Muff's Modules & More

Waz · Posted: Wed Jan 18, 2012 7:39 am Post subject: SOPA/PIPA

*edit I know we're supposed to be non-political here, but seriously... All factions aside;

SOPA/PIPA plug... please write your respected officials....This goes for EVERY country. Let them know you will not stand for any kind of awful internet legislation. Please? For me?

*edit... best Anti_SOPA/PIPA gif I've seen so far.

PIPA is pretty much the same...

transferpoint · Posted: Wed Jan 18, 2012 7:45 am Post subject:

Agreed, today is supposed to be the blackout day and nobody is fucking participating... The whole internet should be dark in protest. SOPA/PIPA affects everyone.

bsmith · Posted: Wed Jan 18, 2012 8:11 am Post subject:

If you're in the states please write your reps and senators on this:

House:
https://writerep.house.gov/writerep/welcome.shtml

Senate:
http://www.senate.gov/general/contact_information/senators_cfm.cfm

Waz · Posted: Wed Jan 18, 2012 8:16 am Post subject:

panda30y · Posted: Wed Jan 18, 2012 8:25 am Post subject:

Waz · Posted: Wed Jan 18, 2012 8:30 am Post subject:

post deleted - redundant

Tobor · Posted: Wed Jan 18, 2012 9:23 am Post subject:

a little contribute here

http://www.gleetchplug.com

Waz · Posted: Wed Jan 18, 2012 10:43 am Post subject:

Just a bump before bed. hihi

jessem · Posted: Wed Jan 18, 2012 11:24 am Post subject:

I feel bad for any college students that have papers due tomorrow

obscurerobot · Posted: Wed Jan 18, 2012 12:22 pm Post subject:

phase ghost · Posted: Wed Jan 18, 2012 1:11 pm Post subject:

I've sent a million e-mails to congress about this shit. I think most people are against pirating and stealing and would like to see it stop. But, a "shut it down" button for the government is just wrong. Mostly, because it won't stop shit.

For one thing, they can't do shit about sites hosted in other countries. Torrenting software, which has nothing to do with regular websites being viewed through a browser, are the main sources for stealing movies and music. Not websites.

If this shit passes, mark my words, someone will write a browser with it's own custom markup language just to surf sites that pirate music and movies (if it doesn't exist already). Get rid of all the sites hosting "torrents" and someone will just call it something else. Where there's a will, there's a way.

stk · Posted: Wed Jan 18, 2012 4:21 pm Post subject:

True,
anyone remember Hotline? I sense a resurgence.

Rymf · Posted: Wed Jan 18, 2012 4:53 pm Post subject:

thepiratebay.onion

Neutron7 · Posted: Wed Jan 18, 2012 4:56 pm Post subject:

nrdvrgr · Posted: Wed Jan 18, 2012 5:19 pm Post subject:

No updates today, I am on strike...

/ www.nordvargr.com

dkcg · Posted: Wed Jan 18, 2012 5:28 pm Post subject:

rekem1000 · Posted: Wed Jan 18, 2012 7:10 pm Post subject:

from todays paper:

"....The last word should go to a Twitter user Sam Schillace – "Under SOPA, you could get five years for uploading a Michael Jackson song, one year more than the doctor who killed him."

Arturo00 · Posted: Wed Jan 18, 2012 8:33 pm Post subject:

This is pretty funny if it's true. And downright ridiculous. These morons are so clueless it's not even funny.

http://twitpic.com/88ueqz

chrisso · Posted: Wed Jan 18, 2012 8:34 pm Post subject:

Google, Facebook, Twitter not run by faceless billionaires seeking to control internet content? seriously, i just don't get it

The SOPA war isn't about huge media corps vs ordinary people, it's about huge web corps against any type of meaningful regulation of their activities.

Any notable collectives of musicians, songwriters, filmmakers, writers going public against SOPA? Or is it just Yahoo, Google, Wikipedia etc, etc?

chrisso · Posted: Wed Jan 18, 2012 10:03 pm Post subject:

Here's a fairly steady, unbiased view from another point of view:
http://www.copyhype.com/2011/11/dispatches-from-the-sopacolypse/

Peake · Posted: Wed Jan 18, 2012 10:53 pm Post subject:

Google say that 4.5 million Americans today signed the anti-SOPA petition!

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/technology/2012/01/google-anti-sopa-pe tition.html

timcoster · Posted: Wed Jan 18, 2012 11:01 pm Post subject:

This law is very strange - the thought of the whole of Facebook/Youtube/Google getting closed-down for "linking to illegal content" seems very unlikely to happen - so I wonder what will?

Dr. Sketch-n-Etch · Posted: Wed Jan 18, 2012 11:08 pm Post subject:

All I know is that the title of this thread is making me hungry for something deep fried and Mexican...
Drunken Homer Simpson

Rymf · Posted: Wed Jan 18, 2012 11:29 pm Post subject:

chrisso · Posted: Wed Jan 18, 2012 11:40 pm Post subject:

Actually Terry Hart is pretty well respected on both sides of the piracy debate.
Lessig...? Not so much.

What I find deeply sad is the outpouring of concern in this thread on behalf of Google and Facebook, while anyone concerned with piracy's impact on musicians is at best downplayed, at worst laughed at.
Huge tech corps with millions to spend lobbying and the ear of Congress and the presidency can look after themselves.
Average working musicians...? Not so much.
Would that people were so passionate and darkened the web for a day in protest against those who take music without asking and without paying.

Rymf · Posted: Wed Jan 18, 2012 11:47 pm Post subject:

stk · Posted: Wed Jan 18, 2012 11:53 pm Post subject:

Dr. Sketch-n-Etch · Posted: Wed Jan 18, 2012 11:55 pm Post subject:

What I find deeply sad is that any CD worth having is, like, $27. The fact is that the entertainment industry is full-to-bursting with multimillionaire fatcats who have skimmed all the profits, dumbed down the product, and stuck it to artists and consumers alike. In an age when one can make professional-sounding music on any laptop, I don't understand why all this stuff is so damned expensive. If CDs were $5 a pop, they'd sell a ton of them, because few would bother to download them illegally. I mean, after all, you get a nice case and booklet and everything!

Here in Vancouver, the big HMV store is closing, and they're having a big "sale". I went to see about all these amazing deals for myself. A boxed set of 5 or 6 30-year-old Pink Floyd albums for only $65! Wow, I just about shat myself. At this point, they should be giving that shit away.

There is so much amazing music out there that you never hear about because the music industry has done nothing to cultivate an appreciation for it. (In my dream world, guys like Ralph Towner (ever heard of him?) would be Lady-Gaga-level superstars.) I say let the industry die. Maybe something better will be reborn from the ashes.

chrisso · Posted: Wed Jan 18, 2012 11:58 pm Post subject:

If you don't think the people at Google or Facebook's Mark Zuckerberg are obscenely rich, then you are mightily naive.

If you don't think Google and Facebook are going to be crucial allies in this year's presidential race, and therefore wield unprecedented power, you are mightily naive.
Honestly I think you should be more concerned over the wealth, power and political reach of Google and Facebook.
But the real victims of piracy are ordinary film makers, musicians, photographers. But you've bought into the web propaganda.

chrisso · Posted: Thu Jan 19, 2012 12:01 am Post subject:

stk · Posted: Thu Jan 19, 2012 12:02 am Post subject:

Oh yeah, I couldn't care less about the "Music Industry", I'm talking about independent music etc.
Besides I don't think they have an obligation to cultivate interest in new music. They are a business, in it to make money.
Anyone with half a brain ignores that shit and finds their own way anyways.

I've actually met people who had no qualms in freely admitting that they'd got all my albums off a torrent.
Kinda flattering, in a weird way, but still seriously, i just don't get it

Rymf · Posted: Thu Jan 19, 2012 12:02 am Post subject:

These organizations:

do not give a fraction of a fuck about the needs or livelihoods of working artists.

Why any of you would be under the impression that their lobbying efforts have any purpose but to further line the pockets of their executives and shareholders is completely beyond my comprehension.

chrisso · Posted: Thu Jan 19, 2012 12:06 am Post subject:

stk · Posted: Thu Jan 19, 2012 12:07 am Post subject:

Rymf, the exact same could be said about Google, Facebook etc.

As usual it's all about the money.

chrisso · Posted: Thu Jan 19, 2012 12:08 am Post subject:

chrisso · Posted: Thu Jan 19, 2012 12:11 am Post subject:

mckenic · Posted: Thu Jan 19, 2012 12:18 am Post subject:

General posting rules

Please do not upload or post links to downloads of copyrighted material – music, books, articles etc..
If you're not sure whether it is ok to post something or not please contact one of the admins for advice.
http://www.muffwiggler.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=14901

No threats of violence.

No bigotry or intolerance of race, age, sexual preference etc..

No politics.

seriously, i just don't get it

Just sayin!
Im in 100% agreement with anti-SOPA & what you guys are saying BTW!

Dr. Sketch-n-Etch · Posted: Thu Jan 19, 2012 12:47 am Post subject:

chrisso · Posted: Thu Jan 19, 2012 12:53 am Post subject:

But Roland sell 1 million groove modules and you sell 100 Dr Octatures.
That's just the nature of life.
I don't see any need to berate the mainstream synth companies, or their customers.
Lady GaGa is enormously popular. I can't stand it myself.
But I buy music and financially support artists who are more adventurous and suit my taste.
I'm disappointed you posted what you did earlier. Towner has had a fantastic career courtesy of ECM. I've met a few ECM artists, and know independent (non label) jazz artists and seen their greater hardships.
ECM was funded and partnered by the following major music labels by the way:

Dr. Sketch-n-Etch · Posted: Thu Jan 19, 2012 1:30 am Post subject:

Rymf · Posted: Thu Jan 19, 2012 1:32 am Post subject:

chrisso · Posted: Thu Jan 19, 2012 1:37 am Post subject:

chrisso · Posted: Thu Jan 19, 2012 1:49 am Post subject:

Dr. Sketch-n-Etch · Posted: Thu Jan 19, 2012 1:51 am Post subject:

chrisso · Posted: Thu Jan 19, 2012 2:03 am Post subject:

Rymf · Posted: Thu Jan 19, 2012 2:16 am Post subject:

Dr. Sketch-n-Etch · Posted: Thu Jan 19, 2012 2:21 am Post subject:

OK, chrisso, you win. I've said what I wanted to say. Movin' on.

chrisso · Posted: Thu Jan 19, 2012 2:59 am Post subject:

chrisso · Posted: Thu Jan 19, 2012 3:08 am Post subject:

Rymf · Posted: Thu Jan 19, 2012 3:47 am Post subject:

First off:

chrisso · Posted: Thu Jan 19, 2012 3:56 am Post subject:

CJ Miller · Posted: Thu Jan 19, 2012 5:14 am Post subject:

Censorship is much riskier than an artist getting their royalties. If your content can be taken down, you lose piracy AND voluntary exposure as well. Mass media is market-populism, where the most popular views are credited as being real, and anything else is deliberately avoided. The internet is important because it is the first time ever that nearly anyone can publish their ideas or communicate with others anywhere with no restrictions, often even for free. The ability of any of us here to throw up a website makes us an internet equal with multinational corporations. This is because marginal groups spend most of their resources trying to disseminate information, while affluent groups spend most of theirs trying to control (limit) information.

Net censorship controlled by media companies would be no better than it is on television. Just like I would not buy a phone which forbids certain types of conversation, nor a pen which refuses to write certain words. This is corporate monoculture at work, and it runs contrary to the ideological diversity which life depends on

Veqtor · Posted: Thu Jan 19, 2012 5:18 am Post subject:

SOPA and PIPA would have no noticeable effect on piracy whatsoever. Pirates are notorious for their ability to adapt. They'd just encrypt and hide. What would happen however, is that when the next youtube-thing comes along, it's viacom equivalent would be able to shut it down.

This must be the purpose of the bill, either that or they're just stupid. The only thing it will provide is a tool for the big boys to pick on the little fellows. Forget shutting down the pirate bay etc, you can't do it, or you can but then you'd have to shut down or severly cripple the internet.

These corporations blame piracy when they really know that people spend more money on music, movies and games, but, they spend less on the products of these mega-corporations. Why? Well now that information is so freely available, people make informed decisions based on fact and trying things out, not advertising. This is the real threat of the free internet to these guys and that's why they want to stop it. (or they're just really really stupid and I'm paranoid)

chrisso · Posted: Thu Jan 19, 2012 7:12 am Post subject:

Rymf · Posted: Thu Jan 19, 2012 1:45 pm Post subject:

From this letter signed by over 80 prominent engineers and network experts, some of whom so accomplished that without their work the Internet literally would not exist:

Monobass · Posted: Thu Jan 19, 2012 2:16 pm Post subject:

Dr. Sketch-n-Etch · Posted: Thu Jan 19, 2012 2:29 pm Post subject:

jake · Posted: Thu Jan 19, 2012 2:35 pm Post subject:

here is my view, im 16 i torrent to my hearts content, i would never be able to afford £300 for ableton or the amount that waves costs so thats the reason i do it. and you know what? im all for some legislation to stop piracy but doing it the way the US wants to is just wrong. the internet was designed to be "free" and clearly its not going to be free, im in the UK and this act may not effect me NOW but it will in time, as soon as the US brings these things in, other countries will follow, i think that the way to stop piracy is simple

beat the pirates

in my opinion the companies should be looking at ways of beating the pirates through services and better content. they should compete with them to offer a service where there is no need to torrent because its so good and competitive. companies have become so "we need more money" these days and that makes me think of the reason people torrent. whats wrong with people using your music in your videos? it generates publicity after all and do they claim its there own track that they produced? no

that is all d'oh!

Monobass · Posted: Thu Jan 19, 2012 3:46 pm Post subject:

You can't afford 300 for software but you are building a modular synth?

stk · Posted: Thu Jan 19, 2012 3:50 pm Post subject:

Jake - a word of advice for you.
There are completely affordable (and often free) alternatives to mainstream music software, that are just as good, sometimes IMO better.

I'm sure we all, well most of us, have pirated software at one time or another. I promised myself I would buy all my software the moment my music made any money, and kept the promise. (Lucky for me I hadn't bought into the overpriced Waves hype.)
I urge you to at least do the same.

Regarding your second point, it's easy to point ones finger at the big bad "Companies", but there are also legions of musicians, producers, engineers etc out there who are routinely feeling the bite of piracy.
You haven't commercially released any music yet (or software, etc), but I have a feeling your views might be somewhat adjusted the day you do so, and then see it all over the Torrent sites.

Just ask one of the musicians or software developers who frequent this forum. Is that greed? I really think not.

I'm not defending SOPA, I'm just calling for a little less big bad corporate hyperbole (hey, I distrust the suits as much as the next guy, probably more so) and a bit more balance.

Cheers,
Skye

Veqtor · Posted: Thu Jan 19, 2012 3:51 pm Post subject:

jake · Posted: Thu Jan 19, 2012 4:01 pm Post subject:

Yea, i have always said that the moment i make money i buy the software, and yea i was more talking about software than anything else, im a good egg when it comes to music, i buy it all. I realise all the hard work that goes into music production. I do with software but i cant afford £300 for ableton. I find 99p for a single isnt too bad ;)

Veqtor · Posted: Thu Jan 19, 2012 4:03 pm Post subject:

chrisso · Posted: Thu Jan 19, 2012 4:05 pm Post subject:

jake · Posted: Thu Jan 19, 2012 4:10 pm Post subject:

No modular any more :( im also selling my dark energy

chrisso · Posted: Thu Jan 19, 2012 4:14 pm Post subject:

chrisso · Posted: Thu Jan 19, 2012 4:17 pm Post subject:

Monobass · Posted: Thu Jan 19, 2012 4:26 pm Post subject:

aumgn · Posted: Thu Jan 19, 2012 4:46 pm Post subject: Re: SOPA/PIPA

ive come to believe most protest is pointless.

In time things will change naturally.

chrisso · Posted: Thu Jan 19, 2012 5:30 pm Post subject:

Veqtor · Posted: Thu Jan 19, 2012 5:53 pm Post subject:

The issue isn't wether piracy is right or wrong, it's the fact that putting the power of tampering with DNS servers without a court order, into the hands of ONLY the largest media corporations, is not the right way to deal with piracy. Especially, now that bittorrent is becoming independent of trackers. It doesn't even make sense, not a single track would go unpirated if this bill was passed.

Christopher Winkels · Posted: Thu Jan 19, 2012 6:27 pm Post subject:

I for one look forward to the day when all this anti-piracy legislation shuts down those evil folks, leading to a utopian situation where tens of millions of musicians, visual artists, poets and other creative types can all live a solid, remunerative middle-class existence just like they did back in the days before the intern.... oh... wait... never mind.

chrisso · Posted: Thu Jan 19, 2012 6:31 pm Post subject:

chrisso · Posted: Thu Jan 19, 2012 6:34 pm Post subject:

Christopher Winkels · Posted: Thu Jan 19, 2012 6:40 pm Post subject:

I'm sure a lot of them did at points in their lives, yes. What's wrong with a day job?

Most musicians I knew 15 years ago lived a hand to mouth existence. Most musicans I know now live a hand to mouth existence. Online piracy hasn't dented their income prospects one iota because they never made any significant money from recordings to begin with.

Monobass · Posted: Thu Jan 19, 2012 6:49 pm Post subject:

chrisso · Posted: Thu Jan 19, 2012 6:55 pm Post subject:

chrisso · Posted: Thu Jan 19, 2012 6:58 pm Post subject:

Monobass · Posted: Thu Jan 19, 2012 7:01 pm Post subject:

chrisso · Posted: Thu Jan 19, 2012 7:15 pm Post subject:

She's neither a dick Lolhammer!

or a 'corporate shill'. hyper

Monobass · Posted: Thu Jan 19, 2012 7:28 pm Post subject:

yeah, I think you know it wasn't her I was calling a dick wink

chrisso · Posted: Thu Jan 19, 2012 7:32 pm Post subject:

She isn't a 'corporate shill' either.
How do you pay for your food and accommodation?
Presumably via a non capitalist, non compromised income source that is true to your anti-corporate attitudes. hmmm.....

Arturo00 · Posted: Thu Jan 19, 2012 7:39 pm Post subject:

And so it begins...

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/mobileweb/2012/01/19/anonymous-megauploa d_n_1217418.html

chrisso · Posted: Thu Jan 19, 2012 7:41 pm Post subject:

http://www.muffwiggler.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=50918

Monobass · Posted: Thu Jan 19, 2012 8:01 pm Post subject:

Norman_Phay · Posted: Thu Jan 19, 2012 8:06 pm Post subject:

http://www.scribd.com/doc/78786408/Mega-Indictment

Norman_Phay · Posted: Thu Jan 19, 2012 8:09 pm Post subject:

Some fucking document!

chrisso · Posted: Thu Jan 19, 2012 8:09 pm Post subject:

Dr. Sketch-n-Etch · Posted: Thu Jan 19, 2012 9:19 pm Post subject:

chrisso · Posted: Thu Jan 19, 2012 9:48 pm Post subject:

Just a little background on the dude the FBI are after:

jake · Posted: Fri Jan 20, 2012 1:54 am Post subject:

In regards to the dark energy, i traded it for modules, oops

Veqtor · Posted: Fri Jan 20, 2012 4:29 am Post subject:

chrisso · Posted: Fri Jan 20, 2012 5:29 am Post subject:

Great article about the day the net went dark:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/music/musicblog/2012/jan/19/behind-music-ant i-piracy-legislation

ringstone · Posted: Fri Jan 20, 2012 6:40 am Post subject:

chrisso · Posted: Fri Jan 20, 2012 6:45 am Post subject:

Yeah, I'm really not an Orlowski fan at all.
The rest of the piece was pretty good though...... and from the point of view of an independent songwriter, rather than a 'web expert'.

jbartee · Posted: Fri Jan 20, 2012 12:01 pm Post subject:

SOPA and PIPA are no more.

http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/news/2012/01/internet-wins-sopa-and -pipa-both-shelved.ars?utm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=rss

Rymf · Posted: Fri Jan 20, 2012 2:27 pm Post subject:

As usual, Marco Arment cuts through the bullshit: The Next SOPA

jbartee · Posted: Fri Jan 20, 2012 2:35 pm Post subject:

chrisso · Posted: Fri Jan 20, 2012 3:54 pm Post subject:

UUUgh.
A wholly negative article.
Not once does the writer point out that if you bought your music and your movies, and thus supported the creative scene proposals like SOPA would never have emerged.
Amazing really that in a whole article the writer berates the MPAA constantly and never once mentions film makers or musicians. The latter is what this is all about.
And I must add I'm saddened, nay shocked, that on a forum such as this the actual musicians barely get a mention while people rail against pretty much any attempt to stem piracy.
BUt hey, the saying rings true, Turkeys don't vote for CHristmas, and music consumers obviously don't vote to reduce free music, even if it's killing new music.
waah

GeneralBigBag · Posted: Fri Jan 20, 2012 5:39 pm Post subject:

Chrisso, would you be open to the idea of anti-piracy legislation that didn't waive due process?

Also, this 'killing new music' thing. What on earth are you basing that on? Is it the thriving bass music scene? The revival of ambient music? The diversification of US noise? The sheer volume of output coming from the H-Pop crowd?

I can barely keep up with all of the amazing new music coming out, I can't imagine what it would be like if the scene wasn't being killed.

Rymf · Posted: Fri Jan 20, 2012 5:41 pm Post subject:

Jonathan Coulton weighs in.

Arturo00 · Posted: Fri Jan 20, 2012 5:46 pm Post subject:

Arturo00 · Posted: Fri Jan 20, 2012 5:55 pm Post subject:

chrisso · Posted: Fri Jan 20, 2012 7:11 pm Post subject:

chrisso · Posted: Fri Jan 20, 2012 7:12 pm Post subject:

GeneralBigBag · Posted: Fri Jan 20, 2012 7:28 pm Post subject:

chrisso · Posted: Fri Jan 20, 2012 7:32 pm Post subject:

GeneralBigBag · Posted: Fri Jan 20, 2012 7:36 pm Post subject:

chrisso · Posted: Fri Jan 20, 2012 7:45 pm Post subject:

Veqtor · Posted: Fri Jan 20, 2012 7:52 pm Post subject:

chrisso · Posted: Fri Jan 20, 2012 8:20 pm Post subject:

Aren't most games played online, and therefore piracy of games is much less an issue?
I also don't know how you can keep reading my posts and still think I'm talking about SOPA.
I first posted to counter the 'all labels are evil', 'if music was better i would pay for it' bull.
I was just asked if there were any artists who were in favour of SOPA and I merely obliged with some links I'd come across.
But the main game is music piracy.

Jaron Lanier:
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/19/opinion/sopa-boycotts-and-the-false- ideals-of-the-web.html?_r=1&src=tp

kindredlost · Posted: Fri Jan 20, 2012 8:46 pm Post subject:

Internet. Pfffft. Built by the CIA and Pentagon. Go figure.

The whole point is to spy on us for Wall Street trend gain and potential civil unrest. So when they want to regulate the internet when we are waking up to full-on tyranny and find the internet the best way to share the concern... no surprise here.

People somehow want Kindle, cloud tech, digital social networking, & desktop from home etc..

Go buy a CD at a brick & mortar store. (boycott Amazon)

Read a forest-killed actual book. (boycott Amazon)

Meet your local friends at a bar. (boycott Facebook)

Archive your files on a cheap hard drive. (boycott DropBox, iCloud etc)

Go to work. (boycott Go To Meeting)

These are good ways to poke a sharp stick in the eye of the legislature. Reserve the internet for searching with Scroogle and talking to fellow Wigglers.

So far the best reply I've read...

Monobass · Posted: Sun Jan 22, 2012 2:54 pm Post subject:

chrisso · Posted: Sun Jan 22, 2012 5:39 pm Post subject:

Monobass · Posted: Sun Jan 22, 2012 6:04 pm Post subject:

Come back when you've read the book 'Capitalist Realism' by Mark Fisher, then we can have a meaningful discussion.

chrisso · Posted: Sun Jan 22, 2012 6:12 pm Post subject:

Or.... you could simply answer a simple question and by doing so presumably 1) put me on the spot and 2) destroy my argument.

Interestingly you never do.

I'm not passing negative judgements on your career decisions.
You are passing negative judgements on others.
I'm 'lol a dick' and Cianni is 'a corporate shill'.
But you can't apparently back that up with your own no compromise catalogue of released music, or evidence of no compromise in the work place - being able to buy food, rent or own a home and buy synthesizers, a computer and pay for an internet connection.
Seems like your mantra is more do as I say, but don't do as I do.

chrisso · Posted: Sun Jan 22, 2012 6:15 pm Post subject:

Monobass · Posted: Sun Jan 22, 2012 6:27 pm Post subject:

I've not really any interest in engaging with someone from the eighties.

chrisso · Posted: Sun Jan 22, 2012 6:47 pm Post subject:

I'm from the nineteen fifties.
And old enough to know that if someone can't answer simple questions, it's because they have something to hide.
SlayerBadger!

Monobass · Posted: Sun Jan 22, 2012 6:57 pm Post subject:

or just want to annoy you

Dr. Sketch-n-Etch · Posted: Sun Jan 22, 2012 7:05 pm Post subject:

This has been a reasonably interesting discussion so far.

I can't help feeling that, when it comes to internet piracy, it may already be too late to save the patient. I know a lot of kids who haven't paid for music, literally, for years. For some the whole concept of paying for music is utterly foreign. Their computers are hooked into torrent sites 24/7. This is a simple fact.

The sale of recorded music is something that has only been technologically possible since about the 1920s. (The history of recorded music is also the history of feckless musicians entering into exploitative contracts with record companies who often treated their artists as little more than indentured servants, but that's another story.) Before that, musicians made their livings by performing, and from patronage and commissions. Those times may be returning. Indeed, they may already be here.

In the 90s (or was it the 80s?), the recording industry killed an entire recording technology (Digital Audio Tape, anyone?) to prevent digital piracy, but they knew they were just delaying the inevitable. The internet has just made piracy way too easy, and since it is now the default for so many people, I doubt it can be stopped, no matter how draconian the legislative tools. That's why I said before that it looks like another "war on drugs" in the making.

The whole concept of paying for recorded music may soon become one of those stories we tell our children, like air travel before security checks.

chrisso · Posted: Sun Jan 22, 2012 7:24 pm Post subject:

Rymf · Posted: Sun Jan 22, 2012 7:32 pm Post subject:

chrisso · Posted: Sun Jan 22, 2012 7:38 pm Post subject:

Say's U2's millionaire producer (of recordings). hmmm.....

If recorded music = whale blubber, what live music do you consume at home?
No one needs whale blubber anymore, but recorded music..........?

Dr. Sketch-n-Etch · Posted: Sun Jan 22, 2012 7:45 pm Post subject:

I'm not really disagreeing with you, chrisso. I just think that that train has left the station. The damage is done.

Thinking back on my own life as a "consumer" of music, I have to say that only a tiny fraction of my purchases ever directly enriched the artists. Most of my records (like 80%) were bought from a used record store. I went through a period in the 90s when I was buying a lot of CDs, but I stopped. At some point, it simply became not very much fun.

DGTom · Posted: Sun Jan 22, 2012 7:49 pm Post subject:

yep, Brian Eno won the lottery - he was in the right place at the right time, the guy with the whale blubber. I doubt very much he'd deny that.

The differance being he doesn't (seem to) want to punish people for not winning the lottery.

Prohibition doesn't work & legislation isn't going to sell more records.

I would much rather see govt.s sink money into education & the arts than drafting, debating & trying to implement bad laws. Thomas Jefferson once said something about grown men being forced to wear childrens clothes, but, I think Adonis said it best;

Monobass · Posted: Sun Jan 22, 2012 7:51 pm Post subject:

chrisso · Posted: Sun Jan 22, 2012 7:55 pm Post subject:

chrisso · Posted: Sun Jan 22, 2012 8:01 pm Post subject:

chrisso · Posted: Sun Jan 22, 2012 8:12 pm Post subject:

Which most closely resembles a lottery winner?

DGTom · Posted: Sun Jan 22, 2012 8:21 pm Post subject:

I'm not dissagreeing with you on the fundamental problem chrisso.

the scenraio is that consumers can choose to pay for music or not. Making harder & faster laws will not in any meaningfull way change that, short of just unplugging teh tubes & stopping the spice flow.

Just because I think there must be a better way than a Third Front does that mean I lack empathy? wow.

anti-piracy laws do not equal "some financial support in order to fund their continued creativity. "

I'm sorry I used the lottery analogy, its not about the money, of course no one is asking to win the lottery, you're a smart guy c'mon, the fact is that there was a model for making a living, people made great stuff & made a good living doing it, its changed, no War On Piracy is going to change it back.

Again. I would rather see tax payers (any tax payers, anywhere) money being put to use working with the creative end of the industry in creating solutions that address the need for NEW revenue streams, better educated consumers & generally anything that isn't trying to artifically prop up an obsolete model so that some people (very few people really) can continue to asymmetrically benefit from the situation - wether they be pirates or 'media moguls'

chinard · Posted: Sun Jan 22, 2012 8:24 pm Post subject:

wow..

all the preaching in this thread makes me want to go pirate some music

DGTom · Posted: Sun Jan 22, 2012 8:30 pm Post subject:

What more tagic proof could you need that the traditional model is fundamentally flawed seriously, i just don't get it

If 'trickle down' worked Clyde Stubblefield would be living comfortable, economically speaking - that would at least make the rest a little easier to deal with.

Even if everyone that ever sampled him, ever, had paid for every sample would he see any of that money?

chrisso · Posted: Sun Jan 22, 2012 8:32 pm Post subject:

chrisso · Posted: Sun Jan 22, 2012 8:35 pm Post subject:

DGTom · Posted: Sun Jan 22, 2012 8:55 pm Post subject:

the music industry has engendered alot of bad will on the part of consumers, pirates have been really successfull in exploiting this. SOPA/PIPA have actually helped the pirates cause in the short term by refocussing alot of that bad will.

You can't blame the general public for having an image of 'the biz' as a non-stop carnivale of coke snorting millionaires when that's the image it's projected. You can't blame the average consumer for having a skewed idea after the industry has done its utmost to obfuscate & hide what it really does for so long.

Good will sells records (um, not the charity shop, tho I'm sure they do as well) not legislation.

Turning the problem into a 'Law & Order' ticket item is only in the interests of those with short term political goals not people trying to get by on their art.

bsmith · Posted: Sun Jan 22, 2012 9:10 pm Post subject:

They've engendered even worse will on the part of those of us that have had to deal with them. The majors are basically banks that make loans that have awful terms to artists, have a marketing apparatus, and a now irrelevant distribution system. This idea that they're some kind of champion of the artist or something is totally absurd. Performance royalties are where it's at anyway - fuck 'em.

ndkent · Posted: Sun Jan 22, 2012 9:14 pm Post subject:

What people IMHO should learn from this is analogies and half baked comparisons do little with the complexity of an injustice.

Coming up with dumbed down conclusions based on fuzzy analogies doesn't solve anything

Not supporting this does not equal supporting piracy.

To be even handed I'd say protecting property rights doesn't mean you want to shut down the internet either

I do cringe at the "it's a start", "we have to do something". I mean isn't Swift's "A Modest Proposal" a predatory start at solving a problem and doing something?

Rymf · Posted: Sun Jan 22, 2012 9:15 pm Post subject:

EAT ALL THE PIRATES

chrisso · Posted: Sun Jan 22, 2012 9:18 pm Post subject:

chrisso · Posted: Sun Jan 22, 2012 9:25 pm Post subject:

Rymf · Posted: Sun Jan 22, 2012 9:41 pm Post subject:

I know I said I'd ignore you, but this is just too much:

chrisso · Posted: Sun Jan 22, 2012 9:46 pm Post subject:

Pirates are not bad?

Lately you are contributing little to ideas and debate in the discussion other than pointing a negative finger at me.
At least DG Tom and Dr Etch-A-Sketch are putting forward some heartfelt views.

Rymf · Posted: Sun Jan 22, 2012 9:52 pm Post subject:

If we're defining "pirates" as "any person who uploads/downloads any copyrighted material freely to/from the internet," then the answer is no.

The only thing I've stopped contributing to this thread is any material argument directed towards you.

I don't see the point.

DGTom · Posted: Sun Jan 22, 2012 9:54 pm Post subject:

Pirates (the old rum swilling, sea dog type) actually played an important role in the transition from feudal to capitalist economies.

Even as just a catalytic agent the modern variant may actually be filling a similar niche.

It's an interesting word.

Who is the modern, digital equivelant to the Privateer?

Rymf · Posted: Sun Jan 22, 2012 9:57 pm Post subject:

Rymf · Posted: Sun Jan 22, 2012 10:04 pm Post subject:

Paulo Coelho's thoughts

chrisso · Posted: Sun Jan 22, 2012 10:07 pm Post subject:

chrisso · Posted: Sun Jan 22, 2012 10:08 pm Post subject:

Rymf · Posted: Sun Jan 22, 2012 10:14 pm Post subject:

chrisso · Posted: Sun Jan 22, 2012 10:28 pm Post subject:

Rymf · Posted: Sun Jan 22, 2012 10:30 pm Post subject:

Rymf · Posted: Sun Jan 22, 2012 10:30 pm Post subject:

chrisso · Posted: Sun Jan 22, 2012 10:51 pm Post subject:

Kirk Degiorgio · Posted: Sun Jan 22, 2012 10:58 pm Post subject:

wow - OK... firstly, I thought C.J. Miller's post was bang on the money but didn't seem to get much discussion:

bsmith · Posted: Mon Jan 23, 2012 12:31 pm Post subject:

There was this band from Dallas that was signed to Geffen in the late 80s, everybody was very excited for them. They went off to Wales to record their album. By the time they came back, the producer had persuaded the chick singer - who was all the label cared about really - to fire the drummer and bring in a session guy, and to replace a bunch of the guitar players parts with someone else's stuff. Cheesy keyboards were lopped on top. They turned a band we liked into hamburger meat which would do well on the radio, which it did, and the band was turned in on itself. We who had loved them were so disappointed at what all had happened. Devastated even. The singer - she married an old 60s hero, after some time realized she'd allowed the label to pretty much have their way with her friends to no good end, and that she'd lost all humility during that period. And the rest of the original band are now 40-something musicians doing their best to scratch by. They're all great musicians now, and they were all great musicians then. Regardless of what the labels producer wanted. They get back together, the original band, and now can do what they want without a major label fucking things up.
Now, were the labels interests (and those who were brought in to dismantle what that band was about) in any way, shape, or form interested in the least in the well being of those kids?
Does this ring a bell? A cool thing was turned into pop garbage. Congratufuckinglations.
Anyway, how the riaa has become relevant in a discussion on sopa is a mystery, they're riding the mpaa's coat-tails on this thing. At the end of the day the idea behind sopa and pipa and the like are to have a way to fuck dns over.

drewtoothpaste · Posted: Mon Jan 23, 2012 12:57 pm Post subject:

The decline of the CD and record label, and concomitant rise of Amazon MP3 and iTunes, has been a boon to me personally.

When I had to press CDs and sell CDs, listeners preferred to pirate my music out of convenience.

Now that they have a stable, legal place to download my music and listen to it, they pay $6 or $8 an album, and based on stats from the bigger torrent sites, they pay for an album vs. torrent it twenty to one.

I've made $13,000 in download royalties in the past four years. That's not a huge amount, but it's kept my home studio running and paid for a few things around the house.

2012 is a great year to be a musician. We can deliver our music directly to our listeners and take home 70% of the royalties. Large-scale piracy exists but is so much less convenient that I believe most of the people who pirate my work wouldn't be buying it anyway if the torrent sites were down.

Kirk Degiorgio · Posted: Mon Jan 23, 2012 1:05 pm Post subject:

pretty irrelevant to the discussion... to justify piracy as some sort of divine punishment for the cynical business practices of major labels is ridiculous.

Chrisso has clearly stated - without any argument - that piracy affects tens of thousands of artists who have no dealings whatsoever with major labels.

I am one of those artists and by using my experience as a typical case study, I tried to present how piracy affects me (both in a negative - actual physical product sales, and positive sense - increased exposure coupled to legal digital sales).

On balance, it seems the current situation has benefitted my career more than hindered it.

That's not why I oppose SOPA though. Media corporations influencing law makers to control how and what is disseminated via the internet is a ghastly thought.

bsmith · Posted: Mon Jan 23, 2012 1:18 pm Post subject:

Incredible. Just really grossed out now that I know who has been saying this crap, sorry. Look back at what drew just said, because it's true. Do you have an idea of what the point structure for artists is(was) like when distribution, manufacturing, production and every other thing in the world is taken before an artist under label contract can even begin to recoup on mechanical royalties? But if you're a session musician who's in with a label bubba club, hey who gives a fuck, the label is who's cutting the check regardless of how the product does, better look out for them....

Kirk Degiorgio · Posted: Mon Jan 23, 2012 1:25 pm Post subject:

you've lost me... who and what r u talking about?

bsmith · Posted: Mon Jan 23, 2012 1:33 pm Post subject:

That little story a few posts back. Sounds like your adapting with a changing for the better market Kirk, good for you. I need to cool down here so gonna zip it.
edit (and cooled down. apologies - hey don't want any poison here. I can't blame a guy for playing a session that had fucked up circumstances leading to the guy being there. Thinking about some of the things I've played bass on - kind of hypocritical for me to fault anyone else for just making a living, because honestly I've been kind of in identical situations, and more than once. Pretty defensive of my friends. Also apologies to all for being cryptic about what the hell I'm talking about... but I'd better just leave it there). Peace.

Rymf · Posted: Mon Jan 23, 2012 4:37 pm Post subject:

Rymf · Posted: Mon Jan 23, 2012 4:49 pm Post subject:

One more:

Given Mickey Mouse's role in the extension of copyright and erosion of fair use, this is pretty hilarious.

chrisso · Posted: Mon Jan 23, 2012 5:11 pm Post subject:

chrisso · Posted: Mon Jan 23, 2012 5:15 pm Post subject:

bsmith · Posted: Mon Jan 23, 2012 5:31 pm Post subject:

chrisso · Posted: Mon Jan 23, 2012 5:31 pm Post subject:

bsmith · Posted: Mon Jan 23, 2012 5:35 pm Post subject:

Getting replaced on stuff you thought you did ok on blows!!!! T-shirt gotten! Being the guy that does the replacing can feel icky too.

chrisso · Posted: Mon Jan 23, 2012 5:46 pm Post subject:

bsmith · Posted: Mon Jan 23, 2012 5:48 pm Post subject:

i wrote you privately on the a&r thing saying oops ouch. We're going around at the same time in a circular door. Was just trying to figure out what your role in the industry was because it was unclear to me at the time, so was trying to extrapolate based on the opinions you were stating. And it was just my initial reaction, because it hit close to home - I need to learn to count to 20. Seriously, peace.

chrisso · Posted: Mon Jan 23, 2012 5:55 pm Post subject:

bsmith · Posted: Mon Jan 23, 2012 6:16 pm Post subject:

Try trombone player. At north texas in the directory they're listed under the category 'deadaxe'.
Back on the sopa tip...
I have a point of view that is negative towards it which has nothing to do with motion pictures or music.
I'm a medium size website publisher (cooking), get about 10k uniques a day during average traffic times of year, quite a bit more during the holidays. The content on my site I either pay writers for or is user submitted. The user submitted stuff I clear with publishers to the best of my ability before it goes live to the public. I verify that a submitted recipe is cleared with publishers if possible. Quite often though I'll get one that says 'from grammas cookie index card box' or whatever, and so those I communicate with the submitter "you sure this is original?" before letting it go live. It's the better part of what I do. I've had a couple situations where some other publisher will get with me angrily saying that I've taken their stuff and I'd better take it down or there will be trouble. (And p.s. you can't copyright an array of food items or the order and method their put together in - but that's neither here nor there).And so that gets dealt with however. My concern on this kind of legislation is that it can become a competitive weapon of sorts, and the kind of penalty (basically having your dns stifled) is just a bit nuclear. I mean there is already the dmca, and it may not be totally effective, but what is being proposed is just way way too heavy handed. I mean this site, muffs, let's say some guy is spouting off about something authoritatively and it turns out he's copy pasting content from somewhere else without attribution. Well that puts mike's ass on the line and he didn't even know it was put there until without any due process the site is yanked from dns. My whole 'fuck the major labels!' thing aside - I know piracy is a huge problem, but it seems to me that handing out these kinds of penalizing tools without due process is dangerous for the net as a whole, and for someone like me, kinda scary.

chrisso · Posted: Mon Jan 23, 2012 7:02 pm Post subject:

Like I said from my first post and repeatedly - I'm not here to support SOPA or argue with those who don't support it.
I'm hear to argue with those who don't think piracy is hurting a significant sector of the musicians community. I'm arguing against those that say 'record label' or 'music industry' = corruption, sleaze and cheating musicians. I'm essentially arguing against free music, free information as a core goal, because I think it shouldn't remove people's right to choose, and I don't think most of society is moving that way.
Give me a free computer, a free internet connection, free food, board and power, and I'll happily give back by sharing my music with no fee.

aumgn · Posted: Mon Jan 23, 2012 7:09 pm Post subject:

[quote="chrisso"]

chrisso · Posted: Mon Jan 23, 2012 7:16 pm Post subject:

before · Posted: Mon Jan 23, 2012 7:30 pm Post subject:

Jason Brock · Posted: Mon Jan 23, 2012 7:43 pm Post subject:

chrisso · Posted: Mon Jan 23, 2012 7:48 pm Post subject:

Rymf · Posted: Mon Jan 23, 2012 8:20 pm Post subject:

Dr. Sketch-n-Etch · Posted: Mon Jan 23, 2012 9:16 pm Post subject:

chrisso · Posted: Mon Jan 23, 2012 9:56 pm Post subject:

chrisso · Posted: Mon Jan 23, 2012 10:00 pm Post subject:

Dr. Sketch-n-Etch · Posted: Mon Jan 23, 2012 10:10 pm Post subject:

chrisso · Posted: Mon Jan 23, 2012 10:18 pm Post subject:

I use we-send-it*, which I assume is not under threat from recent takedown activity.

* exclusively for delivering my own created work.

de_raaf · Posted: Mon Jan 23, 2012 10:43 pm Post subject:

i haven't read the whole thread, but to me the industry and media or more quite to blame why people want stuff legal or non legal, why because we are all getting pushed to get all the new stuff, this new band, that aka consume, so when you can get stuff for free, it become kind of what they want, except moneywise people are getting smarter, and use their money for stuff the can't download or find for not much, like other luxe products the newest cellphone, or whatever, or modular crack they need to keep up with. music is a social form and even without a lot of money a lot of people still want to hear what's around of music in the world, hear the stuff that gets pushed, or what the can research themselves. . its more that the music industry made a trap for themselves unknowingly through the power of internet, even when Internet is controlled, i don't think the will sell a massive load of more records, but i do think more people are able to get exposed to different music
late night ramble

chrisso · Posted: Mon Jan 23, 2012 10:51 pm Post subject:

de_raaf · Posted: Mon Jan 23, 2012 11:13 pm Post subject:

also i feel music has a big social( for yourself or more group or peer like) function that way its stolen or download without much care in a bigger way because of that need, than for instance you can get free cellphones or something i think (you probably don't need 50 of them), its a very in the greyzone, for a lot people music is the strength that keep them going in this world, yet we are consumer minded and very curious creatures, so i guess music has a weird relationship when its comes down for being a product in our economical system , vs the share how mechanical that also is i feel it kind reflects to a more need of sharing stuff with other people, no matter how cold it comes over in this time of all sitting behind that computer that we can't live without in this time and age, yet its able to connect with the whole world if you want. i guess it kind of shows we want to reconnect with others, that why music is hard to place in the whole thing, you can't really see it as a commercial product alone, yet musicians deserve an income, yet its about sharing experiences, stories or visions through the music, making human contact through soundwavs

Waz · Posted: Tue Jan 24, 2012 12:31 am Post subject:

Ok...I'll jump into the lions pit.

I honestly think the record companies and film companies are grasping at straws here. Their old model, which doesn't work anymore, has made them billions. With this money, they're trying to force the country back into the old model through legislation. I can tell you right now. No matter how many laws are in place, or imaginary boundaries are raised, I can pirate your album without any consequence (moral excluded). Don't worry, I'm not that kind of person. These laws ARE NOT hurting pirates. If you think they can stop pirates, you simply don't understand how the internet works.

Another point...
This is a global issue;
Where I live, pirating is encouraged. I walked into a brick and mortar store the other day that sold downloaded movies burnt to disc. You can get any movie (including movies that came out last week). 4 for 10,000 won. And Korean people simply don't care. It's about availability and nothing else. They can buy the imported American movie for 35,000 won or they can download it for free. If it were offered in a more convenient way, people would purchase it.

The only way to make a dent in this issue is to completely 100% censor the internet. And we all know what happens when a medium is censored. Think about the early days of radio and the institution of the FCC. Do you really want something like that for the internet? Next thing you know, all the swear words will be filtered out of our internet, and this forum will only be available in Asia...

*edit/ disclaimer
My avatar and overall pirate theme reflects the rum slurping, "YARRR!" hollering kind of pirates. It's just a coincidence.

samuraipizzacat29 · Posted: Tue Mar 06, 2012 4:30 pm Post subject:

I'm resurrecting this because i "just" found out megaupload etc had been taken down. at first I thought "yeah but that will never work because they'll have to prove mega EXPLICITLY KNEW the files they were hosting were copyright, and that they PURPOSELY made it so people could access them". I view(ed) all these attacks as attacks on personal rights to freedom, and as a rather sever protection for copyright holders (more on that later).

......but.....then....... I read the endictment. Holy crap - these guys purposely and completely tried to steal money from the copyright holders of films. They explained to users how to upload illegal content. They paid people for ads ran on their illegal movies. They only allowed copyright holders the ability to take down a set # of videos per day, knowing full well users would be able to upload faster than studios could take stuff down. It's all in the indictment.

and that ain't right.

To me, copyright holders shouldn't be granted any more rights than the rest of us have. It's my responsibility to lock the doors of my home at night. My responsibility to call the police when I've been robbed, and prove that the material taken was mine. Copyright holders have to defend their brand/product, else they have to pay to have their product defended. I pay taxes for the police to enforce the law. I do not pay taxes so that your song (or mine) doesn't get ripped off. I don't pay taxes to protect my store inventory. The government doesn't do that.

-and - A popular song, video, etc is still worth money. People act like there's no way to make money anymore. sell t-shirts. do appearances. sell singles on itunes. heck, nearly everyone I know that wants a song buys it on itunes because they don't know how else to get it on to their i-doohicky. HOST YOUR OWN STINKING WEBSITE AND SELL MUSIC FROM IT!!!!! put a "donate here" button on your site. why does it seem so easy and yet people continuously rant and rave about how difficult it is to live off of intellectual property.

.....and that brings me to my final point. in no other era has it ever been viewed as a legitimate vocation to be an artist or musician. you know "starving artist" or other cliches? that's because people have never wanted to pay for intellectual works. The vast majority of contemporary artists only found favor after they died (this we know). why is it that all of the sudden, post y2k, people feel entitled to things? if you make something that people don't like, or don't want to pay for (and so don't) then you shouldn't be able to force them into paying for it. how many movies do you leave saying "i wish I wouldn't have paid for that"? I know I do.

anyway - if you make it, and you own it, then you should have control over who gets paid for it. The government should enforce the law only after proven theft has occurred. That shouldn't change for one industry verses another.

edit: I'm done ranting now - I just needed to find a place where intelligent people that actually cared about this gathered. do yourself a favor though and arm yourself with information before fashioning your opinion. my opinion always changes with the more facts I read.

Rymf · Posted: Tue Mar 06, 2012 6:56 pm Post subject:

Hey, it's this thread.

At this point, my impression is that Kim Dotcom is an absolute cock, but he might just be the right cock for our times.

I'm pleased that there will be a villain on TV at night asking why he bears the full brunt of the law, while individuals in other industries who, during the same timeframe, made comparably legally dubious decisions with much more severe economic (Morgan Stanley, Bear Stearns, Fannie/Freddie) and environmental (BP) consequences suffered merely the proverbial slap on the wrist.

Waz · Posted: Wed Mar 07, 2012 5:02 am Post subject:

I actually *GASP* used his site for legitimate purposes. Never once used it for piracy.

chrisso · Posted: Fri Mar 09, 2012 9:54 pm Post subject:

samuraipizzacat29 · Posted: Fri Mar 09, 2012 11:28 pm Post subject:

I've rewrote this response a couple times, but I can't make you understand something you don't want to understand. I used to spend $30 a week on cds, and have no clue what I was buying when I left the store. now I spend $10 a month on spotify, and consume what I want, when I want, at an alarming pace. if you'll notice, I'm a high demand consumer, and that's a 90% decrease. 90%! $100 a month! and i'm not doing anything wrong........ hmmm.....

It just doesn't work like it used to. yeah, people burning cds and selling them on street corners is a rip. But your new album can be out, converted to mp3, and hosted in 1000 locations in 24 hours. and all I have to do is a google advanced search to find it. Nowadays, you have to make a really fantastic product to get it noticed (because the attention span is so narrow) AND you have to capitalize on it with ads, marketing, residual products, performances, sponsors, etc. and you have to have it distributed in every imaginable location to get return.

anyway - artists aren't the same as other vocations in the sense that if I go into a store and buy something, I own it and can do whatever i want with it. If I pay someone to clean my house (or put an addition on it), I pay them only after the job has completed satisfactorily. Every successful retail store of which I know has a solid return policy if you're not satisfied. Artists are a service based industry. previously they could force you to pay before you knew if you were interested, but it just doesn't work that way anymore. When I go out, I legitimately own the food I buy. If I don't like it, I won't come back. if no one likes it the restaurant fails. it's the same, but different. You just expect people to be forced to pay for something they may not like. They're not going to buy it twice, you can bet that.

I'm genuinely sorry people steal stuff. If they stole my stuff, I would of course be ticked. Alternatively, I don't know if I should be remorseful that artists are no longer compensated bar none for their work. BUT - people will still pay for your product if they genuinely like it. You will get paid. The market is just so overwhelmed and glutted and every artists wants a piece. I have access to a multi-tracker on my cell phone. There's a score of apps on my ipad. My laptop is chock full of free vsts. a quality interface is $200. A guitar pack is under $200. Craigslist connects you to cheap gear 24/7. You mean to tell me the music market isn't more glutted than at any time in history? It's the product of instant accessibility by both creators and consumers. so your work has to be literally one in a million, and has to have incredible market penetration to go anywhere if we're talking about big profit dollars. (see: the white stripes and more recently the black keys. Thankfully the white stripes got out before sell-out)

Dr. Sketch-n-Etch · Posted: Sat Mar 10, 2012 1:49 am Post subject:

I'm with you (I think) samuraipizzacat29. When I was younger I spent virtually every penny of my disposable income on albums (yeah, that's how fucking old I am, I still call them albums) and, of course, junk food, but I digress...

The point is, when I used to buy records in good old record stores, it was fun. And boy, did I buy records, hundreds and hundreds of them, new and used. There was a real sense of adventure and discovery.

And like every other kid I knew, I had a big fuckin' stereo with big fuckin' speakers, and I played it way too fuckin' loud for my parents.

And I went to concerts. I saw artists like Jean Luc-Ponty, Jethro Tull, and Pat Metheny for about $10. It was awesome!

And then, along came the CD, and records were no longer the thing to buy. And I've got hundreds of those, too. But, they just aren't as much fun somehow. The cases are too small and break too easily, the little booklets are lame...

And then, the stores that sell CDs started to fill up with DVDs, and the next thing you know, the CDs were consigned to the basement, and the selection started to dwindle. The jazz and classical sections started shrinking, the rock and pop sections were dominated by worthless pap, American Idol rejects stared at me from the walls. I stopped visiting CD stores.

And then concerts started costing $50 minimum, $75 for decent seats. One of my kids was invited to go to a concert with a friend the other day, and the tickets were $150! (She decided she didn't care about it enough to pony up the dough, bless her.)

At some point, I sorta just stopped buying music. There was a period of about five years where I might have bought one CD every two months. And then every three. And it wasn't like I was downloading lots of stuff. I basically just lost interest. Music all started sounding more or less the same to me.

When I was a kid, everybody talked about music. It was a passion for most of us. Now, outside of Muffs, I know very few people who care about music at all.

Kids don't have stereos anymore. When was the last time you saw a kid with an actual stereo with bigass speakers, as opposed to an iPod with the ubiquitous fuckin' earbuds hanging off their head? We used to sit around the stereo and zone out with a pile of record covers on the floor. Music isn't something people share now. It's just background noise.

I think the music industry killed music. They sapped it of everything that made it vital, and converted it to just another commodity. Kids today don't really care about it, either. They don't talk about it they way we did. They don't obsess about it (and what's to obsess about?). I never hear kids at the uni discussing the latest bands or whatever. It's like music doesn't even exist anymore.

So, yeah, I have very little sympathy for the music industry. They took a good thing and killed it with unbridled greed. Fuck 'em, I say.

samuraipizzacat29 · Posted: Sat Mar 10, 2012 8:15 am Post subject:

chrisso · Posted: Sat Mar 10, 2012 7:29 pm Post subject:

chrisso · Posted: Sat Mar 10, 2012 7:34 pm Post subject:

chrisso · Posted: Sat Mar 10, 2012 7:40 pm Post subject:

Dr. Sketch-n-Etch · Posted: Sat Mar 10, 2012 11:20 pm Post subject:

chrisso · Posted: Sun Mar 11, 2012 2:44 am Post subject: