did.

Pit and the pendulum! MY ASS IS BLEEDING It wasn't the beard so much but the silently staring at people and slowley walking towards them while swinging his jaw back and forth! eek! hihi
thetwlo
JohnLRice wrote:
It's just that these sorts of discussions aren't really resolvable since those with opposing viewpoints feel strongly justified that their opinion is "the correct one" and the thread can go on unhindered 'til the last human being has dropped . . .



so great! thumbs up
thetwlo
so, if the forum name replaced "muff" with "Richard or cock" would women feel more comfortable here?
I really always thought of the pedal never thought of it like this but... I guess some do.
It's innuendo ferchrissakes!!! seems to happen frequently, don't freak out.
If someone stalks you call the police, that shit ain't right.
'dis is a dumb.
thetwlo
[quote="chloelikescats"]
so, out of curiosity, what have you contributed to this forum?
slow_riot
[quote="thetwlo"]
chloelikescats wrote:

so, out of curiosity, what have you contributed to this forum?


I don't believe it is worth acting in a defensive manner regarding claims that the forum is perceived as unwelcoming. Besides, this line of criticism is simply illogical. You are saying that someone has no right to say they feel unwelcome, or to mention this, because they have not made any contribution of themselves, but their whole line of argument is that they don't feel comfortable about contributing. Perhaps the fact that their first contribution is treated as unwelcome makes them feel unwelcome?
slow_riot
thetwlo wrote:

If someone stalks you call the police, that shit ain't right.


If you read chloelikescats post it was mentioned that they received a flood of friend requests after "outing" themselves as female on a forum. Maybe most of them are just professionally curious, but maybe one of them is a threat to personal safety. It's definitely not a black and white situation. Especially as presumeably the danger case probably has a professional interest as well, and the victim may well feel some responsiblity towards the needs of the perpetrator, or feel sorry for them.

Of course this isn't the direct responsiblity of the forum, but it has been mentioned that the forum has a certain "atmosphere" , and I personally wish that the victims of these struggles do not suffer alone.
ignatius
metasonix wrote:
How about some My Little Pony porn? Will that kill this damn thread?
metasonix
(image removed - keep that stuff in the NSFW forums)
JohnLRice
There needs to be an UN-lock emoticon hihi
Rigo
JohnLRice wrote:
There needs to be an UN-lock emoticon hihi

It would be rather difficult to post that in a locked thread hihi
JohnLRice
Rigo wrote:
JohnLRice wrote:
There needs to be an UN-lock emoticon hihi

It would be rather difficult to post that in a locked thread hihi
lol d'oh!

Heh, I actually just wanted to post "IN AFTER THE UNLOCK!" with a little dancing unlocked lock. 8_)
Rigo
JohnLRice wrote:
Heh, I actually just wanted to post "IN AFTER THE UNLOCK!" with a little dancing unlocked lock. 8_)

An "in before the next lock" will do twisted
JohnLRice
Rigo wrote:
JohnLRice wrote:
Heh, I actually just wanted to post "IN AFTER THE UNLOCK!" with a little dancing unlocked lock. 8_)

An "in before the next lock" will do twisted
applause Nice! 8_)
cretaceousear
I'm a big fan of this forum and a laid back tolerant person.
I enjoy the NSFW pages and find a lot of it very funny.

But that My Little Pony porn is out of order in this thread.
It's a slap in the face for all the people who've just been told Muffs is a cuddly loving place.

I'm astonished that Metasonix thinks it appropriate and that no one has called it out, as promised on previous pages.
AlanP
cretaceousear wrote:
I'm a big fan of this forum and a laid back tolerant person.
I enjoy the NSFW pages and find a lot of it very funny.

But that My Little Pony porn is out of order in this thread.
It's a slap in the face for all the people who've just been told Muffs is a cuddly loving place.

I'm astonished that Metasonix thinks it appropriate and that no one has called it out, as promised on previous pages.


The mods called it out in an understated way, by editing.

And as for the synth babes thing... I distinctly remember a non-female MW poster putting up a full frontal nudity picture of himself with synth in protest, and that same picture being quoted, repeatedly, by other forumites in protest as well.

The squeaky wheel gets the grease.
Vsyevolod
A few pages back, someone mentioned that EH must be laughing like Beavis at the naming of the Big Muff Pi. After all these years of seeing this ubiquitous little stomp box on stages, in stores, and on the Internet, I never once saw it as offensive or sexually suggestive. Then somebody stating the obvious "Big Muff Pie" brought it right back into the realm of juvenile humour.

Which says something... was it a sexual reference before or after I 'got it'? If I spoke about it, was I being unwittingly misogynistic? Or in my innocence was it truly just 'going along with a common name'? I personally feel the same way about Muffwigglers. It doesn't bring up a sexual reference in my mind, in fact I've never heard anyone on this site use the verb 'to wiggle' in any sense other than turning knobs and wiring up patchcords. As in "the MW website was down all day today, guess I'd better go wiggle..." So if "to wiggle" contains no overt sexual content (at least how I've seen in used), and neither have I ever heard anyone mention that 'to muffwiggle' meant anything at all, explain to me how (other than in one's own mind) this can be construed as misogynistic, sexist, non-inclusive, or otherwise inappropriate? And interestingly, it's the Muffwiggler website which inadvertently created this new use of the verb 'to wiggle' in its platonic usage.

My point being... once again... that offense often happens in the mind of the beholder. This forum, though it contains a few bizarre weirdos, bleeding assholes, and outright sociopaths, has a lot of inclusive-ness amongst the majority of posters here. If you are looking for inclusion, you'll find it. Methinks that if you are looking for butt-hurt, you'll find that as well.

This certainly does not excuse willful hurting of someone else on the part of anyone. Yes, we do need to be on the lookout for behaviour that falls outside of the realm of 'acceptable to the collective consciousness of this group'. Because the group is so large, diverse, and pan-cultural, a lot of leeway needs to be given. At the same time, there are a few 'call-outs' that fall short of the mark and are usually ignored.

About Facebook and unwanted 'friend-ing'. My own personal FB page used to be only people I knew in person. The one day I started adding synth friends that I knew only through this and other sites. I'm truly interested in the posting of music, acquisition of modules, and other news posted by fellow FB-ers. If someone hits my radar in a certain way, I'll send out a friend request. I've yet to do that on the basis of gender, colour, or religious bent, though I reserve the right to do so. Sometimes I receive FB friend requests and if I don't know them I either ignore them or ask them why they wanted to friend me. I'll accept or deny them based on their response.

The Internet has a small though significant minority of creeps. We all need to protect ourselves from them by how we present ourselves online. Women have the added burden of fending off the 'dirty old man' style of creepiness which doesn't afflict most grown adult men. We can complain all we want to about this, though little can be done about it other than to use your time on the Internet wisely.

As far as Social Justice Warriors are concerned, I have little to no interest in supporting or feeding their agendas. My own sense of Social Justice is about living my life to the highest standards that I'm capable of in the moment, not someone else's standards. This is about 'living the change that I want to see in the world'. If my standards fall to the gutter, then so do I. And if that happens, I don't go around blaming anyone else, I either pick myself up by the bootstraps or wallow in the gutter. My life, my happiness, my sense of inclusiveness with a desired group, is my own responsibility.

Stephen




.
ignatius
Vsyevolod wrote:
A few pages back, someone mentioned that EH must be laughing like Beavis at the naming of the Big Muff Pi. After all these years of seeing this ubiquitous little stomp box on stages, in stores, and on the Internet, I never once saw it as offensive or sexually suggestive. Then somebody stating the obvious "Big Muff Pie" brought it right back into the realm of juvenile humour.

Which says something... was it a sexual reference before or after I 'got it'? If I spoke about it, was I being unwittingly misogynistic? Or in my innocence was it truly just 'going along with a common name'? I personally feel the same way about Muffwigglers. It doesn't bring up a sexual reference in my mind, in fact I've never heard anyone on this site use the verb 'to wiggle' in any sense other than turning knobs and wiring up patchcords. As in "the MW website was down all day today, guess I'd better go wiggle..." So if "to wiggle" contains no overt sexual content (at least how I've seen in used), and neither have I ever heard anyone mention that 'to muffwiggle' meant anything at all, explain to me how (other than in one's own mind) this can be construed as misogynistic, sexist, non-inclusive, or otherwise inappropriate? And interestingly, it's the Muffwiggler website which inadvertently created this new use of the verb 'to wiggle' in its platonic usage.

My point being... once again... that offense often happens in the mind of the beholder. This forum, though it contains a few bizarre weirdos, bleeding assholes, and outright sociopaths, has a lot of inclusive-ness amongst the majority of posters here. If you are looking for inclusion, you'll find it. Methinks that if you are looking for butt-hurt, you'll find that as well.

This certainly does not excuse willful hurting of someone else on the part of anyone. Yes, we do need to be on the lookout for behaviour that falls outside of the realm of 'acceptable to the collective consciousness of this group'. Because the group is so large, diverse, and pan-cultural, a lot of leeway needs to be given. At the same time, there are a few 'call-outs' that fall short of the mark and are usually ignored.

About Facebook and unwanted 'friend-ing'. My own personal FB page used to be only people I knew in person. The one day I started adding synth friends that I knew only through this and other sites. I'm truly interested in the posting of music, acquisition of modules, and other news posted by fellow FB-ers. If someone hits my radar in a certain way, I'll send out a friend request. I've yet to do that on the basis of gender, colour, or religious bent, though I reserve the right to do so. Sometimes I receive FB friend requests and if I don't know them I either ignore them or ask them why they wanted to friend me. I'll accept or deny them based on their response.

The Internet has a small though significant minority of creeps. We all need to protect ourselves from them by how we present ourselves online. Women have the added burden of fending off the 'dirty old man' style of creepiness which doesn't afflict most grown adult men. We can complain all we want to about this, though little can be done about it other than to use your time on the Internet wisely.

As far as Social Justice Warriors are concerned, I have little to no interest in supporting or feeding their agendas. My own sense of Social Justice is about living my life to the highest standards that I'm capable of in the moment, not someone else's standards. This is about 'living the change that I want to see in the world'. If my standards fall to the gutter, then so do I. And if that happens, I don't go around blaming anyone else, I either pick myself up by the bootstraps or wallow in the gutter. My life, my happiness, my sense of inclusiveness with a desired group, is my own responsibility.

Stephen




.


applause applause applause well put.. thanks for sharing your thoughts. sounds quite reasonable to me.

also, Stephen is the better way to spell that name. Sorry if any of you spell your name Steven.. but it's just not as good as Stephen.
TheBradster
^ Eloquently stated, thank you. thumbs up
JohnLRice
^^^ yes, +another, excellent thoughts, Stephen! thumbs up
vav
Copy/paste from the second, locked thread, with a few tweaks:

I'd like to ask chloelikescats about the remark about transphobia. That smacks hard to me, because i see this as one of the most trans-positive communities in the music world.

I seem to recall this coming up once before in one of the most socially positive threads i've ever seen on any forum, where someone "came out" and admitted they were into transgendered individuals. Lots showed support, and much later someone bumped the thread and said "Hey, that term isnt cool" and was met with "Holy shit i'm so sorry. What's the preferred term? How can we be more sensitive?" and led to a great discourse that, i think, a lot of people learned from.

But to get back to the point about Muff's being a hostile environment, i'm of two minds. On one hand, barring the .0003% of the threads that overtly contain sexual material and the occasional lascivious innuendo in random threads, i dont see anything other than guys talking about synths. I think CJ brought up some excellent responses to chloe's critiques, and that conversation i think would be worth continuing.

On the other, the majority does not get to dictate what the minority is offended by.
PrimateSynthesis
chloelikescats wrote:
But nice attempt at derailing the conversation with semantics.


Oh, you were finished? Then allow me to retort.

Firstly, people engage in social signaling to express their sexuality. While female communication is often more subtle and sophisticated. When heterosexual men do it -- especially online -- it often seems crass and juvenile. Even for these hairy people who leave empty beer bottles and pizza boxes everywhere. Yet no matter how crude, expressing how much one likes women is the exact opposite of misogyny.

So you see, the relation between signifiers and their meanings is semantics. One of my oldest friends often describes herself as a "tranny" or "t-girl". There is a transsexual singer who likes the word "dickgirl". I've worked with numerous black musicians who incessantly used a historically troublesome locution without offense. Yet, if I so much as thought about typing that same word here, there are members whose heads would explode in bloody chunks like that dude in Scanners. So you shouldn't take things out of context. Because it will just make a mess.

Secondly, this is a largely technical forum. Recently, as I often do, tried to help a few people who had gear that wasn't working right. And not once, for the slightest moment, did I ever wonder whether they were female or LGBT. Since it's completely irrelevant. Ohm's Law doesn't care if you like dick.

Thirdly, in regards to your supposed safety, you need to consider that you can't be physically attacked over the internet. And women engage in relational aggression way more than men. Haven't you seen Mean Girls? Since men generally treat women better than women treat each other. As a woman, you are "safer" in a male-dominated space than in a female-dominated space. No one here is going to spread nasty rumors behind your back, call you a slut, make fun of your clothes, or tease you until you develop an eating disorder.

Therefore, if you have been insulted or belittled here, it is not because you are a woman. It's pot meet kettle. Because half your posts are putting down this forum. Seeing how you come across as accusatory and self-entitled, ignoring your gender, the response towards you has been extraordinarily civil. Check your privilege.

Finally, for numerous reasons ignatius already took the time to explain, the name will not change. So stop trying to make fetch happen. It's not going to happen.
JohnLRice
vav wrote:
the majority does not get to dictate what the minority is offended by.
Well sure, it is up to each individual to decide what does or doesn't offend them. But then certainly one individual does not get to dictate to a majority how the majority should think or act, particularly when it is an environment that they voluntarily entered and can leave at any time.

For instance, do any of these scenarios make any sense?:

A) A person starts hanging out at a biker bar called Cow Cutters. After a few months of not being very actively social jumps up on a table and proclaims that the name of the place is offensive to their vegan ways and out of respect every one there should stop wearing leather. They are laughed at and then keep coming back and jumping up on a table to proclaim that it is a hostile unwelcoming environment and needs to change.

B) A person starts hanging out at a vegan salad bar called Meat Haterz. After a few months of not being very actively social jumps up on a table and proclaims that the name of the place is offensive to their carnivore ways and out of respect every one there should stop bad mouthing meat and maybe add a couple meat choices to the menu. They are laughed at and then keep coming back and jumping up on a table to proclaim that it is a hostile unwelcoming environment and needs to change.

C) Someone goes to a nudist beach and complains about all the nudity. They are laughed at but told they are welcome to hang out clothed if they like but they keep coming back saying it is violating their 'rights' to be 'forced' to look at naked bodies . . . . .

D) A nudist tries to hang out naked on a public beach and complains about all the people wearing clothing because it makes this person feel self-conscious. They are told to put on clothes or leave to find a nudist beach but they keep coming back saying it is violating their 'rights' to be forced to leave or wear clothes . . . .

E) A non drinker hangs out at a bar and complains about all the alcohol being served . . . .

F) A drinker does to AA meetings and complains that no drinks are being served . . .


seriously, i just don't get it hmmm..... seriously, i just don't get it hmmm..... seriously, i just don't get it hmmm..... seriously, i just don't get it seriously, i just don't get it
daverj
chloelikescats wrote:
Most women/queer/trans people who frequent this forum pretty openly acknowledge that they do so incognito, masking their gender in order to feel protected. Publicly "outing" yourself (claiming your gender) in these spaces is a calculated risk.


This mystifies me. In the years that I have been here every single instance that I have seen where somebody mentions their gender, gender identity, or sexual preference, that person has been openly welcomed and encouraged. Never once have I seen anything negative posted in one of those threads, or any kind of homophobic, transphobic, or misogynistic comments directed at those people in other threads. I think this forum is far more accepting of peoples differences than the general internet is.

The only incidents that I can remember of derogatory gender/sex related comments aimed at individuals have been directed not at members, but at a manufacturer and a famous musician. One appeared to be cheating people, and one causing legal actions they had no right to cause. In both cases the derogatory commenter was immediately reprimanded by other members for posting inappropriate comments that had no place in those discussions.

True, the "weird internet pics" thread in the Off Topic forum is full of photos that objectify female bodies (and occasionally male and trans bodies). The "show some dicks" thread was full of pictures objectifying male bodies. Like most forums that are not about gender specific subjects, but about a specific hobby or occupation, this forum is largely populated with males. It's a fairly widely known fact that males (of any sexual preference) enjoy looking at pics of naked or sexy bodies. So it's not too surprising to me that in the off topic forum there end up being pictures of bodies posted.

noun: misogyny
mi·sog·y·ny
məˈsäj ənē/

dislike of, contempt for, or ingrained prejudice against women


I know there are some women who like to throw that word around when men look at, desire, or are attracted to images of women, with or without clothes. But it doesn't seem appropriate to me in those situations. Enjoying looking at a picture of a naked woman does not seem to me in any way a dislike, contempt for, or prejudice against women.

To me misogyny is when an employer won't hire a woman, or somebody feels that a woman can't do a particular job or function as well as a man. There is a long history of women working with synths, including some real pioneers in the field. I have never once seen a post here talking about them with terms like "they were great, for a woman". THAT would be misogyny. Posting a picture of a naked woman and commenting "wow, she's beautiful" does not seem to me to be misogyny. But that's my personal opinion.

One final thought. If you read through the posts here you will find numerous instances of members tracking down other members outside the forum and following them on Soundcloud, YouTube, Vimeo, FB, Twitter, etc... Not because they are stalking them. But because they are interested in the music, performances, images, or video created by that person. Since this is a largely male dominated forum, almost all of those instances are a male friending/following a male. Not for prurient interests, but because they think that person might be creating something wonderful that they want to see/hear.

And a special message for Metasonix: Stop being an asshole. I hear that you're a nice person face to face, but a lot of what you post on Muffs is aimed at shocking or pissing people off. Keep that in the appropriate threads or do it at 4chan.
chloelikescats
Okay, let me clear up a few things:

At no point in this dialogue have I ever stated that the name should be changed. I am not, as the metaphor went, a vegan in a steak restaurant screaming that meat shall not be served. I simply pointed out that SOMETIMES this place is not inclusive, and that some of the behaviors exhibited here inherently exclude people outside of an assumed culture (gender).

Constantly objectifying female bodies is not going to make women feel welcome here. And no, I am not just talking about the NSFW threads.

At no point in this dialogue have I suggested that EVERYONE ON HERE is guilty of making people feel unwelcome. That's obviously not true, there are some lovely people on here, and yes, I have contributed to a few threads, and had some perfectly nice interactions.

Yes, I have received random follow requests from complete strangers who I had no interacted with on any level prior to their requests. I find this behavior unacceptable and threatening. I have been stalked online, and on more than one occasion that stalking has escalated to taking place in reality. I am not the only person who has experienced this, and in general the people who have experienced that have female friends.

As for transphobic comments, trans slurs are not acceptable unless you are a trans person who has chosen to identify yourself in that way. Misgendering people or ignoring their pronouns is transphobic. Using given rather than chosen names is transphobic. Yes I know you're all still mad at Cynthia Webster, I'm not new here, I just lurk more than I post.

TL:DR
- I know the name isn't going to change
- The name does encourage a certain dialogue here
- Maybe when you make a thread pondering where all the women are, you might refrain from "I wiggle plenty of female muff" comments.
- Yes I have witnessed transphobic commentary here, I'm sure it's not always that way, but it does happen.
Joe.
chloelikescats wrote:
As for transphobic comments, trans slurs are not acceptable unless you are a trans person who has chosen to identify yourself in that way. Misgendering people or ignoring their pronouns is transphobic. Using given rather than chosen names is transphobic.


I'm so happy there's a emoticon specifically for these types of posts.

f u
Joe.
LoFi Junglist wrote:
chloelikescats wrote:
As for transphobic comments, trans slurs are not acceptable unless you are a trans person who has chosen to identify yourself in that way. Misgendering people or ignoring their pronouns is transphobic. Using given rather than chosen names is transphobic.


I'm so happy there's a emoticon specifically for these types of posts.

f u


EDIT: And because you have a history of misquoting people and manipulating the truth, here it is in plain English:

Pontification, specifically about an issue that isn't an issue is nothing more than trolling.

Criticism is only relevant when it's justified, and in response to something that's actually happened


so yeah, Fuck right off with your irrelevant, condescending posts.
ignatius
chloelikescats wrote:
I simply pointed out that SOMETIMES this place is not inclusive, and that some of the behaviors exhibited here inherently exclude people outside of an assumed culture (gender).


when you say "this place" you make it sound like all the many people here are one massive blob all doing the same things like a school of fish darting around in the ocean. so, perhaps you could be more specific. who when where what?

"exclude people outside of an assumed culture (gender)" - ok. i think i know what you mean. do you think all the members here assume all the other members are of one gender? or that we assume that all the members here are of a culture of synth music nerds? because that would make sense since this is a synth forum. or what is the assumed culture you are talking about? there's people from all over the world here from every age bracket. it's obvious the thing we have in common is synths and music.

chloelikescats wrote:
Constantly objectifying female bodies is not going to make women feel welcome here. And no, I am not just talking about the NSFW threads.


constantly? really? i'm not saying it doesn't happen now and then w/dumb comments but of all the threads that happen here i don't see constant anything. i mean.. even in the stupid/funny pics thread it's less common than in years past. and context is everything. worth repeating.

chloelikescats wrote:
Yes, I have received random follow requests from complete strangers who I had no interacted with on any level prior to their requests. I find this behavior unacceptable and threatening. I have been stalked online, and on more than one occasion that stalking has escalated to taking place in reality. I am not the only person who has experienced this, and in general the people who have experienced that have female friends.


i'm sorry you've experienced that. but.. welcome to the internet. it shrinks the world. creepy people can be creepy. lot's of people get lot's of friend requests from people they don't know for lot's of different reasons. i think it's wrong to characterize muffwiggler as some kind of well of perverts and stalkers waiting for posters to out themselves as women so they can go track them down on line and in real life. i think that's just absurd. sorry. but i do. and the forum can't be responsible for the rest of the internet or what each member does on his or her own time. and that's not to say that people don't get banned if if comes to light that they're ripping people off, treating people horribly or whatever.. there are rules etc here. if it was known that a member was stalking someone in real life there would be whatever repercussions were possible from the forum. has a forum member stalked you?

chloelikescats wrote:
As for transphobic comments, trans slurs are not acceptable unless you are a trans person who has chosen to identify yourself in that way. Misgendering people or ignoring their pronouns is transphobic. Using given rather than chosen names is transphobic. Yes I know you're all still mad at Cynthia Webster, I'm not new here, I just lurk more than I post.


yes it is but when has it happened except for when people were bitching at cynthia and once at wendy carlos??? and those people were called out.

but what is it you want? people to get banned every time they say something dumb? it takes a lot to get banned here. it's a forgiving place. mostly free of censorship within the rules/guidelines of the forum. someone has to really push it all the time outside accepted behaviors to get the ban. very few people have been banned here. i guess people get the benefit of the doubt and perhaps people can change so they get some chances to fall in line a bit and check themselves.

does any of that make sense or sound reasonable?
sduck
chloelikescats wrote:

At no point in this dialogue have I ever stated that the name should be changed.


Perhaps then you should start a thread to specifically discuss the issues you're wanting to address instead of hijacking this thread then. Perhaps in the Off Topic forum, where it would be more appropriate.

chloelikescats wrote:

Constantly objectifying female bodies is not going to make women feel welcome here. And no, I am not just talking about the NSFW threads.


This comment has no merit. Female bodies ARE NOT being objectified constantly. You're just trolling here.

chloelikescats wrote:

Yes, I have received random follow requests from complete strangers who I had no interacted with on any level prior to their requests. I find this behavior unacceptable and threatening. I have been stalked online, and on more than one occasion that stalking has escalated to taking place in reality. I am not the only person who has experienced this, and in general the people who have experienced that have female friends.


As has been said before, welcome to the internet. There are many guides to online safety while participating in social media - avail yourself of them. Quite simply, your problems with facebook/twitter/instagram/whatever are not something that we can control or change in any way.

chloelikescats wrote:
Yes I know you're all still mad at Cynthia Webster, I'm not new here, I just lurk more than I post.


I'd guess that the vast majority of people here who have any less than positive feelings about CW have them because of her less than honest business methods in the past. If I recall correctly only one person even mentioned the transgender thing once in that whole shebang. So please don't lump "us" all together in your determinations - your assumptions aren't serving you very well here.
Vsyevolod
chloelikescats wrote:
As for transphobic comments, trans slurs are not acceptable unless you are a trans person who has chosen to identify yourself in that way. Misgendering people or ignoring their pronouns is transphobic. Using given rather than chosen names is transphobic.


Is the entire world really reduce-able to these extreme statements? Is this my only option? Why would I choose to let you determine how the world works for me? BTW, I have plenty of experience with trans friends, I'm just suggesting that your extremisms embody a certain level of violence that I reject outright.

Is this how you try to be included in groups? I don't see any desire for back and forth discourse in your posts, just an urge to tell us all how it is with no possibility for your views to be held up to the light.

As others have pointed out, you are generalizing your issues onto the entire community. You make blanket statements that hold some truth and then destroy it all by casting blame all around you. You come across as if you've got it all figured out and just can't wait for the rest of us to evolve or enlighten. Somehow I can't see this as coming from a person who wants to be included. You know how the saying goes, "if you want a hug, you have to open your arms".

Stephen




.
strettara
Two brilliant posts from Vsyevolod and PrimateSynthesis.

Chloelikescats - my advice would be to relax, ignore what you find bad and enjoy the good. But where would be the fun in that?
slow_riot
Quite saddened to see this hostility towards someone trying to represent an unspoken set of views on the behaviour in this forum towards a potential demographic of multiple individuals. I don't think I can see one person acknowledging these views as valid or accepting that this individual is coming from a real life set of experiences that could lead to drawing these conclusions or perceiving things in this manner.
strettara
slow_riot wrote:
I don't think I can see one person acknowledging these views as valid or accepting that this individual is coming from a real life set of experiences that could lead to drawing these conclusions or perceiving things in this manner.


Or maybe they do accept that she's "coming from a real life set of experiences that could lead to drawing these conclusions or perceiving things in this manner", but they consider the conclusions she draws to be completely out of whack with how the forum actually is.

If someone is abused/unloved by his mother as a child, then he is likely to draw the conclusion that all women are basically manipulative, untrustworthy and unloving. That doesn't make it so.
slow_riot
strettara wrote:

If someone is abused/unloved by his mother as a child, then he is likely to draw the conclusion that all women are basically manipulative, untrustworthy and unloving. That doesn't make it so.


Actually I think research indicates that an abusive parent often creates a "vacuum" whereby the abused individual seeks to recreate that same familiar damaging relationship as there is an implicit trust and loving bond between a parent and a child, regardless of abusive doctrine.

I believe your implication is therefore that chloehatesmen and is extending this pattern of thought unfairly onto the forum? That's quite a lot to infer about an individual don't you think?
abstraktor
slow_riot wrote:
Quite saddened to see this hostility towards someone trying to represent an unspoken set of views on the behaviour in this forum towards a potential demographic of multiple individuals. I don't think I can see one person acknowledging these views as valid or accepting that this individual is coming from a real life set of experiences that could lead to drawing these conclusions or perceiving things in this manner.


I agree - there seems to be an over defensive reaction to a member who has expressed valid concerns over some content and behaviour on this forum. These concerns are shared by other members, yet the usual suspects trot out the same objections, some of which do make interesting points, but can't detract from a general air of hostility towards chloelikesscats. And there a few members who are openly taunting and trolling around this issue. Instead of questioning chloelikescats motives, why not turn around and question the motives of members who post genuinely foul content?
Here's an idea - have a policy which prevents racist, sexist and homophobic content from being tolerated. This won't affect the vast majority of users who come here to share knowledge and info, and will appear more welcoming to female, gay and transgender enthusiasts. For those who don't want to see an inclusive forum, well why don't you go off and create a forum where you can post all the sexist crap you want, and maybe discuss synths along the way. (see what I'm doing here JLR?). What possible objections would any decent minded person have to this proposed policy? Electro-music seems to have it, as does Basschat. So why not here?
Cue all the usual replies: It's Mike's forum, it's Social Warriors messing with our freedom of speech blah blah blah. The usual reactionary rhetoric.
Every time this issue comes up - and will so again and again, despite what some members hope - I feel genuinely saddened, to the point now where I'm near to closing my user account. So it goes.
strettara
slow_riot wrote:
I believe your implication is therefore that chloehatesmen and is extending this pattern of thought unfairly onto the forum? That's quite a lot to infer about an individual don't you think?


Nope - nothing of the sort. My second paragraph was only meant to be an example of how people's life experiences can cause them to draw incorrect conclusions. Ironically, you drew the wrong conclusion.
Joe.
slow_riot wrote:
I don't think I can see one person acknowledging these views as valid or accepting that this individual is coming from a real life set of experiences that could lead to drawing these conclusions or perceiving things in this manner.


Is empathizing with irrational people really that helpful?

Tolerating or "acknowledging views as valid" does nothing to help an individual displaying irrational behavior, I'd argue that it encourages them to continue the that type of behavior.

Every 'follow request' seen not just as unacceptable but a threat.
Belief that there is constant objectification of female bodies here.
Belief that the community is transphobic

I think trolling is a disgusting practice, and I honestly believe chloelikescats has been trolling in this thread with every post made.
The problem I have with that is that chloelikescats has used legitimate issues that plague society but not these forums to get the reactions that have been posted. It stinks of journalist bait.
strettara
strettara wrote:
slow_riot wrote:
I believe your implication is therefore that chloehatesmen and is extending this pattern of thought unfairly onto the forum? That's quite a lot to infer about an individual don't you think?


Nope - nothing of the sort. My second paragraph was only meant to be an example of how people's life experiences can cause them to draw incorrect conclusions. Ironically, you drew the wrong conclusion.


BTW, reading back:

slow_riot wrote:
There are considerate members of this community (those that didn't get forced out or banned that is) who are prepared to listen to what you think.


Surely this can't mean what I think it does?! Which considerate member could possibly have got banned...??? lol lol lol

Edited for humour.
strettara
Oh - there's no edit button anymore? Strange. Apologies for the double post, that was a mistake.
Rigo
strettara wrote:
Oh - there's no edit button anymore? Strange. Apologies for the double post, that was a mistake.

Maybe not so strange ... to avoid that people change their posts in this specific thread. No "I never wrote that" arguments.
JohnLRice
abstraktor wrote:
For those who don't want to see an inclusive forum, well why don't you go off and create a forum where you can post all the sexist crap you want, and maybe discuss synths along the way. (see what I'm doing here JLR?).
lol I see that you think you are being smart and clever but you are absolutely not. razz So many things poorly thought out . . .. meh

Quote:
What possible objections would any decent minded person have to this proposed policy? Electro-music seems to have it, as does Basschat. So why not here?
Why not just go there there then if you are happy with the way those are run?

Why is it that some people want everyone else to conform to their own personal standards where ever they waddle the righteous whiny asses into? meh
slow_riot
JohnLRice wrote:


Why is it that some people want everyone else to conform to their own personal standards where ever they waddle the righteous whiny asses into? meh


Because when our twisted neurotic carcasses are churned up by the organ grinder as we pass from this life to the next, the eternal question ringing through the indifferent multiverse as our souls reach their ethereal home will be "how did you treat those around you?"
JohnLRice
slow_riot wrote:
JohnLRice wrote:


Why is it that some people want everyone else to conform to their own personal standards where ever they waddle the righteous whiny asses into? meh


Because when our twisted neurotic carcasses are churned up by the organ grinder as we pass from this life to the next, the eternal question ringing through the indifferent multiverse as our souls reach their ethereal home will be "how did you treat those around you?"
Sorry, religious discussions are not allowed! hihi smack!
ignatius
abstraktor wrote:

Here's an idea - have a policy which prevents racist, sexist and homophobic content from being tolerated.


scroll down at this link

https://www.muffwiggler.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=35996

Quote:
No threats of violence.

No bigotry or intolerance of race, age, sexual preference etc..

No politics.
abstraktor
JohnLRice wrote:
abstraktor wrote:
For those who don't want to see an inclusive forum, well why don't you go off and create a forum where you can post all the sexist crap you want, and maybe discuss synths along the way. (see what I'm doing here JLR?).
lol I see that you think you are being smart and clever but you are absolutely not. razz So many things poorly thought out . . .. meh

Quote:
What possible objections would any decent minded person have to this proposed policy? Electro-music seems to have it, as does Basschat. So why not here?
Why not just go there there then if you are happy with the way those are run?

Why is it that some people want everyone else to conform to their own personal standards where ever they waddle the righteous whiny asses into? meh


Possibly not smart and clever, but more insightful than your additions to the debate. You are making others conform to your idea of 'freedom' and open-ness - to retain the right to post and enjoy offensive sexist material on this forum. You'll never understand that with freedom comes responsibility - this is a public forum not some private boy's club wank fest. Try and stifle debate by hurling insults by all means, but don't expect people to roll over and accept your idea of 'freedom'. Even on a synth forum. Now was that whiny enough for you?
ignatius
there are two long running threads of WTF photos, mostly funny but sometimes there are boobs and once in a while something "over the line" is posted. easily avoidable if you don't find those things funny or entertaining.

there is one maybe two times a shitty comment was made about a transgender person and in those instances the people were called out and discouraged from bringing those personal things into a discussion about business practices or copyright etc. and made aware it's not tolerated.

once in a while someone makes an off color comment about "wiggling female muff" or says "calm your tits" in some form or another... or is otherwise condescending.. once in a blue moon a shit heel dick bag reveals a not nice or tolerant or whatever.. side of personality.

otherwise this is a very inclusive place full of nice helpful people doing awesome stuff and being supportive of one another.

so, yeah.. that to me does not sound like a "private boys club wank fest" but you can characterize it however you like. seriously, i just don't get it
slow_riot
Do you think the attitude displayed towards a member who has been previously hesitant to contribute, and in order to back up their fairly reasoned argument has revealed details of their personal life including crimes against their person, who has been met with aggression, dismissal of the importance of such crimes "no one can hurt you on the internet", "deal with it", and in general extreme defensiveness about personal rights, or having their reasoning for these views discredited, is in itself indicative of a problem?
JohnLRice
abstraktor wrote:
You are making others conform to your idea of 'freedom' and open-ness - to retain the right to post and enjoy offensive sexist material on this forum.
And how am I "making" anyone do anything? I'm all for leaving things the way they are. You and a few others are trying to make everyone else change! meh

Quote:
You'll never understand that with freedom comes responsibility
A dramatic statement, did you pick that up from you're favorite soap opera? lol Just how do you know what I understand now and what understanding I'll gain in the future? Are you a mind reader, omnipotent being or maybe a time traveler? meh

Quote:
- this is a public forum
it is? I thought it was a privately owned forum.
ignatius
slow_riot wrote:
Do you think the attitude displayed towards a member who has been previously hesitant to contribute, and in order to back up their fairly reasoned argument has revealed details of their personal life including crimes against their person, who has been met with aggression, dismissal of the importance of such crimes "no one can hurt you on the internet", "deal with it", and in general extreme defensiveness about personal rights, or having their reasoning for these views discredited, is in itself indicative of a problem?


to me it sounds like she has bigger issues with the internet than just this forum. i think if you read back through the pages of this thread there are people trying to understand her but her arguments fail and her generalizations and assumptions are not serving her well or her argument which to me is not fairly reasoned.

i'm sorry she's had bad experiences on the internet with social media and that her experiences are causing her to see red flags everywhere on muffwiggler forum but the things she's saying just aren't true. "rampant sexism everywhere on the forum" - nope.. just a couple threads and boneheaded comment here or there.

if she's slightly traumatized by a stalker then she should find someone to talk to about it. trying to bend the internet to fit her arc isn't realistic and neither is it fair.

this is a reasonable place. different people will respond in different ways to accusations. are we supposed to have a meeting about how to respond to her posts and what tone we should use? or, as individuals can we express ourselves as we normally do?

if you find a person being a little too harsh for you then that's that.. i mean.. people have different styles of communication and getting to a point.. i really don't understand what you want?? what are your expectations about other people? we are not all the same. some people are quick to hand hold and others are more cynical. these are human beings here..

there's a lot of members here. most are ignoring this thread because it is forum drama to some degree and in the ones who are posting there are various opinions and obviously we aren't all seeing eye to eye.. this is life right? we can do this but still have this great thing in common that we all share... somehow we forget about that at times which is crazy imo. but is a large part of why there is no politics/religion subforum here.

so, no i don't see it as indicative as a problem. there are 15,000 members here and a couple of them are not saying things you like and somehow that means there is a trend or forum wide problem and we need to throw the brakes on and stop the train???

it's kind of insulting to say this place is just a naughty wtf pics thread. there's millions of posts.

also, all the usual forum tools are here if you don't like someone.. ignore them. use the ignore button..you don't ever have to see that person's posts or be exposed to them. there are lot's of personalities here and some will rub you the wrong way. so ignore them.
tIB
I gave up on this the last time it came up so I'm not quite sure why I'm getting sucked into this one...

Have you ever questioned why some folk do see here as having a 'boys club' mentality? I think it does and I'd much rather this wasn't the case. I don't see things changing either, which is a shame as there are obviously a number of people out there who aren't prepared to deal with the negative aspects of this site in the same way I am.
slow_riot
I'm not trying to change the forum, but I believe this issue is indicative of a wider dilemma that humanity is facing, a set of issues that often exists unseen, and I unfortunately think that much of this forum is really not up to speed with positive changes that have been made elsewhere in society. You say that the love of synths brings us together, why not use that shared passion to bridge the gap between these different life stories, rather than to treat concerns raised in good intention as a threat?
strettara
ignatius wrote:
otherwise this is a very inclusive place full of nice helpful people doing awesome stuff and being supportive of one another.


Dude. Some people are just better than us. It's as simple as that.
JohnLRice
slow_riot wrote:
I'm not trying to change the forum
It sure sounds like you are calling for change? hmmm.....

Quote:
, but I believe this issue

which issue?

Quote:
is indicative of a wider dilemma that humanity is facing, a set of issues that often exists unseen,

Which issues?

Quote:
and I unfortunately think that much of this forum

How much of the forum?

Quote:
is really not up to speed with positive changes that have been made elsewhere in society.

What changes?
strettara
slow_riot wrote:
I believe this issue is indicative of a wider dilemma that humanity is facing


Fucking hell lol lol lol
ignatius
if women show up and start posting, things will change just by their presence and awareness of their presence.

but again.. i don't see rampant sexism on the forum.

if there are specific instances of intolerance in any form then mods should be directed to those threads. mods don't see everything and aren't monitoring every post. so, if you see something send the link to a mod.
Joe.
strettara wrote:
slow_riot wrote:
I believe this issue is indicative of a wider dilemma that humanity is facing


Fucking hell lol lol lol


Actually the issue ("is x word offensive") is indicative of a wider dilemma that humanity is facing, that dilemma is called instant world wide communication, or The Internet.

Now that humans are globally connected we have individuals, from different speech communities who are dabbling in a global community.

Previously a speech community could develop a meaning for a word and use it in almost complete isolation, They developed their own understanding of what every word in their community's vocabulary meant to them, with no regard to how outsiders use the world.

The term 'Ignorant' is a great example, it has become an insult in some speech communities in North America, indicating someone who 'ignores facts'.
Take a person from that speech community, mix them into a global discussion on the internet, and suddenly people have to second guess what a word (they think they already know) means, based on the context of the use.

In normal conversation, in an isolated speech community, a word's meaning is renegotiated every-time it's used, and normally it remains unchanged. It takes a significant amount of time for a meaning to drift, because it takes the majority of people in that speech community to change their beliefs and agree on the meaning.

Now we have the situation where humans are coming together globally, With no diplomatic training, with no awareness of sociolinguistics, with no awareness of what ethnocentric views are.

Is the world suddenly going to adopt one view on what every word means now that we have the Internet? I don't think so.

The internet may have allowed humans to interact globally, but it is still segregated into smaller speech communities, and word meanings continue to evolve and drift within those communities.
I can think of a dozen terms of endearment that one forum uses, that would all be considered vulgar by this forum. It is accepted by a majority of their users, and to raid their forum and start belittling them because of their language would of course result in community backlash. The same type of backlash you see in this forum, in this thread.

Trying to force ideologies onto others seems like something we would recognise as 'wrong' by now, but i suspect it's something we can't control, something primal.
Joe.
Can't edit to change all the verb tense errors. So frustrating.
AlanP
Firstly, I only assume that a poster is male or female if they have an avatar that looks like it could be them, like ignatius. (I have no idea what he looks like or his physical ability IRL, but I tend to picture him as being his avatar.) For a long time I thought someone on another forum was a very attractive female, and was shocked to find that he was a dude.

LoFi Junglist wrote:
The internet may have allowed humans to interact globally, but it is still segregated into smaller speech communities, and word meanings continue to evolve and drift within those communities.
I can think of a dozen terms of endearment that one forum uses, that would all be considered vulgar by this forum. It is accepted by a majority of their users, and to raid their forum and start belittling them because of their language would of course result in community backlash. The same type of backlash you see in this forum, in this thread.


It's an aging term that the younger generation in NZ don't use much at all (partly due to internationalisation and American media), but close friends might call each other a "good c*nt", and mean it in a completely positive way.

If the same person uses the word towards another person not in that circle, it's intended as an insult, and a strong one.

Barry Crump wrote an excellent book once, "Bastards I Have Met". Good read, damn good writer. And no, he didn't mean that they were all wankers.

The same word can have vastly different meanings based on the context. In some social circles, it's common to insult the absolute living shit out of your mates, and get polite in the extreme to people you can't stand.

And if you think MW is bad, then I pray you never encounter the likes of 4chan or Something Awful. This forum is entirely peopled with Jesus, Buddha, and Ghandi compared to there.
JohnLRice
LoFi Junglist wrote:
Can't edit to change all the verb tense errors. So frustrating.
Regardless of any typos, I thought it was a very good post! thumbs up
Demi Jon
LoFi Junglist wrote:
Trying to force ideologies onto others seems like something we would recognise as 'wrong' by now, but i suspect it's something we can't control, something primal.


I don't think any of us on the other side from you, ignatius, Muffwiggler, JohnLRice, or strettara are trying to 'force' anything -- we are hoping to encourage more inclusiveness, consideration and sensitivity. Someone felt threatened, and the response has likely felt to her like NOBODY HERE IS THREATENING!!!

The reason we are all here is because we are interested in very complex systems, which take time to learn and are constantly progressing. Human interaction is like that too -- why are you so resistant to adapt to changing ways of interaction? It doesn't cost you anything (unlike say, a Tyme Sefari), and takes a bit of quite painless effort but it's easy once you learn it (just like a Tyme Sefari).
JohnLRice
Demi Jon wrote:
I don't think any of us on the other side from you, ignatius, Muffwiggler, JohnLRice, or strettara are trying to 'force' anything -- we are hoping to encourage more inclusiveness, consideration and sensitivity.
inclusiveness, consideration and sensitivity are all good things, so long as they work both ways. One person or group saying that they refuse to feel included until certain elements are excluded, seems inconsiderate, insensitive and hypocritical to me.

Quote:
The reason we are all here is because we are interested in very complex systems, which take time to learn and are constantly progressing. Human interaction is like that too -- why are you so resistant to adapt to changing ways of interaction? It doesn't cost you anything (unlike say, a Tyme Sefari), and takes a bit of quite painless effort but it's easy once you learn it (just like a Tyme Sefari).
Why are you resistant to adapt to the MuffWiggler environment that you entered by choice? Why do you think the way you think is the way everyone should think? meh
ignatius
Demi Jon wrote:
LoFi Junglist wrote:
Trying to force ideologies onto others seems like something we would recognise as 'wrong' by now, but i suspect it's something we can't control, something primal.


I don't think any of us on the other side from you, ignatius, Muffwiggler, JohnLRice, or strettara are trying to 'force' anything -- we are hoping to encourage more inclusiveness, consideration and sensitivity. Someone felt threatened, and the response has likely felt to her like NOBODY HERE IS THREATENING!!!


i'm still confused as to the nature of the threat. seems other than some comments lashing out at cynthia webster and wendy carlos long ago and the "wiggled lot's of female muff" type comments here and there, which i still think are rare, that her issue is wider than muff wiggler and the threat she feels came from her stalker scenario which could've originated anywhere. if she feels threatened by this forum she hasn't directed anyone to the source of that threat and if you throw a link to the NSFW stupid pics thread that's easily avoided by anyone and hardly referenced elsewhere on the site.

Demi Jon wrote:
The reason we are all here is because we are interested in very complex systems, which take time to learn and are constantly progressing. Human interaction is like that too -- why are you so resistant to adapt to changing ways of interaction? It doesn't cost you anything (unlike say, a Tyme Sefari), and takes a bit of quite painless effort but it's easy once you learn it (just like a Tyme Sefari).


i think this place is constantly evolving and changing. perhaps this thread is part of it. perhaps the end result will be positive .. let's hope so. but it's a hard thing to measure and is something that just happens on its own. 6 months, a year.. we'll see what this place looks like.

i still don't know where the "rampant sexism" is? and i'll say again.. if it happens in the course of a conversation please alert a moderator and feel free to call out the poster on the shitty behavior. my guess is the forum will stand behind you or anyone who points out that kind of stuff.
sduck
Demi Jon wrote:
Human interaction is like that too -- why are you so resistant to adapt to changing ways of interaction?


What exactly is this changing ways of interaction? I'm trying to understand what is being proposed here. Please define it in a way that will make sense to everyone you wish it to apply to. In other words, what exactly are the changes you want made to this forum?
Joe.
LoFi Junglist wrote:
Trying to force ideologies onto others seems like something we would recognise as 'wrong' by now, but i suspect it's something we can't control, something primal.


Actually this assertion seems 'wrong', now that I've thought about it and read the responses.

Ignoring my poor phrasing ('force' instead of 'introduce') the reason we want others to adopt our ideologies seems pretty clear now, its a safety thing.

If others adopt our ideologies then we don't have to fear anything 'unethical' happening to us. we feel comfortable, we can relax, we can explore our artistic side etc etc.

This desire isn't wrong, but it does rely on the idea that there is a set of 'superior ideologies' or 'Ideal ethics'. Is there anything more contentious, or that has started more wars in human history?
Chiffre
ignatius wrote:
if women show up and start posting, things will change just by their presence and awareness of their presence.

but again.. i don't see rampant sexism on the forum.

if there are specific instances of intolerance in any form then mods should be directed to those threads. mods don't see everything and aren't monitoring every post. so, if you see something send the link to a mod.


I have seen some some very graphic and vulgar images that I would personally not consider appropriate in any context despite the poster being aware of the presence of ladies on the forum. While said images might not meet the definition of "rampant sexism" I think they would easily meet the definition of sexism.

Should I send you the above referenced links?
ignatius
Chiffre wrote:
ignatius wrote:
if women show up and start posting, things will change just by their presence and awareness of their presence.

but again.. i don't see rampant sexism on the forum.

if there are specific instances of intolerance in any form then mods should be directed to those threads. mods don't see everything and aren't monitoring every post. so, if you see something send the link to a mod.


I have seen some some very graphic and vulgar images that I would personally not consider appropriate in any context despite the poster being aware of the presence of ladies on the forum. While said images might not meet the definition of "rampant sexism" I think they would easily meet the definition of sexism.

Should I send you the above referenced links?


are they all in the NSFW pics thread?

but yeah.. please do send me links via pm. i'm curious about dates of the posts actually. i have a theory that that thread has gotten tamer in the last year. it had a rather over the edge arc a year or so ago and since has been more funny than edgy but opinions vary of course.
JohnLRice
Chiffre wrote:
I have seen some some very graphic and vulgar images that I would personally not consider appropriate in any context . . .

I agree. I've seen some things posted that personally turned my stomach. I either said nothing or voiced my displeasure and then avoided the person (if the offending stuff was always going on), the thread or the subforum all together. In fact I almost never venture into the off topic and Members only forums because I'm mainly here for synths and hang out in 5U mostly and occasionally poke around in eurorack, modular general, DIY, for sale, etc

Quote:
. . . despite the poster being aware of the presence of ladies on the forum. While said images might not meet the definition of "rampant sexism" I think they would easily meet the definition of sexism.
From my experience not ALL ladies are offended by the same things. Suggesting that they do sounds like out right sexism to me. seriously, i just don't get it
ignatius
JohnLRice wrote:
Chiffre wrote:
I have seen some some very graphic and vulgar images that I would personally not consider appropriate in any context . . .

I agree. I've seen some things posted that personally turned my stomach. I either said nothing or voiced my displeasure and then avoided the person (if the offending stuff was always going on), the thread or the subforum all together. In fact I almost never venture into the off topic and Members only forums because I'm mainly here for synths and hang out in 5U mostly and occasionally poke around in eurorack, modular general, DIY, for sale, etc

Quote:
. . . despite the poster being aware of the presence of ladies on the forum. While said images might not meet the definition of "rampant sexism" I think they would easily meet the definition of sexism.
From my experience not ALL ladies are offended by the same things. Suggesting that they do sounds like out right sexism to me. seriously, i just don't get it


syzy used to be around more and would take part in the stupid pics thread now and then. had the pleasure to meet her when she came through PDX on her move west. she was at the synth meet in May too! i haven't seen her around in a while. i think she's too damn busy with life/career change to spend time here...

anyway...
Demi Jon
JohnLRice wrote:
inclusiveness, consideration and sensitivity are all good things, so long as they work both ways. One person or group saying that they refuse to feel included until certain elements are excluded, seems inconsiderate, insensitive and hypocritical to me.

Why are you resistant to adapt to the MuffWiggler environment that you entered by choice? Why do you think the way you think is the way everyone should think? meh


The MW that you signed up for years ago has grown considerably since then -- it was a small group of mates and many of you are still here, still bantering the way you always have. And that's totally cool and understandable.

But picture the forum as a party, except a party where anyone at that party can hear your conversation. You don't know 99% of the people at the party any more. Even though it's your party, you've made it an open invitation, so people with very different views are now at your party.

As someone much earlier in this thread (like, waaaay back), they wouldn't talk like this (i.e. 'wiggling female muff') around their girlfriend or their mother.

Slightly off-colour jokes are fine when everyone in the conversation feels safe, because there is trust amongst the group. But not everyone knows when you are joking if they don't know you. That's why -- to reference LoFi Junglist's argument earlier -- it may be fine to use the n-word when you are hanging out with a community which has embraced and empowered that word, but you wouldn't assume that it's ok to say it in front of any African-American person you might meet.
mmelnick
Muffwiggler = Comet shirt
ignatius
if you're not sure if someone is joking you can ask "are you fucking joking?"

and if you hang out a bit you'll get to know people and personalities and you can decide if you want to ignore someone or give them a chance.

but even at parties if someone is going on and on about something that is not your interest do you sit and listen? i usually walk away at an opportune time.

and the party is usually bundles of people in different places having conversations all their own and intermingling at times right? a group in the kitchen.. smokers on the porch.. some sequestered potheads in a side room..

it's obvious the site has expanded and there's tons of new people. but subforums for different formats and DIY etc.. multiple conversations going on all the time.

sometimes people get hung up on little snips of conversations when they overhear them and it ruins their day and they miss all the other things around them instead of just letting go of some misunderstood phrase.. at least at parties.. on the forum we can read and reread everything and bring it up again and ask questions and come back to them.. "are you fucking joking?" for example.

there are a lot of new people getting to know one another and know the forum all at the same time. so there's bound to be growing pains until people "get it" and are comfortable.

this is still the best damn synth forum on the net. it's a special place and always has been.
JohnLRice
Demi Jon wrote:
JohnLRice wrote:
inclusiveness, consideration and sensitivity are all good things, so long as they work both ways. One person or group saying that they refuse to feel included until certain elements are excluded, seems inconsiderate, insensitive and hypocritical to me.

Why are you resistant to adapt to the MuffWiggler environment that you entered by choice? Why do you think the way you think is the way everyone should think? meh


The MW that you signed up for years ago has grown considerably since then -- it was a small group of mates and many of you are still here, still bantering the way you always have. And that's totally cool and understandable.

But picture the forum as a party, except a party where anyone at that party can hear your conversation. You don't know 99% of the people at the party any more. Even though it's your party, you've made it an open invitation, so people with very different views are now at your party.

As someone much earlier in this thread (like, waaaay back), they wouldn't talk like this (i.e. 'wiggling female muff') around their girlfriend or their mother.

Slightly off-colour jokes are fine when everyone in the conversation feels safe, because there is trust amongst the group. But not everyone knows when you are joking if they don't know you. That's why -- to reference LoFi Junglist's argument earlier -- it may be fine to use the n-word when you are hanging out with a community which has embraced and empowered that word, but you wouldn't assume that it's ok to say it in front of any African-American person you might meet.
Some good points there! thumbs up

I still think that a lot of responsibility lies with the "new comers to the party" though. Like if you walk into a particular room and some activity is going on that makes you uncomfortable, but you stay and start telling people how you feel, if they are cool they'll tell you this is what we like to do but we only do it in this room so try some of the other rooms since they are tamer and this stuff isn't allowed. If you are a cool guest you'll thank them and leave to check out the other rooms and maybe to do a little bonding and generate an inclusive atmosphere smile and say something like "have fun but try not to hurt yourselves too bad" or what ever. Maybe the next time you come back to the party you bring some beverages and snacks for everyone to share and make a point of mentioning it to the folks in the 'offensive' room so THEY feel included which should generate some mutual respect, letting them know that even though you don't like, don't want to participate and are actually horrified at what they are doing, you don't hate them as people and are fine with them so long as they don't try to coerce or force you to take part. If they are cool, when they see you they'll make a point of not exposing you to what makes you uncomfortable because you've shown them respect.

If you are an uncool new comer guest, you might write a blog article condemning the party for all the things you see as 'wrong' with it and then come back to the party and act butt hurt when everyone doesn't welcome you with open arms.
strettara
JohnLRice wrote:
If you are an uncool new comer guest, you might write a blog article condemning the party for all the things you see as 'wrong' with it and then come back to the party and act butt hurt when everyone doesn't welcome you with open arms.


Which is pretty much what happened with that woman who wrote the "sexism on on-line audio forums" blog post. Although in reality, everyone did welcome her with open arms when she made her presence known, however much they may have disagreed with her position. She was not met with aggression or anger at all, as far as I recall.

I think it's good that people get worked up about stuff - sexism, what's music and which is the best VCO - because these debates can definitely change the way a person thinks about things. And I can tend to be a bit dismissive of other people's views, for which I apologise (slow riot, mate... sorry). But - I've learned, over many years, that this kind of energetic espousal of a principled position is characteristic of a person's early involvement with the issue - they generally tend to relax about things later on. I used to be sure I was going to change the world by posting about Israel/Palestine or whatever. Or what music is lol lol lol Well, I can't take myself so seriously anymore.

But just as my position on what music is has definitely been changed by engaging in such heated discussions - although I'd never admit it during the argument itself - so I'm sure that this discussion and the many others like it over the last two years I've been on the forum will have a positive effect for the community, although most probably you won't see it in this thread while it's happening. So... it's all good.

Finally, check the new forum motto. Hits the nail on the head imo.
listentoaheartbeat
chloelikescats wrote:
I think the name invites and reinforces a certain dialogue/culture. It's definitely not inclusive or inviting to anyone outside of that presumed culture. I think the dismissiveness towards anyone who disagrees is problematic.

I think this article does a pretty good job explaining why this culture is not inclusive:
http://pinknoisemag.com/essays/show-us-your-racks


I am quoting this initial post because I cannot think of a more considerate way of pointing at this issue, and I think it's saddening that the community is not able to seize the opportunity and question certain power dynamics which are at work in synthesizer culture.

Instead, the common ignorance is mutually reinforced. The synth lingo in this forum is deeply interwoven with the objectivation of women. One example would be the standard phrase of "filling her up [with modules]" or "patching her up [with cables]". The connotation of a modular synth being female alone is alienating and reinforces the male dominance in this culture.

Changing the forum's subheading to "you'll find what you're looking for, life's like that" is an insulting attempt to trivialize the issue, and a cowardly one, too.
listentoaheartbeat
Accidently quoted my post instead of editing, sorry. Made a change in the second paragraph to exemplify my point.
strettara
listentoaheartbeat wrote:
The connotation of a modular synth (which you own, control, and use) being female alone is alienating and reinforces the male dominance in this culture.


Or: the connotation of a modular synth (which you enjoy, have fun with and love making music with and coming to this forum to enthuse about with like-minded people)...

Like it says, "you'll find what you're looking for". Too bad your cup seems to be half empty.

N.B.: I never thought of my synth as a female when I had one, but nonetheless.
Joe.
listentoaheartbeat wrote:
The synth lingo in this forum is deeply interwoven with the objectivation of women. One example would be the standard phrase of "filling her up [with modules]" or "patching her up [with cables]". The connotation of a modular synth (which you own, control, and use) being female alone is alienating and reinforces the male dominance in this culture.


No, and ships aren't called 'she' because they're 'owned and controlled' either... It has to do with our language's family tree, Specifically the french influence and 'noun genders'.

I'm glad you have a passion for reading, but I beg you to read essays that are referenced and peer reviewed to check their relevance, 'Google scholar' is a great way to find legitimate writing that you can rely on when making assertions.

The 'essay' you linked explains a lot of your attitudes in this thread, but i assure you that piece would fail any 1st year uni topic, including women's studies.
It was clearly written by someone disenfranchised with society, and it almost defines the term 'toxic feminism': The piece's extremist views, and falsehoods have left you with beliefs that are not truths, repeating them will alienate yourself from academic feminists.
cretaceousear
listentoaheartbeat wrote:
[One example would be the standard phrase of "filling her up [with modules]" or "patching her up [with cables]". The connotation of a modular synth being female alone is alienating and reinforces the male dominance in this culture.


Funny - I've never once seen that. I'm sure it's been written but, and I read a lot of threads, I've not seen it.
It's far more common in the guitar world to refer to one's axe as female.
So axe = female, hmm, mixed metaphors.

However.. personification is not derogatory. It may refer back to the bestowal of divine powers on nature, but it's the opposite of objectification.
ignatius
synthesizer culture?
guitar culture
tuba culture
trumpet culture
drummer culture
softsynth culture

wtf is going on here.. music culture?

the generalizations are fucking ridiculous and insulting to many women who make music with all kinds of gear and have no fucks to give about internet forums.

just throwing this out there.. it is possible to over analyze every damn word posted here and look at them for hours under a magnifying glass and try to link disparate posts from a few people into some kind of trend then tuck the whole forum into the rear of the trend you just made up. i think this is how fox news works.

for some reason this reminds me of something a friend of mine told me. she played a show recently opening for a well known electronic/pop musician who is also female.. the promoter made it a point to put "female electronic producer" next to my friend's name on all the promotional materials.. this annoyed my friend.. she said "Wtf.. why does that need to be on the flyer? i'm just another person making music? why does any reference to my gender need mentioning?"

i told her there are a couple possibilities (which she already considered)

marketing ploy
the promoter was patting himself on the back in some way
he's a dumbass
ignatius
LoFi Junglist wrote:
listentoaheartbeat wrote:
The synth lingo in this forum is deeply interwoven with the objectivation of women. One example would be the standard phrase of "filling her up [with modules]" or "patching her up [with cables]". The connotation of a modular synth (which you own, control, and use) being female alone is alienating and reinforces the male dominance in this culture.


No, and ships aren't called 'she' because they're 'owned and controlled' either... It has to do with our language's family tree, Specifically the french influence and 'noun genders'.

I'm glad you have a passion for reading, but I beg you to read essays that are referenced and peer reviewed to check their relevance, 'Google scholar' is a great way to find legitimate writing that you can rely on when making assertions.

The 'essay' you linked explains a lot of your attitudes in this thread, but i assure you that piece would fail any 1st year uni topic, including women's studies.
It was clearly written by someone disenfranchised with society, and it almost defines the term 'toxic feminism': The piece's extremist views, and falsehoods have left you with beliefs that are not truths, repeating them will alienate yourself from academic feminists.


fucking ay! thumbs up applause
PrimateSynthesis
JohnLRice wrote:

I still think that a lot of responsibility lies with the "new comers to the party" though. Like if you walk into a particular room and some activity is going on that makes you uncomfortable, but you stay and start telling people how you feel, if they are cool they'll tell you this is what we like to do but we only do it in this room so try some of the other rooms since they are tamer and this stuff isn't allowed.


Although perhaps the forum would be a more gracious host, and that problem would be solved, by simply moving the picture threads in Off-Topic to Members Only It's peanut butter jelly time!

I bet 75 quatloos on the newcomers. Just by having to hang around a bit to get to know people first, they would be far less likely to jump to conclusions about the entire forum based on a couple of threads w00t
listentoaheartbeat
LoFi Junglist wrote:
listentoaheartbeat wrote:
The synth lingo in this forum is deeply interwoven with the objectivation of women. One example would be the standard phrase of "filling her up [with modules]" or "patching her up [with cables]". The connotation of a modular synth (which you own, control, and use) being female alone is alienating and reinforces the male dominance in this culture.


No, and ships aren't called 'she' because they're 'owned and controlled' either... It has to do with our language's family tree, Specifically the french influence and 'noun genders'.

I'm glad you have a passion for reading, but I beg you to read essays that are referenced and peer reviewed to check their relevance, 'Google scholar' is a great way to find legitimate writing that you can rely on when making assertions.

The 'essay' you linked explains a lot of your attitudes in this thread, but i assure you that piece would fail any 1st year uni topic, including women's studies.
It was clearly written by someone disenfranchised with society, and it almost defines the term 'toxic feminism': The piece's extremist views, and falsehoods have left you with beliefs that are not truths, repeating them will alienate yourself from academic feminists.


I didn't link the article and it didn't have much of an impact on me either. Reading Karen Barad definitely had an impact on me, which may have contributed to my post in this thread. Maybe I should beg you to read Barad, but I get this feeling that you'll find a convenient way to ignore the issues she addresses, too. I just think that chloelikescats (who linked the article) made a few good points and this community would benefit from opening up to some of the ideas she hinted at.
listentoaheartbeat
LoFi Junglist wrote:
listentoaheartbeat wrote:
The synth lingo in this forum is deeply interwoven with the objectivation of women. One example would be the standard phrase of "filling her up [with modules]" or "patching her up [with cables]". The connotation of a modular synth (which you own, control, and use) being female alone is alienating and reinforces the male dominance in this culture.


No, and ships aren't called 'she' because they're 'owned and controlled' either... It has to do with our language's family tree, Specifically the french influence and 'noun genders'.


As a native German speaker, who knows a thing or two about grammatical gender, let me explain this to you in more detail:

The grammatical gender of the word 'synthesizer' is neuter. Which is why referring to it as "her" is sexist and alienating, especially if used in phrases like "filling her up" or "patching her up", which are all over the forum. Just a few examples:

https://www.muffwiggler.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=210828
https://www.muffwiggler.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=441351
https://www.muffwiggler.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=809705
https://www.muffwiggler.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=1470812
https://www.muffwiggler.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2393
listentoaheartbeat
ignatius wrote:
it is possible to over analyze every damn word posted here and look at them for hours under a magnifying glass and try to link disparate posts from a few people into some kind of trend then tuck the whole forum into the rear of the trend you just made up.


The problem about the alienations taking place through language is that many people are so used to it that they barely even notice.

I certainly didn't need a magnifying glass to see it - I think it's pretty obvious how common sexist language is here on the forum.
ignatius
listentoaheartbeat wrote:
LoFi Junglist wrote:
listentoaheartbeat wrote:
The synth lingo in this forum is deeply interwoven with the objectivation of women. One example would be the standard phrase of "filling her up [with modules]" or "patching her up [with cables]". The connotation of a modular synth (which you own, control, and use) being female alone is alienating and reinforces the male dominance in this culture.


No, and ships aren't called 'she' because they're 'owned and controlled' either... It has to do with our language's family tree, Specifically the french influence and 'noun genders'.


As a native German speaker, who knows a thing or two about grammatical gender, let me explain this to you in more detail:

The grammatical gender of the word 'synthesizer' is neuter. Which is why referring to it as "her" is sexist and alienating, especially if used in phrases like "filling her up" or "patching her up", which are all over the forum. Just a few examples:

https://www.muffwiggler.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=210828
https://www.muffwiggler.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=441351
https://www.muffwiggler.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=809705
https://www.muffwiggler.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=1470812
https://www.muffwiggler.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2393


so you consider this sexism? or offensive?

so if i name my synth i can't give it a female name?

my friend named his bike and gave it a female name because it's named after a horse he knew. is this sexist? is it sexist if he says "i'm taking rosy out for a ride" or "hey, good to see you.. have you met my bike, rosy?"

really.. i think people need to allow for cultural differences between nations, languages, regions etc.. as well as colloquialisms.

is it ok for one person to to roll his/her eyes at something and think it's stupid and just leave it at that or does everything have to become a federal case and marked and pushed into a column for proper categorization and discussion by intellectuals?
JohnLRice
listentoaheartbeat wrote:
As a native German speaker, who knows a thing or two about grammatical gender, let me explain this to you in more detail:

The grammatical gender of the word 'synthesizer' is neuter. Which is why referring to it as "her" is sexist and alienating, especially if used in phrases like "filling her up" or "patching her up", which are all over the forum.
How then, can you feel good about calling yourself a "German speaker"? hmmm..... seriously, i just don't get it lol Maybe Germany should be renamed to 'Gerpersony' and only speak the 'Gerperson' language? razz Mr. Green
ignatius
listentoaheartbeat wrote:
ignatius wrote:
it is possible to over analyze every damn word posted here and look at them for hours under a magnifying glass and try to link disparate posts from a few people into some kind of trend then tuck the whole forum into the rear of the trend you just made up.


The problem about the alienations taking place through language is that many people are so used to it that they barely even notice.

I certainly didn't need a magnifying glass to see it - I think it's pretty obvious how common sexist language is here on the forum.


i'd argue it's no different in real life. people commonly say "girl" when referring to a 40 year old woman for example.. these are larger things that are bigger than the forum and as language changes out there it will change in here.. it's a larger cultural shift happening and it takes time..

think...

stewardess -> flight attendant
my girl -> secretary -> executive assistant

etc etc etc etc..

i'd also argue that though you posted a few links it's still not that common seriously, i just don't get it
sduck
And it's certainly not anything we (the mods) can do anything about.

We can't add some kind of oath of "non-sexist-language-using" when a newbie signs up.

We can't think REALLY HARD about it and get people to stop using it.

We definitely won't be editing posts to eliminate it.

The best thing we, and you, can do is "be the change you want to see" - and perhaps by good example you can affect how others act.
ronaldroy
If you no longer wish to watch this topic you can either click the "Stop watching this topic link" found at the bottom of the topic above, or by clicking the following link:

https://www.muffwiggler.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=488&unwatch=topic
ngarjuna
I'm not against having the conversation and I am in favor of sharpening my language in a wide variety of manners. I liked the party analogy, I agree that obviously a lot of things are said on the internet that those same people would definitely not say in 'polite' company.

But...if you come in to the party and just go around trying to make the guests feel badly about who they are...well you can see that's not gonna fly, right? There is a cultural norm at the party, it's what everyone brought to the table. It's not perfect by all standards (in fact it would be impossible to be) but it's ours, we're okay with it. You think you can make our party even better? We're probably cool with that. We like better. But that's not the same thing as trying to make us feel shitty for thinking we were enjoying ourselves...we actually were.

An accusation is not a conversation. And to me that's what's tedious about this discussion of what is otherwise a reasonable and potentially interesting subject.

I wasn't even going to participate in this thread but what drew me in was the assertion that all gender assignment to neutral objects in English is inherently sexist; to me, as a native English speaker, that is nonsense.
listentoaheartbeat
ngarjuna wrote:
I wasn't even going to participate in this thread but what drew me in was the assertion that all gender assignment to neutral objects in English is inherently sexist; to me, as a native English speaker, that is nonsense.


Well, I didn't make a general assertion. I was referring to a specific case and specific phrases, relevant in this specific context.
ngarjuna
listentoaheartbeat wrote:
ngarjuna wrote:
I wasn't even going to participate in this thread but what drew me in was the assertion that all gender assignment to neutral objects in English is inherently sexist; to me, as a native English speaker, that is nonsense.


Well, I didn't make a general assertion. I was referring to a specific case and specific phrases, relevant in this specific context.

Ah okay, then I apologize for putting words in your mouth.

For me, the phrase
"patch her up"
is very, very normal. I come from the Midwest and to use "her/she" for a wide variety of objects is very normal. In some cases perhaps there is a nefarious, objectifying origin for the term; but mostly it's just normal every day personification that is, as I mentioned, quite commonplace in speech in that part of the country. Incidentally, it's not always gender assigned to a female; and usually, amongst the more skilled conversationalists, the choice is usually based on phonetic choices (ie. alliteration, poetic flow) rather than the underlying connotation. Another common example, just to show that it goes both ways in the midwest, is to replace "it" with "bad boy" as in "let's fire that bad boy up".

So to say that even that phrase has an inherently sexually charged connotation is potentially unfair.
Muff Wiggler
I suppose since language is inherently sexist and society inherently patriarchal (both ideas I find myself in agreement with), and this forum has found itself in the unfortunate position of using both language and being part of society, umm....

I suppose we could shut the whole thing down then? I suppose that's the point we are moving towards. I can't see how that would help. But we could chalk it up as a "win" for progress. "We did our part against the tyranny of words"

Wouldn't be a total wash, someone could probably spin the situation into tenure?
ignatius
listentoaheartbeat wrote:
ngarjuna wrote:
I wasn't even going to participate in this thread but what drew me in was the assertion that all gender assignment to neutral objects in English is inherently sexist; to me, as a native English speaker, that is nonsense.


Well, I didn't make a general assertion. I was referring to a specific case and specific phrases, relevant in this specific context.


right but his point still stands. regional colloquialisms, cultural differences etc.. all of that is as relevant here as anywhere. the internet, as we're all aware, is a giant real time melting pot.. instant melting pot really.. so, you have to allow for the possibility that a you are making a wrong assumption based on your cultural background.. for example..

"why did that british guy just say he wants to go smoke a fag?"

and still.. i don't see "patch her up" as sexist.. and still think if someone wants to name his synth/bike/boat whatever then one can name it whatever one wants be male or female name etc.. seriously, i just don't get it
Joe.
Quote:
The grammatical gender of the word 'synthesizer' is neuter.

In the German language. We treat inanimate objects (and abstract ideas) differently in English.

Mention French influence, get a response about German grammar meh

If anyone's interested in the way the internet is threatening the English language I'd recommend "The secret life of words and their origins", by Professor Anne Curzan, her book "Gender Shifts in the History of English" isn't really required as a primer.
Her work is academic, and won't lead to the type of radicalization that we're seeing as a result of "Internet Essays" thumbs up
metasonix
.....must.....post.....ponies......
JohnLRice
metasonix wrote:
.....must.....post.....ponies......
hmmm..... I think you just like spankings too much! hihi
listentoaheartbeat
LoFi Junglist wrote:
Quote:
The grammatical gender of the word 'synthesizer' is neuter.

In the German language. We treat inanimate objects (and abstract ideas) differently in English.

Mention French influence, get a response about German grammar meh


Not at all, in German language the grammatical gender of "synthesizer" is masculine, not neuter.

According to the English grammar rules I looked up, inanimate objects (like a synthesizer) are referred to as "it" (with a few traditional exceptions like ships and countries).

But that's all besides the point, which you are trying to dismiss by selectively quoting without the relevant context: The use of "her" for a synth when it's being "filled up" or "patched up", instead of using the common pronoun "it".
ignatius
listentoaheartbeat wrote:


According to the English grammar rules I looked up, inanimate objects (like a synthesizer) are referred to as "it" (with a few traditional exceptions like ships and countries).


sorry, but that's not correct. do more research.

by not correct i mean it's incomplete. there are many different parts of america speaking their own american english with those colloquialisms again.. and not to mention that within those various regional america speak there's different ethnic backgrounds, slang etc etc.. so there's a whole mess of words up in this place so "traditional exceptions" are a load of shit. there's nothing but exceptions all day long.
thetwlo
just wanted to apologize for being an asshole here.
Sincerely sorry about that. Poor judgement Guinness ftw!
does not help this discussion at all. d'oh!
This is a great place with many amazing people!
Will try to make it better!
Dr. Sketch-n-Etch
Wow, I just noticed that this thread has grown by about 20 pages in the last two days. I also noticed that the Baboon got one posting in before he was not only re-banned, but his posting was removed. That kind of totalitarianism is, to me, more offensive than any name could ever be.

Anyway, on topic: Yes, the name is mildly offensive. Chloelikescats, here are the facts as I see them:

1) Yes, this forum's members are mostly men.

2) People at synth meets and modular synth shows are mostly men (sometimes accompanied by their very bored girlfriends or wives). They typically behave very differently than one might expect men to behave at other anthropocentric gatherings, such as gun shows, or monster truck rallies.

3) All men are, in my experience, essentially Beavis and Butthead. If you truly feel threatened by the utterly harmless and typical male stupidity sometimes displayed on this site, then I can only assume that you must have led a very sheltered life thus far, or that you suffer from an uncommonly high level of paranoia.

4) The standard to which you seem to want to hold the men here is simply not attainable. You are fighting a losing battle. Ignoring it is probably the best (and only realistic) option. If you avoid the forum on the basis that you might occasionally encounter something you find offensive, it is your loss. This place is a bit of a "man-cave", but it's also the best synth site on the web, by far.
Muff Wiggler
Dr. Sketch-n-Etch wrote:
That kind of totalitarianism is, to me, more offensive than any name could ever be.


i hear you for sure, but you seem to suggest allowing him his 'dirty trick'....

one can't use the fact that i'm not really a fascist to get around a ban. bans don't work that way, it's called a "ban" for a reason.
Dr. Sketch-n-Etch
Muff Wiggler wrote:
Dr. Sketch-n-Etch wrote:
That kind of totalitarianism is, to me, more offensive than any name could ever be.


i hear you for sure, but you seem to suggest allowing him his 'dirty trick'....

one can't use the fact that i'm not really a fascist to get around a ban. bans don't work that way.

We're both right, I'm afraid. I told the truth about my feelings on the matter, and you are correct in your strict interpretation of banning.
Muff Wiggler
let's agree to agree thumbs up
Joe.
Hi Muffwiggler, glad to see your posting abit after the long hiatus thumbs up

When I registered my business in Australia the name had to go through an approval process. There was a set of guidelines that outlined possible reasons for rejection, such as restricted words or Undesirable names (that are likely to cause offense).

Is there the same type of process in the US, and were there any problems when registering the Business-name for the new store?
Muff Wiggler
the state of Oregon seemed quite happy to grant us a license love
hangovercat
You're lucky you didn't die of dysentery along the way.
Muff Wiggler
lol
JohnLRice
Interesting to read a similar story and reader response discussion about a restaurant name some find offensive:
http://denver.cbslocal.com/2014/10/25/some-in-fort-collins-find-illega l-petes-name-offensive/
strettara
Dr. Sketch-n-Etch wrote:
That kind of totalitarianism is, to me, more offensive than any name could ever be.


I suggest you read some history to get a perspective on what totalitarianism actually is. However, I don't find your use of the word to stigmatize the banning of a dreadful troll offensive, but just absurd and childish, like a fourteen year old calling his parents fascists because they ground him for a week.
Joe.
The 'totalitarianism' comment was just a hyperbole, it was probably just used to elicit a response, rather than to be taken literally thumbs up

The 'Fascist parent' example might be a bit different though, youth really don't have the vocabulary to properly express themselves.
Muff Wiggler
PrimateSynthesis wrote:
Although perhaps the forum would be a more gracious host, and that problem would be solved, by simply moving the picture threads in Off-Topic to Members Only It's peanut butter jelly time!


I think that's a freakin' great suggestion and it's nice to see reasonable suggestions being made.

Done.

Thank-you!
listentoaheartbeat
ignatius wrote:
listentoaheartbeat wrote:


According to the English grammar rules I looked up, inanimate objects (like a synthesizer) are referred to as "it" (with a few traditional exceptions like ships and countries).


sorry, but that's not correct. do more research.

by not correct i mean it's incomplete. there are many different parts of america speaking their own american english with those colloquialisms again.. and not to mention that within those various regional america speak there's different ethnic backgrounds, slang etc etc.. so there's a whole mess of words up in this place so "traditional exceptions" are a load of shit. there's nothing but exceptions all day long.


Fair enoigh, but that doesn't make the use of language I described less sexist or offensive. Actually, it doesn't really matter if there are exceptions in colloquial or slang language, they are part of the same male domination scheme. The phrases "fill her up" and "patch her up" are sexist and alienating, and more can be gained from acknowledging and questioning this use of language then attempting to relativise it.
listentoaheartbeat
strettara wrote:
Dr. Sketch-n-Etch wrote:
That kind of totalitarianism is, to me, more offensive than any name could ever be.


I suggest you read some history to get a perspective on what totalitarianism actually is. However, I don't find your use of the word to stigmatize the banning of a dreadful troll offensive, but just absurd and childish, like a fourteen year old calling his parents fascists because they ground him for a week.


What's absurd and childish is how you keep stigmatizing a former forum member and calling him inappropriate names. Does it feel good to keep bashing him now that he cannot defend himself? Fucking weak.
Joe.
They way you use the phrase "questioning this use of language" seems to be synonymous with 'ascribing sexist connotations to benign statements'.

QUICK! question this use of language! :

Tobor, she is beautiful!
My goddess, she is beautiful! we're not worthy
She is beautiful to look at but functionally dod not justify the real estate or cost.
SHE'S BEAUTIFUL!
She's got a bad PULSE?
She's Alive !!
I used the base she stands on to prevent the Rubik's Cube from sliding...
Here she is:
let's hear how she sounds!
Gorgeous ain't she?

(don't forgot to add an ethnocentric filter, and completely ignore that 'inanimate objects and abstract ideas' use in English has already been explained over and over and over...)
strettara
Just being objective.
ngarjuna
listentoaheartbeat wrote:
ignatius wrote:
listentoaheartbeat wrote:


According to the English grammar rules I looked up, inanimate objects (like a synthesizer) are referred to as "it" (with a few traditional exceptions like ships and countries).


sorry, but that's not correct. do more research.

by not correct i mean it's incomplete. there are many different parts of america speaking their own american english with those colloquialisms again.. and not to mention that within those various regional america speak there's different ethnic backgrounds, slang etc etc.. so there's a whole mess of words up in this place so "traditional exceptions" are a load of shit. there's nothing but exceptions all day long.


Fair enoigh, but that doesn't make the use of language I described less sexist or offensive. Actually, it doesn't really matter if there are exceptions in colloquial or slang language, they are part of the same male domination scheme. The phrases "fill her up" and "patch her up" are sexist and alienating, and more can be gained from acknowledging and questioning this use of language then attempting to relativise it.

In fact, that's exactly what it does. What's incredible is that even after having great examples presented and a thorough explanation (of the language that isn't even your native language) you'd still rather try to win an argument on a web forum than learn something new and widen your perspective and vocabulary.

And that's precisely why some of us cry foul at describing this whole process as a 'discussion'.
listentoaheartbeat
LoFi Junglist wrote:
They way you use the phrase "questioning this use of language" seems to be synonymous with 'ascribing sexist connotations to benign statements'.


No, I don't think so. Anyways, we are going in circles. I believe that statements like "filling her up" contribute to the alienation of women in this forum. You apparently believe they are benign. There is nothing to be gained from further reinforcing our positions.
Joe.
cretaceousear wrote:
listentoaheartbeat wrote:
[One example would be the standard phrase of "filling her up [with modules]" or "patching her up [with cables]". The connotation of a modular synth being female alone is alienating and reinforces the male dominance in this culture.


Funny - I've never once seen that. I'm sure it's been written but, and I read a lot of threads, I've not seen it.


That's because you didn't do a MW search specifically for that phrase, to see if this forum was in violation of the feminist piece "Guide to Nonsexist Language", printed back in 1986, that listed the phase 'Fill her up' as 'alienating' and 'reinforcing male dominance in culture'.

What a fucking troll.
slow_riot
sduck wrote:
And it's certainly not anything we (the mods) can do anything about.


This discussion has been a clear indication of alienating behaviour on the forum, with moderators not attempting to bridge gaps between differing views, but taking a clear stance against the views of an unspoken minority, whilst verbal abuse piles up, a member is discredited, and illegal activity is dismissed as not a real threat, or that's just how it is.

Muff Wiggler wrote:

I suppose we could shut the whole thing down then? I suppose that's the point we are moving towards. I can't see how that would help. But we could chalk it up as a "win" for progress. "We did our part against the tyranny of words"


No, you are being childish. No one is asking you to take down the forum.

But, as a meeting point for industry professionals, I, and some other members (and potential members), are making a suggestion towards collective awareness that because in theory this is a gender neutral space, that words and behaviour outside of this ideal have an impact on people's personal growth. Of course, I have set myself up for attack here by calling gender neutral socialisation an ideal, but, given that the differences between human males and human females boils largely down to subtly different reproductive cells, I personally question the validity of excluding members because of this fact.
strettara
slow_riot wrote:
the differences between human males and human females boils largely down to subtly different reproductive cells


Not too subtle I hope.
listentoaheartbeat
ngarjuna wrote:
listentoaheartbeat wrote:
ignatius wrote:
listentoaheartbeat wrote:


According to the English grammar rules I looked up, inanimate objects (like a synthesizer) are referred to as "it" (with a few traditional exceptions like ships and countries).


sorry, but that's not correct. do more research.

by not correct i mean it's incomplete. there are many different parts of america speaking their own american english with those colloquialisms again.. and not to mention that within those various regional america speak there's different ethnic backgrounds, slang etc etc.. so there's a whole mess of words up in this place so "traditional exceptions" are a load of shit. there's nothing but exceptions all day long.


Fair enoigh, but that doesn't make the use of language I described less sexist or offensive. Actually, it doesn't really matter if there are exceptions in colloquial or slang language, they are part of the same male domination scheme. The phrases "fill her up" and "patch her up" are sexist and alienating, and more can be gained from acknowledging and questioning this use of language then attempting to relativise it.

In fact, that's exactly what it does. What's incredible is that even after having great examples presented and a thorough explanation (of the language that isn't even your native language) you'd still rather try to win an argument on a web forum than learn something new and widen your perspective and vocabulary.

And that's precisely why some of us cry foul at describing this whole process as a 'discussion'.


How does having a tradition or cultivating a colloquial use of gender assignments to inanimate objects make these phrases less alienating and offensive? These "thorough" explanations are completely besides the point. Which, by the way, my native speaking friends and colleagues confirm.
TheEngineer
Dr. Sketch-n-Etch wrote:
Wow, I just noticed that this thread has grown by about 20 pages in the last two days. I also noticed that the Baboon got one posting in before he was not only re-banned, but his posting was removed. That kind of totalitarianism is, to me, more offensive than any name could ever be.

Anyway, on topic: Yes, the name is mildly offensive. Chloelikescats, here are the facts as I see them:

1) Yes, this forum's members are mostly men.

2) People at synth meets and modular synth shows are mostly men (sometimes accompanied by their very bored girlfriends or wives). They typically behave very differently than one might expect men to behave at other anthropocentric gatherings, such as gun shows, or monster truck rallies.

3) All men are, in my experience, essentially Beavis and Butthead. If you truly feel threatened by the utterly harmless and typical male stupidity sometimes displayed on this site, then I can only assume that you must have led a very sheltered life thus far, or that you suffer from an uncommonly high level of paranoia.

4) The standard to which you seem to want to hold the men here is simply not attainable. You are fighting a losing battle. Ignoring it is probably the best (and only realistic) option. If you avoid the forum on the basis that you might occasionally encounter something you find offensive, it is your loss. This place is a bit of a "man-cave", but it's also the best synth site on the web, by far.


This pretty much sums it up.
ngarjuna
listentoaheartbeat wrote:
How does having a tradition or cultivating a colloquial use of gender assignments to inanimate objects make these phrases less alienating and offensive? These "thorough" explanations are completely besides the point. Which, by the way, my native speaking friends and colleagues confirm.

It doesn't (nice straw man) though the origins of those traditions combined with how they are used historically can at least determine whether such offense is reasonably warranted.

You know what's most galling about this crap? There are excellent examples from the last week of dangerous sexist speech in media. Victim blaming, victim shaming, a virtual cornucopia of sexual objectification and rape cultural celebration. To try to make this particular molehill into a mountain only further buries the real conversations that could be taking place because, by the time any of those considerable subjects get notice, the 'little boy has already cried wolf'. Instead of thinking this is a subject worthy of notice and discussion some of us will simply return to our 'real lives' thinking the people on the other side of this discussion are hysterical, irrational and bossy. It does permanent harm to the very cause you purport to be working for.
Muff Wiggler
Well said, thank-you.
listentoaheartbeat
slow_riot wrote:
sduck wrote:
And it's certainly not anything we (the mods) can do anything about.


This discussion has been a clear indication of alienating behaviour on the forum, with moderators not attempting to bridge gaps between differing views, but taking a clear stance against the views of an unspoken minority, whilst verbal abuse piles up, a member is discredited, and illegal activity is dismissed as not a real threat, or that's just how it is.

Muff Wiggler wrote:

I suppose we could shut the whole thing down then? I suppose that's the point we are moving towards. I can't see how that would help. But we could chalk it up as a "win" for progress. "We did our part against the tyranny of words"


No, you are being childish. No one is asking you to take down the forum.

But, as a meeting point for industry professionals, I, and some other members (and potential members), are making a suggestion towards collective awareness that because in theory this is a gender neutral space, that words and behaviour outside of this ideal have an impact on people's personal growth. Of course, I have set myself up for attack here by calling gender neutral socialisation an ideal, but, given that the differences between human males and human females boils largely down to subtly different reproductive cells, I personally question the validity of excluding members because of this fact.


Thanks for this, well put. I think questioning one's dealings with the gender binary is a positive process, especially if it can lead to more people feeling welcome here. It's unfortunate that any critical notion about these issues is forcefully rejected in this community, backed by the operators of the site. A missed opportunity, really.
Muff Wiggler
listentoaheartbeat wrote:
It's unfortunate that any critical notion about these issues is forcefully rejected in this community, backed by the operators of the site. A missed opportunity, really.


That's funny because I recall just hours ago implementing one of the only actual concrete requests/suggestions that's been made as a result of this whole drama here.

But hey, nebulous whinging is a thing too. Sure.
listentoaheartbeat
Muff Wiggler wrote:
listentoaheartbeat wrote:
It's unfortunate that any critical notion about these issues is forcefully rejected in this community, backed by the operators of the site. A missed opportunity, really.


That's funny because I recall just hours ago implementing one of the only actual concrete requests/suggestions that's been made as a result of this whole drama here.


Moving sexist content into the Members only section? Feels more like a cover-up. Why that shit is accepted on here at all is actually way more troubling than the language issues.
Muff Wiggler
so the argument is for censorship then? let's be clear, this is what you are saying.

who shall be the supreme arbiter of taste and morals? i assume you'll nominate yourself, clearly you've judged your own mind as more pure of values and superior in intent to many others around here. You've extended tirelessly amusing effort since your name change in hopes that all will recognize this. applause.

so take a shot at it, o better person than I, go ahead: carve out the rules. what do they look like? where shall we draw the line?
tojpeters
The line is easy. If you wouldn't want your wife or mother or children to see it don't post it.
strettara
listentoaheartbeat wrote:
Moving sexist content into the Members only section? Feels more like a cover-up. Why that shit is accepted on here at all is actually way more troubling than the language issues.


Seriously, what are you even doing on this forum?

Oh yeah, making the world a better place. Where every lip is pursed and every brow is furrowed, where humour is outlawed and women's honour is tightly guarded by men. Sounds familiar.
sduck
slow_riot wrote:
sduck wrote:
And it's certainly not anything we (the mods) can do anything about.


This discussion has been a clear indication of alienating behaviour on the forum, with moderators not attempting to bridge gaps between differing views, but taking a clear stance against the views of an unspoken minority, whilst verbal abuse piles up, a member is discredited, and illegal activity is dismissed as not a real threat, or that's just how it is.


Since I'm the whipping boy for the moment, maybe I should clarify. I probably should have added some nice, sympathetic commentary at some point, but either forgot, or rather forgot that you don't know me in real life. Plus, I'm a lousy writer - lots of brilliant things (and not-so-brilliant ones) I might have said just didn't make it through my keyboard

I totally sympathize with the feelings of the females who feel unwelcome here. I too also see the anti-female posts here, and wish they would go away. This forum does tend to be extremely male-centric, and thus tends to reflect an over-abundance of the worst traits of men. I am personally sickened by some of the extreme anti-female postings that have occurred here, some by people who have posted in this thread even. There are people here who have tainted themselves with this as far as I'm concerned - I will never do business with them, or respond to their posts because of the female-subjugating viewpoints they've expressed in the past.

I happen to work in one of the rare fields where the hiring is all done blind, and hence the female/male count is mostly even, although skewed slightly in favor of the women. You can check this out actually - look at the rosters of most american symphony orchestras, where there is a mostly uniform blind audition/hiring process, and you'll see that the numbers are almost all even. This is a very good thing, although it's a shame that we have to use a blind audition process to achieve it.

It's not like this in most of the rest of the music world - it's historically been tilted towards men, and although some of that tilt is going away, it's still there to some degree. And not a good thing in any way.

And outside of the music world - I don't live under a rock, you know. I see and live with the problems that women have had achieving parity in the world, on a daily basis.

So, while I can't speak for all the moderators, I'm pretty sure that most of them are like me - we totally get it - there's a big problem. And we would like to do something. And I apologize for somehow "not attempting to bridge gaps between differing views, but taking a clear stance against the views of an unspoken minority" - I certainly didn't mean to do this. Im not really sure what is meant by "attempting to bridge the gap" - do you mean we should be moderating this thread, like on Meet the Press or something? I doubt it.

To be clear - we can and will implement any changes we can to address the issue here. I personally don't have any great ideas that don't involve censorship. There was one idea posted so far, and it was promptly acted on.

So if there are any other constructive ideas, please, we need to hear them!
listentoaheartbeat
Muff Wiggler wrote:
so the argument is for censorship then? let's be clear, this is what you are saying.

who shall be the supreme arbiter of taste and morals? i assume you'll nominate yourself, clearly you've judged your own mind as more pure of values and superior in intent to many others around here. You've extended tirelessly amusing effort since your name change in hopes that all will recognize this. applause.

so take a shot at it, o better person than I, go ahead: carve out the rules. what do they look like? where shall we draw the line?


I was thinking along the lines of establishing a more critical climate towards these issues, instead of supporting an infrastructure in which male domination can evolve unquestioned. Not censorship.

I don't feel inclined to further contribute to any of the personal attacking, so I will just dismiss the rest of your post.
Muff Wiggler
listentoaheartbeat wrote:
I don't feel inclined to further contribute to any of the personal attacking


well there's a nice change.
slow_riot
Thanks sduck, those are the words and actions I personally have been hoping to hear.

Yes, this is not like the real world, and indeed I don't know if I would use similar criticisms with people in real life, or perhaps make greater exceptions based on personal relationships, but perhaps this neutrality is a good way to affect change.

By bridging gaps, I mean that there is a role of a moderator that is perhaps not made clear, but is implied all the same, that there is some duty towards understanding the views of different posters and attempting to influence the discussion in a way that supports the view points raised by posters. In the case of a minority group in a majority demographic environment I think this would require gentler handling and more careful intervention in the context of this role.

Thanks again for listening.
Dr. Sketch-n-Etch
strettara wrote:
listentoaheartbeat wrote:
Moving sexist content into the Members only section? Feels more like a cover-up. Why that shit is accepted on here at all is actually way more troubling than the language issues.


Seriously, what are you even doing on this forum?

Oh yeah, making the world a better place. Where every lip is pursed and every brow is furrowed, where humour is outlawed and women's honour is tightly guarded by men. Sounds familiar.

Sounds, oh, I don't know... totalitarian?
chloelikescats
Quote:
so the argument is for censorship then? let's be clear, this is what you are saying.


At no point in this discussion did listentoaheartbeat or anyone else call for censorship. Stating that gendered speech can be alienating and that there are more neutral ways in which these things can be discussed is not censorship.

The only thing that my original post actually stated was that maybe... just maybe... the name reinforces and normalizes a certain culture on the forums, and that that culture and its ensuing banter inherently excludes people who would otherwise be interested in participating. Anyone who holds this view has been ridiculed, gaslighted, and further ostracized by this thread. You say that this space is "better than most" on the internet... but if anyone disagrees with you, you either ban them or you are thoroughly condescending and dismissive (see below):

Quote:
who shall be the supreme arbiter of taste and morals? i assume you'll nominate yourself, clearly you've judged your own mind as more pure of values and superior in intent to many others around here. You've extended tirelessly amusing effort since your name change in hopes that all will recognize this. applause.

so take a shot at it, o better person than I, go ahead: carve out the rules. what do they look like? where shall we draw the line?


You don't want censorship? What are you doing here on this thread then? You're kicking the shit out of anyone who disagrees with you, attempting to silence any differing opinions. Maybe try listening when people have concerns or express ways in which they think the forum could benefit from being a little more conscientious about the way certain boy's club behaviors alienate people.

There are whole corners of the internet full of boobs of all sorts, and with the stroke of two keys you can open a new tab and see them ALL. Why do we need synthesizers AND tits here? Especially when all the tit talk makes many users feel alienated and unwelcome, and distracts from the synthesizers.

But whatever, I'm an irrational SJW feminazi with an agenda, so fuck whatever I think, right?
Muff Wiggler
um. are you reading the same thread?

the same forum even?
chloelikescats
Yes, I am. Thank you for asking.
listentoaheartbeat
strettara wrote:
listentoaheartbeat wrote:
Moving sexist content into the Members only section? Feels more like a cover-up. Why that shit is accepted on here at all is actually way more troubling than the language issues.


Seriously, what are you even doing on this forum?

Oh yeah, making the world a better place. Where every lip is pursed and every brow is furrowed, where humour is outlawed and women's honour is tightly guarded by men. Sounds familiar.


I don't think I contribute much to making the world a better place, but if you think that's what I am doing: Thanks! Luckily I cannot relate to any of the weird connotations you associate with that.
Muff Wiggler
chloelikescats wrote:
Yes, I am. Thank you for asking.


Do you know how many people have been banned here?

Do you know how many people have disagreed with me here?

Do you know the size of the delta between those two numbers?

Did you see my posts thanking people for their constructive suggestions and acting on them?

"kicking the shit out of"
"attempting to silence"
"you ban them"

I have no clue where you are getting this stuff. I'm not dismissive of you because of your gender or agenda, believe me. The problem is elsewhere.
listentoaheartbeat
Muff Wiggler wrote:
listentoaheartbeat wrote:
I don't feel inclined to further contribute to any of the personal attacking


well there's a nice change.


Feel free to join the change..
TheEngineer
listentoaheartbeat wrote:
slow_riot wrote:
sduck wrote:
And it's certainly not anything we (the mods) can do anything about.


This discussion has been a clear indication of alienating behaviour on the forum, with moderators not attempting to bridge gaps between differing views, but taking a clear stance against the views of an unspoken minority, whilst verbal abuse piles up, a member is discredited, and illegal activity is dismissed as not a real threat, or that's just how it is.

Muff Wiggler wrote:

I suppose we could shut the whole thing down then? I suppose that's the point we are moving towards. I can't see how that would help. But we could chalk it up as a "win" for progress. "We did our part against the tyranny of words"


No, you are being childish. No one is asking you to take down the forum.

But, as a meeting point for industry professionals, I, and some other members (and potential members), are making a suggestion towards collective awareness that because in theory this is a gender neutral space, that words and behaviour outside of this ideal have an impact on people's personal growth. Of course, I have set myself up for attack here by calling gender neutral socialisation an ideal, but, given that the differences between human males and human females boils largely down to subtly different reproductive cells, I personally question the validity of excluding members because of this fact.


Thanks for this, well put. I think questioning one's dealings with the gender binary is a positive process, especially if it can lead to more people feeling welcome here. It's unfortunate that any critical notion about these issues is forcefully rejected in this community, backed by the operators of the site. A missed opportunity, really.


I find it funny that some see it as a missed opportunity rather than the niche of what has helped make the community and site successful. Spreading yourself thin catering to every audience will lead to failure in just about any industry.
strettara
Dr. Sketch-n-Etch wrote:
strettara wrote:
listentoaheartbeat wrote:
Moving sexist content into the Members only section? Feels more like a cover-up. Why that shit is accepted on here at all is actually way more troubling than the language issues.


Seriously, what are you even doing on this forum?

Oh yeah, making the world a better place. Where every lip is pursed and every brow is furrowed, where humour is outlawed and women's honour is tightly guarded by men. Sounds familiar.

Sounds, oh, I don't know... totalitarian?


Good one lol
roglok
i've been hanging out almost exclusively in the DIY subforum and i've experienced it as one of the most welcoming, inclusive, tolerant and helpful places on the web. reading some of those sexist posts makes me sad and so does the fact that apparently some (or even most?) women don't feel welcome here. if that's the case, we should work on fixing that.

but overall i object to the generalisation that has been going on in this thread. if this forum were the hostile, elitist, chauvinist clusterfuck that it's been claimed to be, i certainly wouldn't hang out here.

since there's also been a bit of intellectual bashing going on in this thread and because I empathise with the burden of managing this forum, I'll just leave this quote from a nice little essay by Jacques Derrida here hihi

Quote:
"To take up the figure of the door, for there to be hospitality, there must be a door. But if there is a door, there is no longer hospitality. There is no hospitable house. There is no house without doors and windows. But as soon as there are a door and windows, it means that someone has the key to them and consequently controls the conditions of hospitality. There must be a threshold. But if there is a threshold, there is no longer hospitality."
strettara
What Derrida probably never considered (at least in that quote) is that someone might leave the door open for everyone to come in and enjoy themselves. And that windows offer a view and fresh air.

I think the quote says more about its author than about anything else.
Dr. Sketch-n-Etch
strettara wrote:
What Derrida probably never considered (at least in that quote) is that someone might leave the door open for everyone to come in and enjoy themselves. And that windows offer a view and fresh air.

I think the quote says more about its author than about anything else.

Uh oh, I just completely agreed with Strettara. Maybe I should go to the doctor.

Concerning chloelikescats's comments and concerns, I am somewhat sympathetic. However, I believe that a more constructive approach would be to call out the truly offensive behaviour as one finds it, and chalk the rest up to dumb guys being dumb guys and just let it go.

My younger daughter is taking auto shop -- she didn't want to be ignorant of the workings of an automobile, and she actually wants to fix up my old 1960 Ranchero. Yes, it's a bit of a testosterone factory up in there, but she assumed that going in. Obviously, if she truly felt threatened, she would probably discuss it with the teacher. Otherwise, I guess she just sees it as a learning experience -- a bit of real-life anthropology.

I suppose I would be a little less skeptical if chloellkescats had chalked up more than a dozen posts before delving headfirst into the social politics of Muffs.
Dr. Sketch-n-Etch
By the way, is it just me, or has the Edit button completely disappeared? What's up with that?
Muff Wiggler
no-one gets editing in this subforum. It's caused too many problems in the past.

also: crazy days indeed. I find myself in full agreement with the esteemed Dr. Sketch-n-Etch. Maybe it's the weather?
Dave Kendall
Posting here reluctantly, but I cannot agree with Listen to a heartbeat's assertion that referring to a piece of synth equipment as "her" is demeaning to women. No disrespect to LTAHB, but that is my reading of what was written.

I've given names to two of my keyboards. Kurt the Kurzweil, and Harriet the Hammond. They are two of the best things in my life. But if I write that I will be giving Harriet an oiling, I'm demeaning women? How about if I turn Kurt on? Context is all. It says a lot about people who may be offended by those phrases in or out of context, and absolutely nothing about the writer.
How about love, respect and pleasure in having these things as part of your life, so that you refer to them in familiar, human terms?

What I find most chilling is the implication that referring to synths as "her" implies control or domination. "Fill her up" has been suggested as offensive. Is "Fill 'im up" or "Fill that Bad boy up" somehow different?

As for racks, "rack" is an technical term that's in common usage, er, that's it. Many words have other meanings - to ignore context is disingenuous, and doesn't further dialogue..

Maybe I'm naive or simple, but I reckon this stuff can be over-thought - look for offense, and you'll find it.

As someone pointed out, the Liz Larsen thread was beautiful. I wouldn't be here if I didn't think that was the norm for wigglers.

D.
roglok
strettara wrote:
What Derrida probably never considered (at least in that quote) is that someone might leave the door open for everyone to come in and enjoy themselves. And that windows offer a view and fresh air.

I think the quote says more about its author than about anything else.


hehe, of course it's not the full text - it continues like so:

Quote:
In visitation there is no door. Anyone can come at any time and can come in without needing a key for the door. There are no customs checks with a visitation. But there are customs and police checks with an invitation. Hospitality thus becomes the threshold or the door.


if i got it right, what chloelikescats is asking for is an invitation, not a right to visit.
Dr. Sketch-n-Etch
Muff Wiggler wrote:
no-one gets editing in this subforum. It's caused too many problems in the past.

also: crazy days indeed. I find myself in full agreement with the esteemed Dr. Sketch-n-Etch. Maybe it's the weather?

Well, I'm afraid not. We're in total disagreement concerning the Edit button. It doesn't cause problems. It just seems like you giving in to your need to exert control.

(There: is all right with the world again?)
Muff Wiggler
lol applause
daverj
re: banning

There are close to 16,000 registered members in this forum. From what I have seen the number banned could be counted on the fingers of one hand, or at most both hands. I've never seen anybody banned for disagreeing with Muff/Mike. He gets insulted, abused, disagreed with, his actions and choices questioned. None of those will get you banned.

It takes a lot to be banned. The few people that have ever been banned here systematically abused, insulted, or cheated other members. Not once, but repeatedly.
JohnLRice
listentoaheartbeat wrote:
I believe that statements like "filling her up" contribute to the alienation of women in this forum.
And why is that exactly? "filling her up" doesn't automatically indicate inseminated against one's will. meh seriously, i just don't get it Can't a "her" also be "filled" with food and drink, respect and pride, contentment, joy, hope and love?

Here is an interesting article and discussion on why ships are called "she/her":
http://www.wisegeek.org/why-are-boats-called-she.htm
Dr. Sketch-n-Etch
daverj wrote:
re: banning

There are close to 16,000 registered members in this forum. From what I have seen the number banned could be counted on the fingers of one hand, or at most both hands. I've never seen anybody banned for disagreeing with Muff/Mike. He gets insulted, abused, disagreed with, his actions and choices questioned. None of those will get you banned.

It takes a lot to be banned. The few people that have ever been banned here systematically abused, insulted, or cheated other members. Not once, but repeatedly.

Well, that's not strictly true. One fellow was banned in mid-2010 because he had the audacity to criticize one of the famous DIY gurus in fairly forward terms. His avatar was 2012. Check it out.
Muff Wiggler
There's much more to that case than what's shown in his posts. There was a lot going on behind these scenes contributing to his ban. His behaviour most certainly fit into the definition Dave provided.

Just as a brief addendum to daverj's kind post: indeed it's one hand. You can count them on one hand.
Dr. Sketch-n-Etch
Well, I can't find the offending posts anymore, so whatever. I remember that case very clearly, because it was a hot topic of discussion when I went to Paris that spring and visited another DIY guru. We agreed that 2012 had been pretty douchey, but that banning was a bit much (and there was some just cause in his comments, as I recall).

The sad part is that 2012 makes absolutely wonderful DIY modules.
daverj
LoFi Junglist wrote:
cretaceousear wrote:
listentoaheartbeat wrote:
[One example would be the standard phrase of "filling her up [with modules]" or "patching her up [with cables]". The connotation of a modular synth being female alone is alienating and reinforces the male dominance in this culture.


Funny - I've never once seen that. I'm sure it's been written but, and I read a lot of threads, I've not seen it.


That's because you didn't do a MW search specifically for that phrase, to see if this forum was in violation of the feminist piece "Guide to Nonsexist Language", printed back in 1986, that listed the phase 'Fill her up' as 'alienating' and 'reinforcing male dominance in culture'.

What a fucking troll.


The MW search doesn't search phrases. The best it can do is search for posts/threads that contain all of those words, in any order or context. But it also doesn't search for words with 3 letters or less. So do a search on "fill her up" and the results are only those that contain the word "fill". In fact if you search just the word "her" you get zero results.

Google can search on phrases. Do a site specific search for that phrase there and you get 9 results out of the 2 million plus posts. Two of those are in this thread, two others are duplicates. That leaves 6 times it's ever been said.

But looking at those posts I still don't see them as intentionally sexist or dominating. The context appears to be endearing.

Have you ever pulled a car into a gas station with an attendant that pumps the gas for you? Not so common these days, but they're still out there. What do you say when you want a full tank of gas? Some might say "fill it up" while most probably still say "fill her up please". Is that an overt display of sexism? Should gas stations have warnings signs asking people not to say "her" when referring to their vehicles?

I think Chloe and a few others in this thread have made some good points about the way some posts might be interpreted and seem insulting or exclusionary to some people. I feel they have also hurt their cause by exaggerating the frequency of such posts or behavior, or assuming intention. And claiming that the whole forum has a certain attitude because of the posts by a tiny fraction of the people posting. A few examples out of millions of posts doesn't show pervasiveness.

People can examine almost any section of text and read things into it that weren't intended by the people writing it. "fill her up" is an example. I doubt that any of the people that wrote those intended them to be interpreted as a statement of male domination. They had empty spaces in their cases and planed to put new modules in them.

People on forums do not sit back and compose their messages ahead of time, thinking through all the implications of the combinations of words in them. They usually are typing as they are thinking, just like a normal conversation. That often results in wordings that could have been phrased in a better way, less open to misinterpretation. That's the nature of forums.

You can legislate actions but not thought. You can tell somebody not to write something that can be interpreted as sexist, but that doesn't stop them from being sexist (assuming they were in the first place). The way you change thought is not restricting behavior, or demanding them to change. It's by setting an example, or explaining other points of view in a way they might understand and think about it. It's a very gradual process.
daverj
Dr. Sketch-n-Etch wrote:
daverj wrote:
re: banning

There are close to 16,000 registered members in this forum. From what I have seen the number banned could be counted on the fingers of one hand, or at most both hands. I've never seen anybody banned for disagreeing with Muff/Mike. He gets insulted, abused, disagreed with, his actions and choices questioned. None of those will get you banned.

It takes a lot to be banned. The few people that have ever been banned here systematically abused, insulted, or cheated other members. Not once, but repeatedly.

Well, that's not strictly true. One fellow was banned in mid-2010 because he had the audacity to criticize one of the famous DIY gurus in fairly forward terms. His avatar was 2012. Check it out.


I remember 2012. He was the first person I used the "ignore" button on. (and only one of two that I ever used it on) His posts seemed filled with hatred towards one member in particular, which seemed to have a history pre-dating this forum by a number of years. And I don't mean disagreement with, or differing opinions. I mean hatred. He was also pretty nasty to a number of other people here.
PrimateSynthesis
listentoaheartbeat wrote:
The synth lingo in this forum is deeply interwoven with the objectivation of women. One example would be the standard phrase of "filling her up [with modules]" or "patching her up [with cables]". The connotation of a modular synth (which you own, control, and use) being female alone is alienating and reinforces the male dominance in this culture.


Common sense should tell you that personal pronouns for special objects are terms of endearment. Not that there isn't a sexual component in usage, as those who are attracted to men are more likely to choose male pronouns. Although in practice in the U.S.A., gendered pronouns given to racing vehicles are generally feminine even by heterosexual female and gay male racers. Regardless, it's the personification of objects, not the objectification of people.
PrimateSynthesis
Muff Wiggler wrote:
PrimateSynthesis wrote:
Although perhaps the forum would be a more gracious host, and that problem would be solved, by simply moving the picture threads in Off-Topic to Members Only It's peanut butter jelly time!


I think that's a freakin' great suggestion and it's nice to see reasonable suggestions being made.

Done.

Thank-you!


ignatius
PrimateSynthesis wrote:




reposted for awesome gifness

regarding getting banned.. there is _always_ stuff going on behind the scenes.. i'm always amazed at the PMs and email chains that happen and the demands and accusations that come into it. it's bewildering to me honestly.
soundwave106
roglok wrote:
i've been hanging out almost exclusively in the DIY subforum and i've experienced it as one of the most welcoming, inclusive, tolerant and helpful places on the web. reading some of those sexist posts makes me sad and so does the fact that apparently some (or even most?) women don't feel welcome here. if that's the case, we should work on fixing that.


Generally speaking, the current genres that may feature modular (IDM, experimental, noise, etc.) and may likewise attract a musician to become interested in such, also skew very male.

It is more difficult to answer the "whys" of this question IMHO. I don't think it's possible to find many (any?) elements of crass sexism or crude humor in say Autechre or Aphex Twin or hell the entirety of Warp Records, yet the male fanbase bias is pretty clear. Some music genres have some very bad structural sexism that contributes to the lack of female participation, but I never got the idea that these genres were among them.

(Though, I actually cannot think of a female artist that got the "IDM" moniker period, so not really knowing this genre well, maybe there's a bigger structural problem than I realize? I can think of female electronic experimental artists as well as female "indie" artists that get pretty deep into electronics... not IDM though... hmm...)

The bias skews both ways; in another thread, I gave an example of Etsy, which is very female dominated. I don't think there's any institutional sexism at Etsy either that would make men feel unwelcome. Yet we have societal roles that say boys get these toys and do these things and girls get those toys and do these things and "that's the way it is". Sometimes with reason, often with no reason.

For this reason, I think that there will be zero change in the sex ratio on this site if you got rid of all the naughty posts and innuendo that people are complaining about. (Which honestly is not terribly high here.)
JohnLRice
daverj wrote:
LoFi Junglist wrote:
cretaceousear wrote:
listentoaheartbeat wrote:
[One example would be the standard phrase of "filling her up [with modules]" or "patching her up [with cables]". The connotation of a modular synth being female alone is alienating and reinforces the male dominance in this culture.


Funny - I've never once seen that. I'm sure it's been written but, and I read a lot of threads, I've not seen it.


That's because you didn't do a MW search specifically for that phrase, to see if this forum was in violation of the feminist piece "Guide to Nonsexist Language", printed back in 1986, that listed the phase 'Fill her up' as 'alienating' and 'reinforcing male dominance in culture'.

What a fucking troll.


The MW search doesn't search phrases. The best it can do is search for posts/threads that contain all of those words, in any order or context. But it also doesn't search for words with 3 letters or less. So do a search on "fill her up" and the results are only those that contain the word "fill". In fact if you search just the word "her" you get zero results.

Google can search on phrases. Do a site specific search for that phrase there and you get 9 results out of the 2 million plus posts. Two of those are in this thread, two others are duplicates. That leaves 6 times it's ever been said.

But looking at those posts I still don't see them as intentionally sexist or dominating. The context appears to be endearing.

Have you ever pulled a car into a gas station with an attendant that pumps the gas for you? Not so common these days, but they're still out there. What do you say when you want a full tank of gas? Some might say "fill it up" while most probably still say "fill her up please". Is that an overt display of sexism? Should gas stations have warnings signs asking people not to say "her" when referring to their vehicles?

I think Chloe and a few others in this thread have made some good points about the way some posts might be interpreted and seem insulting or exclusionary to some people. I feel they have also hurt their cause by exaggerating the frequency of such posts or behavior, or assuming intention. And claiming that the whole forum has a certain attitude because of the posts by a tiny fraction of the people posting. A few examples out of millions of posts doesn't show pervasiveness.

People can examine almost any section of text and read things into it that weren't intended by the people writing it. "fill her up" is an example. I doubt that any of the people that wrote those intended them to be interpreted as a statement of male domination. They had empty spaces in their cases and planed to put new modules in them.

People on forums do not sit back and compose their messages ahead of time, thinking through all the implications of the combinations of words in them. They usually are typing as they are thinking, just like a normal conversation. That often results in wordings that could have been phrased in a better way, less open to misinterpretation. That's the nature of forums.

You can legislate actions but not thought. You can tell somebody not to write something that can be interpreted as sexist, but that doesn't stop them from being sexist (assuming they were in the first place). The way you change thought is not restricting behavior, or demanding them to change. It's by setting an example, or explaining other points of view in a way they might understand and think about it. It's a very gradual process.
Well said!
ym2612
soundwave106 wrote:
(Though, I actually cannot think of a female artist that got the "IDM" moniker period, so not really knowing this genre well, maybe there's a bigger structural problem than I realize? I can think of female electronic experimental artists as well as female "indie" artists that get pretty deep into electronics... not IDM though... hmm...)


Off the top of my head, Mira Calix, Holly Herndon, Laurel Halo? I don't find the IDM label very helpful, but there is a good number of women in experimental electronic music, moreso than in more mainstream dance music, I think. There have been women in key places in electronic music since long before the term became synonymous with dance music, so it makes me sad that it seemingly became so male-skewed.

And speaking to the wider topic, there's no reason we need to perpetuate those norms just because that's the way things are, and no reason we need to act like we're in an auto body shop.
TheBradster
ym2612 wrote:
...no reason we need to act like we're in an auto body shop.

You're perpetuating a so-called "norm" right there. The last auto body shop I was in was run by a guy who is a published poet. No Pirelli calendars, no naughty talk, run by sensitive, intelligent people. Not meaning to pick on you, but you did mention these "norms" that we are all supposed to be so aware of.

Generally speaking, generalizations are generally general. Dead Banana
ym2612
TheBradster wrote:
You're perpetuating a so-called "norm" right there. The last auto body shop I was in was run by a guy who is a published poet. No Pirelli calendars, no naughty talk, run by sensitive, intelligent people. Not meaning to pick on you, but you did mention these "norms" that we are all supposed to be so aware of.

Generally speaking, generalizations are generally general. Dead Banana


Good for him! I'm sure there are also a few locker rooms and pubs out there where conversation is free of crass jokes about women, homosexuals, and brown people.
TheBradster
…and at least 1 modular synth forum. It's not perfect, there are those here who behave like they haven't been properly socialized, but in my experience they are are a minority. I have not experienced ANY racism or homophobia here, and pretty much any abusive language towards women is immediately checked by the mods or other wigglers. YMMV.

And just for the record, I have been in plenty of pubs and locker rooms where people behave civilly.
abstraktor
JohnLRice wrote:
abstraktor wrote:
You are making others conform to your idea of 'freedom' and open-ness - to retain the right to post and enjoy offensive sexist material on this forum.
And how am I "making" anyone do anything? I'm all for leaving things the way they are. You and a few others are trying to make everyone else change! meh

Quote:
You'll never understand that with freedom comes responsibility
A dramatic statement, did you pick that up from you're favorite soap opera? lol Just how do you know what I understand now and what understanding I'll gain in the future? Are you a mind reader, omnipotent being or maybe a time traveler? meh

Quote:
- this is a public forum
it is? I thought it was a privately owned forum.


I can't be bothered quoting a quote so:

Leaving things the way they are will alienate and offend present and potential members to indulge a sexist minority and apologists like yourself - that's why this discussion is going on. For all your disingenuous comments you don't seem to grasp this (?) or do grasp it and are happy to keep your boys club going. 'Making everyone else change' is total hyperbole - it's not asking to change anyone, it's asking to people to accept a policy which would only impact on the idiots who post sexist crap. Of course that's what I meant when I turned your own argument about 'go and start your own forum' on yourself. You just insulted me but actually had no response.

Curtailing 'freedom' is exactly the issue which you don't want to happen, but this freedom is being abused at the expense of those who find the sexist posts and attitudes of some members objectionable. Therefore, if some members can't be trusted to post responsibly then policy would have to change (as in the no religion, no politics rules).

It is a public forum - as in most content is viewable by the public. You knew that's what I meant.

I fully expect you to reply to this with your usual insults - I haven't attacked you personally, yet you feel the need to attack me. You're still not addressing the issues raised by chloelikescats and others.
And to answer one of your earlier attempts at a personal insult and re-enforce my point: I tutor at a College - I teach electronic music as part of an audio engineering and production course. MW is a comprehensive knowledge resource which many students would find useful, however I do not feel comfortable with recommending it to learners, particularly female ones - because of the issues raised in this thread.
I honestly can't understand why you wish to maintain a status quo which limits the chance to broaden the base of electronic music and modular synths, and all the other great stuff here. Is it fear of change or just sheer bloody-mindedness?
sduck
abstraktor wrote:
asking to people to accept a policy which would only impact on the idiots who post sexist crap.


Hmmm. What is this "policy" you have in mind? This is the first I've heard of it; please present it. If you've been keeping up with the thread since your last post, you'll see that we're eagerly seeking suggestions as to how to improve things here. Positive contributions instead of personal attacks please!
soundwave106
ym2612 wrote:
Off the top of my head, Mira Calix, Holly Herndon, Laurel Halo? I don't find the IDM label very helpful, but there is a good number of women in experimental electronic music, moreso than in more mainstream dance music, I think. There have been women in key places in electronic music since long before the term became synonymous with dance music, so it makes me sad that it seemingly became so male-skewed.


Certain quarters of mainstream dance music definitely has (my opinion) that sort of structural stigmatic sexist aspect that would make it harder for any women to advance in the music career. The "IDM label" isn't helpful, I know, but I was hoping that experimental dance wasn't suffering from the same problems as much. I'm well aware that plenty of women have contributed to both general electronic music as well as some experimental quarters. I am not as familiar with experimental dance , so the names are helpful.

ym2612 wrote:
And speaking to the wider topic, there's no reason we need to perpetuate those norms just because that's the way things are, and no reason we need to act like we're in an auto body shop.


I'm okay with advocacy of general civility. I guess I'm not 100% convinced that it isn't the case here in general.

I'm also not convinced that the occasional descent into crudeness seen on this forum automatically equals a universal turn-off for women. Actually, I know some women who don't mind crude humor at all, or even use crude humor themselves! I played in a punk band at one time; there are some female punk bands, including some quite feminist ones, that would never pass any "no crude humor" test one could formulate. You can even find some examples in the mainstream (probably the most noteworthy is Sarah Silverman).

To me, this almost perpetuating a societal female stereotype in a way, that little girls aren't supposed to enjoy or make off color jokes. As mentioned in another thread, the discussion so far is uncannily close to religious oriented thought police, who see some sort of humor that makes them uncomfortable, and attack it with a framework they know. What is God and the degeneracy of morality to the right wing is offensive degenerate sexism to this part of the left.

There is such a thing as a "bro culture" where the humor clearly is both crude and degrading. I don't see that here.
Matos
Using the term idiots promotes negativity and only serves to alienate and offend present and potential members to indulge a self righteous minority. That's without diving into the harm that it does to those who suffer from cognitive issues. This is a blatantly harmful and derigitory tone, one without merit or room for misinterpretation. Unlike personification of objects that you hold dear and true, which for many is a sign of love and affection, resorting to such language is at its core an act of violence. It is used solely to injure and demean another human.
To fight generalities by painting another group with that same wide brush only does a great disservice to those who have been truely affected by these issues. There is such horror in this world. True horror and injustice. Hate and violence beyond comprehension. Yet from such atrocities such great beauty and bliss has grown. "Protecting" people from imagined harm only harms them. It separates them, weakens them, and fosters a culture of victims. Teach people to find the good in others, especially those who they diagree with. Teach them to embrace their humanity, their flaws, their fragility and their strength. Respond to insult with understanding. Respond to misunderstanding with clarity and compassion. You will find what you are looking for. If you seek to find monsters, you will find the greatest one within. Why is it that teachers always have the most to learn?
Sinamsis
I'm fairly new to the forum but I've been following it for the past few years. I feel the need to chime in here...

First of all I hate the name Muff Wiggler. I find it a little douchey (no offense Mike, you're awesome). I refuse to use the word wiggle as a synonym for playing music or jamming or whatever. In fact at first I didn't even take this forum seriously because of the name. But I do not find it that offensive or sexist. Further, I think the real question is why the fuck someone would name a fuzz pedal the Big Muff (Mike Matthews). Awesome pedal, stupid name.

But to take it to the level of saying that there is a underlying "rape culture" or all of the other things that have been said is insane (I'd like to mention here that some of these comments have been posted by people who I have the utmost respect for, based on their previous posts and contributions). Dont get me wrong, I'm not giving Bill Cosby a standing ovation. But it's just so extreme. Sure there are plenty of times where there is off colored humor, sophomoric comments, even crass and juvenile jokes. But if you can't be yourself on this forum, then where the fuck can you? If you read into every comment posted you can find something wrong with it. But is that really the writer's intent or are you projecting some non existant meaning on to it? Not to mention, as someone stated above, to treat women with kid gloves like they're made of porcelain is the true sexism. Most of the women I know say shit that makes me blush, and that takes a lot.

I think there is a fine line that is being treaded here. Sure we all should respect one another. But you come across as a bit of a puritan when you tell people that sexual jokes are inappropriate and not welcome. It's not rape, it's a fucking joke. Laugh. It's funny. We are all (or mostly all) sexual beings. We like to fuck. That's what perpetuates the species. Sex is a beautiful thing. Fuck anyone who tries to shame that. Making a sexual joke is not as appalling as some try to make it seem.

It just seems very naive to view things in such a black and white manner. We're all humans. There is an abundance of evil inside us, just like there is good. You just have to accept that. So if someone says something you find offensive you can immediately discount them as a hate monger or a rapist. You should probably give them the benefit of the doubt and say, hmmmm, he just said something stupid. Now if there is a recurring pattern, sure, that person is a dick. But for the most part, even the dicks have family who love them and think they're alright.

And Dr. Etch N Sketch, a lot of the shit you post I find pretty aggressive/abrasive (you're a genius, don't get me wrong), but I find myself agreeing with pretty much everything you said here.

In closing, the fact that so many people have so much time to talk at such length about this topic shows a few things. First of all, the fact that we have these luxuries tells me that we are all pretty lucky. Secondly, it demonstrates that most people here are thoughtful and want to do good/treat others well. It shows we are all opinionated motherfuckers and fuck anyone who says otherwise. Lastly, I think it shows we like to talk to hear ourselves speak sometimes.
Sinamsis
Also:
Dr. Sketch-n-Etch
Sinamsis wrote:
And Dr. Etch N Sketch, a lot of the shit you post I find pretty aggressive/abrasive (you're a genius, don't get me wrong), but I find myself agreeing with pretty much everything you said here.

Excellent! My nefarious plan is working perfectly.
strettara
Sinamsis wrote:
In closing, the fact that so many people have so much time to talk at such length about this topic shows a few things. First of all, the fact that we have these luxuries tells me that we are all pretty lucky. Secondly, it demonstrates that most people here are thoughtful and want to do good/treat others well. It shows we are all opinionated motherfuckers and fuck anyone who says otherwise. Lastly, I think it shows we like to talk to hear ourselves speak sometimes.


Sure enough n yes I do.
JohnLRice
Quote:
Soapbox

meh

I give up. I yeild. I am in the wrong. I apologize. I beg for your forgiveness. I respect you. I love you . . . in a purely platonic way . . . I wouldn't want you to think I was coming on to you! razz

Carry on with the symphamasizing. Thank you drive through. Driving
Joe.
daverj wrote:
LoFi Junglist wrote:
cretaceousear wrote:
listentoaheartbeat wrote:
[One example would be the standard phrase of "filling her up [with modules]" or "patching her up [with cables]". The connotation of a modular synth being female alone is alienating and reinforces the male dominance in this culture.

Funny - I've never once seen that. I'm sure it's been written but, and I read a lot of threads, I've not seen it.

That's because you didn't do a MW search specifically for that phrase, to see if this forum was in violation of the feminist piece "Guide to Nonsexist Language", printed back in 1986, that listed the phase 'Fill her up' as 'alienating' and 'reinforcing male dominance in culture'.
What a fucking troll.

The MW search doesn't search phrases. The best it can do is search for posts/threads that contain all of those words, in any order or context. But it also doesn't search for words with 3 letters or less. So do a search on "fill her up" and the results are only those that contain the word "fill". In fact if you search just the word "her" you get zero results.

Yes, anyone who's ever used the MW search engine knows that, obviously Google was used.

I stand by my comments, and stand by my assertion that jnlkrt/listentoaheartbeat is nothing but a troll, a dissident, and antagonist.

This thread has clearly been driven offtopic, for the sole purpose of attacking Mike (notice all the references to "Admin supported sexism"?) when , as other people have pointed out, there are some real issues feminists could be focusing on (rather than the stale, outdated-feminist argument he plagiarized from 1986 and tried to shoe-horn into this thread)

When jnlkrt first ragequit over Mike opening the MW store he made it quite clear that he did not like how this community was run. When his mate Baboon was banned he again made it quite clear that mike should quit.
Of course there is never suggestions given to how the forum can improve, just criticism using every fallacy possible, which always lead back to criticizing admin.

I absolutely hate that my pessimistic prediction from earlier this year came true, there's no joy in saying "I told you so".
Quote:
Spite is a strong emotion, we'll have to hear from him for a long time unfortunately, I suspect in any/every thread where Mike can be criticized for something


I think it's unfair that younger members constantly get baited by this poster, being unaware of what his actual agenda is, when he's clearly stated it a number of times: The forum should not be under mike's control. It's clear now he'll jump on any bandwagon in order to further the fight.
sduck
Let's try to lighten up on the personal attacks, okay?
dubonaire
I wholeheartedly agree with listentoaheatbeat's position.

Resorting to arguments about historical linguistics is a plea to authority. It makes no difference if the result is someone is offended. (When I first found this forum I actually presumed muff meant something different in the US.)

If you are in a social setting and you know that something you say might offend someone you avoid saying it, don't you? At least you hold back until there is some mutual trust established. Maybe you don't. Maybe that's why you find it hard to make new friends.

It really doesn't matter if an idiom that offends people has a legitimate historical basis. Show some compassion and consideration. If women feel intimidated, then they feel intimidated, whether you think they are justified or not.

Modify your behaviour rather than defending your linguistically justified right to use sexist terminology. It's like the ludicrous second amendment argument. Give some ground. Put other people first. There are probably people doing that for you all the time and you don;t even realise it. Make an effort to make the site more inclusive. You will probably like it more.
strettara
So I just thought it'd be interesting to cite the five threads in which "fill her up" and "patch her up" are used, according to google:

Fill her up:

https://www.muffwiggler.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=210828&sid=b5629ae1a 57153a4812a87f8a25316c2

https://www.muffwiggler.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=441416&sid=3f644c98e 8925dbb154f90ec3ffbaf64

Patch her up:

https://www.muffwiggler.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=70139&start=0&sid=ec fbbd8c43fc020121f36e3d0f065a7f

https://www.muffwiggler.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=1470812

https://www.muffwiggler.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2393

Now you know.
Joe.
sduck wrote:
Let's try to lighten up on the personal attacks, okay?

There's a saying in my culture, 'call a spade a spade'. It doesn't condone personal attacks, or vicitimisation, but it does encourage us to highlight issues that are a problem rather than to avoid them in order to to feign tolerance.
My post was as concise as posible, and I hope its made a lot more people aware of what's been going on in the last 10 pages of this thread.

The personal attacks on mike need to stop, whether they're overt or 'cleverly' concealed in legitimate threads.
listentoaheartbeat
LoFi Junglist wrote:
What a fucking troll.


LoFi Junglist wrote:
jnlkrt/listentoaheartbeat is nothing but a troll, a dissident, and antagonist.


I am sorry I evoke so much hatred in you.

As for the rest of your unjust tirade, you are completely misinterpreting my actions. If I didn't care for this online community, I wouldn't spend time and energy caring about these matters, sharing my thoughts, engaging in discussions.

For me, being part of a community also means to cultivate and push a critical discourse, to question the established stuctures and be part of a constant reconfiguration.
dubonaire
strettara wrote:
So I just thought it'd be interesting to cite the five threads in which "fill her up" and "patch her up" are used, according to google:

Now you know.


That's besides the point. For example there are avatars on this site which border on NSFW. I often read posts that make me feel embarrassed to be a member of this site. It's an example of the problem. Not the problem.
ngarjuna
dubonaire wrote:
I wholeheartedly agree with listentoaheatbeat's position.

Resorting to arguments about historical linguistics is a plea to authority. It makes no difference if the result is someone is offended. (When I first found this forum I actually presumed muff meant something different in the US.)

If you are in a social setting and you know that something you say might offend someone you avoid saying it, don't you? At least you hold back until there is some mutual trust established. Maybe you don't. Maybe that's why you find it hard to make new friends.

It really doesn't matter if an idiom that offends people has a legitimate historical basis. Show some compassion and consideration. If women feel intimidated, then they feel intimidated, whether you think they are justified or not.

Modify your behaviour rather than defending your linguistically justified right to use sexist terminology. It's like the ludicrous second amendment argument. Give some ground. Put other people first. There are probably people doing that for you all the time and you don;t even realise it. Make an effort to make the site more inclusive. You will probably like it more.

What you don't know about me is that I find gender neutral discussion to be extremely offensive. I come from a background which depends on linguistic structures which do not feature a neutral tense and I find that when people use words like "it" and "that" it dehumanizes me and makes me feel objectified, like an inanimate object. Only a horribly rude, inconsiderate person would use gender neutral pronouns. And the implication of inhumanity cheapens every life on the planet. Etc.

So…obviously you care enough about inclusion and compromise that you're going to accede to my wishes, right? Because what makes me feel comfortable and included is surely as important as what makes any other vocal minority feel comfortable and included, right?

Obviously we can't accede to everyone's wishes; it's actually impossible as many of us have wishes which are mutually exclusive to the wishes of others. In a nutshell: why are your political beliefs about proper speech more important than mine? I believe it's offensive to accuse people using simple gender personification as sexist but you don't see starting a campaign to stop you from saying it; and yet it makes me uncomfortable and is directly at odds with my inclusion on this forum. Your suggestion that I'm somehow a bad person for thinking your read of a common language technique is incorrect is no less problematic than the very subject that started this discussion.
dubonaire
LoFi Junglist wrote:
My post was as concise as posible, and I hope its made a lot more people aware of what's been going on in the last 10 pages of this thread.


I think you are being a tad paranoid there. I don't think he has some kind of covert agenda.
strettara
Oh it's beside the point. So the very examples that listentoaheartbeat has used throughout this thread, repeatedly and passionately, to highlight the rampant sexism in this forum, turn out to be beside the point. Silly me!

I'm sorry, but this simply demonstrates that this is a completely contentious and specious polemic. Game over.
listentoaheartbeat
strettara wrote:
So I just thought it'd be interesting to cite the five threads in which "fill her up" and "patch her up" are used, according to google:
[...]
Now you know.


What do we know now? That you have a tendency to bend and manipulate the positions of others in a condescending manner?

First, your list is incomplete. I guess you were only searching for the exact phrases, not any common alterations of them (though even searching for the exact phrases I get more results than you listed).

Secondly, please remember that I solely used this as an example:

listentoaheartbeat wrote:
The synth lingo in this forum is deeply interwoven with the objectivation of women. One example would be the standard phrase of "filling her up [with modules]" or "patching her up [with cables]".
dubonaire
ngarjuna wrote:
dubonaire wrote:
I wholeheartedly agree with listentoaheatbeat's position.

Resorting to arguments about historical linguistics is a plea to authority. It makes no difference if the result is someone is offended. (When I first found this forum I actually presumed muff meant something different in the US.)

If you are in a social setting and you know that something you say might offend someone you avoid saying it, don't you? At least you hold back until there is some mutual trust established. Maybe you don't. Maybe that's why you find it hard to make new friends.

It really doesn't matter if an idiom that offends people has a legitimate historical basis. Show some compassion and consideration. If women feel intimidated, then they feel intimidated, whether you think they are justified or not.

Modify your behaviour rather than defending your linguistically justified right to use sexist terminology. It's like the ludicrous second amendment argument. Give some ground. Put other people first. There are probably people doing that for you all the time and you don;t even realise it. Make an effort to make the site more inclusive. You will probably like it more.

What you don't know about me is that I find gender neutral discussion to be extremely offensive. I come from a background which depends on linguistic structures which do not feature a neutral tense and I find that when people use words like "it" and "that" it dehumanizes me and makes me feel objectified, like an inanimate object. Only a horribly rude, inconsiderate person would use gender neutral pronouns. And the implication of inhumanity cheapens every life on the planet. Etc.

So…obviously you care enough about inclusion and compromise that you're going to accede to my wishes, right? Because what makes me feel comfortable and included is surely as important as what makes any other vocal minority feel comfortable and included, right?

Obviously we can't accede to everyone's wishes; it's actually impossible as many of us have wishes which are mutually exclusive to the wishes of others. In a nutshell: why are your political beliefs about proper speech more important than mine? I believe it's offensive to accuse people using simple gender personification as sexist but you don't see starting a campaign to stop you from saying it; and yet it makes me uncomfortable and is directly at odds with my inclusion on this forum. Your suggestion that I'm somehow a bad person for thinking your read of a common language technique is incorrect is no less problematic than the very subject that started this discussion.


Actually I wasn't specifically referring to you. Sorry if you thought I was. I'm sure though there are ways of avoiding saying "fill 'er up". It's a strong argument that referring to all possessed objects in the feminine says more about possession than it does about anything else. I'd be genuinely interested to know what your background is that so foregrounds this issue, genuinely so, I'm not trying to be smart.

What I do know is that I'm not a woman and I have to trust women when they say that language like that, combined with a whole host of other aspects, makes it difficult for them to participate. I know a few women who do not participate on this forum because they feel like it is a boys' club. I don't think it really matters if there is a bundle of rational arguments why they shouldn't feel that way. I think we should make an effort to make them feel welcome.

It's just my view. I appreciate you may have a different view.
dubonaire
strettara wrote:
Oh it's beside the point. So the very examples that listentoaheartbeat has used throughout this thread, repeatedly and passionately, to highlight the rampant sexism in this forum, turn out to be beside the point. Silly me!

I'm sorry, but this simply demonstrates that this is a completely contentious and specious polemic. Game over.


No, it's demonstrating you are not seeing the woods for the trees.
strettara
listentoaheartbeat wrote:
What do we know now? That you have a tendency to bend and manipulate the positions of others in a condescending manner?


I shouldn't do this, because you are very evidently arguing in bad faith and have an axe to grind, but how am I being condescending and manipulative? I simply did a google search and posted the results.

In any normal context, the results I've linked to would clearly demonstrate that your accusation of widespread sexism is completely specious. At the most, one of them could be labelled as being slightly off-colour, but in none of them is there any intent (express or implicit) to malign, oppress or in any way harm women. Your own examples refute your point. You lose.

Of course you won't stop arguing, but that's quite simply how it is.

And now I'm going to award you the Dog-Faced Ape prize: ignore.
dubonaire
Just to be clear. I don't think this is a rampantly sexist forum. But it is an environment in which women come in have a look around and think "not for me". If that's what the majority want, then it's no big deal for me. Just don't pretend it doesn't have those characteristics because it does.
strettara
dubonaire wrote:
strettara wrote:
Oh it's beside the point. So the very examples that listentoaheartbeat has used throughout this thread, repeatedly and passionately, to highlight the rampant sexism in this forum, turn out to be beside the point. Silly me!

I'm sorry, but this simply demonstrates that this is a completely contentious and specious polemic. Game over.


No, it's demonstrating you are not seeing the woods for the trees.


When the argument is: there's a wood here, because look at these trees, then surely seeing the trees is the heart of the matter.
Joe.
Posts in this thread cant be edited, the demonstrable proof will always be viewable, including all the times you cited 'fill her up' thumbs up
listentoaheartbeat
strettara wrote:
the very examples that listentoaheartbeat has used throughout this thread, repeatedly and passionately


I posted the examples once, and then other members engaged in a discussion about them, which I responded to. Don't confuse the example with the underlying issue.

You are just trying to attack me, and obviously believe to have found a weak spot in my argument. Which might be true, but then again what does this lead to? You are just being destructive - which is a pity, since questioning our communicative behaviour in order to create a more welcoming and inclusive atmosphere in the forum is an inherently positive notion.
ngarjuna
dubonaire wrote:
Actually I wasn't specifically referring to you. Sorry if you thought I was. I'm sure though there are ways of avoiding saying "fill 'er up". It's a strong argument that referring to all possessed objects in the feminine says more about possession than it does about anything else. I'd be genuinely interested to know what your background is that so foregrounds this issue, genuinely so, I'm not trying to be smart.

What I do know is that I'm not a woman and I have to trust women when they say that language like that, combined with a whole host of other aspects, makes it difficult for them to participate. I know a few women who do not participate on this forum because they feel like it is a boys' club. I don't think it really matters if there is a bundle of rational arguments why they shouldn't feel that way. I think we should make an effort to make them feel welcome.

It's just my view. I appreciate you may have a different view.

Fair enough. I didn't take your post as a personal attack (although I can see from what I replied that it probably appears that I took it personally), it just struck me that it's totally impossible to live up to everyone's expectations, hence the absurd hyperbole (it's probably obvious but I don't really believe that, it was just meant to be a very absurd and directly contradictory example).

So the question of which expectations are reasonable really is a worthwhile concern. That's really my main disagreement here; I don't disagree that sexist speech is problematic but I do think we should be careful when deciding what's 'problematic'.
dubonaire
strettara wrote:
dubonaire wrote:
strettara wrote:
Oh it's beside the point. So the very examples that listentoaheartbeat has used throughout this thread, repeatedly and passionately, to highlight the rampant sexism in this forum, turn out to be beside the point. Silly me!

I'm sorry, but this simply demonstrates that this is a completely contentious and specious polemic. Game over.


No, it's demonstrating you are not seeing the woods for the trees.


When the argument is: there's a wood here, because look at these trees, then surely seeing the trees is the heart of the matter.


Ha! I can't see the woods for the trees because look! Trees!
dubonaire
ngarjuna wrote:
dubonaire wrote:
Actually I wasn't specifically referring to you. Sorry if you thought I was. I'm sure though there are ways of avoiding saying "fill 'er up". It's a strong argument that referring to all possessed objects in the feminine says more about possession than it does about anything else. I'd be genuinely interested to know what your background is that so foregrounds this issue, genuinely so, I'm not trying to be smart.

What I do know is that I'm not a woman and I have to trust women when they say that language like that, combined with a whole host of other aspects, makes it difficult for them to participate. I know a few women who do not participate on this forum because they feel like it is a boys' club. I don't think it really matters if there is a bundle of rational arguments why they shouldn't feel that way. I think we should make an effort to make them feel welcome.

It's just my view. I appreciate you may have a different view.

Fair enough. I didn't take your post as a personal attack (although I can see from what I replied that it probably appears that I took it personally), it just struck me that it's totally impossible to live up to everyone's expectations, hence the absurd hyperbole (it's probably obvious but I don't really believe that, it was just meant to be a very absurd and directly contradictory example).

So the question of which expectations are reasonable really is a worthwhile concern. That's really my main disagreement here; I don't disagree that sexist speech is problematic but I do think we should be careful when deciding what's 'problematic'.


OK. My vibe here is that it is a male dominated forum in which some people feel it's OK to make some pretty derogatory comments (and much worse than the "fill 'er up" comments (see what I did there lo-fi?)). I've had feedback from women that they don't feel fully comfortable. I also think some men fall into ways of thinking and acting that don't make women feel comfortable. That's what I got from listentoaheartbeat's argument. I think targeting in on just that element misses the bigger picture, and maybe listentoaheartbeat got sucked into defending that particular point. It happens.
Joe.
ngarjuna wrote:
I don't disagree that sexist speech is problematic but I do think we should be careful when deciding what's 'problematic'.


Thread getting back on topic? Great thumbs up

I definitely agree, and it's probably possible to create a set of guidelines that can help limit sexist posting that all cultures, and any nationalits can appreciate.
I like to he current mod rules, but perhaps the policies around pornography could be reviewed more often as the forum grows?

A poll on wether or not porn is offensive here would be much more useful than a poll on an (unchangable) business name.
Joe.
No editing, curse that double edged sword hihi

I have no idea how kids type on these tablets so well confused
strettara
That has already been done to death, and as I recall the outcome was that any "porn" would be restricted to the NSFW threads, now in the Members Only Forum. The threads are clearly labelled and members can decide whether to read/participate in them.

Of course, anyone on a mission to be offended can view them and be offended. But they can't say they weren't warned.
Stollmeister
LoFi Junglist wrote:
Posts in this thread cant be edited, the demonstrable proof will always be viewable, including all the times you cited 'fill her up' thumbs up


That is not fair to Strettara. You are missing the distinction between use and mention. Compare the following two sentences:
1. Dogs are animals
2. "Dogs" is a word with four letters.

In 1 I am using the word to express the meaning of the word.
In 2 I am mentioning the word and express something about it. In 2 I am not expressing the meaning of the word.

What Strettara is obviously doing when he is using this phrase in this discussion is mentioning the phrase, not using the phrase. A valid google search for the problematic phrases would only include the cases where the phrase is used, not where it is mentioned.

Ok, carry on!
Sinamsis
If anyone is seriously threatened by this forum then they've got problems. This is the least intimidating forum out there. Maybe online forums just aren't for these men and women alike.

And to be honest I know many more dudes that are synth nerds than women. I won't speculate why because I'll be called a sexist. But I really would be surprised if a female synth/music enthusiast felt uncomfortable on this forum. If they don't want to participate I suspect it's because they just don't care enough to do so. Not because they're afraid of getting raped or sexually harassed.

My fiancée for example is a classically trained pianist. She loves music. But she just doesn't get the Muff Wiggler scene, my modular/gear obsession, etc. She by no means feels threatened by a bunch of computer nerds (her words not mine) and she certainly doesn't care if I wear my MW shirt in public where MUFF is written in all capitals. In fact she steals it every now and then. Oh and she has a filthier mouth than most people on this forum.
Joe.
But posters aren't really "restricted". People are freem to dump images in any thread, and then it's a matter of mods finding it, or responding to messages. More importantly there doesn't seem to be consequences to dumping NSFW pics any where you want. I've seen it a few times.

I don't think there should be instant bans for first offences, but surely there must be some system that can be used to reinforce these 'restrictions'.
dubonaire
Joe.
That soup strainer is magnificint love

I'd hoped that when I stopped trimming my moustache it would grow out to my chin or something, bit of disappointment when I found out there's predefined limits to hair length on different parts of the body.
Dr. Sketch-n-Etch
ngarjuna wrote:
What you don't know about me is that I find gender neutral discussion to be extremely offensive.

I'm with you, ngarjuna! Every time I read the pronoun "their" as a singular, gender-neutral replacement of the (actually gender-neutral) "his", I want to kill myself. It's incorrect, it's wrong, and it degrades the english language. I am a feminist, and I believe in complete gender equality in the workplace, breaking the glass ceiling, equal pay for equal work, a woman's right to choose, etc, etc, etc. Just leave my grammar alone!
slow_riot
Dr. Sketch-n-Etch wrote:
I am a feminist, and I believe in complete gender equality in the workplace


https://www.muffwiggler.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=1167422&bypass=11674 22#1167422
slow_riot
Personally I think that's a poor way to treat a relative newcomer to your industry, and though perhaps innocent enough would be the kind of thing that might not make someone feel welcome. I actually mentioned it to her and she thought I was being too sensitive, but I do think that someone less single minded, and without support from other experienced professionals, might definitely be jostled from their fledgling steps in a new professional environment.
TheEngineer
There's not enough dicks in this thread.

More PENOR please, because face it, that's what women really want!
Muff Wiggler
That doesn't help :(
Sinamsis
Well I might say that comment as a perfect example. Some will misconstrue that as a woman hating comment. I take it as sarcasm. A satire in the whole discussion. It's terrible and fucking awesome at the same time. And sure to get someone's goat.
Dr. Sketch-n-Etch
slow_riot wrote:
Dr. Sketch-n-Etch wrote:
I am a feminist, and I believe in complete gender equality in the workplace


https://www.muffwiggler.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=1167422&bypass=11674 22#1167422


Not really getting your point. Why did you link that thread?
Sinamsis
Get im doc! Get im! Is that sexist?
Matos
Because when your grasping at straws why not?
Chiffre
strettara wrote:
.....as I recall the outcome was that any "porn" would be restricted to the NSFW threads, now in the Members Only Forum.


I was quite offended by some of the images I saw posted as I state previous. The above quoted solution seem a viable way to prevent accidental viewing of objectionable material and I say thank you for implementation.
listentoaheartbeat
TheEngineer wrote:
There's not enough dicks in this thread.

More PENOR please, because face it, that's what women really want!


Muff Wiggler wrote:
That doesn't help :(


Mike, thanks for chiming in. In an attempt of constructive criticism, let me suggest that in order to create a more welcoming atmosphere for women in this forum, it would be helpful if you took an even clearer stance against posts like the above. If you don't want stuff like that here, why not issue a warning and tell the guy to shut up? Especially if the poster has a history of sexist postings like TheEngineer:

https://www.muffwiggler.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=1532141&highlight=#1 532141

On a side note, the thread linked above is an interesting (and, to me, disturbing) read in the light of this discussion.

For example, even the possibility of a woman being attacked for posting about not feeling welcome here is ruled out per se:

strettara wrote:
slow_riot wrote:
What more will it take. Someone has written that they don't feel welcome here.


They have - but not on the forum, on a site called bluestockingmag. Why didn't she just post something on this subfoum? Afraid she'd be attacked? Show me one instance of a woman being attacked on muffwiggler for voicing an opinion.
Muff Wiggler
You're welcome. Thank-you for the very reasonable and constructive suggestions - I appreciate it. Unfortunately I'm afraid you are not going to like my response:

I've taken a clear stance in the rules.

The community needs to (and can, and generally does) moderate it's own behaviour. Unless there is a specific threat made or blatant breaking of the rules the moderators can't be expected to hold everyone's hands. This is an 18+ community, we are all adults and the place is just too big for that kind of babysitting.

I need to take this somewhat harsh black & white approach because forum culture is for a large part influenced by people (i'm not naming names, you all know who I am talking about) who love to play in the grey areas of what is and isn't acceptable, taunting and pushing against what rules and moderation there is in order to build drama, feel smart and important, and test the limits. Which ultimately leads to a ban, which ultimately leads to multiple attacks on the administrative staff, which sucks for everyone.

So no, I really can't hold everyone's hand. I'm sorry.

For fuck's sake, I hardly ever post any more, for the very reason you mentioned: fear of getting attacked. Everything that happens here is my fault.

I sure as hell don't feel welcome here most of the time.
Sinamsis
You're welcome here any time buddy. And if you're ever in San Anton hit me up. Beers on me. Fuck the naysayers.
TheEngineer
listentoaheartbeat wrote:
TheEngineer wrote:
There's not enough dicks in this thread.

More PENOR please, because face it, that's what women really want!


Muff Wiggler wrote:
That doesn't help :(


Mike, thanks for chiming in. In an attempt of constructive criticism, let me suggest that in order to create a more welcoming atmosphere for women in this forum, it would be helpful if you took an even clearer stance against posts like the above. If you don't want stuff like that here, why not issue a warning and tell the guy to shut up? Especially if the poster has a history of sexist postings like TheEngineer:

https://www.muffwiggler.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=1532141&highlight=#1 532141

On a side note, the thread linked above is an interesting (and, to me, disturbing) read in the light of this discussion.

For example, even the possibility of a woman being attacked for posting about not feeling welcome here is ruled out per se:

strettara wrote:
slow_riot wrote:
What more will it take. Someone has written that they don't feel welcome here.


They have - but not on the forum, on a site called bluestockingmag. Why didn't she just post something on this subfoum? Afraid she'd be attacked? Show me one instance of a woman being attacked on muffwiggler for voicing an opinion.


Hey NB. Sorry but I have never made a sexist comment on this forum. If you don't get sarcasm, it's not my problem. This thread is a total joke. Mike, thank you for being a reasonable human being and for all you do with the site. Amazing community and your lack of fucks given to people like NB make it that much more awesome. Cheers and muffwiggle on!
Sinamsis
You're welcome here any time buddy. And if you're ever in San Anton hit me up. Beers on me. Fuck the naysayers.
Dave Kendall
If the guy that started and continues to fund this awesome site that's *TOTALLY FREE* to use feels uncomfortable coming here because of the flak he gets, then maybe some site users are doing something wrong?

Think about that, and the fact that the site's still running strong - these are *not* the actions of an intolerant site owner.

Mike not feeling welcome on his own bloody site is the saddest last line in a post I have ever read on MW.
dubonaire
Muff Wiggler wrote:
You're welcome. Thank-you for the very reasonable and constructive suggestions - I appreciate it. Unfortunately I'm afraid you are not going to like my response:

I've taken a clear stance in the rules.

The community needs to (and can, and generally does) moderate it's own behaviour. Unless there is a specific threat made or blatant breaking of the rules the moderators can't be expected to hold everyone's hands. This is an 18+ community, we are all adults and the place is just too big for that kind of babysitting.

I need to take this somewhat harsh black & white approach because forum culture is for a large part influenced by people (i'm not naming names, you all know who I am talking about) who love to play in the grey areas of what is and isn't acceptable, taunting and pushing against what rules and moderation there is in order to build drama, feel smart and important, and test the limits. Which ultimately leads to a ban, which ultimately leads to multiple attacks on the administrative staff, which sucks for everyone.

So no, I really can't hold everyone's hand. I'm sorry.

For fuck's sake, I hardly ever post any more, for the very reason you mentioned: fear of getting attacked. Everything that happens here is my fault.

I sure as hell don't feel welcome here most of the time.


Hi Mike. I trust you don't feel like I'm attacking you because I'm not. I'm also sorry to hear you feel that way about posting in the forum.

I appreciate your notion of self-regulation, but if you look at a this thread you could draw the conclusion that it might self-regulate to a position regarded as appropriate by a few dominant (arguably dominating) members.

By and large I think the forum is relatively harmonious and decent as forums go. Maybe this is as good as it can get. But I think if members really do want the best possible community listentoaheartbeat's views deserve a bit more respect and consideration.
sduck
listentoaheartbeat wrote:
If you don't want stuff like that here, why not issue a warning and tell the guy to shut up?


dubonaire wrote:
But I think if members really do want the best possible community listentoaheartbeat's views deserve a bit more respect and consideration.


Let me see if I understand this correctly: You're suggesting that we (the mods) should be on PC patrol. Anything that we construe as sexist (and/or whatever the next cause du jour is) will get a warning. Ok. That's a literal shit ton of work to pile on volunteers who do this in their spare time. But... ok. And who'd going to create the guidelines to determine what is and what is not sexist (and/or whatever the next cause du jour is)? But... ok. Are we going to use American cultural guidelines, or European, Australian, Japanese, wherever, or some mash-up of all of them (which would basically eliminate any and all colloquialisms)? But... hmmm. What happens after said warning is issued, and perhaps the offender ignores it? Editing by the mods (I. E. censorship)? Ban them? (no hard feelings though, nothing personal, etc.)

This is a forum about modular synths. What if some yahoo decides that patch cords and jacks are too overtly sexual. Do we ban discussion of anything related to plugging in jacks?

Look, I know I'm blowing this up a bit for dramatic effect. But there have been several calls for "some kind of policy" - could someone come up with one that is actually well thought out and the majority of people here would agree with? And please - make it something that the general membership can do, and not depend on the mods to implement - we really have enough stuff to do already.

We could appoint a handful of members here to be the PC police - keep an eye on things, issue polite warnings, be an important part of what makes Muff's a cool place. We'll give you a cool avatar, and maybe send you a sticker or two. Any volunteers? Tell you what - the next 5 people to post to this thread are it! Go!
ignatius
are fishsticks ok?

btw.. as topsy turvy as this discussion has been at times i think the net result will tilt towards the positive. awareness.. airing of grievances.. all sides spoken for. circles and circles made in the grass to remind us..

i hope those of you celebrating with turkey and stuff on thursday will enjoy your day .. the rest of you. .er.. enjoy your thursday too. Mr. Green
Smokey
Like with "The Market" subforum heading, perhaps each forum should have the warning "don't be a douche"...

or perhaps "don't be a dick"

No no....

"Don't be an asshole" as not to be gender specific.



waah seriously, i just don't get it
senecio
The question shouldn't be "is muffwiggler offensive?" You would have to be really, really ignorant to not know that "muffwiggler" is offensive, and was obviously designed on some level of immaturity to be offensive (in the vein of a punk rock band name etc.)

The question should be something like "Does it bother you that this forum has an offensive name?" or "do you care that this forum has a name that can feel offensive towards women?"

I think anyone can understand how the name could get created, and that the author could not have anticipated it would turn into a forum of this size.

A somewhat similar thing happened to an art blog based in NYC. It was called "Art Fag City". Just as Muffwiggler became a huge, wonderful forum and rescource for those interested in synthesizers, Art Fag City became an internationally known blog that is a really important rescource to those interested in the New York art world. There was a point though, where Art Fag City got so big, they realized, it really was time they tone thier name down so everyone could feel a bit more comfortable. It's now called Art F City.

I know that Art Fag City and Muffwiggler don't share the exact same problem as names. Changing Art Fag City makes it more user friendly in the workplace etc. But it's not offensive in the the same way as Muffwiggler is.

Art Fag City's in your face name is sort of inclusive. But Muffwiggler feels exclusive, and that's where I think people start to feel yucky about it.

Obviously, the answers to this pole that matter the most are those from women. Most of the guys on this forum (most, not all) could probably care less, because "Muffwiggler" does not offend them, or does not hint at excluding them through its gender biased sence of humor.

I am a professor at a university and I like to check in on the forum once in a while during the day, but all sorts of people are in and out of my office during the day, and I cringe a bit when I realize I've had the Muffwiggler window open. For me, That cringe tells me something's wrong with the name.
dubonaire
sduck wrote:
listentoaheartbeat wrote:
If you don't want stuff like that here, why not issue a warning and tell the guy to shut up?


dubonaire wrote:
But I think if members really do want the best possible community listentoaheartbeat's views deserve a bit more respect and consideration.


Let me see if I understand this correctly: You're suggesting that we (the mods) should be on PC patrol. Anything that we construe as sexist (and/or whatever the next cause du jour is) will get a warning. Ok. That's a literal shit ton of work to pile on volunteers who do this in their spare time. But... ok. And who'd going to create the guidelines to determine what is and what is not sexist (and/or whatever the next cause du jour is)? But... ok. Are we going to use American cultural guidelines, or European, Australian, Japanese, wherever, or some mash-up of all of them (which would basically eliminate any and all colloquialisms)? But... hmmm. What happens after said warning is issued, and perhaps the offender ignores it? Editing by the mods (I. E. censorship)? Ban them? (no hard feelings though, nothing personal, etc.)

This is a forum about modular synths. What if some yahoo decides that patch cords and jacks are too overtly sexual. Do we ban discussion of anything related to plugging in jacks?

Look, I know I'm blowing this up a bit for dramatic effect. But there have been several calls for "some kind of policy" - could someone come up with one that is actually well thought out and the majority of people here would agree with? And please - make it something that the general membership can do, and not depend on the mods to implement - we really have enough stuff to do already.

We could appoint a handful of members here to be the PC police - keep an eye on things, issue polite warnings, be an important part of what makes Muff's a cool place. We'll give you a cool avatar, and maybe send you a sticker or two. Any volunteers? Tell you what - the next 5 people to post to this thread are it! Go!


Let me see if I understand you correctly. Using a pejorative term like "PC Patrol" suggests you harbour some underlying contempt for the idea, am I right?

It could be as simple as suggesting obviously offensive posts get reported and moderators can make a warning. Apparently it's infrequent so it can't be too much of an impost. Your notion that there is some kind of gaping geo-cultural chasm requiring difficult policy formulation is totally overblown. I think most of them are quite obvious. That would be a small but useful start. It would demonstrate that this is a respectful community and that can only be a good thing. I think there is a fairly easy balance that will achieve a respectful community without being thought police.

Addressing casual gender-oriented pronouns etc might not be achievable nor necessary but I'm sure listentoaheartbeat was talking more about a state of mind than expecting that level of scrutiny.
ignatius
dubonaire wrote:

It could be as simple as suggesting obviously offensive posts get reported and moderators can make a warning.


moderators already delete/move etc obviously offensive or inappropriate posts. always have.

dubonaire wrote:
Apparently it's infrequent so it can't be too much of an impost. Your notion that there is some kind of gaping geo-cultural chasm requiring difficult policy formulation is totally overblown. I think most of them are quite obvious. That would be a small but useful start. It would demonstrate that this is a respectful community and that can only be a good thing. I think there is a fairly easy balance that will achieve a respectful community without being thought police.


i think the worry is getting a hundred pms about what boils down to grammar snoots.

the "obvious" things have always been dealt with. but splitting hairs over what is or isn't sexist language under a microscope is a lot to ask imo. just look at the nuances in this thread. different languages and cultures. this is why it's up to the forum to be aware of cultural differences and have some tolerance for things that might strike one as offensive when really it's just a miscommunication.

that's why usually.. when someone says something stupid and sexist it's already dealt with by other forum members before mods are even notified. people call it out right away in the relevant thread and someone drops a PM to a mod and the mod can then send a warning or "hey, be cool. that's not necessary. show some respect" etc to the culprit.

which is what i think Mike was referring to.. the forum needs to manage itself to a degree and the mods can deal w/the egregious stuff or scammer or people making runs of posts to get to 100 so they can sell stuff.. deleting spam etc etc..
Joe.
sduck wrote:
the next 5 people to post to this thread are it! Go!


Yay!, can finally post again without conscription!

To address concerns about profile pics could the "Avatar Control Panel" text be modified to contain a warning about graphic or NSFW material? there's nothing in the 'FAQ & Terms Of Use' that mentions NSFW materiel in Avatars.

Even a simple "Before uploading this picture please consider if it is objectionable or NSFW" would be a great. (it doesn't have to be Moderator enforced, I'm sure just having the warning there would be enough to discourage uploading)

Restricting NSFW material to certain threads/subforums is great for avoiding problems, but people still have to scroll past Avatars that may be deemed sexist/objectifying anywhere on the board, before they can click the 'Hide Avatar' button.

Poster below me is a skeleton.
thetwlo
just having respect for others works. (self included)
think before you post.
Joe.
thetwlo wrote:
just having respect for others works. (self included)
think before you post.


Sure, 'Please be respectful to others' could also be used in the Avatar Control panel. It's much more concise than my suggestion.

TBH that's really the only legitimate suggestion i could come up for preventing some of the complaints about sexism here. Everything else, as Sduck pointed out is a bit silly (policing pronouns).
strettara
The problem is, there is a genuine power imbalance on this forum. It's best understood in terms of the "pussies, dicks and assholes" paradigm (Parker and Stone, 2004). The forum is run by normal, easy going people who just want to get along with other people. They joke around and talk about synths, and they even have a fenced off area with warnings posted on it where mildly un-PC banter is tolerated. And everything is fine. But, every so often, this nice place is invaded by someone who just wants to burn everything to ground over nothing. Since the nice guys just want to accommodate everyone's wishes and get along, the invaders have almost unlimited power over them, because they are remorseless in their quest to make other people feel their discomfort (with what, exactly, they can never explain or exemplify, but still). They have a mission, it is a sacred calling. To make the world a better place (even, or especially, if it means that everyone else has to stop enjoying themselves and getting along).

Which is why occasionally someone has to be a dick.

Anyway, I'm not good at the academic side of things, so here's Parker and Stone's seminal exposition of the paradigm:

[video]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y2GwrR-4Q9E[/video]
strettara
Well that didn't work, apologies:

thetwlo
really?
Rigo
strettara wrote:
Well that didn't work, apologies:

People should preview their posts before submitting, so they could still edit it properly. Or not submit it. I know that I didn't submit posts several times because of not bringing anything to the discussion. And it wasn't even because of possibly offending content.
I'm not talking about you post above, I agree with it Guinness ftw!
strettara
Yeah, really.
Joe.
strettara wrote:
The forum is run by normal, easy going people who just want to get along with other people. They joke around and talk about synths, and they even have a fenced off area with warnings posted on it where mildly un-PC banter is tolerated.


They a huge influence over forum members though, with the language that is used in a few places. I've seen "don't be a douche" mentioned many times in threads that aren't in the BST.

I think that message has become ingrained in the psyche of plenty of users over time.

Now imagine if "please be considerate" was placed in the Avatar control panel. Every new user is going to end up seeing it, and while it won't be viewed as many times as the BST motto, it will help reinforce the notion that being considerate is a key part to being a member here.

I'm sure a few subtle phases like that in some key locations (like the FAQ & terms of use) would be more beneficial that harmful, plus it helps nullify accusations of being 'supportive' of attitudes that some people find offensive.
strettara
How considerate do you want people to be? Who decides?

Chiffre's avatar might well be offensive to our fundamentalist Muslim members - or maybe it has even turned some Muslims away from joining the forum because she isn't wearing a veil.

My avatar may be offensive to Mexicans, because the Wild Bunch killed hundreds of Mexicans in the final shootout of that film.

I will admit that I was very shocked and upset by that use of the word douche, but you know what, I got some counselling (well, I drank several bottles of Wild Turkey), and I got over it.

Some people set out to be offended. You can't stop them being offended by anything you do and - above all - to take them seriously is to give them power over you.
thetwlo
only YOU decide, just treat all with respect as if you are a part of this community. that's all.

strettara wrote:
How considerate do you want people to be? Who decides?

Chiffre's avatar might well be offensive to our fundamentalist Muslim members - or maybe it has even turned some Muslims away from joining the forum because she isn't wearing a veil.

My avatar may be offensive to Mexicans, because the Wild Bunch killed hundreds of Mexicans in the final shootout of that film.

I will admit that I was very shocked and upset by that use of the word douche, but you know what, I got some counselling (well, I drank several bottles of Wild Turkey), and I got over it.

Some people set out to be offended. You can't stop them being offended by anything you do and - above all - to take them seriously is to give them power over you.
dubonaire
strettara wrote:
How considerate do you want people to be? Who decides?

Chiffre's avatar might well be offensive to our fundamentalist Muslim members - or maybe it has even turned some Muslims away from joining the forum because she isn't wearing a veil.

My avatar may be offensive to Mexicans, because the Wild Bunch killed hundreds of Mexicans in the final shootout of that film.

I will admit that I was very shocked and upset by that use of the word douche, but you know what, I got some counselling (well, I drank several bottles of Wild Turkey), and I got over it.

Some people set out to be offended. You can't stop them being offended by anything you do and - above all - to take them seriously is to give them power over you.


To be honest you are being a bit ridiculous. You are using extreme examples and making quite extraordinary assumptions about the motivations of people who would like to see change. They might not be justified changes, but suggesting there is some kind of subversive power war going on and bringing up ad absurdum examples like offending Islamic fundamentalists doesn't help. If there is a war, I might suggest it is in your world. It's certainly not in mine.

I agree with some others that this discussion may lead to a nicer place.
thetwlo
Joe.
strettara wrote:
How considerate do you want people to be? Who decides?.


I didn't mention setting a desirable benchmark, or implementing a PC mod to oversee it, I specifically mentioned that it doesn't need to be moderator enforced. That avoids all the trouble of 'globally accepted set of ethics'.

By leaving it undeclared, users would have to actually think about it themselves, a type of Self-evaluation. Of course they're free to continue posting closeups of women's asses or tits as their Avatar, and don't need to fear Admin moderation. The community will just end up doing what it normally does, self policing, but closer to the Ideals that Admin have said they want.

The benefit, as i clearly stated when i made the suggestion, is that it reinforces the 'vibe' that the mods want to promote. And these markers can be really subtle and sprinkled in just a few places. The one in the BST is working fantastically.

An unwritten policy like 'be considerate' might be understood by a majority of people, but putting it in writing prevents the minority from saying "I'm not doing anything wrong", or worse, blaming Admin for being complacent, and therefor supportive (a shitty argument that also seems to pop up from time to time, and I'm sure will continue to)
listentoaheartbeat
sduck wrote:
listentoaheartbeat wrote:
If you don't want stuff like that here, why not issue a warning and tell the guy to shut up?


dubonaire wrote:
But I think if members really do want the best possible community listentoaheartbeat's views deserve a bit more respect and consideration.


Let me see if I understand this correctly: You're suggesting that we (the mods) should be on PC patrol.


No, what I am suggesting is that if a moderator stumbles upon a case of blatant sexism (like here), it would be helpful to take a clear stance against it and issue a warning to the user. It has also been mentioned by moderators in this thread that violations of the rules in terms of sexism should be called out and that the moderators will take action against it. TheEngineer has a history of sexist postings (not only in this thread and the one I linked) and is clearly violating the rules. Whatever the policies are to deal with users who repeatedly violate the rules (warning, bans, etc.) is obviously up to you, but I think this issue should be given a bit more weight. I don't think you should scan the forums for it, but if something catches your attention like in this case, I vote for an unmistakeable response and an open warning. This will help creating a more inclusive and welcoming atmosphere for women in the forum, and make it harder for sexists like TheEngineer to stage his derogative comments.
strettara
dubonaire wrote:
To be honest you are being a bit ridiculous. You are using extreme examples and making quite extraordinary assumptions about the motivations of people who would like to see change.


Well it's a reductio argument, that's how they work. I was just trying to come up the standard of absurdity set so ably by listentoaheartbeat with "fill her up" and "patch her up".

I am a bit disappointed that you seem to care so little for the feelings of Muslims and Mexicans though.
Muff Wiggler
wait, what if TheEngineer doesn't listen?

do we ban him? is that gonna be worse then when we banned Nelson?

you have been extremely critical about that banning yet Nelson caused vastly more problems here than TheEngineer ever has, and in fact Nelson's behaviour caused numerous 'formal' complaints to come my way and he is absolutely unique in this forum's history in that regard. Yet banning him has soured a great number of people against me and continues to be brought up as a combative talking point around the whole trope of me being an uncaring insane mean lunatic.

anyway lets say we ban TheEngineer. does the banning of TheEngineer then get to be used in the future on a list of bullet points of why we are awful tyrant people, you know, when someone isn't happy that they can't get what they want?

where does it end yo?
metasonix
Muff Wiggler wrote:
anyway lets say we ban TheEngineer. does the banning of TheEngineer then get to be used in the future on a list of bullet points of why we are awful tyrant people, you know, when someone isn't happy that they can't get what they want?

Of course you'll get that. However, if you don't ban the hardened trolls from time to time, they'll think you're "soft", and that will attract more trolls.

Go and ask the mods at Wikipediocracy. They have to kick out about 1-3 people every month for trolling and manipulations, plus the sysop bounces 10-20 new accounts per month that are pure spammer sockpuppets. The forum makes a few enemies, but they always prove to be too crazy for anyone else to believe or sympathize with them. (Most of them were already banned from Wikipedia. A troll is a troll regardless of their favorite subjects.) It's a part of running any open, public forum, and the more popular the forum, the worse the trolling can be.

There's a nut on there right now called "Sidereal" who is clearly around just for one job, to insult a well-known Wikipedian named Eric Corbett. He/she/it's already been blocked for 3 days, numerous threads he started have been tossed in the trashbin, and yet Sidereal keeps coming back to the same subjects and beating the same dead horses. Undoubtedly a sockpuppet of someone who we've seen before on Wikipedia, abusing people. They'll have to toss that one soon. Guaranteed.

Could swear I told you this years ago......
listentoaheartbeat
Muff Wiggler wrote:
wait, what if TheEngineer doesn't listen?

do we ban him? is that gonna be worse then when we banned Nelson?

you have been extremely critical about that banning yet Nelson caused vastly more problems here than TheEngineer ever has, and in fact Nelson's behaviour caused numerous 'formal' complaints to come my way and he is absolutely unique in this forum's history in that regard. Yet banning him has soured a great number of people against me and continues to be brought up as a combative talking point around the whole trope of me being an uncaring insane mean lunatic.

anyway lets say we ban TheEngineer. does the banning of TheEngineer then get to be used in the future on a list of bullet points of why we are awful tyrant people, you know, when someone isn't happy that they can't get what they want?

where does it end yo?


Again, what I suggest is a strong rejection of sexist postings like the Engineer's ones, officially disapproving his behaviour and making it unmistakeably clear that he is violating the rules. Apparently he respects you very much, so telling him to shut up might make him spend a thought or two on this.

I remember you taking very clear stances against other members whose actions you considered to be harmful to the community, including myself. I consider this to be a good thing, and it certainly made me think about my conduct, especially when I attacked you in an unreasonable manner after Gene's banning. I remember taking a step back and apologizing. Yes, I still do not hold my critique back on any occasion, and my choice of words might be too strong at times, but I can assure you that I have been trying my best to be more considerate about my postings concerning the operation of the site and your actions. Again, I wouldn't get involved in these discussions as much as I do if I didn't care for this community.

Anyways, I think I have made my points. I hope that this discussion will help to make us all think about how we can create a more inclusive and welcoming atmosphere in this forum and be more considerate when a woman expresses her concerns about the community.
usw
eek! having a look at TheEngineer's posts history eek!
TheBradster
usw wrote:
eek! having a look at TheEngineer's posts history eek!

And what did you find, pray tell?
I had a quick check myself, and from what I can tell, TheEngineer:

* Has never posted pornographic material;
* Has not excessively used gender-specific pronouns;
* Participates in many groups and the majority of his posts are about modules and synthesis in general.
* Seems to treat other members with respect.

He* has participated in some threads about sexism, and as far as I can tell, has come with his heartfelt opinion. I do not necessarily agree with him, but we don't all have to agree, do we?

One of his posts *may* be considered slightly trollish, or provocative, but other than that I feel he has pursued a more or less civil discourse.

Is this good enough reason to ban him?

* No reason to assume gender here, but I am guessing TheEngineer is male.
usw
Massive trolling in the mungo thread gene created about a missing jumper, including a full page message of "this shit again fap fap fap..." smileys , some awkward positions that rightfully raised many critics in the "women and modulars ?" thread, some standard sexist pictures in the "saw this strange article about the forum and sexism" thread, and a number of inoffensive but gross posts like this one :
Quote:
lol @ this thread

10 pages of "my nuts won't stay in place"

Some men prefer boxers some briefs..personally I like room for my shit to move around.

You could try those boxer briefs, I hear they keep your nuts in place but won't suffocate your module.


Now reconsider his meant to be humorous/sarcastic message in this very thread :
Quote:
There's not enough dicks in this thread.

More PENOR please, because face it, that's what women really want!


And tell me if he couldn't do with a "think twice before posting" warning...
usw
Don't mistake my position : I don't want everybody to share the same opinion, but any social interaction needs some safe and common ground, and saying that such attitudes put women and lgbt's off shouldn't be a surprise for anyone.
strettara
usw wrote:
blah blah blah blah blah a number of inoffensive but gross posts like this one :
Quote:
lol @ this thread

10 pages of "my nuts won't stay in place"

Some men prefer boxers some briefs..personally I like room for my shit to move around.

You could try those boxer briefs, I hear they keep your nuts in place but won't suffocate your module.


So now we're taking offence at the inoffensive lol lol lol

Yes folks, it's the new frontier in policing social interaction. You too can boldly go.
TheBradster
usw wrote:
Don't mistake my position : I don't want everybody to share the same opinion, but any social interaction needs some safe and common ground, and saying that such attitudes put women and lgbt's off shouldn't be a surprise for anyone.


Meh, let's agree to disagree on this one. I think the fact that a number of people reacted negatively to some of TheEngineers posts in the "sexist" thread is a good sign that self-moderation on the forum works to a reasonable degree.

As far as mentioning body parts, I don't think innuendo and mildly off-color humor are in and of themselves inherently sexist.

I agree with LoFi Junglist re: the odd reminder to be reasonable and respectful with avatars (among other things) is another good suggestion for self-moderation. PrimateSynthesis' suggestion to move the "stupid/funny" thread was also a reasonable idea, that was almost immediately implemented.
TheBradster
Salman Rusdie wrote:
Quote:
“Nobody has the right to not be offended. That right doesn't exist in any declaration I have ever read.

If you are offended it is your problem, and frankly lots of things offend lots of people.

I can walk into a bookshop and point out a number of books that I find very unattractive in what they say. But it doesn't occur to me to burn the bookshop down. If you don't like a book, read another book. If you start reading a book and you decide you don't like it, nobody is telling you to finish it.


(I think someone may have posted this here already, apologies if this is redundant. And no, this comment is not directly about feminism, but I still think it's relevant. And no I am not comparing feminists to jihadis.)
usw
I agree with you about self moderation, it does work very often. But chloellkescats' perception of this forum was basically mine before I registered, and while I think it makes things look much worse than they actually are (the "issue" is either superficial or very localized), I can't help wishing the whole forum would be as soothing and civilian as...let's say the video synthesis subarea smile
TheEngineer
TheBradster wrote:
usw wrote:
eek! having a look at TheEngineer's posts history eek!

And what did you find, pray tell?
I had a quick check myself, and from what I can tell, TheEngineer:

* Has never posted pornographic material;
* Has not excessively used gender-specific pronouns;
* Participates in many groups and the majority of his posts are about modules and synthesis in general.
* Seems to treat other members with respect.

He* has participated in some threads about sexism, and as far as I can tell, has come with his heartfelt opinion. I do not necessarily agree with him, but we don't all have to agree, do we?

One of his posts *may* be considered slightly trollish, or provocative, but other than that I feel he has pursued a more or less civil discourse.

Is this good enough reason to ban him?

* No reason to assume gender here, but I am guessing TheEngineer is male.


Thank you, someone with some sense. I didn't know I would be such a topic of conversation. I have always treated everyone here with respect. The only person that has ever been an issue was NB where you see in the previous feminist thread had been antagonizing and instigating. I made a few trollish remarks out of pure sarcasm for how ridiculous all this truly is. If you want my personal opinion, it's that we all should have a common respect for one another, male, female, transgender alike. I choose not to participate in most of the off-topic discussions because I use the site as a tool and to learn from mostly about synthesis, which it has been a great resource. These types of conversations are just silly imo, like you're trying to solve world hunger on the internet. As someone said, this is sort of a man cave place, there is the "boys will be boys" attitude, and most women tend to realize that I feel. If they want to hang they have a choice and I don't see any instances where women have been directly targeted, harassed, or violated on the forum at all. There are other forums which are horrible displays of the use of foul language, pornography, sexism, racism, etc etc etc isms. This is a pretty quiet community in terms of those things. I tend to take the stance here of it is what it is, you make a choice what you participate in and if you don't like it don't participate. This thread is rather childish I will say and you would think people after how many different years of living in a multi-cultural diverse world would learn to be tolerant of each others intolerance. I have the up most respect for members of this community and their contributions. I do not need to see eye to eye with any of you on personal opinions or issues. We have a common ground and that's why I'm here and we are all here. You joined a site called "Muff Wiggler" that should of told you something to begin with, duh. Now you want to complain? Your arguments are truly laughable.

On the opposition though and to Mike. You do have members of this community that have invested the time and effort to helping with the community success. I think many of them have a vision of transformation and transcendence here into something more, a model synth community and site for education, intellect, and acceptance which could allow the growth of the community to a more prosperous community which may perpetuate greater opportunity not only for yourself, but for those of the community as well.

With the right leadership and some marketing and development work it is possible and may not be a bad thing. On the other hand, it will lead to constant censorship, and policing of the site, removal of off-topic forums, and generally piss off the majority of the people who posted in the poll on this thread. We all have a choice though no matter the direction and what happens. I will support the changes either way, because as I've said I am here to learn about synthesis and participate in the more technologically fused discussions here which I find stimulating. It's motherfucking bacon yo
Dr. Sketch-n-Etch
I have to say that I agree with TheEngineer's comments below.

I have a suggestion for how the mods/Mike can warn/threaten people who act in an inconsiderate manner without banning them. Use the little avatar subtitle for shaming. For example, if someone makes racist remarks, put "...is a fucking racist" in their avatar. The condition for having that epithet removed would be something like the offender initiating a thread with the title "So-and-so made racist remarks and he apologizes" or something.

P.S.: I know this is a terrible suggestion, but is it really???? hmmm.....
Sinamsis
The good doctor has blown my mind yet again. I think it's brilliant.

Also I think some people need to get some thicker skin. And others need to realize it's easy to talk shit on a forum. But if you behaved like that in real life you'd get kicked in the baby maker (gender neutral) real quick.
strettara
It is, because it would only lead to endless arguments (...) about who deserves or doesn't deserve the epithet. As would temporary bans, timeouts, etc etc. The only way things can really work long term is self-moderation.

I realise what I say has close to zero credibility on this forum, but really the way things are now is a good working compromise. The fact that the forum is still running after all this time with now close to 16,000 members, of whom only a minutely tiny minority really want any kind of change, testifies to that.

Anything else is just fried air.
strettara
Actually, if any such suggestion was ever implemented here, I'd leave immediately. That sort of self-satisfied naming and shaming bullshit, with virtual cops patrolling the threads for violations, goes totally against the spirit - as I perceive it - of the forum and I would never want to be associated with it in any way.

So go ahead. Two birds with one stone thumbs up
usw
This discussion is all about self moderation, and TheEngineer's last post goes in that direction as well. The thing is that when you say to someone "Excuse me Sir, I'm afraid you're stepping on my foot" you don't expect him to yell "Back off oppressor !".
Many underestimate the harassment scenes women have to endure more than often and the mockeries (at best) LGBTs still have to go thru, I can tell you these require a thick skin, sexist patterns are very familiar to us and connected to real life experiences, including devastating ones confused
ignatius
let's bring out the guillotine! line up the unbelievers and off w/their heads!!!

this thread.. jesus..

maybe we should lock it until after the weekend.. everyone can stew over the content for a while and maybe between now and then something will shake loose in our collective consciousness and we'll all feel better..

or perhaps it''ll just give you all a bit of time to go make some music or get drunk or something. applause

happy thanksgiving!
Sinamsis
Yeah dude. I've been following this between surgeries, but come the evening I'm going to be drinking or making some weird bleeps and bloops. But I sure as fuck won't be pondering the social injustices of Muff Wiggler.
soundwave106
usw wrote:
Don't mistake my position : I don't want everybody to share the same opinion, but any social interaction needs some safe and common ground, and saying that such attitudes put women and lgbt's off shouldn't be a surprise for anyone.


No, saying that some of this crass stuff puts *some* women and LGBTs off is not a surprise. It is also not a surprise that this stuff would offend *some* other people not on the left wing feminism rail as well. It is also not a surprise that some men would *also* offended by this.

It is also not a surprise that some women and LGBTs are *not* offended by this sort of thing. Perhaps this would surprise those who are currently making broad sweeping generalizations about what women get offended by. I would suggest that those with this belief have a lot to learn about the wide variety of cultures that exist out there.

How about other sensitive social triggers for people? On occasion, for instance, some from the sober side of the force, for instance, have criticized the threads with open use and advocacy of illegal / psychedelic drugs. Now, there is probably good reason to be sensitive of such concerns and certainly we don't want this place to become Bluelight With A Side of Synth, but should we now also ask everyone with a "psychedelic" avatar to remove it down? Should we NSFW all of the "most musical substance" type of threads? Should we get rid of the damn beer smiley too while we are at it? Guinness ftw!

That's really why "don't be a jerk" and "be mindful as much as possible" really is the best advice. Having a few NSFW threads to stuff some of the more crass stuff, and working with any member who is not comfortable with what is going on, really is the best policy.

Since people are really *continuing* to beat around a political subject, well, here's my opinion: with all the real issues going on with women, it is IMHO very damaging to the cause of feminism that one of 2014's Great Feminist "Triumphs" was Twitter-bullying a poor scientist who just helped land a damn spaceship on a comet for wearing a mildly inappropriate shirt for work (but one which IMHO is more or less in line with other sci-fi fantasy artwork of the past and present). Newsflash: the concept of exactly *what* type of commercialized female body depictions are sexist and what is not has frankly been a controversy *even within feminism* for as long as I can remember. Anyone who pretends otherwise frankly has not read a lot on the subject or followed the politics over the years.

It seems like many who claim to be a feminist these days not only have an absolute certainty of what imagery *all* women in their mind reject, it also seems to be the *sole focus*. This will be, in the long run, incredibly damaging to the cause of "feminism" in my opinion. There's real issues out there, folks. The recent systematic brush-asides of rape reports at UVA? Absolute real issue for feminism. Why, then, has so much so-called feminist rage and vitriol been on body sexualization issues, a contentious subject that I can guarantee you nobody can agree on the boundaries and definitions fully?

Basically the huge negative pushback against feminists for Shirtgate is what I would expect, if something like the PC police some posters want would be put in place. It's a good case study.
Matos
TheEngineer
I actually read through your posting history, and I wanted to apologize for the unfair targeting and vitriol directed towards you and your comments. Although I disagree on some of your view points, I thought you brought up valid and interesting questions about gender roles, religion and oppression, and the biology of the sexes. You were open and frank with your opinions, while being generally polite. Even at your "worse" I saw no hatred. I hope we all can continue to grow and challenge each other, and to embrace our differences and celebrate them. SlayerBadger!
PrimateSynthesis
senecio wrote:
Obviously, the answers to this pole that matter the most are those from women. Most of the guys on this forum (most, not all) could probably care less, because "Muffwiggler" does not offend them, or does not hint at excluding them through its gender biased sence of humor.


Then it also matters which Pole is asking the question. If it were Waclaw Sierpiński, wouldn't he be offended by your use of set theory? Because it seems as though it is mostly men, on a forum whose membership is mostly men, who are complaining about these supposed issues somehow related to its name. Which, embroidered on all our hearts with catgut, is never going to change anyway.

abstraktor wrote:
I tutor at a College - I teach electronic music as part of an audio engineering and production course. MW is a comprehensive knowledge resource which many students would find useful, however I do not feel comfortable with recommending it to learners, particularly female ones - because of the issues raised in this thread.


So let me see if I understand before I have an aneurism unnecessarily. You withhold a comprehensive knowledge resource from female students in particular, but the problem is that the forum is sexist?

What is more sexist than any of the desperate examples in this thread, is the repeated implication that a woman is incapable of deciding for herself what she finds objectionable. Perpetuating this Victorian notion that she is unable to deal with the indignities of the real world, ivory-tower eggheads and "social justice" bigots must explain her own feelings to her, about how she's being othered, objectified, or whatever. Robocop should shoot all them in the dick. That's my latest constructive solution, because you can't install fainting couches on a website.
Sinamsis
I don't know. I certainly see not bringing up muff wiggler to a student. Not because it is offensive or that females have to be sheltered, but for the fact that it is a liability. These days you have to be very careful with how you carry yourself in the professional environment. Saying muff wiggler to a woman could be grounds for a hostile work environment or sexual harassment. I know to some that may sound crazy. And to some I may sound sexist. But in my field you learn to cover your own ass at all times. And while I don't agree that it's particularly threatening, I don't think Id be discussing it with a female student as in abstraktor's case. Again, not saying it's right. But that's how it is.
Muff Wiggler
It really is a shame that the knowledge-for-profit crowd aren't able to use this awesome free resource to help buttress up their ivory towers. Life can be so unfair.
Sinamsis
Well played. And very valid point. Props to you for keeping it that way. And honestly for those who are seeking the knowledge it's readily available.

Fucking ivory towers.
Demi Jon
PrimateSynthesis wrote:
ivory-tower


Muff Wiggler wrote:
ivory towers


Sinamsis wrote:
ivory towers


Sorry, did this conversation just become a Fox News broadcast without my noticing?

I think most of us in this thread have been beginning to agree that a deeper commitment to considerate behaviour is the least we can do to improve the forum -- a forum which all of us care about.

Snarky, seeming anti-elitism just derails the conversation. Maybe that's your point -- you are tired of the arguing -- but I reckon that's the best way to keep the other side going, sorry.
Muff Wiggler
No seriously.

The people who wouldn't give me a formal education in electronic music because I didn't have FIFTY THOUSAND DOLLARS A YEAR TO GIVE THEM now lament that they are unable to use this resource because the name is too dodgy.

I really mean what I said: Life can be so unfair.
Sinamsis
I just wanted to say ivory towers. And I don't know what that has to do with Fox News. Further I think it's a commonly accepted term and while maybe carrying a mildly negative connotation depending on the usage I don't find it particularly inflammatory. Honestly it's a topic I've considered at great length as I'm finishing my training and debating going into private practice VS joining academia.

I do think that it's important to question these institutions and recognize they are by no means the end all be all of learning or achievement (honestly from my personal experience many seem to be the pinnacle of under-achievement). I think that's what Mike was alluding to, though I don't want to put words in his mouth. Ha and yes delivery was a bit sarcastic. But funny.
Sinamsis
Ha fifty a year?! Peanuts! My fiancé and I are looking at half a mill of debt between the two of us. Not to mention that for the past year and half I've been working for free. The system we have is a little fucked up. But it could be worse. My cousin in Greece, where education is completely socialized, finished grade school and after taking his examinations he was assigned to a fish farming school. He chose to go to a private business school because he had the means. But other folks don't have that luxury. That being said my folks finished med school there for free which is pretty sweet.

How did we get here from talking about the woman hating aspect of the forum?
Dr. Sketch-n-Etch
A couple more things:

1) I acknowledge (and, indeed, acknowledged) that my suggestion of avatar shaming was terrible. But maybe... (with apologies to Louis CK).

2) When my elder daughter was in the grade 9 in high school in 2010, I gave a Powerpoint lecture and demonstration of my modular to her science class. In the Powerpoint presentation, I did mention Muff Wiggler as a resource, but I must say that I was very circumspect about doing so, not only because of the name, but because I didn't want one of her classmates showing his or her prudish parents the pony porn, etc, and saying "my friend's dad told us about this website." This stuff doesn't bother me personally, and I'm not for one minute suggesting that it be removed or not posted, but it does render this site a bit radioactive for suggesting to students.

I should also mention that the only person who came up to me to ask about building circuits afterwards was a young woman.
dubonaire
soundwave106 wrote:
usw wrote:
Don't mistake my position : I don't want everybody to share the same opinion, but any social interaction needs some safe and common ground, and saying that such attitudes put women and lgbt's off shouldn't be a surprise for anyone.


No, saying that some of this crass stuff puts *some* women and LGBTs off is not a surprise. It is also not a surprise that this stuff would offend *some* other people not on the left wing feminism rail as well. It is also not a surprise that some men would *also* offended by this.

It is also not a surprise that some women and LGBTs are *not* offended by this sort of thing. Perhaps this would surprise those who are currently making broad sweeping generalizations about what women get offended by. I would suggest that those with this belief have a lot to learn about the wide variety of cultures that exist out there.

How about other sensitive social triggers for people? On occasion, for instance, some from the sober side of the force, for instance, have criticized the threads with open use and advocacy of illegal / psychedelic drugs. Now, there is probably good reason to be sensitive of such concerns and certainly we don't want this place to become Bluelight With A Side of Synth, but should we now also ask everyone with a "psychedelic" avatar to remove it down? Should we NSFW all of the "most musical substance" type of threads? Should we get rid of the damn beer smiley too while we are at it? Guinness ftw!

That's really why "don't be a jerk" and "be mindful as much as possible" really is the best advice. Having a few NSFW threads to stuff some of the more crass stuff, and working with any member who is not comfortable with what is going on, really is the best policy.

Since people are really *continuing* to beat around a political subject, well, here's my opinion: with all the real issues going on with women, it is IMHO very damaging to the cause of feminism that one of 2014's Great Feminist "Triumphs" was Twitter-bullying a poor scientist who just helped land a damn spaceship on a comet for wearing a mildly inappropriate shirt for work (but one which IMHO is more or less in line with other sci-fi fantasy artwork of the past and present). Newsflash: the concept of exactly *what* type of commercialized female body depictions are sexist and what is not has frankly been a controversy *even within feminism* for as long as I can remember. Anyone who pretends otherwise frankly has not read a lot on the subject or followed the politics over the years.

It seems like many who claim to be a feminist these days not only have an absolute certainty of what imagery *all* women in their mind reject, it also seems to be the *sole focus*. This will be, in the long run, incredibly damaging to the cause of "feminism" in my opinion. There's real issues out there, folks. The recent systematic brush-asides of rape reports at UVA? Absolute real issue for feminism. Why, then, has so much so-called feminist rage and vitriol been on body sexualization issues, a contentious subject that I can guarantee you nobody can agree on the boundaries and definitions fully?

Basically the huge negative pushback against feminists for Shirtgate is what I would expect, if something like the PC police some posters want would be put in place. It's a good case study.


Actually it was one of the mods that suggested "PC police", which is as simplistic as it is derogatory. I'm certainly not making broad sweeping statements. As is usually the case in these types of discussions a lot of people argue with what they think they read, not what they read, make belittling assumptions, use ad absurdum arguments and resort to aggressive bullying. All in the name of fiercely opposing a call for some considerations that might make it a mature, more welcoming, respectful forum.

I don't see the need for "crass stuff" on this forum. I had never previously been to some of the threads but as a result of this thread had a look. It's all pretty juvenile boy's stuff if you ask me. And what adds to the bad vibe is when anyone tries to have meaningful conversations about art or philosophy as it relates to music they are ridiculed by the same people who seem to want to keep this forum at Homer Simpson's level, including mods. It's Tea Party mentality.

Fine, if you guys want to replicate the juvenile fora on Reddit go ahead. I guess this is not the right place for me.
ignatius
south park comes on tonight. this pleases me.
Sinamsis
Haha yes! Oh boy I'm behind. But it's been a brilliant season.
rico loverde
ignatius wrote:
south park comes on tonight. this pleases me.
yea but no AHS seriously, i just don't get it
ignatius
rico loverde wrote:
ignatius wrote:
south park comes on tonight. this pleases me.
yea but no AHS seriously, i just don't get it


SP is a rerun... sigh. waah

last week's episode "cock magic" is worth watching twice though
Sinamsis
Dude I haven't eaten gluten since that other episode....
strettara
ignatius wrote:
rico loverde wrote:
ignatius wrote:
south park comes on tonight. this pleases me.
yea but no AHS seriously, i just don't get it


SP is a rerun... sigh. waah

last week's episode "cock magic" is worth watching twice though


Cock Magic was South Park back to its brilliant high standard, some episodes have been disappointing recently. Randy Marsh always adds something to the mix.

dubonaire wrote:
Actually it was one of the mods that suggested "PC police", which is as simplistic as it is derogatory. I'm certainly not making broad sweeping statements. As is usually the case in these types of discussions a lot of people argue with what they think they read, not what they read, make belittling assumptions, use ad absurdum arguments and resort to aggressive bullying. All in the name of fiercely opposing a call for some considerations that might make it a mature, more welcoming, respectful forum.

I don't see the need for "crass stuff" on this forum. I had never previously been to some of the threads but as a result of this thread had a look. It's all pretty juvenile boy's stuff if you ask me. And what adds to the bad vibe is when anyone tries to have meaningful conversations about art or philosophy as it relates to music they are ridiculed by the same people who seem to want to keep this forum at Homer Simpson's level, including mods. It's Tea Party mentality.

Fine, if you guys want to replicate the juvenile fora on Reddit go ahead. I guess this is not the right place for me.


First off, the belittling assumption is that someone who disagrees with you does so because he (or she...) hasn't read or has failed to understand what you wrote.

Second, reductio is as well-established and valid a rhetorical technique as any; it's not a mean trick, but an essential logical tool. Without reductio, half of mathematics probably wouldn't exist (the most famous such argument is Euclid's (as I recall...) proof that the square root of two is an irrational number). Philosophy would be crippled without it.

OK, third (I hate bullet lists, but really): someone disagreeing with you and expressing that disagreement strongly is not the same thing as bullying. Here I have to rely on my memories of being constantly bullied at school, but I'm pretty sure I'm right about this. Others have played the bully card on this forum and - big fucking surprise - they often turned out to be the biggest bullies themselves. However.

Fourth: the people (bullies, dishonest arguers, etc.) who are perpetuating or arguing for the perpetuation of a sweaty jockstrap atmosphere here, are the very ones who used the same methods in the modular music thread. Well that's strange, because, quite to the contrary, I recall you pm'ing me several times to agree with me in my contention that Messaien is not the standard by which all forms of music should be judged. But let's not open that up again.

Fifth (...): let me see if I understand your last point. The forum is no longer the place for you because bad things happen in a part of it you never visit and in fact never were even aware of until this thread popped up? I'm sorry, how is anyone supposed to take this seriously? You want to be made to feel welcome by changing things that don't even affect you? The "bad vibe" of those threads has somehow permeated the entire forum... even among people who never read them?

Finally - the forum is welcoming enough to have - as I pointed out elsewhere - 16000 members who never seem to get their panties in an uproar about how unwelcoming it is.

So - to use a cheap rhetorical trick - what was your point again, exactly?
Dr. Sketch-n-Etch
strettara wrote:
Fourth: the people (bullies, dishonest arguers, etc.) who are perpetuating or arguing for the perpetuation of a sweaty jockstrap atmosphere here, are the very ones who used the same methods in the modular music thread. Well that's strange, because, quite to the contrary, I recall you pm'ing me several times to agree with me in my contention that Messaien is not the standard by which all forms of music should be judged. But let's not open that up again.


It's spelled M-E-S-S-I-A-E-N, and it is indeed the standard by which all forms of music should (and, indeed, are) judged. All your arguments are obviously therefore completely invalid.

Have a nice day.
strettara
Dr. Sketch-n-Etch wrote:
strettara wrote:
Fourth: the people (bullies, dishonest arguers, etc.) who are perpetuating or arguing for the perpetuation of a sweaty jockstrap atmosphere here, are the very ones who used the same methods in the modular music thread. Well that's strange, because, quite to the contrary, I recall you pm'ing me several times to agree with me in my contention that Messaien is not the standard by which all forms of music should be judged. But let's not open that up again.


It's spelled M-E-S-S-I-A-E-N, and it is indeed the standard by which all forms of music should (and, indeed, are) judged. All your arguments are obviously therefore completely invalid.

Have a nice day.


I'll spell it any way I want to lol
Vsyevolod
Dr. Sketch-n-Etch wrote:
It's spelled M-E-S-S-I-A-E-N, and it is indeed the standard by which all forms of music should (and, indeed, are) judged. All your arguments are obviously therefore completely invalid.

Have a nice day.


I think this is the only time I've fully agreed with the good Doctor.

Stephen




.
Dr. Sketch-n-Etch
If you don't believe me, give this a try:

strettara
OK ok, it's a fair cop lol

Actually, I love Messiaen (what I know), but Vingt Regards does drag a bit, be honest.
dubonaire
strettara wrote:
I recall you pm'ing me several times to agree with me in my contention that Messaien is not the standard by which all forms of music should be judged. But let's not open that up again.


You recall wrongly , the PM was about asians and spirituality, and you PM'd me first.

I just wanted to set that straight, but apart from that I'm not going to waste any more time engaging with your personality problem.
strettara
Ad hominem, on the other hand, is universally recognised as a weak debating technique.
dubonaire
I'm not using it as a debating technique, I saying that so you understand why I won't further discuss anything with you.
ignatius
fishsticks
strettara
dubonaire wrote:
I'm not using it as a debating technique, I saying that so you understand why I won't further discuss anything with you.


Really? Well at least I know who you are now. What a disappointment.
Adminius
Just (re)read this thread from beginning to end.

The antagonist who posted "there are not enough dicks in this thread" is demonstrably wrong. There are evidently too many dicks in this thread, mostly engaged in expressing their own take on political correctness and perceived sexism.

Here's my tuppenceworth:

If you can't stand the heat, stop stirring the bloody pot and fuck off out of the kitchen.

OK! I'm a dick. Deal with it!
Sinamsis
ignatius wrote:
fishsticks


Dude I heard Kanye West likes fishsticks.
Sinamsis
Oh and I'm thankful for Muff Wiggler, South Park and never ending cyclic arguments. Gobble gobble.
strettara
Well it seems time for a recipe yet again (no cilantro though); this is really simple and one of my dogter's favourites. Total cooking time - ten minutes.

So... you need gnocchi, gorgonzola, cooking cream and shelled walnuts.

Fragment the walnuts with the back of a large serving spoon, don't grind them to death. Melt and blend the gorgonzola with the cream and add the walnuts when it's all melted together. Add some black pepper to taste. Allow it to heat up, then turn it off (you really only need to warm it up). It should be creamy and white.

Throw the gnocchi into boiling salted water, fish them out when they rise and serve them with the sauce.

I recommend using Tyrolese spinach gnocchi, but ordinary gnocchi work well too.

PS - I wish I had had the guts to say what Adminius said, but I totally agree. Long live consideration. Fuck the police.

Meanwhile, enjoy your delicious Gnocchi alla gorgonzola e noci with a nice Sangiovese.
usw
The plot thickens meh
Dave Kendall
usw wrote:
The plot thickens meh


But does the sauce?
And why no Cilantro (ahem.... Coriander) ?

cheers,
D
Sinamsis
I half wanted to say because cilantros gross hoping to start an argument over herbs and spices but I will resist the temptation. And I actually don't mind cilantro. But I might consider a little nutmeg. And garlic. That's a similar recipe to my Alfredo (except I use Parmesan and Romano and don't put nuts). The pinch of nutmeg takes it to the next level. Oh and some lemon juice.
strettara
We can argue about the nutmeg if you like, I'm totally up for that.
Joe.
Sinamsis wrote:
Oh and some lemon juice.

Started adding a very small amount of grated lemon-rind to my Ravioli fillings, took them to the next level (Especially Ricotta+ tiny fried smoked-turkey bits and a little Parmesan).

Doesn't work in cannelloni filling mix though for some reason. I thought it might be because the baking process screws up lemon, but a bit of lemon-rind makes a HUGE difference to my Blueberry muffin mix, so there must be something else going on seriously, i just don't get it
Joe.
Dammit edit button Dead Banana

Obviously the cannelloni filling is a ricotta/spinach/parmesan mix. is it something to do with the spinach?
Vsyevolod
No edit button = Transparency in recipes.

Welcome to Muff's 2.0

Stephen




.
strettara
LoFi Junglist wrote:
Dammit edit button Dead Banana

Obviously the cannelloni filling is a ricotta/spinach/parmesan mix. is it something to do with the spinach?


Presumably it's something to do with the way you fill her up.
Sinamsis
No!!!!! We were being so sensitive and PC!!!! AHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!

MY ASS IS BLEEDING MY ASS IS BLEEDING MY ASS IS BLEEDING MY ASS IS BLEEDING MY ASS IS BLEEDING
sduck
Could we give this thread a rest? If you have something off topic to add, do it elsewhere. Thank you!
extra testicle
i think a lot of the people that post a lot, conversationally, probably don't get how the writing looks when you come across it all on a google search weeks, months, years later, searching for information it's more like a bad sitcom.



i doubt many people are "offended" by what they read, but when they read enough of it sprinkled all over with no moderator comment on it, it looks like that is acceptable behavior in the community. so you'd get this:



moderators commenting would be a form of censorship, but not saying anything encourages things in another direction as well.

having different levels of acceptable speech in different parts of the forum doesn't have to be about censorship, but about having goals and intent of what you want those sub forums to be about and the kind of discussions you want to cultivate. all those other "offensive" forums that people bring up are sub forums of mostly innocuous forums.

sduck (sorry btw) wrote something really nice and interesting a few pages back and tbh, i think just making that kind of sentiment more clear in context to people reading would make people feel more welcome. it changed my perception, at least.

(lighthearted) thread tags might work. people that like the drama and debate would probably get drawn to them and people looking for modular talk would have an easier more fun time exploring. i would like to know any thread that uses meme images so i can avoid it. lol ...all this vs that threads of any kind...

(i don't think people coming here for the modular want to get sucked into a debate about stuff like this...tbh, this place seems to have gotten more about tangled arguments than tangled patch cords...)

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/7587780.stm lol
thispoison
I know what you mean, it's a bit too much on a Modular forum.

However, as an example......

When you say "so you'd get this"...... and then show a cartoon which someone nursing a parent with Alzheimers takes great personal offence to, what exactly should a Moderator do?

And who would ever want to be a Moderator in such an instance?

My guess is the very social warriors who live to take offence on behalf of others.

It's heavy.
dubonaire
thispoison wrote:
My guess is the very social warriors who live to take offence on behalf of others.

It's heavy.


This, along with some other probably obvious reasons is why I stopped participating in this thread. I tried to engage in a decent conversation about a general tone which I thought was working against a more inclusive forum and people drop me into some kind of moral crusader bucket as "a social warrior living to take offence on behalf of others" and a member of "PC police/brigade". I'm actually nothing of the sort. But even the childish and snarky posts on this thread were left to run long enough to shut the discussion down before a moderator stepped in. It's way too simplistic, disingenuous and downright aggressive to shut people down on this issue the way it happened here, all in the name of some kind of war against censorship, which is already tolerated when it comes to politics and misrepresents what censorship is anyway.

Those living in the muffwiggler bubble might not be aware of the considerable chatter going on outside this forum about the nature of muffwiggler. But it seems to me there is a core group of muffwiggler diehards that don't care about that as they are happy with the status quo. It works for them.

It's not about wanting to eliminate anything that could remotely be construed as offensive (e.g. gender specific pronouns), it's about making the place feel welcoming to most people, but it seems to me not enough of the vocal power centre on this forum want that.
Joe.
dubonaire wrote:
I stopped participating in this thread


Me too! lets continue posting about how we've stopped posting, it's much more entertaining then beating a dead horse thumbs up
dubonaire
LoFi Junglist wrote:
dubonaire wrote:
I stopped participating in this thread


Me too! lets continue posting about how we've stopped posting, it's much more entertaining then beating a dead horse thumbs up


I think it's really clever how you snidely picked me up on this. It's so hard to be a sarcastic smart arse on a forum. It takes real skill to prove my point that way, well done.
Hermetech Mastering
dubonaire wrote:
thispoison wrote:
My guess is the very social warriors who live to take offence on behalf of others.

It's heavy.


This, along with some other probably obvious reasons is why I stopped participating in this thread. I tried to engage in a decent conversation about a general tone which I thought was working against a more inclusive forum and people drop me into some kind of moral crusader bucket as "a social warrior living to take offence on behalf of others" and a member of "PC police/brigade". I'm actually nothing of the sort. But even the childish and snarky posts on this thread were left to run long enough to shut the discussion down before a moderator stepped in. It's way too simplistic, disingenuous and downright aggressive to shut people down on this issue the way it happened here, all in the name of some kind of war against censorship, which is already tolerated when it comes to politics and misrepresents what censorship is anyway.

Those living in the muffwiggler bubble might not be aware of the considerable chatter going on outside this forum about the nature of muffwiggler. But it seems to me there is a core group of muffwiggler diehards that don't care about that as they are happy with the status quo. It works for them.

It's not about wanting to eliminate anything that could remotely be construed as offensive (e.g. gender specific pronouns), it's about making the place feel welcoming to most people, but it seems to me not enough of the vocal power centre on this forum want that.


hear hear. hate all the frat boy shit that this place has become.
Hermetech Mastering
would also like to apologise for my part in it back in the day.
strettara
It's pretty awful really. Pretty awful. To be honest.
bunnycat
If the name "Muff Wiggler" didn't already make it very clear that the majority of people on this forum don't think/care about sexism or misogyny (or even think they exist), then this thread sure took care of any remaining ambiguity surrounding the issue.

Bonus points for attempting to explain how it's actually not offensive and then finishing by saying "but I honestly don't care if it is."

This pretty much sums it up, right here:



"As if it gives them certain rights."

It only gives them rights if the people unconsciously standing on their necks decide to stop making smug, entitled faces and notice they are actually excluding and silencing a lot of other people. People who would have a lot to contribute to creatively working with and discussing analog synths on the world's MAIN forum for doing so.

And you're right: as someone blindly flouting and benefiting from male privilege (and yes, women who just roll their eyes and help to uphold male privilege are included here) you are in the majority! Congratulations! What do you win??? This: you will never be forced to give a second thought to those people who never even participate in the synth community (here and elsewhere) because it is so clear to them that they are not welcome as they are (and have no intention of changing just to fit in).

Your loss.
Matos
Yeah! My ignore list was getting lonely. And.....gone.
ignatius
never mind that there's 6 months of missing posts because of the hack. lol.

i explained the name to a woman and her partner in the shop last week. she smiled and said "i'm down. I'm down with this weirdness".

that's more or less the response i've gotten from every single person who's asked.

hey mike thanks for all your hardwork, sleepless nights and financial pangs getting the forum back up.. you sexist misogyny loving fuckwhit.
cretaceousear
But Bunnycat - well timed intervention there -
a) Stephen Fry is gay so he's allowed to make those statements
b) Why not approach the Taliban to advise on approved thinking guidelines

or.. hang out and contribute seriously, i just don't get it
negativspace
I've been saying what amounts to exactly that quote by Mr. Fry for going on two decades now... dating back to high school and the extreme shift toward "political correctness" in the '90s.

"I'm offended" was and is more often than not a bullying tactic, a passive-aggressive strategy for controlling the behavior or free expression of others. It's predicated on the belief that your right to go through your day without offense trumps everyone else's right to speak their mind. It's a despicable and fundamentally cowardly act.

BunnyCat, if you've managed to be here for 3 years and all you've offered by way of contribution is a large self-righteous helping of the above, we're going to be just fine without you.
n_m
bunnycat wrote:
(...) people unconsciously standing on their necks decide to stop making smug, entitled faces and notice they are actually excluding and silencing a lot of other people. People who would have a lot to contribute to creatively working with and discussing analog synths on the world's MAIN forum for doing so.
(...) Your loss.


Described yourself quite well. I would say it fits like a glove, even.
soundwave106
bunnycat wrote:
People who would have a lot to contribute to creatively working with and discussing analog synths on the world's MAIN forum for doing so.


No, by post volume I imagine that would be, er, Gearslutz. lol

I would love to see the IP address(es) behind the few people (or even one person) who seem to be droning on about "woe Muffwiggler is sexist". Because, literally no other synth forum (even Gearslutz) has gotten this sort of tirade, a tirade that has ended up posted in several strange random places on the Interwebs.

I would love to know the *real* grudge behind whoever this is, but this person is probably too chicken shit to admit what it is. lol

If you are actually connected with the hacker, congratulations, you have damaged the synth community *far* more than any silly name has. If this is the case, I hope you feel proud of yourself.
sduck
It'd probably be good to wait and see if the missing chunk of posts from the last year reappears here, reread all that, and then restart this stupid thread if it really needs restarting. Otherwise it's just another trollfest like last time.
morphic
sduck wrote:
It'd probably be good to wait and see if the missing chunk of posts from the last year reappears here, reread all that, and then restart this stupid thread if it really needs restarting. Otherwise it's just another trollfest like last time.


enough said we're not worthy
Muff Wiggler
I think it's fine for anyone to share their perspective and opinion, even when it's not what we want to hear. That's why this thread is here and why I've kept it open all these years.

We may not like some opinions, or more specifically we may not like how they are presented, but we don't have to lash out - let's try to be more respectful of dissent, even if it is childish, arrogant or fascist. There's things about this community that put some people off, that's unfortunate and it's probably not going to change, but we can always take the higher road and accept people's differences with an open and forgiving mind.

All comments and perspectives are solicited here, that's what this thread is about - even if only to serve as an example of the breadth of perception and experience that is the human condition.

Also, it pleases me that we allow all perspectives to be presented and don't censor the opinions that we don't like - this is a strong contrast to the infamous Brown University "Blue Stockings" blog which has an editorial policy of removing all comments that don't support their spin..... even when those comments come from other women expressing their opinions and experience. Wtf kind of feminism is that?
strettara
bunnycat wrote:
standing on their necks


d'oh! lol lol lol
Jaaky
I find the use of the word "douche" offensive. Much more offensive then "muffwigler".
PrimateSynthesis
strettara wrote:
bunnycat wrote:
standing on their necks


d'oh! lol lol lol



There is nothing funny about violins against women.


strettara
My bad.
Holti
Muff Wiggler wrote:

yeah, sorry.
It's Wuff Miggler.
I'm german. Say it with a german accent. The "Wuff" part sounds more like "Woof".

Wuff Heinrich Miggler. That's me.


Oh, I'm really shocked, for I'm also german!
It's not PC to make jokes 'bout Dzerman Aczents!!!
w00t
PK808370
I don't even see how this is non-pc. I also think someone would have to try very hard to be offended by it.

There may be some double entendre with the name of the site, but it's not demeaning to any specific group. The name of a sex act, if that's what this is construed to be, is not offensive on its own. That would be like being offended by the word "intercourse", which is just silly, because there is no inherent misogyny or other bias in it. There are words that could/would be offensive, but Muff Wiggler is not on that list.

Obviously, this is just my opinion, but like I said earlier, someone would have to really want to be offended for this to bother them. And... If that's the demographic that you're offending, I suggest you keep the name for the rest of our enjoyment.
Eric the Red
I think to be offended by the name is silly. When I first heard of the name Muff Wiggler all I could think of was Coisin It from the Addams Family dancing..
Freemasonofsound
My wife calls it "Titi Wiggler" Miley Cyrus
haricots
Is she French?
Hermetech Mastering
It's more embarrassing than offensive, for me. I cringe every time I have to say or type it.
Jaspo
Hermetech Mastering wrote:
It's more embarrassing than offensive, for me. I cringe every time I have to say or type it.

Couldn't agree more. It is more infantile than offensive.
strettara
Hermetech Mastering wrote:
I cringe every time I have to say or type it.


Heaven forbid we should fail to take ourselves seriously.
strettara
strettara wrote:
Hermetech Mastering wrote:
I cringe every time I have to say or type it.


Heaven forbid we should ever fail to take ourselves seriously.
strettara
woops! lol lol lol
listentoaheartbeat
This page has too much Dutch Engstrom.
strettara
Yeah, I hit quote instead of edit. Can't believe this is even a topic anymore, tbh.
Muff Wiggler
drip.feed
I just wish I could wear the t-shirt in work. Ditto for Frequency Central tees. waah
Hermetech Mastering
Muff Wiggler wrote:


That made me laugh! cool
Dr. Sketch-n-Etch
Bearded hipsters with scarves offend me. I hope he chokes on his fucking latte.
strettara
He's no hipster with a haircut like that.
Sinamsis
strettara wrote:
He's no hipster with a haircut like that.


With that chest plate and scarf I bet to differ.
Sinamsis
*beg... damn this not being able to edit
Sandrine
Ha ha! This should be on Doug Stanhope's comedy podcast!

I'm a girl, and I love it! (I wiggle mine often, usually to powerful Arps though)
waltersxgreg
If t doesnt offend or create questions its not hip.
funeralcake
The very idea that anyone could find something to be offended by in the name curdles my stomach contents. Everyone's offended by everything these days, though, aren't they? Originally, I typed this long-winded diatribe about everything that's wrong with that sort of mentality, but I imagine I'd mostly just be preaching to the choir. It seemed a bit over-zealous and unnecessary, not to mention self-indulgent. fap fap fap...

So, to cut a long short, I'm pretty indifferent to the name, but insecure people who try to bury their own narcissism and self-loathing under a mountain of forced or feigned concern and moral absolutes really, really annoy me. It's probably because I used to be the exact same way, and seeing that side of my (only very slightly) younger self in these people makes me feel incredibly embarrassed.
FatBob
I could not agree more.

Thank you Funeralcake - you have put my many hours of teeth grinding on this subject in to a very concise paragraph.
PeteJames
I think Stephen Fry summed it up nicely:

“It's now very common to hear people say, 'I'm rather offended by that.' As if that gives them certain rights. It's actually nothing more... than a whine. 'I find that offensive.' It has no meaning; it has no purpose; it has no reason to be respected as a phrase. 'I am offended by that.' Well, so fucking what."
sduck
If you've read this thread, you'll find that quote posted more than once before this.
SB-SIX
Muff translates to "Mof" in dutch, and wiggler as "wiebelaar". So translated to my native language, it translates to someone who wobbles german people
Leverkusen
Indeed, I sometimes feel that I could need a little wobble to get everything moved back in its place...nuts
Puzzler
sduck wrote:
If you've read this thread, you'll find that quote posted more than once before this.


And its still a completely stupid quote, because it not just tries to ignore society and its benefits, but also denies social responsibility in ones behaviour. This is what you call ignorance.
But its also too obvious that only a very small amount of people in this world will actually understand the meaning of these sentences. Miley Cyrus
Joe.
Puzzler wrote:
sduck wrote:
If you've read this thread, you'll find that quote posted more than once before this.


And its still a completely stupid quote, because it not just tries to ignore society and its benefits, but also denies social responsibility in ones behaviour. This is what you call ignorance.
But its also too obvious that only a very small amount of people in this world will actually understand the meaning of these sentences. Miley Cyrus


Ignoring/denying something is obstinence, not ignorance. please change, as it makes it hard to understand the meaning of your sentences when you use words out of context.
Puzzler
Being obstinate here is only the result which wants to be achieved by the author. Contempting the other ones sentence by saying "It has no meaning; it has no purpose; it has no reason to be respected as a phrase", this makes it ignorant. Yet even the ingorance is just the incapability of the author to understand why things might offend people or even people just might feel offended in this society. This is what you call empathy.

But at least you tried LoFi Junglist. And you want to tell anything about "changing"?
AlanP
What is offensive depends on the culture of the time. A woman going around in a bikini swimming suit would have been extremely offensive in Victorian times. Slave traders would have found the idea of slavery being outlawed offensive.

Sometimes, people need to be offended. If nothing else, it makes them question WHY they find the subject in question offensive, and whether their views have a basis in fact.
slovo
Christ, ppl are still talking about this thread? It's like 100 years old (defintely a fact)!
leeski
not this shit again Flamey Russian Roulette Bop! Driving BOOM!
artistcalled6
No...but the IT department was curious as to why I was on a site with such a name so much...

they all have modular synths now
JohnLRice
artistcalled6 wrote:
No...but the IT department was curious as to why I was on a site with such a name so much...

they all have modular synths now
thumbs up
coyoteous
Does muff still have his naked girlie blog?

Looked for it awhile back and couldn't find anything... dang it.

Anyway, MF is no more offensive than gear slutz, I suppose.

Neither are going to win any awards for female inclusiveness based on name or behavior... as most of the internet on the latter count.

Most of the world is openly offensive these days, anyway.
JohnLRice
coyoteous wrote:
Most of the world is openly offensive these days, anyway.
Or rather 'Most of the world is openly offended these days'
coyoteous
JohnLRice wrote:
coyoteous wrote:
Most of the world is openly offensive these days, anyway.

Or rather 'Most of the world is openly offended these days'

I'll stick with what I wrote, thanks.

Yeah, a lot of it is offended, too.

Most ironically are those offenders offended by the offended... like people who complain about complaining.

Primates, especially with tools, can be entertaining, annoying and sometimes dangerous.

But, we loves them shiny modules.
JohnLRice
coyoteous wrote:
JohnLRice wrote:
coyoteous wrote:
Most of the world is openly offensive these days, anyway.

Or rather 'Most of the world is openly offended these days'

I'll stick with what I wrote, thanks.
Wasn't trying to change what you were saying, it's just what I'm saying. Mr. Green
ignatius
jesus christ go tell it on a mountain already.
coyoteous
JohnLRice wrote:
coyoteous wrote:
JohnLRice wrote:
coyoteous wrote:
Most of the world is openly offensive these days, anyway.

Or rather 'Most of the world is openly offended these days'

I'll stick with what I wrote, thanks.

Wasn't trying to change what you were saying, it's just what I'm saying. Mr. Green

Well, I was rather offended by "rather," (Dan Rather? smile... not really!

Maybe you remember the modular forum before this one?

It had a pretty generic name... not a yahoo group or the gas station.

I found the name again, looked up some stuff on the archive.org wayback machine, and then forgot what the name was.

Anyways, I declare the muffwiggler name and its connotes properly defended.
coyoteous
ignatius wrote:
jesus christ go tell it on a mountain already.

Exactly... thanks for proving one of my points.

You're boobs on ai too, right?
JohnLRice
coyoteous wrote:
Maybe you remember the modular forum before this one?

It had a pretty generic name... not a yahoo group or the gas station.

I found the name again, looked up some stuff on the archive.org wayback machine, and then forgot what the name was.
Yeah, I liked that forum a lot, it was actually my favorite until I found Muffs. I think most of the people from these slowley moved over to Muff's and the forum owner shut it down. I still feel bad about that, he was a good guy and did a good job with the forum.

Was it just called "Modular Synth" or something like that? hmmm.....
coyoteous
Yes, thanks!

Modularsynth, but not Blacet's modularsynth.com timecapsule... modularsynth.net!

Stick that in ur wayback machine and smoke it!

Honestly, going back to the gas station is more fun... but this was a missing link for me.

Remember, offensive is the new cool, muthafukkas!
AusDisciple
Newb here. I just read how the name came about and I can easily picture how the sudden blurting out of Muff Wiggler in a band rehearsal would have everyone in stitches!! hihi

I'm another who is often deliberately non PC. This PC nonsense has gotten WAY out of hand and the skin on some people is no doubt thinner than that of a rice pudding.

BTW - I like rice puddings.
PrimateSynthesis
I agree. Rice pudding is the opposite of cilantro cool
strettara
One day, when all the cilantro is just a faded memory, like a token of childhood dangling from a rusted zimmer frame in some deserted corridor... you will munch and mumble rice pudding between your toothless gums.

But. Is that how you want to live?
ehg
Without wanting to resurrect the long & detailed discussion everyone's gone through above, having only just seen this thread (and with the poll now closed) I wanted to add a quick comment.

I find the name less offensive than I do embarrassing: the adolescent humour it suggests has prevented me from telling people about the forum on several occasions. A drop in the ocean overall, I guess, but in my personal experience the way the forum brands & represents itself has been a barrier to expanding the community which uses it.

I don't think the forum is a hive of misogyny by any means (I actually think it's remarkably well-behaved, relatively speaking) but it certainly reflects a scene which is predominately male and fairly insular. I think it's easy to underestimate just how difficult it can be for people who have not traditionally had a place in scenes like this to feel fully welcome. I hope everyone would agree that seeing more women (and for that matter people of colour, disabled people, or any other under-represented group) getting involved with modular synths is a good thing.

The question then (for me at least) is not just "is the name offensive?" but whether we're doing enough to actively welcome people into the community. On that point, I certainly think the name is unhelpful.
tau_seti
I agree about the adolescent humor and attitude in the forum. The name isn't a problem for me and has become synonymous with the forum, but I'm afraid that some rules about avatars and general behavior would be for the better. There is a long tradition of women in synth and for us to contribute to making it a boys club is a real shame. We should remember that we are by far the #1 site for modular synthesis in the world. Thus we do have a bit of a mission to be more welcoming.
Hermetech Mastering
Agree wholeheartedly with the last two posts above.
Muff Wiggler
Hermetech Mastering wrote:
Agree wholeheartedly with the last two posts above.


lol. we know. you've made that extremely clear.

do a trick already. do a trick!
shamann
SB-SIX wrote:
Muff translates to "Mof" in dutch, and wiggler as "wiebelaar". So translated to my native language, it translates to someone who wobbles german people


That's perfect.

Welcome to Mof Wiebelaar. Wobbling Germans since 2006.
Hermetech Mastering
Muff Wiggler wrote:
Hermetech Mastering wrote:
Agree wholeheartedly with the last two posts above.


lol. we know. you've made that extremely clear.

do a trick already. do a trick!


Enjoy the show!
Samuron
shamann wrote:
SB-SIX wrote:
Muff translates to "Mof" in dutch, and wiggler as "wiebelaar". So translated to my native language, it translates to someone who wobbles german people


That's perfect.

Welcome to Mof Wiebelaar. Wobbling Germans since 2006.

Brings a whole new meaning to "kraut-rock".
Vsyevolod
and an even worse meaning to Sauerkraut...

Stephen




.
shreddoggie
@Mike - Have you thought of changing your name to Mr. Muff Wiggler? Your fame would skyrocket and no one could be offended by you using your real name now could they?

Seriously I thought a muff was a nickname from modular guys referring to a knob e.g. wiggle the cutoff muff for a wah wah effect - muff - know... its a slippery slope.
Mirolab
From the Dictionary:

ear·muffs. [ˈirˌməfs] NOUN
1.a pair of soft fabric coverings, connected by a band across the top of the head, that are worn over the ears to protect them from cold or noise.

wiggle. intransitive verb
1. to move to and fro with quick jerky or shaking motions

Muff Wiggler: NOUN
One who Wiggles people's Muffs, preferably with loud sonic vibrations created by various analog synthesis techniques, with the intent to induce a sense of joy, wonder, or amazement.


I think that any misconstruance of the meaning of these simple words, and offense felt by alternate interpretations is purely a corruption of one's own mind.

but I'm new here. ........... Mirolab.
cretaceousear
/\ /\ /\
should be on the front of the site !
thumbs up
oiseaux
Stupid names don't bother me; stupid people do.

(Actually I don't think the MW handle is stupid- I just wanted to say something clever...)

In my experience this forum is devoid of the terminally juvenile, spiteful, hateful, etc. (God- I can't think of enough negative adjectives!) people that seem to dominate most of the WWW nowadays.

Let's keep supporting ourselves with the sharing of knowledge and worry less about what we call ourselves!

screaming goo yo Wiggle on, wigglers! screaming goo yo
Phoolz
I feel bad that I never saw it. Guess I have an innocent mind
rayultine
Wouldn't any rock or electronic musician, man or woman, have as a first assumption that the muff in "muff wiggler" comes from the EH Big Muff? Even before joining the forum that's what I guessed.
Muff Wiggler
^^^^ you win the prize - yes!!

thank-you SlayerBadger!
rayultine
we need a *mic drop* emoticon.
empi
As I'm no native speaker I can hardly understand what's all this 'fuzz' about 'muff' and 'wiggling'. To my ears these words sound complete innocent, like for example "fondling a beaver"… Cheeky little things, eh ?


My old EH Microsynth & my beaver.
gnombient
When I found the site my first thought was of the EH Big Muff, but I can definitely see how someone might get the wrong idea.

"Muff Wiggler" does kinda sound like something one might have seen written in cursive or psychedelic lettering on a custom van back in the '70s (maybe with a Frazetta-style girl airbrushed on the side...)
henryo
I don't find it offensive at all - but my other half has given me a funny look when she's seen me reading posts on here before hihi
Shledge
I don't find it offensive. I just thought it originally came from your love of guitar pedals. Thankfully I wasn't exactly wrong when I read the actual reason. lol
DubRules
rayultine wrote:
Wouldn't any rock or electronic musician, man or woman, have as a first assumption that the muff in "muff wiggler" comes from the EH Big Muff? Even before joining the forum that's what I guessed.

This was my thought as well..
Nidopallium
Noob here.

I don't find the name is offensive because I know the root but I can see why others might. In an online world were women in technology can get treated so dreadfully, it would be easy for someone to assume this is the case here.
Shledge
DubRules wrote:
rayultine wrote:
Wouldn't any rock or electronic musician, man or woman, have as a first assumption that the muff in "muff wiggler" comes from the EH Big Muff? Even before joining the forum that's what I guessed.

This was my thought as well..


Not to mention the term "muff" is used to describe windshields for mics. It's even a name for an Irish town. razz

The name itself has no real negative connotation in most cases, especially outside the UK/Ireland area.
hsosdrum
Shledge wrote:


Not to mention the term "muff" is used to describe windshields for mics. It's even a name for an Irish town. razz


Not meaning to cause an uproar here (I'm a cat person myself), but the nickname used by boom operators for one of those fuzzy windscreens on a hand-held boom mic used at a film set is "dead kitten". eek!
hsosdrum
BTW, I'm not the least bit offended by the name "muff wiggler", but then, I'm pretty much un-offendable. If you're gonna get worked up about something, at least make it something that's important. A name like "muff wiggler" doesn't even crack the top 10,000 in my List Of Things In The World To Get Offended Over.
dubonaire
Robscorch
I love muff....
I love muffs...
which is it?
hmmm.....

Rasta-nana
importjingles
It is a shame that the largest and most valuable modular community online has this name. I am not personally offended by the name but, as someone else pointed out, it encourages juvenile behaviour. Behaviour which can be alienating and offensive and that I do have a problem with.
commodorejohn
Pshaw.
InteBra
You could change the name to Modular Wiggler and still keep the nice MW logo.
notmiserlouagain
InteBra wrote:
You could change the name to Modular Wiggler and still keep the nice MW logo.


Or change the name to Menstruation Wigger, be real offensive but keep the nice MW logo...

importjingles wrote:
I am not personally offended by the name but, as someone else pointed out, it encourages juvenile behaviour.

SlayerBadger!

Btw. Me myself, I´m mostly offended by stupidity (both my own and from others)...
slidearind
As someone stated above, personally, I don't find it offensive in any way, but this is the internet, where incredibly immature behaviour can lead to nasty behaviour.

Regardless, it's just a website name, if it's changed we'll all still find it.

And have there been any issues with the name?
PISS.EXE
Recently some of my friends refused to click a link i sent them from this site because they didn't believe me it was work safe but they're not synth people either.

Depends if the tumblr crew whining who will whine about anything really gets to you or not, if it was me, i wouldn't give a fuck, it's the internet
PISS.EXE
Muff Wiggler please make a poll option "I don't care either way but I don't want it to change"
importjingles
It tickled me when I first discovered it. The joke has long past worn off... so it's a bit tiring seeing it come up again and again (not just from newbs).
khyber
It's a silly name, not something to get bent out of shape about, but I find it discouraging that so many people aren't willing to have a serious discussion about the name and how if affects the community and its growth. They just circle back to the "I'm offended by people who are offended" sentiment and that vast echo chamber of ridicule/digging in.

Clearly none of these people have not exhibited at a convention or music meetup and had to go through the long tired monolog of "yeah Muffwigglers is this great community, no no it's not a porn site wait let me explain..."

Clearly none of these people have not had to deal with music stores and vendors and go through the same speech.

Clearly none of these people have had the IT department at their office ask what Muffwiggler.com is and why their the only one visiting it.
Kent
Sounds rough. How do you get by?
Paranormal Patroler
khyber wrote:
Clearly none of these people have had the IT department at their office ask what Muffwiggler.com is and why their the only one visiting it.


I never got this point or the issues people have with the NSFW part of the forum in general. People shouldn't be browsing music forums in the workplace to begin with, and if your work revolves around it, then by all means, explain the name to your co-workers.

Oh, and I have been in my fair share of conventions, and meetups with no issues with the MW monicker. So the personal story fallacy doesn't cut it. As this poll suggest the majority of people are fine with the name, so why does this keep coming back again and again?
Liddlepud
khyber wrote:
Clearly none of these people have not exhibited at a convention or music meetup and had to go through the long tired monolog of "yeah Muffwigglers is this great community, no no it's not a porn site wait let me explain..."


I had to give a Q&A at Dimensions Festival in Croatia a couple of weeks ago and had to go through the same thing with the female interviewer which then led on to a conversation about sexism in the synth/music technology world. It was interesting and I enjoyed it but I'd gone there thinking I was talking about modular synths, not having to justify the name of this website to an audience.
Liddlepud
[quote="Paranormal Patroler"]
khyber wrote:
As this poll suggest the majority of people are fine with the name


Do you know the gender of the people that have taken the poll?
Paranormal Patroler
[quote="Liddlepud"]
Paranormal Patroler wrote:
khyber wrote:
As this poll suggest the majority of people are fine with the name


Do you know the gender of the people that have taken the poll?


Forum members have voted anonymously on whether the forum name is an issue for the forum members. In addition this forum does not require of the forum member to specify their gender when signing up so I would avoid making claims on pseudo statistics.
slow_riot
It would be quite easy to move some of the pressure from this aspect of the site, just from reframing the way the discussion takes place.

Instead of focussing on who is taking offense, ask "is there a problem of accessibility to certain cultural groups in our society, and in what way does our community reflect that?" No need for drama from anyone.
narxistdan
Paranormal Patroler wrote:
As this poll suggest the majority of people are fine with the name


That's one way to look at it, another is that less than a third of those taking the poll feel unambiguously positive about the name.
thevegasnerve
Actually shocked the name offended anyone, never crossed my mind that it was offensive. But this forum is international which may complicate things. I think the forum is generally very well-mannered, you will
always have a few peeps stirring trouble.
narxistdan
slow_riot wrote:
It would be quite easy to move some of the pressure from this aspect of the site, just from reframing the way the discussion takes place.

Instead of focussing on who is taking offense, ask "is there a problem of accessibility to certain cultural groups in our society, and in what way does our community reflect that?" No need for drama from anyone.


Beautifully said, and the answer to your question is unambiguously yes. But for that conversational shift to happen, men would need to be willing to wrestle with how we contribute to patriarchy despite not believing ourselves to be sexist individuals.

That's a tough nut to crack, as evidenced by the selfishness and disregard for others at the heart of the conversation being had here by what I assume are wonderful, heart-centered, well-meaning, creative, loving individuals.
chvad
slow_riot wrote:
It would be quite easy to move some of the pressure from this aspect of the site, just from reframing the way the discussion takes place.

Instead of focussing on who is taking offense, ask "is there a problem of accessibility to certain cultural groups in our society, and in what way does our community reflect that?" No need for drama from anyone.


The answer is yes. You also can't please everyone. Ever. There is also no need to please everyone. The discussion revolves around the idea that we as a culture should abolish sexual innuendo in it's entirely as surely someone somewhere with some sensibility differing from yours will take offense. That's unavoidable and also this adversely affects the entire ZZ Top catalog which I cannot fathom nor want to imagine.
thevegasnerve
narxistdan wrote:
slow_riot wrote:
It would be quite easy to move some of the pressure from this aspect of the site, just from reframing the way the discussion takes place.

Instead of focussing on who is taking offense, ask "is there a problem of accessibility to certain cultural groups in our society, and in what way does our community reflect that?" No need for drama from anyone.


Beautifully said, and the answer to your question is unambiguously yes. But for that conversational shift to happen, men would need to be willing to wrestle with how we contribute to patriarchy despite not believing ourselves to be sexist individuals.

That's a tough nut to crack, as evidenced by the selfishness and disregard for others at the heart of the conversation being had here by what I assume are wonderful, heart-centered, well-meaning, creative, loving individuals.


And I think that we are having a discussion shows that some with indifference are trying to understand some people's unhappiness with the name. I am certainly sensitive to sexism but I rarely encounter discussions that have that context. Not sure what the solution is.
kindredlost
We could change the name to Majestic Wankers and get some of the other gender to sign up. We could keep the MW logo too. hihi
Paranormal Patroler
This is a rabbit hole. What should change next? Should the forum be policed more strictly? Should it lose the NSFW threads lest they offend or stir a problem? Do we ban Metasonix and their products because they have offensive names (good luck changing those)? There will always be something to debate.

For starters I like how the fact that this poll's results do not seem to matter, but if it were 30% saying "I find it offensive" there would be hell to pay. No, it must be privileged people who voted against the name change. For every story someone comes up with of how troublesome the name is, there is always a story of how someone found it great. Why does one have more importance than the other? Is this debate going to go on forever?
Paranormal Patroler
This is a rabbit hole. What should change next? Should the forum be policed more strictly? Should it lose the NSFW threads lest they offend or stir a problem? Do we ban Metasonix and their products because they have offensive names (good luck changing those)? There will always be something to debate. It bares consideration.

For starters I like how the fact that this poll's results do not seem to matter, but if it were 30% saying "I find it offensive" there would be hell to pay. No, it must be privileged people who voted against the name change. For every story someone comes up with of how troublesome the name is, there is always a story of how someone found it great. Why does one have more importance than the other?

slow_riot wrote:
"is there a problem of accessibility to certain cultural groups in our society, and in what way does our community reflect that?" No need for drama from anyone.


The forum is open for sign up for anyone over the age of 18 with access to the internet. Can we accept that as a given?

Based on the the thread we are discussing in and the posts of some participants above, it seems that that the name of the forum poses a problem for participation. If that is the case then the only group that it poses a problem to is by definition the group of people who "have an issue with the name of the forum and cannot participate because of it".

There is no cultural group or groups that have an issue with the name of the forum by default; unless one is racist/ sexist / ageist etc, in which case one believes that having a common characteristic with other people means you also share the same opinions / views / beliefs. Which I personally don't, I believe in individual opinions and majority votes (for better or worse).

I can also think of two other groups of people that have issue with the forum: people under 18 and people who want to discuss politics. I'm positive we will come up with more groups that feel excluded. I'm not being a smart-ass here, I'm trying to think based on your posed question, which is fair but subverts the question posed by the pole itself.
Hermetech Mastering
I know for a fact that lots of female modular users are not happy to participate here, I think that's more due to content than name, but the name certainly doesn't help. I like the debate, it's being calm and rational at the moment, which can only be good.
Joe.
Paranormal Patroler wrote:
There is no cultural group or groups that have an issue with the name of the forum by default; unless one is racist/ sexist / ageist etc, in which case one believes that having a common characteristic with other people means you also share the same opinions / views / beliefs. Which I personally don't, I believe in individual opinions and majority votes (for better or worse).


You can't dismiss the MW culture with reductionist nonsense like "a common characteristic with other people".

It's a common interest between people.

MW already attracts a pretty diverse crowd, because we're only held together by some pretty obscure interests. I would go far as to say MW couldn't agree on common shared music taste. A few jokes about beards, a few jokes about Ponytails. All I see when I go to meets are some pretty rich people, enjoying a pretty obscure hobby. Plenty of diversity, tolerating odd music choices, getting to know unusual people for a single common interest.

Whose to say that that type of supportive network isn't just as important as a social network that has planned gender inclusion, or whatever other hot topic is on the agenda?

Paranormal Patroler wrote:
For every story someone comes up with of how troublesome the name is, there is always a story of how someone found it great. Why does one have more importance than the other?


Like you said, the Poll results aren't worth much (as quantitative data it doesn't represent the community accurately). It is AWESOME for qualitative data though, and you don't need much of that to find trends in attitudes. Yes there's lots of anecdotes about how rad MW is or how somebody heard about it and was literal shaking, its all worth it for the few honest responses for or against.
Carrousel
The answer is 'No'. 'Muffwiggler' is not objectively offensive. You personally may choose to be offended by it, but that still does not make it offensive. A pile of faeces on a dinner table is offensive. Muffwiggler is not offensive.
Paranormal Patroler
LoFi Junglist wrote:
You can't dismiss the MW culture with reductionist nonsense like "a common characteristic with other people".

It's a common interest between people.


The question posed was "is there a problem of accessibility to certain cultural groups in our society, and in what way does our community reflect that?" and I contest the idea of cultural groups having specific opinions by default. For example, I do not buy that the opinion of any cultural group in regards to nomenclature will be unanimous. I was not talking about the MW culture, whatever that is, I was merely looking into the question.

Quote:
MW already attracts a pretty diverse crowd, because we're only held together by some pretty obscure interests. I would go far as to say MW couldn't agree on common shared music taste. A few jokes about beards, a few jokes about Ponytails. All I see when I go to meets are some pretty rich people, enjoying a pretty obscure hobby. Plenty of diversity, tolerating odd music choices, getting to know unusual people for a single common interest.

Whose to say that that type of supportive network isn't just as important as a social network that has planned gender inclusion, or whatever other hot topic is on the agenda?


Agreed.

Quote:
Like you said, the Poll results aren't worth much (as quantitative data it doesn't represent the community accurately). It is AWESOME for qualitative data though, and you don't need much of that to find trends in attitudes. Yes there's lots of anecdotes about how rad MW is or how somebody heard about it and was literal shaking, its all worth it for the few honest responses for or against.


I get your point and I can see why some people might be happy to keep the name, while others would prefer to change it. What troubles me is that when it comes to taking offense there is no end to what people might deem offensive, so if it's not the majority of users we're dealing with then a) what constitutes a valid request that the forum needs to adhere to? b) where do we stop? 'Cause there are a lot of things in this forum that might be deemed offensive.

I also don't accept the "exclusion" card, since the forum is open to participation to all non-minors; there is no screening procedure whatsoever. So how are people, as a group, excluded? Unless it's the "I take offense with X, so I don't want to be part of the forum" group, but where does that end? What is the goal? To make a change so that someone's friends feel they can sign up? To make sure that all the world can sign up? It might pose a problem that the forum is in English. There are tons of people who will find problem with the forum as it is or as it will become, you cannot please everyone.

These are honest questions by the way, I can't state this enough times as I'm sure someone will go ahead and say I'm "biased" or whatever.
notmiserlouagain
All this namechanging is an avalanche of bs
and so manipulative
Jesus on the cross is offensive - at least to me...
Offense can be a good thing though?
Hope that helps Miley Cyrus
dubonaire
Paranormal Patroler wrote:
LoFi Junglist wrote:
You can't dismiss the MW culture with reductionist nonsense like "a common characteristic with other people".

It's a common interest between people.


The question posed was "is there a problem of accessibility to certain cultural groups in our society, and in what way does our community reflect that?" and I contest the idea of cultural groups having specific opinions by default. For example, I do not buy that the opinion of any cultural group in regards to nomenclature will be unanimous. I was not talking about the MW culture, whatever that is, I was merely looking into the question.

Quote:
MW already attracts a pretty diverse crowd, because we're only held together by some pretty obscure interests. I would go far as to say MW couldn't agree on common shared music taste. A few jokes about beards, a few jokes about Ponytails. All I see when I go to meets are some pretty rich people, enjoying a pretty obscure hobby. Plenty of diversity, tolerating odd music choices, getting to know unusual people for a single common interest.

Whose to say that that type of supportive network isn't just as important as a social network that has planned gender inclusion, or whatever other hot topic is on the agenda?


Agreed.

Quote:
Like you said, the Poll results aren't worth much (as quantitative data it doesn't represent the community accurately). It is AWESOME for qualitative data though, and you don't need much of that to find trends in attitudes. Yes there's lots of anecdotes about how rad MW is or how somebody heard about it and was literal shaking, its all worth it for the few honest responses for or against.


I get your point and I can see why some people might be happy to keep the name, while others would prefer to change it. What troubles me is that when it comes to taking offense there is no end to what people might deem offensive, so if it's not the majority of users we're dealing with then a) what constitutes a valid request that the forum needs to adhere to? b) where do we stop? 'Cause there are a lot of things in this forum that might be deemed offensive.

I also don't accept the "exclusion" card, since the forum is open to participation to all non-minors; there is no screening procedure whatsoever. So how are people, as a group, excluded? Unless it's the "I take offense with X, so I don't want to be part of the forum" group, but where does that end? What is the goal? To make a change so that someone's friends feel they can sign up? To make sure that all the world can sign up? It might pose a problem that the forum is in English. There are tons of people who will find problem with the forum as it is or as it will become, you cannot please everyone.

These are honest questions by the way, I can't state this enough times as I'm sure someone will go ahead and say I'm "biased" or whatever.


If there are people not participating because they feel intimated they should be listened to even if in the minority. Why would anyone want to be perceived as intimidating anyway? I've been heavily shouted down for complaining about what is by any measure lame sexist commentary on this site.

So many times I've been cautioned for posting political commentary, reminded that this is a modular synth forum. So what do pictures of fat nude women and dicks have to do with modular synths? Is this a forum where political commentary is subordinated by puerile and often derisive gutter humour? Apparently. Why need to have threads that do what reddit does?

To be clear, I thought that the opportunistic positioning on other social media over the last week was deplorable and transparently a bunch of males (and only males) wanting to be important. But the reality is they had a trump card and they got traction. I donated to Patreon because on balance I thought Mike had more credibility than those people, and that overall the forum is an overwhelmingly positive experience. But there are lots of people that hate the threads and particular attitudes of certain posters that this forum does not need and that could do with review. The forum would not lose it's greatness if that kind of commentary was acknowledged as inappropriate. The name is not an issue, but the name becomes an issue when there is behaviour our community doesn't really need.

PS. I don't know what Metasonix is trying to prove, for example, whether it's irony or defending some kind of misread assault on individuality - I have no idea. But it's not sophisticated or witty. This is something that needs to be understood by those who think they are defending something. What you are defending has no contemporary value, and no merit. And if you want to make a point, leave it if you lack the wit.
Paranormal Patroler
dubonaire wrote:
[...] This is something that needs to be understood by those who think they are defending something. What you are defending has no contemporary value, and no merit. And if you want to make a point, leave it if you lack the wit.


I appreciate your input, as always, mostly because you are a voice of reason, when we agree on matters and especially when we disagree; both at equal occurrence if not on equal measure. Your last sentence is uncalled for - you do not get to judge what each one considers meritful or valuable.

Contrary to your post, this postmodernist rage and attack on language is all the reason one needs to stand fast and ask: what is this about? Where is this heading?

Personally I think that "defending" the name of a forum I participate in when it's been posed as a problem on account of an imaginary "group" that feels intimidated by it and the forum's content is worth debating over.

Quote:
If there are people not participating because they feel intimated they should be listened to even if in the minority. Why would anyone want to be perceived as intimidating anyway? I've been heavily shouted down for complaining about what is by any measure lame sexist commentary on this site.


If there are people who are intimidated by a name (of all things) they should participate and voice their personal opinion as part of the forum; change from within. Hermetech Mastering said there are "lots of female modular users [who] are not happy to participate here, I think that's more due to content than name, but the name certainly doesn't help.", if that's true (and I have no reason to contest that indeed HM knows people who are not happy to participate) then that is a shame but the shame is equally on them for not participating as it is on the posters who post "lame sexist commentary" or whatever it is that keeps the female modular users out (my assumption). Why would anyone cower and require someone else to talk on their behalf, even more so in a violent, and turbulant place such as the internet where we are mostly anonymous?

We have all kinds of members here and you and I and everybody else have absolutely NO way of knowing who the forum really are. We only know each other on a 1:1 basis from what we post. If there is a problem with parts of the forum or "particular attitudes of certain posters that this forum does not need and that could do with review" then what each one of us ought to be doing is voicing their antithesis on an individual level in the places that pose the problem, by raising the issue there, on the threads, and also, you know, ignoring people using the ignore button. I do that all the time because, yes, some people's posts I can do without.

Going on about supposed offenders and offended, and taking a jab at a forum when it is actually down is not the way of civil discourse, I'm glad we agree on that.
Dr. Sketch-n-Etch
I have a feeling that, if you made a set of all the people who a) are into modular synths, and b) find the name "Muff Wiggler" so offensive that they just can't, you would end up with a virtually empty set.

So, fuck 'em, the non-existent bastards (and bastardettes). That's what I say.
dubonaire
Paranormal Patroler wrote:
dubonaire wrote:
[...] This is something that needs to be understood by those who think they are defending something. What you are defending has no contemporary value, and no merit. And if you want to make a point, leave it if you lack the wit.


I appreciate your input, as always, mostly because you are a voice of reason, when we agree on matters and especially when we disagree; both at equal occurrence if not on equal measure. Your last sentence is uncalled for - you do not get to judge what each one considers meritful or valuable.

Contrary to your post, this postmodernist rage and attack on language is all the reason one needs to stand fast and ask: what is this about? Where is this heading?

Personally I think that "defending" the name of a forum I participate in when it's been posed as a problem on account of an imaginary "group" that feels intimidated by it and the forum's content is worth debating over.

Quote:
If there are people not participating because they feel intimated they should be listened to even if in the minority. Why would anyone want to be perceived as intimidating anyway? I've been heavily shouted down for complaining about what is by any measure lame sexist commentary on this site.


If there are people who are intimidated by a name (of all things) they should participate and voice their personal opinion as part of the forum; change from within. Hermetech Mastering said there are "lots of female modular users [who] are not happy to participate here, I think that's more due to content than name, but the name certainly doesn't help.", if that's true (and I have no reason to contest that indeed HM knows people who are not happy to participate) then that is a shame but the shame is equally on them for not participating as it is on the posters who post "lame sexist commentary" or whatever it is that keeps the female modular users out (my assumption). Why would anyone cower and require someone else to talk on their behalf, even more so in a violent, and turbulant place such as the internet where we are mostly anonymous?

We have all kinds of members here and you and I and everybody else have absolutely NO way of knowing who the forum really are. We only know each other on a 1:1 basis from what we post. If there is a problem with parts of the forum or "particular attitudes of certain posters that this forum does not need and that could do with review" then what each one of us ought to be doing is voicing their antithesis on an individual level in the places that pose the problem, by raising the issue there, on the threads, and also, you know, ignoring people using the ignore button. I do that all the time because, yes, some people's posts I can do without.

Going on about supposed offenders and offended, and taking a jab at a forum when it is actually down is not the way of civil discourse, I'm glad we agree on that.


You are right, my last comment was unnecessary. Unfortunately I can't edit the post.

I agree with the overall gist of your comment. It's not as bad or as prevalent as is made out.

The thing is, it is really hard to change from within because there is a group of people who rally to stifle the discussion with accusations of SJW etc. A lot of people give up, but I think actually think it's better now than it was.
meatbeatz
I just wanted to say dubonaire and Paranormal Patroler are two of my most solid cats on the forum. Respect and thanks for all you have contributed over the years. oops
haricots
As a long time member / infrequent poster, this site is the best of the best concerning modular synthesis. Once in a while it has blown up due to certain users who went a little nuts and pissed off a few too many people. Compared to other sites out there, this is by far one of the best behaved ones I've come across. If you look hard enough, you'll find offensive stuff everywhere . I feel that everyone is welcome here. My experience anyway.
mallarme
haricots wrote:
As a long time member / infrequent poster, this site is the best of the best concerning modular synthesis. Once in a while it has blown up due to certain users who went a little nuts and pissed off a few too many people. Compared to other sites out there, this is by far one of the best behaved ones I've come across. If you look hard enough, you'll find offensive stuff everywhere . I feel that everyone is welcome here. My experience anyway.


Thank you. That's it.
drip.feed
dubonaire wrote:
A lot of people give up, but I think actually think it's better now than it was.

It is a lot better than it was. There was an active decision taken by the mods about a year ago (maybe longer?) to push back on potentially offensive posts. It is a lot less juvenile than it was in the past.
PrimateSynthesis
drip.feed wrote:
It is a lot better than it was. There was an active decision taken by the mods about a year ago (maybe longer?) to push back on potentially offensive posts. It is a lot less juvenile than it was in the past.


Yes, the mods did decide to make things less of "a free for all" to be more "inclusive to all segments of society". Since then they seem more likely to remove posts and close threads, most often without any explanation. While that might make the forum less potentially offensive in general. And one could argue that is better. I don't see how it makes it less "intimidating" to women in particular. Since the censored content rarely if ever has anything to do with sex or gender.
Silicium
The question is, would it be better if the name is something like "Banana Wiggler"

if yes then we might have a sexism issue, if Banana Wiggler is also bad they are just so soft for this area.

so maybe make a poll to the offended persons?
Timmy
This will probably be my last post on MW. I would delete or disable my account but there doesn't seem to be any way to do so, so I'll just reset my password to some random string which I'll throw away.

Anyway, the question posed in this thread, "Is [the name] "Muff Wiggler" offensive?", completely misses the point. The question is not whether "Muff Wiggler" is in itself offensive, but rather, what does it signify or signal?

To a significant number of casual observers, the name signals "this is a porn site".

To a significant number of potential participants, particularly female ones, the name signals "this is a club for immature boys, who will at best squabble endless between themselves, and at worst, behave like members of typical computer gamer communities ".

That's the problem with the name. The problem is not that the words "muff wiggler" are themselves offensive - I suspect very, very few people are offended or confronted by them. It is just what they signal that is the issue.

It matters little if either of those impressions, conveyed by the name, are true or not - the damage is done by what the name signals at first glance.

More formally: it is about the wider semiotics, not just the semantics.
ignatius
i imagine it'd be less painful to just change the name than it would to reread this thread.. or continue debating and posting about it seriously, i just don't get it
Dr. Sketch-n-Etch
I guess I have to qualify my last posting. Clearly, anyone who uses the word "semiotics" in normal conversation would fit squarely into the set of people who would be oh so offended by "Muff Wiggler" (and not just the name, but what it signifies -- in other words, offended in principle rather than in practice, on behalf of others who probably also "reify" whatever the hell that is).
Shledge
It's not even an offensive word everywhere. In fact I was pretty surprised to learn it was to some people. A bit silly perhaps, but offensive?

I was born in Ireland, where the word "muff" to mean vagina isn't particularly common usage. People are aware of its connotations, it's just not often used in that context. Instead, people would associate it with the "fair of Muff" (it's actually quite boring and centered around horses), have traditional songs called "Muff power", have a town called "Muff" and websites like this: http://www.muffdivingclub.ie/

In other words, no one really gets bent out of shape over it's use. Why? Ironically as Tim mentioned, semiotics!

Now, if it was called "fanny fiddler", THAT would be dodgy to an Irish person! lol
Shledge
Shledge wrote:
It's not even an offensive word everywhere. In fact I was pretty surprised to learn it was to some people. A bit silly perhaps, but offensive?

I was born in Ireland, where the word "muff" to mean vagina isn't particularly common usage. People are aware of its connotations elsewhere, but it simply does not have such connotations here. Instead, people would associate it with the "fair of Muff" (it's actually quite boring and centered around horses), have traditional songs called "Muff power", have a town called "Muff" and websites like this: http://www.muffdivingclub.ie/

In other words, no one really gets bent out of shape over it's use. Why? Ironically as Tim mentioned, semiotics!

Now, if it was called "fanny fiddler", THAT would be dodgy to an Irish person! lol
Shledge
...and I thought the quote button was an "edit" button. d'oh!

Note to self: don't post the moment you've woken up.
chaosick
Dr. Sketch-n-Etch wrote:
I guess I have to qualify my last posting. Clearly, anyone who uses the word "semiotics" in normal conversation would fit squarely into the set of people who would be oh so offended by "Muff Wiggler" (and not just the name, but what it signifies -- in other words, offended in principle rather than in practice, on behalf of others who probably also "reify" whatever the hell that is).


hahaha. I became infatuated by Umberto Eco and Semiotics at an early age and I think this is funny as hell.
Silicium
Timmy wrote:
This will probably be my last post on MW. I would delete or disable my account but there doesn't seem to be any way to do so, so I'll just reset my password to some random string which I'll throw away.

Anyway, the question posed in this thread, "Is [the name] "Muff Wiggler" offensive?", completely misses the point. The question is not whether "Muff Wiggler" is in itself offensive, but rather, what does it signify or signal?

To a significant number of casual observers, the name signals "this is a porn site".

To a significant number of potential participants, particularly female ones, the name signals "this is a club for immature boys, who will at best squabble endless between themselves, and at worst, behave like members of typical computer gamer communities ".

That's the problem with the name. The problem is not that the words "muff wiggler" are themselves offensive - I suspect very, very few people are offended or confronted by them. It is just what they signal that is the issue.

It matters little if either of those impressions, conveyed by the name, are true or not - the damage is done by what the name signals at first glance.

More formally: it is about the wider semiotics, not just the semantics.



But if it just annoys you because it sounds like a porn site, or [a significant amout of] persons don't want to join because the name suggests a site for immature boys - i can live with that.

there is actually no ethical issue in here and to be honest. It is a Porn Site!
Nobody have for force people to be here, if some keeps away because of the name, maybe he or she is immature...
drip.feed
Let's turn it around.

Would anyone object to 'rebranding' the site? Calling it Modular World or something and having muffwiggler.com redirect to modularworld.com? And making a bot to trawl through the database changing "muffwiggler" to "modular world"?

I don't give a shit about the name; it's juvenile, but we were all juvenile once. But I do give a shit if its connotations put people off from joining in around here, female or not.
Silicium
Changing the history reminds me of george orwell

I like muffwiggler as a name but english is not my native language and therefore it might sound different to me.
Ranxerox
drip.feed wrote:
Let's turn it around.

Would anyone object to 'rebranding' the site? Calling it Modular World or something and having muffwiggler.com redirect to modularworld.com? And making a bot to trawl through the database changing "muffwiggler" to "modular world"?

I don't give a shit about the name; it's juvenile, but we were all juvenile once. But I do give a shit if its connotations put people off from joining in around here, female or not.


I agree with this; personally not bothered by the name itself but don't like the thought of people being put off by it either. I've been around long enough to feel that we're 98% cool people with modern views on things like gender and sexuality, so it's unfortunate if the name of the forum is taken as a misrepresentation of that.

I doubt when Mike started the forum that he ever imagined it would turn into the global community juggernaut it has become, otherwise I'm pretty sure he would have considered a different name for it.

However, replacing every instance of the word 'muffwiggler' historically might be a bit excessive. How about just changing the forum name and adding an explanatory banner?

Perhaps combined with a public communication of some sort from Mike with some reassurances regarding forum inclusiveness and conduct going forwards?

I don't mean to suggest that Mike and the moderators should have to become thought police, any more than they currently are regarding political comments. Creating more rules always runs the risk of causing the community to splinter off into factions, which we don't want.

However, for a community to thrive people have to take ownership of their own conduct. And a good way of raising awareness could be a public statement clarifying the forum ethos and expected behaviours, by the forum founder himself? This might address some of the extra-mural perceptions of barriers or negatives that have formed.
Joe.
Timmy wrote:
Anyway, the question posed in this thread, "Is [the name] "Muff Wiggler" offensive?", completely misses the point. The question is not whether "Muff Wiggler" is in itself offensive, but rather, what does it signify or signal?

To a significant number of casual observers, the name signals "this is a porn site".


What a load of bullshit. It appears as a code-word and nothing more.

You've come from some weird angle where were the phrase 'Muffwiggler' is already internalized by everyone in the community as a porn term. It's a standard convention. no deviation between the word Muffwiggler and Muffdiver, they're literally spelt the same. It's a signal thats stabilized over time to only mean one thing.

I'll take this moment to point out 'Muffdiving' was never a popular term and has been on the decline forever)

The idea that there's no need to negotiate any meaning there, it's a SUPER common porn term is ridiculous. Also, where are 'casual observers' coming across signals that are created anonymously without any context? no mention of electronics or modulars at all?

Ridiculous.

For a there to be a signified (idea) there has to be a signifier. Signifiers are produced by people that give it context. A seedy man in a redlight district can can have a banner titled 'muffwiggler' and an assumption could be lude as you've imagined. perhaps if the term was overheard on the train, as two men in trenchcoats mumble things to eachother, you could even jump to a prudish assumption.

Prove to us with any advert, any glorifying recommendation posted online, that Muffwiggler is some ambiguous thing open to any interpretation. I'd really like to know what all these 'casual observers' are seeing.
Ranxerox
LoFi Junglist wrote:

Prove to us with any advert, any glorifying recommendation posted online, that Muffwiggler is some ambiguous thing open to any interpretation. I'd really like to know what all these 'casual observers' are seeing.


Ok, I'll bite - 'muff' is a crude English-language euphemism for female genitalia, and 'muffwiggling' might easily be construed as a reference to female masturbation.

As an experiment, I suggest you try (as I have) asking multiple English-speaking women what they would think of an overwhelmingly male internet forum called 'muffwiggler', and whether or not they would like to hang out there... I think you can imagine the responses. They might be forming the wrong assumptions, but they can hardly be blamed for that in light of the contextual ambiguity that you acknowledge. And it doesn't help that the 'Blue Stockings' blog piece is the number two search result when you Google it.

So I think the point is precisely that it's ambiguous, and that that ambiguity has grown increasingly unhelpful as the community (as well as contextual norms in society) have evolved.

When the forum was small and introverted, the humorous intent of the name outweighed that of any potential negative impressions. But as it's grown and the appeal of modular synths has spread, the forum is reaching an inflection point - does it simply try to continue as a larger version of itself circa 2007, or does it respond and adapt?
ngarjuna
Ranxerox wrote:

Ok, I'll bite - 'muff' is a crude English-language euphemism for female genitalia, and 'muffwiggling' might easily be construed as a reference to female masturbation.

As an experiment, I suggest you try (as I have) asking multiple English-speaking women what they would think of an overwhelmingly male internet forum called 'muffwiggler', and whether or not they would like to hang out there... I think you can imagine the responses. They might be forming the wrong assumptions, but they can hardly be blamed for that in light of the contextual ambiguity that you acknowledge. And it doesn't help that the 'Blue Stockings' blog piece is the number two search result when you Google it.

So I think the point is precisely that it's ambiguous, and that that ambiguity has grown increasingly unhelpful as the community (as well as contextual norms in society) have evolved.

When the forum was small and introverted, the humorous intent of the name outweighed that of any potential negative impressions. But as it's grown and the appeal of modular synths has spread, the forum is reaching an inflection point - does it simply try to continue as a larger version of itself circa 2007, or does it respond and adapt?

Great experiment! But: ask those same women what they think of "an overwhelmingly male internet forum called 'Synthamosizer', and whether or not they would like to hang out there..." and you're quite likely to come up with identical results. How many of those women polled want to post on a synthesizer site at all?

At this point my main objection to changing the name (other than the fact that Mike has made it clear he doesn't want to and ingrates have spent years trying to make him feel badly about that) is that it honors the kind of entitlement and whininess that does not have much in common with social justice or evolving language.
BananaPlug
Quote:
...what they would think of an overwhelmingly male internet forum called 'muffwiggler'

Exactly. Most of my family and friends already think it's weird and kind of antisocial that I waste my life making funny noises. The name of this forum is something I just don't talk about. Don't want them thinking I'm a misogynistic sicko as well as a weirdo. Don't want people glancing at my screen while I read it at the cafe. Explaining is a nuisance and invariably sounds lame.
PhineasFreak
the whole thing still just smacks of people with a chip on their shoulder looking for any excuse to argue.

this place is doing fine as it is and isnt gonna suffer greatly if a tiny fraction of a percentage of oversensitive idiots get butthurt.

seems like it would be far easier to just forget the whole issue and go play with synths instead.
thevegasnerve
I asked my wife about the name and it appeared to fall into the mildly offensive category, but not anything that elicited anger. I still believe continuing to improve the conduct of the forum is most important and gives the playful nature of the name some context. We should be able to have a little fun with this PC umbrella that modern culture has placed on us.
Silicium
The problem i have with such discussions is, that we don't talk about sexism but feminism.

Yes, the name might be not gender neutral, but as i already wrote, i guarantee - if muffwiggler would be named bananawiggler, nobody would care about.

They just trolling. if someone don't know mw he or she will not come to here anyway. Of course if you ask someone about "Muff Wiggler" he or she could be offended but its out of any context!

I would really like to hear some arguments of a few offended persons regarding the name, really i don't understand that.
khyber
Silicium wrote:

I would really like to hear some arguments of a few offended persons regarding the name, really i don't understand that.


Are only women allowed to be offended parties? Otherwise there's quite a lot of arguments on this thread already. The question you pose is a bit of a misnomer anyhow, since anyone who already decided they don't want to be on Muffwiggler wouldn't be found currently on Muffwiggler!
Shledge
Bananawiggler sounds dodgy to me eek!

How about Knob Fondlers?
Ranxerox
khyber wrote:
Silicium wrote:

I would really like to hear some arguments of a few offended persons regarding the name, really i don't understand that.


Are only women allowed to be offended parties? Otherwise there's quite a lot of arguments on this thread already. The question you pose is a bit of a misnomer anyhow, since anyone who already decided they don't want to be on Muffwiggler wouldn't be found currently on Muffwiggler!


Sure; they represent the 'unknown unknowns'; it's hard to know the scale of the issue as it isn't reported in a quantifiable way.

Nevertheless, I believe women have a huge contribution to make in the world of electronic music, and that the identity of this forum is about much more than just a name.

I appreciate Mike has been through the thought process of changing it in the past. However, as women become more engaged with modular synthesis, yet continue to feel alienated from the forum, the issue will only worsen. Failure to reach a mutual compromise feels like an 'own goal' for the community.
Silicium
Just asked my gf about.

she said "oh my god, they should relax. otherwise we have also have to think about most Tarantino Movies e.g. Titty Twister etc."
Paranormal Patroler
Ranxerox wrote:
However, as women become more engaged with modular synthesis, yet continue to feel alienated from the forum, the issue will only worsen.


You mean some women feel alienated from the forum. We have no idea of what the percentile of female forum members is.
noobyscooby
I'd love a change, I'm slightly embarrassed about it when surfing it at work, but honestly my wife and others find Gearslutz far more offensive.
thispoison
Let's change it to "Blue Stocking".

That leaves no room for filthy interpretation.
Silicium
There is no room for dirty minds on this planet anymore!

yep for gearslutz i fully agree. this is offending.
ccastellanossf
Paranormal Patroler wrote:
Ranxerox wrote:
However, as women become more engaged with modular synthesis, yet continue to feel alienated from the forum, the issue will only worsen.


You mean some women feel alienated from the forum. We have no idea of what the percentile of female forum members is.


We also have no idea how many women, people of color and non-gender binary people never even considered joining the forum and the modular synth culture at large because of the name, sexism, boys club culture, etc. Why would we willfully ignore and/or alienate potential friends, collaborators, sources of new ideas and perspectives that can make this field that much more interesting?

I am really just talking about basic empathy and care and concern for others (which I know exists in abundance here).
ignatius
drip.feed wrote:
Let's turn it around.

Would anyone object to 'rebranding' the site? Calling it Modular World or something and having muffwiggler.com redirect to modularworld.com? And making a bot to trawl through the database changing "muffwiggler" to "modular world"?

I don't give a shit about the name; it's juvenile, but we were all juvenile once. But I do give a shit if its connotations put people off from joining in around here, female or not.


if a name change happens i hope it's not something vanilla like "modular world" and that mike just makes up words like "Marfular Werbler" or something.
Dr. Sketch-n-Etch
I think he should change it to something even more offensive. I can't stand people who are easily offended. I avoid them in real life, so why not here?
leeski
Dr. Sketch-n-Etch wrote:
I think he should change it to something even more offensive. I can't stand people who are easily offended. I avoid them in real life, so why not here?


hihi That's so creepy hiding
Paranormal Patroler
ccastellanossf wrote:
Paranormal Patroler wrote:
Ranxerox wrote:
However, as women become more engaged with modular synthesis, yet continue to feel alienated from the forum, the issue will only worsen.


You mean some women feel alienated from the forum. We have no idea of what the percentile of female forum members is.


We also have no idea how many women, people of color and non-gender binary people never even considered joining the forum and the modular synth culture at large because of the name, sexism, boys club culture, etc. Why would we willfully ignore and/or alienate potential friends, collaborators, sources of new ideas and perspectives that can make this field that much more interesting?

I am really just talking about basic empathy and care and concern for others (which I know exists in abundance here).


We also don't know how many people don't sign up because the language of the forum is English. The problems are numerous if you want to find problems - my point, on that issue, was claiming that people don't sign up or that the community is lopsided is just talk with nothing to back it up; do you have any idea who signs up? How many black people are part of the community? How many non-binary? You don't know. Maybe they don't care to make an issue out of it. Hell, you don't even know half the people on this thread to begin with - claiming otherwise is a subjective perspective with no stats.

If you do know of a specific person who refuses to sign up because of forum issues tell them that they only way their voice will be heard is if they DO sign up and voice it themselves. If they don't want to join in then the majority of the forum is not them and, well, the majority wins because that's the way it goes.
Ranxerox
There's no less evidence than there is for believing the forum isn't lopsided - absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

Reason, therefore, would suggest that as women are no less musical than men, and as there are numerous significant examples of women active in the field of electronic music throughout its history, and as there are as many women as men on the internet, there must therefore be a reason for them being so chronically under-represented on this forum. Either that or they're here in significant numbers, yet simply pretending to be blokes.

I agree that women joining the forum in order to advance their level of involvement in the community and challenge the perceived status quo, would be a good thing. But it seems counterintuitive to imagine they would do this while feeling excluded in the first place - I.e. the old chicken and egg scenario.

Therefore, where's the harm in making the place a little more welcoming? It seems thou dost protest too much...
ignatius
Dr. Sketch-n-Etch wrote:
I think he should change it to something even more offensive. I can't stand people who are easily offended. I avoid them in real life, so why not here?


i too bought the MW T-shirt of the pencil drawn big penis unicorn killing nazis.
Paranormal Patroler
Ranxerox wrote:
Reason, therefore, would suggest that as women are no less musical than men, and as there are numerous significant examples of women active in the field of electronic music throughout its history, and as there are as many women as men on the internet, there must therefore be a reason for them being so chronically under-represented on this forum.


Let's see:

- women are no less musical than men is not a fact but as you're just making a void claim without even giving a definition of musicality, I'll take it for the sake of argument.

- there are examples of women active in the field of electronic music but not as many as men

- there are as many women as men on the internet but (supposedly) not as many in this forum

What would most simply explain the above? An unknown bias from the forum? Sexism or, could it be that not as many women are interested in modular systems as men?

Let me give you a hint,

differences in men and women's interest/priorities:

Lippa (1998): http://bit.ly/2vr0PHF
Rong Su (2009): http://bit.ly/2wtlbzU
Lippa (2010): http://bit.ly/2wyfW23
Geary (2017) blog: http://bit.ly/2vXqCcF
Paranormal Patroler
See, I care about this stuff enough to actually read the math.

PS: women are actually more artistic by the way, but I had to point out your fallacy because why not?
listentoaheartbeat
Ranxerox wrote:
Therefore, where's the harm in making the place a little more welcoming?


'nuff said.
pines
The only other forum that I belong to is "The Pedal Steel Guitar Forum". Women members/posters there are rare. They do exist, and are respected, valuable members of the community. The real bias there is along the lines of "...it ain't country...." or "Buddy wouldn't have played that" or "A black Push Pull Emmons is the only good sounding guitar", etc. I find this forum to be much more open to any sort of music and means of accomplishing it, irrespective of who is doing it.

The name does have unfortunate, somewhat unintentional, associations. I'd like to see a banner graphic with a photo of the original pedalboard with the Big Muff and the Wiggler.....

The name probably could be changed, but I'm usually against hitting the history eraser button. There is the added advantage of me logging fewer hours on MW while at work.
PrimateSynthesis
Ranxerox wrote:
But it seems counterintuitive to imagine they would do this while feeling excluded in the first place - I.e. the old chicken and egg scenario.


It seems more like a Green Eggs and Ham scenario. I don't know of anyone who gave this place an honest try and felt excluded. This forum has had members announce they were gay, transsexual, and even a pony. And as far as I can remember, the responses were nothing but supportive.

Ranxerox wrote:
Therefore, where's the harm in making the place a little more welcoming? It seems thou dost protest too much...


And how does one make the place more welcoming? A public communication regarding forum inclusiveness and conduct going forwards might have the opposite effect. Men who make a big show of how feminist they are often turn out to be creeps. Consider the revelations regarding Joss Whedon, Hugo Schwyzer, and all these outspoken guys https://twitter.com/GamingAndPandas/status/916519092999409664 who would scare most reasonable women away.

A good explanation why this forum might have fewer women might not have anything to do with women feeling intimidated or unwelcome, but might simply be a matter of interest. http://slatestarcodex.com/2017/08/07/contra-grant-on-exaggerated-diffe rences/ If one must generalize: women are more interested in people, and men are more interested in things. This forum is mostly about things — building things, buying things, and using things. And changing its name to "Woke Vagina Treehouse" isn't going to change that.
Silicium
What if women just don't join because they use their time to make music?
guestt
Oh dear...

This discussion is ridiculous, have any of you ever actually talked to any women?

I have discussed this very subject on countless occasions and I have yet to find a woman, or a man, who is actually offended by it; they all just burst out laughing at the ridiculousness of it! Which I always figured was the point. Yes it has a very mild sexual connotation, but who the fuck cares about such a microscopic triviality? This discussion is far more likely to put people off than the name ever would!

Yes life is unfair, but making a mountain out of such trivial issues as this when there are absolute fucking monstrous atrocities going on at this very moment is a complete and utter waste of everyones time.

Get a life!! Get a sense of humour! Chill the fuck out a bit... Make some music!! Stop making it into an issue because as far as I can see the only people who are offended by it are the sort of people who like to get offended by things and cause a fuss wherever they can because they enjoy taking the moral high ground and putting other people down and well... we could do with a few of those making a fuss about somethig that actually matters instead of this.

Perhaps in a thousand years when all the worlds problems are 'solved' and there are a few remaining vestiges of innuendo left and everyone is completely humourless and perfectly politically correct this sort of thing might be completely wiped out, but until then... lets all just get along and stop worrying about it!

I love MuffWiggler, I love the name, it makes me laugh, I have an awful lot of female friends and believe in equal rights and would dearly love to see the atrocities of this world come to an end, but Muffwiggler is not one of them!
guestt
Sorry, by 'any of you' I mean any of you who are getting upset about this!

For all those who are offering notions that this is a non-issue you are very obviously enlightened and absolutely correct. I also concur that MW is a very welcoming supportive place and that the few instances of anything other than that are inevitable outliers that are invariable challenged.

The best policy as pointed out above, is just to get on with things keep it about the gear and not try and do anything, especially not try and make it more welcoming, that's just creepy and weird.

OK, best carry on... smile
thebrotherspus
Baddcr wrote:
Oh dear...

This discussion is ridiculous, have any of you ever actually talked to any women?

I have discussed this very subject on countless occasions and I have yet to find a woman, or a man, who is actually offended by it; they all just burst out laughing at the ridiculousness of it! Which I always figured was the point. Yes it has a very mild sexual connotation, but who the fuck cares about such a microscopic triviality? This discussion is far more likely to put people off than the name ever would!

Yes life is unfair, but making a mountain out of such trivial issues as this when there are absolute fucking monstrous atrocities going on at this very moment is a complete and utter waste of everyones time.

Get a life!! Get a sense of humour! Chill the fuck out a bit... Make some music!! Stop making it into an issue because as far as I can see the only people who are offended by it are the sort of people who like to get offended by things and cause a fuss wherever they can because they enjoy taking the moral high ground and putting other people down and well... we could do with a few of those making a fuss about somethig that actually matters instead of this.

Perhaps in a thousand years when all the worlds problems are 'solved' and there are a few remaining vestiges of innuendo left and everyone is completely humourless and perfectly politically correct this sort of thing might be completely wiped out, but until then... lets all just get along and stop worrying about it!

I love MuffWiggler, I love the name, it makes me laugh, I have an awful lot of female friends and believe in equal rights and would dearly love to see the atrocities of this world come to an end, but Muffwiggler is not one of them!


Agreed.
Carrousel
Baddcr wrote:
Oh dear...

This discussion is ridiculous, have any of you ever actually talked to any women?

I have discussed this very subject on countless occasions and I have yet to find a woman, or a man, who is actually offended by it; they all just burst out laughing at the ridiculousness of it! Which I always figured was the point. Yes it has a very mild sexual connotation, but who the fuck cares about such a microscopic triviality? This discussion is far more likely to put people off than the name ever would!

Yes life is unfair, but making a mountain out of such trivial issues as this when there are absolute fucking monstrous atrocities going on at this very moment is a complete and utter waste of everyones time.

Get a life!! Get a sense of humour! Chill the fuck out a bit... Make some music!! Stop making it into an issue because as far as I can see the only people who are offended by it are the sort of people who like to get offended by things and cause a fuss wherever they can because they enjoy taking the moral high ground and putting other people down and well... we could do with a few of those making a fuss about somethig that actually matters instead of this.

Perhaps in a thousand years when all the worlds problems are 'solved' and there are a few remaining vestiges of innuendo left and everyone is completely humourless and perfectly politically correct this sort of thing might be completely wiped out, but until then... lets all just get along and stop worrying about it!

I love MuffWiggler, I love the name, it makes me laugh, I have an awful lot of female friends and believe in equal rights and would dearly love to see the atrocities of this world come to an end, but Muffwiggler is not one of them!


Yeah this sums up my feelings too.

It could even be argued that solving real problems of bigotry is actually made harder when people claim offence at things like 'Muffwiggler'. Sexism and racism are sadly on the increase and clamping down on childish innuendo isn't going to help fix it.
Shledge
Not to mention that people who get offended by such things are by in large, unfunny and dry as shite. Almost like a high-brow cork is shoved up their arse to keep the smug whiff of their own shit leaking out, because you know, they're too grand for that.

I'm not the type who is fond of people saying hateful shit under the pretense of "jokes". Hell, I even think feminism is a good thing. But I honestly don't see anything wrong with being juvenile, laughing at stupid shit and by extension, using silly names for forums - I do it a lot myself![/i]
Ranxerox
My suggestion is simply to get ahead of changes in the wider world, through a bit of benign, harmless reform. Why overthink it?

I personally don't care about the name. What I care about is that I want more women to join the forum.

Am I a crypto-misogynist creep with a dry cork up my ass for wanting that? Maybe I am - so what?

Do I have stats to back up my position? Nope - but they wouldn't be much use anyway, and luckily I don't need 'em.

Whatever else, one thing is true - lots of combative AWMs employing ludicrously contorted arguments to defend their privilege to be 'douchey' on an internet forum, is so pathetic. meh
luchog
Ranxerox wrote:
Whatever else, one thing is true - lots of combative AWMs employing ludicrously contorted arguments to defend their privilege to be 'douchey' on an internet forum, is so pathetic. meh


Agreed.

How much effort does it take to just not be a dick? Annoying how many online fora which should be more inclusive, and would greatly benefit by being so, end up being dominated by the "He-Man Woman Haters Club" so often.
chvad
Two people requesting others to be more considerate by calling people names. Clever.
Paranormal Patroler
Ranxerox wrote:
My suggestion is simply to get ahead of changes in the wider world, through a bit of benign, harmless reform. Why overthink it?

I personally don't care about the name. What I care about is that I want more women to join the forum.

Am I a crypto-misogynist creep with a dry cork up my ass for wanting that? Maybe I am - so what?

Do I have stats to back up my position? Nope - but they wouldn't be much use anyway, and luckily I don't need 'em.

Whatever else, one thing is true - lots of combative AWMs employing ludicrously contorted arguments to defend their privilege to be 'douchey' on an internet forum, is so pathetic. meh


Whereas your elegantly phrased dismissal is so eloquent. Everyone who disagrees or proposes an alternative explanation is an angry white male? Wouldn't you find my posts self serving if I dismissed your opinion as SJW and be done with it instead of actually talking "stats" and proposing an alternative explanation?

Stats don't matter, the opinions of others don't matter, the fact that the forum does not actually impose restrictions to people signing-up doesn't matter, asking a very serious question about where do we limit benign, harmless reform so that we can be accommodating without having to exclude others later on does not matter. There is only one explanation and we either or all accept it or we are privileged, combative and ludicrous. Is that it?

No wonder these discussions end up nowhere. There is no debate, just juveniles calling names. Next time someone says all discussions on the matter are shut down I'll have a few quotes to show how that actually goes down.
Ranxerox
I used the term AWM - angry white male - and the term 'douchey' (to describe certain behaviours, not the people making them.) Pretty big stretch to describe either as an example of name-calling.

Unless you're offended at 'oblique' word-usage on an internet forum, which you feel may be directed towards your demographic, and which makes you feel singled-out or excluded... Can you spot the irony here?
guestt
Paranormal Patroler wrote:
There is no debate, just juveniles calling names.


Exactly, and that is precisely why so many people I know, regardless of gender, do not come here! It is the single most unwelcoming aspect of the MuffWiggler forum.

I know this because I talk to people, the conversation goes like this: "Hey, why don't you go on MuffWiggler?" answer: "Because of all the crap on there!". This is ubiquitous, it is never because "I find the name offensive and don't want to associate with that".

This behaviour is extremely off-putting, way more than any mild innuendo in the name of the site could ever be. At least an order of magnitude, probably much more.

By all means make your point, that is what a discussion is... but the moment you resort to name calling - you negate anything constructive you might have said because that is all people see.

Net result: You discredit yourself, the community and you discourage people from joining, including those women you are so desperate for!

Dead Banana [/b]
guestt
Ranxerox wrote:
I used the term AWM - angry white male - and the term 'douchey' (to describe certain behaviours, not the people making them.) Pretty big stretch to describe either as an example of name-calling.

Unless you're offended at 'oblique' word-usage on an internet forum, which you feel may be directed towards your demographic, and which makes you feel singled-out or excluded... Can you spot the irony here?


I took it as name calling too - didn't seem to be any room for any other interpretation.

Same with this post too, it reads as though you are implying that
Paranormal Patroler is part of 'that' demographic in a derisory manner.

Which could not be further from the truth!!

It's not cool sad banana
Ranxerox
Well, my purpose is not to call people names, so I apologise for any offence caused.

I guess I may have risen to the bait of having my own point of view (a pretty innocuous one, I might add) repeatedly dissed, as well as being told:

Baddcr wrote:
This discussion is ridiculous, have any of you ever actually talked to any women?...

Get a life!! Get a sense of humour! Chill the fuck out a bit... Make some music!! Stop making it into an issue because as far as I can see the only people who are offended by it are the sort of people who like to get offended by things and cause a fuss wherever they can ...


Nothing inflammatory there at all... meh

By the way, I am quite chilled out - at least as far as not using any expletives. I have also spoken to some women; albeit maybe not the same ones you have spoken to.
guestt
Well, sure things can go wrong communicating on the internet, this was kinda one of my points; everyone here is super smart, interesting, generous, right thinking and kind-hearted on the whole and it's that we should be concentrating on making the primary message.

There are a minority who behave badly and I suggest that the best way to deal with that is by not responding to any crap, reporting the behaviour to the moderators, good moderation i.e. removal of the troublesome posts. Flat out refusal to accept any actual bad behaviour, be firm and clear that it is not acceptable. Because it's not.

I think the Discourse code of conduit is a superb example of how forum should be run, it really works:

https://meta.discourse.org/guidelines

Yes of course what I wrote is inflammatory, that was the point, it's the truth.

OK. Let me put it another way, being passionate about something is one of the most attractive qualities any person, regardless of genera could ever possibly have.

Being argumentative, or somehow ending up in a position where someone might interpret your involvement in the community as disruptive, be that by name calling or whatever, is not attractive, in any way, quite the opposite.

What's the answer...?

Stop talking about things that are not relevant, and start talking about our passion, the music, the gear, how it is used, what interesting thing you found out, share the music you made... and so on!

I guarantee that if everyone stuck to this one simple rule and if for whatever reason they feel they really had to bicker and squabble with someone they kept it private and out of the forum, the whole community would gain more members than you would believe... it's really, really simple!

Peace This is fun!
Stollmeister
So... What about "Modwiggler"?
It would be nice if a new name would still be compatible with referring to the activity of wiggling.
Shledge
Ranxerox wrote:
I used the term AWM - angry white male - and the term 'douchey' (to describe certain behaviours, not the people making them.) Pretty big stretch to describe either as an example of name-calling.

Unless you're offended at 'oblique' word-usage on an internet forum, which you feel may be directed towards your demographic, and which makes you feel singled-out or excluded... Can you spot the irony here?


Wouldn't call it name calling either, only descriptive of the people who think such small things actually matter.

The rise of right-wing groups, minorities getting fucked over and cases of institutionalised racism prevalent in modern society? Nah, it's a bunch of privileged white guys who think other privileged white guys are wrong over a silly name online.
guestt
Oh I see where that post was coming from now - that clarified it Shledge thanks!

Likewise apologies to you Ranxerox for the misinterpretation.

...and yeah! It is so silly it untrue hihi

I vote for keeping MuffWiggler - the implications of changing it are vast and a wicked problem to handle effectively from a technical point of view for a site of this size.

I think I have said all I want to say now, I am going to stand by my own suggestion and go and make some music or talk about making music!

One last thought... Muff is only interpreted as having sexual innuendo by people who just think like that anyway, the actual correct accepted definitions are available here:

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/muff

The correct interpretation is fumbling wiggler!

This is fun!
tojpeters
I once read an article from a ethicist decrying the typical 'gee golly gosh I have no idea the thing I'm doing/saying is unethical'.
The author made a simple observation- "would you do/say this in front of your wife,or daughter,or mother?'.
I think a simple standard would be if you wouldn't say it in front of your boss's 16 year old daughter don't say it here.
And would you walk up to your boss's daughter and say 'I am a muffwiggler'. Why not? I thought the name was innocuous.
So now everyone jump on me and explain how your boss owns a strip club or dirty book store and he wouldn't mind.
Jon Peters
listentoaheartbeat
Paranormal Patroler wrote:
Next time someone says all discussions on the matter are shut down I'll have a few quotes to show how that actually goes down.


Like this one, right?

Shledge wrote:
Not to mention that people who get offended by such things are by in large, unfunny and dry as shite. Almost like a high-brow cork is shoved up their arse to keep the smug whiff of their own shit leaking out, because you know, they're too grand for that.
guestt
Sigh.. it's not going to stop is it!!!

Oh well... if you cant beat em...

tojpeters

See link to correct interpretations above.

Statements like "Have you seen my muff dear?", "Oh no he muffed it" are perfect English, totally valid and have no sexual innuendo unless you to impose it!

Everyone: Please stop imposing your dirty minded interpretations onto this perfectly acceptable and respectable word that has been in use for a very, very long time, probably around 500 years or so!!

evil
tojpeters
That is like saying fuckwad is not unacceptable because the word wad is just fine. It's muffwiggler. Say it to every woman you see tomorrow and let us know how that works out. " Hi. my favorite website is Muffwiggler" Say that at work.
guestt
tojpeters wrote:
That is like saying fuckwad is not unacceptable because the word wad is just fine. It's muffwiggler. Say it to every woman you see tomorrow and let us know how that works out. " Hi. my favorite website is Muffwiggler" Say that at work.


You have obviously missed my posts above where I have spent years doing just exactly that...

Scroll back up and read it!

It's absolutely fine... women are absolutely fine with it, my various employers (not strip club owners or anything like that - actually large universities across Europe, and SMEs) are fine with it, no one except those who like to get on their soapbox and are super prudish have any problem with it.

the fact is, it's only embarrassing because you choose to make it embarrassing.It is an invalid slag use of the word and you are making he whole situation worse by reiterating that incorrect slang interpretation and not sticking by the official and proper interpretation in this context that is to perform a task clumsily or ineptly.

Stop promoting the sexual innuendo and start promoting the correct meaning and the problem might go away.

Every single person who brings it up as sexual innuendo is just adding to the problem and not helping anyone and making themselves look uniformed and just plain wrong and looking for a fight!

Time to get real!
Joe.
tojpeters wrote:
Hi. my favorite website is Muffwiggler" Say that at work.


Why?

Are there actually people in the world that go around introducing random topics to their friends, without any context what so ever?

Are there actually people that walk around loudly blurting out innuendos in case they can get a reaction from it?

That's wilful social incompetence. Might want to check if YOU'RE the problem in your culture.
guestt
Actually that's true LoFi Junglist

I didn't do 'exactly that' what actually happened was, we said hi how you doing? chatted about a whole variety of things, in the middle of which, what have you been up to was asked to which the response was, oh I've been doing my music stuff... then it's introduced. Or i have had it open on my computer and I've been asked, what's that? To which the response is, of MuffWiggler is a site about modular synths... and away we go!

There's no embarrassment, there's often some laughter at the silliness of it, but no one has ever turned pale, looked aghast at me with utter disgust, stormed off or shouted at me, or anything of the sort!

People are just not bothered. I can't calculate how many times I've had this discussion, but lets be modest and say it's a few hundred, it's probably more like a 1000, but regardless, there has never been a single incident that could be considered in anyway negative.

I am wondering if there may be another agenda here, is someone with a personal grudge trying to incite hatred against the MuffWiggler site? I just can't believe anyone would be genuinely so upset about this, especially given the actual correct interpretation of the word.

I have a much better analogy, it's like someone saying that sausage is an innuendo for penis and then people becoming offended at the word sausage!

Lets get the pitchforks out against every website that uses the word sausage on it's name shall we?

It's so fucking absurd!!
tojpeters
So it is an innuendo then, at least we agree on that.
I suppose a better analogy would be 'pole smoker'.
Nothing naughty there,right. Just two ordinary words that you and your filthy mind are misconstruing.
And I don't really expect anyone to say that at work. It is a thought exercise.
guestt
No never denied there was possible innuendo, that would be just as ridiculous!

...but *anything* could have innuendo, so what's the point of being upset about it? OOOhhh that's a nice rack! Better ban that word from the forums too hey! Oooh what a lot of knobs - damn going to have to stop using the word knob too!!! Need I really go on... surely everyone gets the point!??

So, you have a choice, I am suggesting that the preferred choice would be to not get upset, embarrassed about it, don't focus on the innuendo and instead focus on the correct interpretation os it and...

Say it LOUD!

Say it PROUD!!

Say MUFFWIGGLER!!!

nanners
tojpeters
Just to be clear I'm not upset. I don't care. It's not my website. I've talked with Mike about this and he knows how I feel. Which is namely I'm worried that 19 year old save the world hacker types read the blue stocking article or the one in Fact magazine and decide that based on that and the fact that muffwiggler sounds naughty they hack the site and take it down or whatever it is called causing Mike much grief.
guestt
Is that absolute 100% irrefutable fact?

i.e. there is tangible evidence that this is exactly what happened?

Can we see this evidence please?
Shledge
tojpeters wrote:
That is like saying fuckwad is not unacceptable because the word wad is just fine. It's muffwiggler. Say it to every woman you see tomorrow and let us know how that works out. " Hi. my favorite website is Muffwiggler" Say that at work.


My boss knows about it and is completely fine. GF is fine with it.

But hey, I'm from a country where "muff divers" is an actual sea diving group. seriously, i just don't get it
Paranormal Patroler
listentoaheartbeat wrote:

Like this one, right?


Ranxerox wrote:
Can you spot the irony here?


The only irony I've spotted is that instead of discussing the issue by contesting perspectives and points, some people contest people. That's not a discussion. And maybe you don't want to call it name-calling, but going for epithets isn't helping solve anything, or prove anything, it just diminishes the point you're trying to raise, whether we agree or not. So yes, listentoaheartbeat, every post of that kind, including others, don't be picky, there are a few. Or are just picking a side and that's it?

Can we now discuss this as adults, see if there is a problem, how we can as forum members come to a consensus and maybe get better or is everybody here just going to shout until the last one left screaming wins? Cause if it's all power play for you (and I'm talking everyone) then I have better things to do, personally, and I'm quite sure that's the case for you as well, so we might as well quit.
guestt
Cool!

Re. the name, if it was changed to anything else, anyone could easily start an innuendo about that. A bit like the time kids used to call each other spaz, an awful derogatory term derived from The Spastics Society, who because of this unfortunate derivation, changed their name to Scope. Guess what, the kids started calling each other scopies! I honestly do not believe there is any way to win this situation other than by claiming the actual interpretation of the word and sticking to it.

The main issue is actual offensive behaviour on the forums.i.e. misogynistic comments, personal abuse, race hate, anything like that.

The behaviour of some people has absolutely no relation to the name of the site.

My proposed course of action:

The bad behaviour should be addressed on a case by case basis with a zero tolerance policy. It's simply not acceptable. Apart from the obvious inappropriateness, we're all here to talk about gear and music making.

I will reiterate that if everyone sticks to talking about the gear in a positive, encouraging helpful manner, as is the way with the vast majority of the content here, it will naturally become a more attractive place to everyone, regardless of gender or anything else.

If every time the MuffWiggler sexual connotation is brought up it is quashed with a standard response, i.e. that's not right, it means 'clumsy' or 'awkward' it will disappear in time.

I don't think I see any other real problems.

Thoughts?
orangehexagon
Ranxerox wrote:
There's no less evidence than there is for believing the forum isn't lopsided - absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

Reason, therefore, would suggest that as women are no less musical than men, and as there are numerous significant examples of women active in the field of electronic music throughout its history, and as there are as many women as men on the internet, there must therefore be a reason for them being so chronically under-represented on this forum. Either that or they're here in significant numbers, yet simply pretending to be blokes.

I agree that women joining the forum in order to advance their level of involvement in the community and challenge the perceived status quo, would be a good thing. But it seems counterintuitive to imagine they would do this while feeling excluded in the first place - I.e. the old chicken and egg scenario.

Therefore, where's the harm in making the place a little more welcoming? It seems thou dost protest too much...


guess my gender, please smile
Paranormal Patroler
So this either falls on the shoulders of the mods or "self policing" in the sense that every forum member identifies an issue based on their subjective POV of what constitutes a problem and reports or confronts it as they see fit. I'd like to believe that that already works (at least dubonaire a few pages back claimed that the forum is getting better at it), but according to some it's not enough, so let's see what suggestions there are.

In regards to the name change I'm still not convinced and again I pose the question, where do we draw the line? What happens if tomorrow someone thinks calling it wiggling is derogatory or knobs are insinuative? That's language for you, if not instigating violence, there isn't a lot we ought to be doing to police it. Should we be changing the title or promoting the actual thematic of the forum instead?
orangehexagon
guestt
As posted above the Discourse guidelines are excellent and they work very very well.

https://meta.discourse.org/guidelines

We have plenty of mods, it's just a case of stepping up a bit for a while until things hopefully settle into a new routine of respectful conduct at all times.

I don't think there needs to be any ambiguity about what constitutes acceptable behaviour, it's either very clear i.e. I hate all <insert any group here> or if it is a grey area, it's not grey any more if a complaint is made or the mods spot it and feel it has gone too far. The guidelines linked to above do not present hard and fast rules, but they do work very well as a guide to help make rational decisions. It's not about judging anyone, just saying, look you're upsetting people, we don't accept that here, please stop.

The name, just let people think what they like. It's a free world. I believe Mike feels very strongly about keeping the name and he won't do anything about it anyway, so it's pretty pointless. I don't blame him, I think he should stick to his principles.

I believe adopting the interpretation that it is clumsy or whatever is the best we can hope for here. Sorry if I am repeating myself a bit.
commodorejohn
Gotta love how people complain about discussion being "shut down" any time somebody expresses disagreement with their position.
Joe.
Baddcr wrote:
oh I've been doing my music stuff... then it's introduced. Or i have had it open on my computer and I've been asked, what's that? To which the response is, of MuffWiggler is a site about modular synths... and away we go!

There's no embarrassment, there's often some laughter at the silliness of it, but no one has ever turned pale, looked aghast at me with utter disgust, stormed off or shouted at me, or anything of the sort!


I think I've been caught a number of times at Uni the same way and it's always been laughed off. (followed closely by extreme boredom at my bad explanations)

The problem I see with the idea names can be vulgar simply by existing, without any context, is absurd. Sure, shouting "I like Muffwiggler" randomly to female work colleagues will get you an appointment with HR, but I've got a feeling the same would happen if a man walked in and said "Hi ladies, I like Blue Stockings".

The problem though (that Blue Stockings brought up) was that some groups maybe using vulgar names to establish a community where misogyny is the norm. The problem with the poor journalism of the piece was it could not prove the assumption or show similar links on GearSlutz.


Man walks into an office and says "Hey Ladies, I like gear Sluts"...
Shledge
commodorejohn wrote:
Gotta love how people complain about discussion being "shut down" any time somebody expresses disagreement with their position.


To be honest, it is a ridiculous discussion.
Uvula_Fluorentine
In my opinion, someone offended by this title should never wear ear muffs, should remove the MUFFler from their car, and should never eat MUFFins or warm their hands with a muff.
Given a large enough muff, a cat will eventually wiggle through it. Get yourself a cat and muff and see.
tau_seti
With my FB feed lit up by women saying #metoo, it strikes me that there are ways in which this Forum does offend. There are issues with the name, but there are bigger issues, notably sexist avatars that make me, a straight male cringe every time I see them. Am I sexually attracted to women? Yes. Have I watched porn? Yes. Do these images make me cringe? Yes.

How is it that political discussions are banned but sexist imagery isn't?

There are very few women here, something remarkable given that there is a long history of women in synth.

This has been discussed ad infinitum here, and with the admins all but absent from these kind of issues, I'm afraid nothing will be done. But I'm saying it again.

In the meantime, if your avatar is a funny joke at a woman's expense, or has a suggestion of a penis in it, or if you think seeing it will make women uncomfortable, maybe you should get a new one?
drip.feed
tau_ceti wrote:
How is it that political discussions are banned but sexist imagery isn't?

Because people fall out over politics, but no-one falls out over breasts. That's the gist of it anyway, though it seems we may be moving into more enlightened times...
slow_riot
drip.feed wrote:

Because people fall out over politics, but no-one falls out over breasts.


if you genuinely believe that then you are living in patriarchal fantasy. almost all of my female friends have used #metoo to say they have been the victim of some form of sexual violence, some from the age of 9. So, no, no one suffers because of male desire of women's bodies, except for women, that is.
drip.feed
slow_riot wrote:
drip.feed wrote:

Because people fall out over politics, but no-one falls out over breasts.


if you genuinely believe that then you are living in patriarchal fantasy. almost all of my female friends have used #metoo to say they have been the victim of some form of sexual violence, some from the age of 9. So, no, no one suffers because of male desire of women's bodies, except for women, that is.


Nope, I don't believe that (I also don't agree with the no politics rule, or that we need to protect ourselves from robust discussion). My response was a paraphrasing of the original reason given on Muffwiggler long ago to the question "why nudity but no politics?"
sduck
tau_seti wrote:
with the admins all but absent from these kind of issues, I'm afraid nothing will be done.


Actually we are very much aware of these issues, and have weighed in numerous times about this. If you see something that is blatantly sexist, please report it, either directly to a mod or to the rule breaking thread in the Forum Discussion subforum and we will look into it. We can't be everywhere, don't assume that we've seen things and are ignoring them. Same for political issues.
Uvula_Fluorentine
I'm new here. This all started after my first post on this subject, I hope it is not my avatar that you are referring to. I have looked at it sideways and inside out and cannot see anything offensive, unless it is me personally, I am a woman of questionable credentials.
tau_seti
sduck wrote:
tau_seti wrote:
with the admins all but absent from these kind of issues, I'm afraid nothing will be done.


Actually we are very much aware of these issues, and have weighed in numerous times about this. If you see something that is blatantly sexist, please report it, either directly to a mod or to the rule breaking thread in the Forum Discussion subforum and we will look into it. We can't be everywhere, don't assume that we've seen things and are ignoring them. Same for political issues.


Thank you, and apologies for saying so. I agree, it's a big forum. I'll PM you if I see anything bad.
tau_seti
Most certainly not your avatar.
drip.feed
Uvula_Fluorentine wrote:
I'm new here. This all started after my first post on this subject, I hope it is not my avatar that you are referring to. I have looked at it sideways and inside out and cannot see anything offensive, unless it is me personally, I am a woman of questionable credentials.


BURN THE WITCH!!! you kids get off my lawn
Uvula_Fluorentine
I am conjuring (but wait, I'm back already) have conjured a spell to travel in time and have placed an explosive load in that cigar.

drip.feed
Ha ha ha! lol

I am sure Dr Freud would insist that my cigar was sexual too.
tau_seti