Muff's Modules & More

MrBiggs · Posted: Sun Feb 20, 2011 3:02 pm Post subject: Eurorack wah wah guitar filter?

I've been thinking of spending on an envelope follower. Looking at the WMD Fatman and the Emma Discombobulator.

But here's what I would like to know -- if I had a Doepfer A119 (or that expensive Cwejman thing), can I patch the gate out to, say, Maths; the envelope to a VCA with Maths the Maths envelope patched into the VCA, then the VCA out to a filter's frequency CV in, with the guitar signal running from the A119 to the filter audio in, and then out to my mixer or whatever. That's pretty much the same thing, right? Strumming the note sends a trigger to the Maths envelope, which is modulated by the amplitude of the guitar via the A119 envelope. The filter responds to the Maths envelope and I get a porn soundtrack.

If this is true I save me some money and can start thinking how else I can process the guitar with the modular... Dead Banana

Along the same lines, can a regular expression pedal like these used for control of pedals be used as a CV source for the modular? If not, are there CV pedals?

skweeegor · Posted: Sun Feb 20, 2011 7:08 pm Post subject:

I've done this with my line 6 pod, Maths (as both envelope follower and envelope generator) and various filters, so you can try it without the a119 to get a feel for the effect. It does work but the envelope follower part is touchy; you really have to dial in the setting and then learn to play accordingly to get the effect you want. Similar to an auto-wah pedal I suppose, but a bit more finicky. There's a patch in the manual for how to set up Maths as an envelope follower/eg.

visible cow · Posted: Mon Feb 21, 2011 11:35 am Post subject:

I used to do something similar when I had an a119. I used the Bubblesound sem20 or STG Sea Devils.

Better sounding (and cleaner) than any wah I've ever owned.

MrBiggs · Posted: Mon Feb 21, 2011 11:43 am Post subject:

CursedFrogurt · Posted: Mon Feb 21, 2011 11:49 am Post subject:

You could also just use the direct envelope follower signal to modulate the filter frequency. If you want slower sweeps, gating the maths is your ticket, but for your usual funky auto-wah sounds, use dat envelope follower. Or both, for some complex envelope shapes. Mix them in the maths and use the OR output! Dayamn, now you have me wanting an A-119.

MrBiggs · Posted: Mon Feb 21, 2011 11:55 am Post subject:

My first thought was just sending the envelope to the filter. But I figured I could modulate a separate one to get better response to the amplitude.

But now that I think on it that doesn't make any sense... confused

qu.one · Posted: Mon Feb 21, 2011 12:03 pm Post subject:

could also DIY the mmm amplitude follower.

http://www.mattsonminimodular.com/shop/index.php?main_page=product_inf o&cPath=1_2_14&products_id=33&zenid=6ac3ca73970d65026579634948936a03

MrBiggs · Posted: Mon Feb 21, 2011 12:09 pm Post subject:

qu.one · Posted: Mon Feb 21, 2011 12:14 pm Post subject:

just giving you another option. i don't know about what might be better as I have never used any other env follower. TBH, i rarely have used it since I put it together. I will be soon though.

MrBiggs · Posted: Mon Feb 21, 2011 12:22 pm Post subject:

K. Thanks.

I just found this thread.
http://www.muffwiggler.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24527
Jason Brock built one and has all kinds of info here. It's the panels that are frustrating to me (by the way, did you ever look at the ones I sent you?) since I don't know how much space is needed for jacks and pots.

What I'd like to know is how well it works with line-level signals. The Doepfer has a 3.5mm as well as a 1/8" jack with different gains. This MMM has just the single input. It would be swell to send stuff to it that's not just a guitar.

MindMachine · Posted: Sun Feb 27, 2011 2:27 am Post subject:

MrBiggs · Posted: Mon Mar 14, 2011 11:43 am Post subject:

I got an A119 and all it's done is convince me that I would love to have this in a pedal. It's proving to be a bit hard to dial in just the right attack and decay that allows the filter to be triggered with each pick of a string. None of my EGs retrigger on the attack, so if I'm playing even a little quickly, the filter ends up with a very legato feel. That is, only the first note gets the wah.

So question 1. Are there any EGs for Eurorack that retrigger on an attack?

For my second question, I'm wondering about the sound of something like that WMD Fatman and Wahwah pedals like the Crybaby. Most Wahwahs use an inductor based filter, while the Fatman and many other autowahs do not. Anyone know how this difference affects the sound? I was thinking that with an expression pedal in the Super Fatman I could get the best of both an autowah/env filter, and a standard wahwah pedal. Does this difference negate that?

dude · Posted: Mon Mar 14, 2011 1:10 pm Post subject:

i thought the wahs were bandpasss filters? i could see how a ready made pedal would be good. it is also a good patching challenge to dial in the exact sound you are looking for with the modular. it may not be possible, but the likelihood of timbral exploration and pleasing results is a lot higher with the modular than with a pedal. pedals are usually quite fixed. but that is of course another example of how simplicity and constraint often yield amazing results. and then it comes back to: if you are trying to emulate something, why not try the real thing? it is kind of an ethical thing to me. and notice i said to me, as i don't know if anybody up here is thinking like this. i see instruments as having some sort of identity. if i play that instrument, and learn it, i either get along with the identity in all or some of its forms, or maybe even enjoy not getting along with it, or further still, not wanting to play it etc etc etc. anyway, i think trying to get one instrument to emulate another rather than embracing its own identity can be frustrating but it can also be a good exercise.

sorry for the tangent. i am sort of thinking out loud in response to all the threads about how to get the euro to sound like a buchla etc. not that you are doing that...just has me thinking.

really i have just had too much coffee and should be studying eek!

MrBiggs · Posted: Mon Mar 14, 2011 1:36 pm Post subject:

Dude, I don't disagree with you but I think you missed the gist of my post. I'm not trying to imitate anything.

First, I'm using my modular as an effects box for my guitar. The filtering of that signal through either my Model 12 (bandpass) or Z2040 (low pass) is spectacularly different from anything I'd get with, say, a Crybaby Wahwah. Yes, the Wah pedals are bandpass, but the vactrol of the m12 is just different, as you likely know. The problem I had was with the envelope opening the filter.

Second, because I'm liking that so much, I want to get a dedicated envelope filter pedal. WMD makes an awesome one called Super Fatman that has an expression pedal input that allow it to act somewhat like a wah-wah. It overrides the attack trigger and allows one to control the filter with the expression pedal. My question here is that since Crybabys and most other wah-wah pedals are using bandpass filters that are inducer-based (as opposed, I think, to resistors and whatnot), I don't know how that would sound different from an envelope filter pedal like the Fatman.

So for me it's two different things. Sending the guitar through my modular in the safety of my little studio at home, vs hanging out with friends with stompboxes making my guitar sound like a porn soundtrack.

dude · Posted: Mon Mar 14, 2011 1:44 pm Post subject:

yeah, i got your post but it seemed like you already had your answers so i went with a concepts inspired by your post which likely equals OT lol.

MrBiggs · Posted: Mon Mar 14, 2011 1:49 pm Post subject:

dude · Posted: Mon Mar 14, 2011 2:56 pm Post subject:

oh, well yeah you can totally patch up an eg follower with maths, bandpass (or whatever) +119/vca. pretty much just like you said in the first post. i think tony even has a patch example in the maths manual. but i may somehow be unable to read some part of your post as i think this was already accounted for. seems like you ave two lines of thought?
1. can i patch x with y modules?
2. are x pedals cool for y purpose?

i haven't tried the specific pedals you mentioned. 'autowah' type things i have tried a lot. i don't like the fixed architecture of those types of pedals but as i said i haven't tried new-fangled ones.

sorry again if i am completely misunderstanding what you are hoping to find. if you can afford it, try a couple pedals out and see what clicks. compare to your patches. the benfit to the modular is that you could, say, add i some vc bitcrushing etc etc.

MrBiggs · Posted: Mon Mar 14, 2011 3:15 pm Post subject:

dude · Posted: Mon Mar 14, 2011 3:20 pm Post subject:

ah rrright. well as you know, the env fol pedals don't have or need an expression input, they simply work off the voltage level perceived by the incoming amplitude, whereas crybaby type things just respond to the sweep range of the pedal. autwahs, well you just play and bootsy type sounds come out whereas wah pedals need feetz or some method of physical movement to open the filter. and sound is going to be so subjective.

so which questions do you still have?

MrBiggs · Posted: Mon Mar 14, 2011 3:45 pm Post subject: