Muff's Modules & More

dzlvs8

Hi, I am a keys and guitar player and have tons of cool crap. ..instruments, that is. I unfortunately have neglected any type of recording setup. So I currently am working with 12 instruments (mainly vintage keys) and only a four channel looper and a Boomerang 3 Phrase Looper.

I would like to acomplish two things and I need advice on both before I make my next move/purchase.

Goal 1: I need to get all 12 of my instruments (11 instruments and a 6 channel drum machine) conveniently mixed.

Goal 2: I would like to now record directly into my computer, instead of using my video camera!!!! I will occasionally want to still use my looper to structure the songs completely and then just record the track into the computer. While other times I may want to record each instrument individually and cut up the tracks in Ableton Live or something.

So, with that said, I assume I need a new mixer and I will also need to buy an audio interface. I assume this is the obvious route to take. Also, I dont use midi (most of everything I have is pre-midi or electromechanical).

I am not a fan of all in one devices unless it saves a ton of cash and I'm not sure if a standard mic/line mixer with an audio interface in it would work when a lot of the time I will just want to send stuff from my mixer to my looper and then to my computer.

I will stop here for now. I unfortunately will have lots of questions about which 16 channel mixers or audio interfaces I should consider. Once I know exactly what type of devices I need to get.

Due to the complexity of my situation. I will reply with a diagram of my setup. If you've made it this far into my confusing post. Congratulations. ...and thanks in advance for your reply/recommendations.
Steve

dzlvs8 · Posted: Tue Apr 10, 2012 6:42 pm Post subject:

Here is my flowchart to simplify things. Sorry I have made music so boring with a flow chart.

My concern is how to go about this efficiently and without wasting lots of money. Hope this helps.

mangobob · Posted: Tue Apr 10, 2012 7:12 pm Post subject:

A decent mixer will typically have a main stereo outs to go to your recording device (audio interface) as well as separate monitor L/R outs to go to your speakers.

Also read up on how Aux Sends and Returns work. I don't use a looper but that may be an ideal way to hook it up. You could send any combination of mixer input channels (in varying amounts) to the looper input via an Aux Send. The looper output goes back to a input mixer so you can monitor/record it. As long the looper's return channel doesn't send signal via the Aux to the looper input you won't get feedback.

CalvaryBand · Posted: Tue Apr 10, 2012 8:09 pm Post subject:

My advice... No mixer/Amp. Get a really good, multi-channel soundcard. RME UFX is my pick as it is a great piece of hardware and uses very solid drivers. The TotalMix software that comes with it is fucking great as well. Get a MIDI controller (or a couple) that allows for easy control of said in-the-box mixing: these controllers range from more expensive-ish stuff like the Mackie Universal Control series to the more low-end Korg Nanokontrol2. Of course with this setup you will need to have the computer on the entire time but it will make it so you do not need bulky amps/mixers around.

skipperdean · Posted: Tue Apr 10, 2012 8:15 pm Post subject:

saved me some typing. any (simultaneous) multi track interface + daw + midi controller for daw=golden.

dzlvs8 · Posted: Tue Apr 10, 2012 8:47 pm Post subject:

CalvaryBand · Posted: Tue Apr 10, 2012 9:18 pm Post subject:

You can get lots of channels in and out of USB (these days, anyways). If you're recording at 48k you can do 30 channels I/O on the UFX. Using a PC is fine, there will be no difference in performance, and you should not notice any lag using these midi controllers.

If you're used to using nice keys and a looper, getting into Ableton with something like the UFX or Fireface UC will literally make you lose your shit. It's motherfucking bacon yo

dzlvs8 · Posted: Tue Apr 10, 2012 9:30 pm Post subject:

dzlvs8 · Posted: Tue Apr 10, 2012 9:34 pm Post subject:

drewtoothpaste · Posted: Tue Apr 10, 2012 10:11 pm Post subject:

You don't need a mixer, just use a patchbay to hook your instruments straight into your audio interface. If you're playing them by hand and looping/multitracking them you don't need to listen to their audio outputs mixed together.

Get a cheap interface (used) and see if you like using the computer, no need to get anything fancy yet.

CalvaryBand · Posted: Tue Apr 10, 2012 10:35 pm Post subject:

There's also the Echo Audiofire 12, that's a pretty good soundcard as well. Don't know if your laptop has firewire (or an expresscard port to expand into firewire), though.

dzlvs8 · Posted: Tue Apr 10, 2012 10:47 pm Post subject:

Im still struggling to understand why I want to invest a ton of money into a multi channel (16) interface and have to use my computer as a mixer and buy a midi controller to make controlling the computer easier, and by a patch bay. When I could just buy a mixer and a fast track pro. I dont see the advantage. I understand that it would be great for the few times when I am playing my clavinet and rhodes at the same time and I want to go back and do something to only one instrument, but it sounds like a huge investment.

Is there a cheap solution for everything ($600 if I have to buy a mac to avoid latency. ...preferably around $300...). The mixer / audio interface combos seem like theyd do all of what you are describing but Ive heard that there is latency issues. i would take the advantage of multi channel direct recording for $400. I found the alesis multimix 16 channel usb 2.0. But Ive heard of latency issues there too. I swear to god if I invest $600 into anything that makes playing my odyssey lag, Im gonna freak out. That is NOT the direction i want to take.

CalvaryBand · Posted: Tue Apr 10, 2012 11:28 pm Post subject:

Well, you could either use a multi-channel soundcard or a lower channel count soundcard with a patchbay. The Audiofire 12 will sound better than any mixer/audio interface combo in a similar price-range and being able to multi-track record to me, is priceless, especially when you factor in how many incredible vst effects there are in this day and age.

Babaluma · Posted: Wed Apr 11, 2012 12:36 am Post subject:

Second the Audiofire 12!

dzlvs8 · Posted: Wed Apr 11, 2012 7:10 am Post subject:

Damn this is good info. the audiofire 12 looks very affordable. unfortunately my laptop doesnt have a pcmia slot OR fire wire, so im out of luck at the moment. I probably will get a desktop replacement. I dont like my laptop anyways.

the only thing I dont think I like about the audiofire is that it doesnt have one output. I dont understand how that works? do I just assign one of the 12 outputs to carry all sound or does each channel output strictly only output what it receives from its input after being processed in the co
puter?

It sounds like i need a mixer after my outputs of the audio interface with the audio fire.

That would be a no no for me because a majority of the time, i would still like to bypass the computer when playing. I have done some research and am excited about the benefits of the multi channel recording, but I absolutely do not want to be a slave to the computer for even just diddling around.

Light you suggest a mixer with a separate output for each channel so i can run each channel separately to the multichannel interface but still have the capability of using the otb mixer main out for dissling around? Areyou getting frustrated with my stupid questions yet?

Babaluma · Posted: Wed Apr 11, 2012 7:49 am Post subject:

re audiofire stuff:

you do all the routing with the audiofire in software. there is a software mixer, where you can assign NONE/ONE/ANY/ALL of the inputs to NONE/ONE/ANY/ALL of the outputs. might take a little while to get your head around it, but once you do you can pretty much route things however you like.

i had mine setup with outputs 11 and 12 hard panned L and R, and used as my "main" PC outputs, going to the monitors. outputs 1 and 2 fed my two bus/mastering chain, outputs 3 and 4 fed my innerclock systems sync lock etc. was a very flexible system.

inputs were from the mastering chain, from the modular, from the various effects returns etc. it certainly was VERY easy not to have to deal with a physical mixer any more.

you can also use it in "standalone" mode, which means that however you have the software mixer configured when you power down, it will stay like that even when the PC is not on. so you can have a setup you like for tweaking and playing, and not be tied to the PC.

only sold it as i upgraded my converters and didn't need all the ins and outs any more. you should be able to find one second hand for around $400.

there a million ways of doing what you want to do, but it's about narrowing it down for what's most ergonomic for you.

lilakmonoke · Posted: Wed Apr 11, 2012 7:58 am Post subject:

if the rme ufx is too expensive just get a fireface uc, they are around 600 used. now that the ufx and its smaller version the ucx are out prices should even come down more. nothing beats total mix especially for complex multi input setups. my fireface uc is really the most important part of my studio.

dzlvs8 · Posted: Wed Apr 11, 2012 8:08 am Post subject:

Wow I love you guys. Something like the audio wire sounds perfect. When I do quick recording and playing around with the looper, I never tweak my mixer so something like the audio wire would be perfect. I assume having the audiowire "disconnected" from the computer would then allow me to just jam along with youtube videos with my normal sound card like normal too!

So is there anything comparable to the audiofire 12 that is usb 2.0? Will it have latency? I may just want to test something like this out before I go all gung ho and sell my laptop to get something with fire wire (although I am totally fine with selling my laptop) I dont need it. It sits under my coffee table 24/7 and is connected to my tc and klipsch rrf7 eference speakers. i used to need a laptop so i could take it to the can with me grin

but I use my cell phone now. tmi?

Can anyone recommend a good knobby midi controller (not a keyboard) that I can use for controlling mixing on the pc? I havent seen anything like that besides the crappy $40 Korg Control thingys? and i assume I will need a midi interface for this?

ive come a long ass way in a day. this is sweet!

Babaluma · Posted: Wed Apr 11, 2012 8:24 am Post subject:

i've been lusting after one of these for ages:

http://www.kentonuk.com/products/items/midicontrol/kmix-mini.shtml

pipwilliams · Posted: Wed Apr 11, 2012 9:32 am Post subject:

Behringer XENYX X2442 mixer (or ones with fewer channels) will record straight into computer via USB. Much cheaper and will bypass audio interface

dzlvs8 · Posted: Wed Apr 11, 2012 11:05 am Post subject:

Babaluma · Posted: Wed Apr 11, 2012 11:53 am Post subject:

i'd agree with your fine assessment of behringer gear. steer well clear and you can't go wrong! never owned any and never will, for so many reasons.

Babaluma · Posted: Wed Apr 11, 2012 11:55 am Post subject:

i think usb 2 could struggle. ditch your laptop and get a desktop with pcie and firewire, loads more reliable choices then.

dzlvs8 · Posted: Wed Apr 11, 2012 12:31 pm Post subject:

Babaluma · Posted: Wed Apr 11, 2012 12:39 pm Post subject:

i'm mainly mastering 2 channel stereo, and monitoring the output, so latency is not so much a concern for me, but i have a new carillon audio PC, with an RME HDSPe AES interface (with external crookwood converters), using audiomulch 2.0 as my main DAW, and i can get very low latency without glitches or drop-outs. i can play guitar with effects and monitor it all in real-time through the ADC/DAC chain output without noticing any delay.

dzlvs8 · Posted: Wed Apr 11, 2012 1:00 pm Post subject:

CalvaryBand · Posted: Wed Apr 11, 2012 4:16 pm Post subject:

Put together a PC; don't worry about getting an Apple. They make decent laptops but PC desktops pretty much trounce Apple desktops these days, ESPECIALLY since you can turn them into a hackintosh and run OSX straight off of a PC (if you use the right components, that is). I just setup a new desktop with both Win7/Lion and it was actually quicker to install Lion than Win7...

I think having a bias towards firewire is unnecessary in this most recent age of audio interfaces. There have been legitimate strides in the technology put into place in some of the newest USB 2.0 interfaces. I actually prefer USB interfaces as I seem to run into less hassle when it comes to power/sleep/hot plugging compared to Firewire. There is no benefit when it comes to latency either; my laptop runs the USB RME Babyface at 4ms roundtrip.

dzlvs8 · Posted: Wed Apr 11, 2012 6:37 pm Post subject:

lilakmonoke · Posted: Wed Apr 11, 2012 7:35 pm Post subject:

RME fireface UC is usb 2! ... and nobody records with 12 synths at the same time. the UC will give you 8 ins and is easily expandable via ADAT to 16. firewire on a PC with windows 7 has been a nightmare for me until i switched to usb. its ok on apple but basically a discontinued format.

dzlvs8 · Posted: Wed Apr 11, 2012 8:09 pm Post subject:

CalvaryBand · Posted: Wed Apr 11, 2012 8:35 pm Post subject:

Well if you're looking to do OSX/Win7 this page should help you out when deciding on parts. You have to read up on it a bit but there are really good guides on getting OSX on your PC. I would personally skip out on harddrives and get a SSD (or two). The performance difference is pretty huge when loading/auditioning samples. The parts you have listed sound good, only changes I'd make is get 8 GB RAM rather than 6 GB and unless you have a spare 460 around or can find a really good deal on one, get instead a Radeon 6850 or 6870. When shopping for a firewire card, look for a TI chipset model. An easy way to tell is by checking out a picture of said unit and looking at the biggest chip (usually located in the middle of the card); it should have the TI logo right on it. These have been known to perform better than the VIA and other assorted chipsets.

If you're worried about the USB on your mobo becoming saturated you can get an additional USB PCI-E expansion card. This and the firewire card can be found on eBay for next to nothing.

dzlvs8 · Posted: Wed Apr 11, 2012 8:49 pm Post subject:

CalvaryBand · Posted: Wed Apr 11, 2012 9:31 pm Post subject:

Yeah, on my RME Babyface I have had 8 channels going in at once at 4ms. I have also had 8 going into my Allen & Heath USB controller/interface at around 7ms. Keep in mind also that this is not being done on a separate USB card and I have several other things connected at the same time (Maschine, RME Babyface, A&H controller, USB 3.0 external drive, mouse, keyboard, etc). I would not buy the card first and see how it works for you. You may not need it.

lilakmonoke · Posted: Sat Apr 14, 2012 8:48 am Post subject:

the point is not usb or firewire, its the quality of the hardware and the drivers that run the I/O. thats why i keep mentioning RME. there is a reason why practically everybody i know uses rme interfaces. this stuff is rock solid! and again, there is nothing wrong with only plugging in the stuff you are actually using or using a small submixer for drum machines. just keep thing simple is the best advice i can give.

dzlvs8 · Posted: Sat Apr 14, 2012 12:43 pm Post subject:

Son of a bitch. I am deeply sorry but I have failed you. I am about to cancel my computer order, not buy an audiofire 12 and go the route of buying a 16 channel mixer and a fast track pro interface or something.

Reasoning:
audiofire 12 channels is not enough
I still would need to buy a new mixer in order to run all my stuff through my Roland Chorus Echo before I went to my computer. I also have no way to run 16 channels separately out of the Chorus Echo. Therefore, in order to use a multichannel interface properly, I would need to swap cables constantly or buy a patch bay, I think. Those both defate the need of needing multi channel anyway.

I also really dont want to be in the box anymore than I have to anyway and I don't want to slow down my creating process anymore than I have to.

I started thinking Nutter!

about selling my Arp Odyssey in order to fund the recording setup and thats when I stopped this mess. An Arp Odyssey recorded via a kareoke machine sounds a million times better than recording nothing through an audiofire 12.

So I am just going to run one channel (or maybe two channels for P08) via usb into my current laptop. Assuming I wont get latency on the output.

The price was getting out of hand, and in the end i would only have a more tedious and time consuming setup and more recording features than I currently need.

Question:
Does anyone have a recommendation on a cheap compact mixer with no dsp stuff or other BS. The only feature I am looking for is a quick way to have an output that only outputs a few specified channels (for recording purposes). I think the Yamaha MG16/4 has what I am looking for with "on/off" buttons next to the sliders. I really dont want to have to adjust my mains for each channel when I go to record on one channel

Again, I am sorry. But since I love my current setup, I need to take baby steps back into the box. I get mad when I have to even look at the P08 menu screen, to make music, let alone a computer screen.

jonah · Posted: Sat Apr 14, 2012 1:21 pm Post subject:

In regards to your new question I just got an allen and heath zed 10 that I'm finding very useful and pleasant sounding. It has knobs rather than faders, but I only really prefer faders when doing a final mix.

dzlvs8 · Posted: Sat Apr 14, 2012 1:33 pm Post subject:

I need at least 12 channels. Preferably 16 channels and it needs to be compact. I noticed that the mackie 1402 has a solo button for each channel. Thats what I'm looking for as far as a feature for recording!

Also, is there any problems with using my crappy, half busted, 6 channel behringer as a mixer for my SCI drumtraks, and then chaining the 6 channel mixer output to one input on a bigger mixer. It seems like that would be ok, but I never see people with that ghetto of a set up.

Babaluma · Posted: Sat Apr 14, 2012 1:59 pm Post subject:

mackie 1202 vlz3

Rudy D. · Posted: Sat Apr 14, 2012 2:01 pm Post subject:

I would get a emu interface and a behringer ADA8000 - the converters are without a doubt good - there are several converter treats on GS - i also worked with this setup until i got myself a linx aurora 16 - Never A/B'd the converters but my tracks doesn't sound better since i got the linx for what my ears tell me - Interfaces with numerous in/out possibilitys are expansive - get the behringer along with a "cheap" 4/4 or 8/8 interface with adat in and out - i would directly record all the tracks to the pc and monitor the stereo out of the daw. Other Possibility - Get the Mackie VLZ 1642 - there you got 8 Direct Outs and 4 Sub-Outs - so you got to record 12 tracks and monitor them over the mixer - it's the pricyest mixer i know which offers these possibilitys... Cheers Rudy

jonah · Posted: Sat Apr 14, 2012 2:09 pm Post subject:

Oh, sorry, I thought you were going to use a patchbay.

dzlvs8 · Posted: Sat Apr 14, 2012 2:54 pm Post subject:

syzygywell · Posted: Sat Apr 14, 2012 4:12 pm Post subject:

dzlvs8 · Posted: Sat Apr 14, 2012 11:27 pm Post subject:

Well, I have bad news and I have not so bad news.

Bad news:
There was a guy from Craigslist the other night that told me everything he could think of related to recording gear. I mentioned that here. Today I bought his Yamaha MG16/4 and Fast Track Pro for $200. Its a small investment that gets me taking a baby step into making a decent recording and if I decide to, I can sell it and not lose money. But I think this setup may be the most convenient for me (I still have a real mixer!)

Not so bad news:
I like how the MG16/4 has a separate ?out? for 8 of the channels. This means that in the future if I feel the need, I can get a new computer with firewire and get an audiofire 12 or an 8 channel rme. ....as long as the outs on the first 8 channels occur AFTER the fx loop.

So thanks for the help. Sorry I didn't take the plunge to multi chan, but this was a quick, cheap fix and is probably all I need. I dont want to be in the box while I'm in the middle of playing music.

By the way, since this thread is about recording gear; the dude I bought the stuff off of seemed to get a bigger boner from mixing and recording rather than from playing. That means he had some pretty cool stuff though. He had sonar running and then as we were there he tried out the wifi/midi app for the ipad that has a midi controller specifically for sonar. THAT is a midi controller I can live with because every knob and button is labeled specifically for sonar and the song you are in. Each track had its name next to it.....man it was sweet. My next purchase may actually be an iPad because I finally saw a use for it. Only problem is that its like a $600 midi controller.

Anyway, I gotta go hook up my new gear and get to fap fap fap...

dzlvs8 · Posted: Mon Apr 16, 2012 7:56 am Post subject:

Yep, its me again. So I now have a yamaha mg16/4 and fast track pro and bypassed getting a computer with firewire. .....But last night I actually found an awesome deal and bought a desktop with firewire. So, I am already looking to improve my setup to a multi channel recording setup. Id rather go multi channel than deactivating all channels on my mixer that im not recording
But the problem is i still want to have the capability of the fx routing of my mixer because I use a roland chorus echo. How do I acheive this in the simplest and cheapest way possible if I decide to buy an audiofire 12.

I thought the separate outs for each channel of my mixer would acheive this but the separate outs send the signal out BEFORE it is routed through the effects processor.

Basically I think the easiest way to do this is to get a mixer that has individula outs for most channels (aka, not a mixer) and those outs send the effects loop signal too. any ideas?

lilakmonoke · Posted: Mon Apr 16, 2012 9:20 am Post subject:

:-) there you go! basically everybody has to work his way through a big pile of stuff until you find something that works ... and there are no shortcuts. now that you have the mixer, ever thought about getting a good tape machine/deck? im serious, a direct mix through tape will always sound great.

Babaluma · Posted: Mon Apr 16, 2012 9:58 am Post subject:

patchbay!

a lot of good mixers have individual outs on each and every channel, and they are really mixers. wink

quoting myself from earlier in this thread:

dzlvs8 · Posted: Mon Apr 16, 2012 10:26 am Post subject:

sydilaxe · Posted: Mon Apr 16, 2012 10:40 am Post subject:

Behringer ADA-8000 isn't a terrible bit. It sounds extremely mediocre, but it is far from useless. Name something else that does what it does for the same price...

dzlvs8 · Posted: Mon Apr 16, 2012 11:26 am Post subject:

My feeble little brain is starting to understand exactly what I need. Ultimately I would like an 8 channel interface (2 for my mixer and six for my drumtraks that will never be routed through my tape delay).

So what is a cheap but good 8 channel interface? Is there something cheaper than the audiofire 12? i dont need any mic inputs. what about going with a hard wired pcie card based unit? Anything like that on ebay for less than an audiofire?

jeannot · Posted: Mon Apr 16, 2012 6:59 pm Post subject:

dzlvs8 · Posted: Mon Apr 16, 2012 9:27 pm Post subject:

dzlvs8 · Posted: Mon Apr 16, 2012 9:50 pm Post subject:

SO I've figured out a bunch of stuff and got this stupid piece of crap fast track pro working. The latency at 24/48 with one channel recording is 8.9ms and it is VERY noticable when hearing two tracks that I played the exact same thing on. One track was pre recorded and I played along with it on the second track and there was a noticable delay when on playback of both tracks. This in the box recording seems like a major frickin step backwards with my music. And its really not cool if 2 channels are going to be 17. If my assumption is correct, I should be investing in firewire and something with better a/d converters. Correct? or will I have the same problem with firewire (like, its a HDD write problem and I should just use the feature to shift the track after recording live?

Also, it seems like I can't get very loud before the stupid bast*rd starts clipping. What I mean, is that there is not a very large range of volume between not hearing the stuff and having it clip. Is this me being stupid with the fast track settings or should something like this be expected of lower end devices..or expected of all a/d devices? I'm dumb, but I'm thinking this is what people call head room, or lack of head room?

Probaly my favorite feature of the fast crap pro is the sonic boom it sends to my amp when I power it off or on. >:(

lilakmonoke · Posted: Tue Apr 17, 2012 2:22 am Post subject:

like babaluma said you are riding the horse in reverse. its not about the options you have its about what works for you to get the music you are hearing. once you have that figured out do it as simple as possible.

here is how i work at the moment: i compose strictly by ear, no grid, no scales, no seperate tracks. just one single sculpted sound cloud, if you know what i mean. so all my synths go into the fireface and then are being mixed into one stereo channel with a midi controller. another mix goes into the modular and effects and a tape delay. those two mixes go into a looper vst called moebius that records everything i do. i keep stacking sounds until i like something, then i hit save loop and have an audio file. then later i remix those files into a "finished" track.

that way i can do it all from one midi controller and keys and dials and never have to look at the computer. thats a very fast way of doing ambient music for me. if i did techno i would have to completely redesign the whole process. dig?

dzlvs8 · Posted: Tue Apr 17, 2012 7:51 am Post subject:

Dude, that doesnt make any sense. You I need ti understand what is out there and how it works before I can figure out what works best for my needs. Maybe you should start from the begining and see how this started. it started with me listing my needs and then people have been making suggestions on what might work best for my setup.

Im first testing out this fast track pro, to see how i like everything, but Im trying to find out why more expensive interfaces are more expensive, besides because they have more inputs.

Does something like an audiofire 12 or presonus firepod have better sounding a/d converters. I dont know if its just me but the fast track seems to sound pretty terrible. Also the head room seems shitty. Maybe I just need to do more tweaking of the knobs??? Will something like an audiofire 12 or firepod have noticeably better head room and a/d converters resultinging in sonic improvements even if still recording at 48khz?

jonah · Posted: Tue Apr 17, 2012 11:36 am Post subject:

I know the focusrite and rme software has a feature where you can send audio from the inputs to the outputs with no latency for monitoring and what have you and still send that audio into a DAW for recording. I think MOTU can do something like this and from reading other people's posts the Echo seems to be able to do this too.

RME's software felt way less maddening to me than focusrite's.

I'm curious as to why you want to get so many separate tracks into the computer at once? I only ask because it sounds like you don't want to do a lot of post recording mixing and editing.

I can think of some ways to integrate live playing and computer recording, but I really think you're going to go mad with timing issues if you try to get any processed or recorded audio out of the computer without stopping playback.

Now, if you don't mind stopping playing and syncing your live playing to the computer you could do something like use the AUX sends on a mixer into the computer and send a few separate tracks into Live, do a rough mix, send the stereo out of live into the mixer, start playing along, repeat the process of sending AUXs to new tracks in Live, stop re-sync, rough mix, go back to playing, etc.

I'm the same about like liking to work live and quickly and I run a bunch of smaller mixers on the way into a zoom r24. Maybe if I had a second computer and an engineer to record and mange tracks for me I could make it work, but when I tried to use the computer for recording, playback, sequencing and effects I'd always end up making some stupid audio routing error.

dzlvs8 · Posted: Tue Apr 17, 2012 12:56 pm Post subject:

my fast track pro seems to be lag free for playback from the computer and live playing. its just the recording issue with latency thwt I have and I havent been able to get the auto correct to work in cubase yet.

Im just concerned about head room and a/d conversion sound quality.

I want 8 inputs because I want stereo in for my synths and i want six more channels for my sci drumtraks, which is a six channel drum machine.

jeannot · Posted: Tue Apr 17, 2012 1:43 pm Post subject:

Why not just mix down before you send to the audio interface.

A few people here have been suggesting that, and from the sound of it, you also would like to be mixing out of the box. In which case, a 16 channel mixer, like a Yamaha MG166 would do just fine to sub mix all of your tracks before sending the stereo outs (mixer) to the audio interface. You won't be experiencing the same kind of latency problems, since you will only be listening to the roundtrip latency of two inputs.

You could still use the fast track pro as your interface for the mixer outputs, so all you'd need to find is a decent 16 channel mixer like the MG166, or something equivalent by Mackie, like Babaluma suggested, and you should still be in your price range.

As far as A/D headroom on your interface, obviously make sure you are sending a hot signal from all of your synths. If so, and headroom problem still persists, look for another interface.

edit: also make sure you aren't sending TOO hot of a signal out of the synths. Many will output much higher than a 1.2V line level signal, which is what the interface inputs are looking for.

dzlvs8 · Posted: Tue Apr 17, 2012 2:16 pm Post subject:

I have a spare six channel mixer to mix down the druntraks. the drjm traks also has its one volume level for each drum. BUT after I record the drums I would like to omit the high hat at points, change the levels at other points, etc. and it would be way easier to do with an 8 channel. I know what I want as far as channels. Im just making sure my head room concerns and questionable a/d conversion sound quality thoughts about the fast track pro are valid.

Heres the head room issue explained again:

Basicall if I pump any more signal IN from the mixer/keyboards its loud enough but it starts clipping. If I kee the signal at a reasonable level so Im not in danger of clipping I have to crank up the output to hear it loud and the signal to noise ratio gets really bad.

dzlvs8 · Posted: Tue Apr 17, 2012 7:17 pm Post subject:

I spent some more time tweaking and although the method of using a fast track causes a higher signal to noise ratio, its not really that bad. I found a sweet spot. I just really think this is all becoming a pain in the ass because there my signal does this shit.....

synth to mixer gain, to channel level, to mixer level, to fast track input level, to fast track output level, to amp level.

I also fixed the latency issue. Although Cubase was set to auto correct recording latency, it didn't automatically calculate the latency. WTF?!?!?! Why the heck wouldn't Cubase just auto calculate it based on the maudio latency call out and sample rate?!?!

Anyway, I'm all set for now. I will end up getting a multi channel as soon as I save up for one. Now it's on to Microphones.....

Babaluma · Posted: Wed Apr 18, 2012 3:36 am Post subject:

pipwilliams · Posted: Thu Apr 19, 2012 9:54 am Post subject:

dzlvs8 · Posted: Thu Apr 19, 2012 10:42 am Post subject:

Thanks for the tip. It better be nice, for ten times the price of an ok/shitty interface.

Is there anything thats good a very clean, high quality, sound that ia cheaper that can be installed in my pcie slot on my new desktop. Ive seen some cards that have ?serial? ports on the and then you plug in some dingle dangle type thingy that gives you a bunch of analog ins. Or those any good. Ive had an maudio mdii controller keyboard before and it was a big pile of shhit, so I dont trust maudio. but to give an example of the type of cadd Im talking about, there is an maudio delta 1010. I know rme makes one too and its cheaper than a fireface. Anyone had experience with them?

CalvaryBand · Posted: Thu Apr 19, 2012 11:39 am Post subject:

I had the RME Multiface for a while; it is that kind of PCI w/ Breakout Box solution that I believe you're speaking of. Look for a Multiface II, they're great.

dzlvs8 · Posted: Thu Apr 19, 2012 12:28 pm Post subject:

Dude thats still like $850. I dont want to spend more than $500. anything more and id rather spend it on a synth. no matter how unbelievably amazing the $1k piece records. Ive heard albums that aound good with a firepod and those arent near $1k

Babaluma · Posted: Thu Apr 19, 2012 2:04 pm Post subject:

then buy a firepod? lol

dzlvs8 · Posted: Thu Apr 19, 2012 2:57 pm Post subject:

YEAH WOW thats funny!?!?! i only asked about a firepod a few posts ago with no response on sound quality of it. SOOOOOO is a firepod any better than my fast track pro, if I ignore the fact that I gain more inputs? Is there something in the same $400 price range that is better? MAYBE SOMETHING thats in the pcie card form factor?????????

Babaluma · Posted: Thu Apr 19, 2012 3:34 pm Post subject:

dzlvs8 · Posted: Thu Apr 19, 2012 3:42 pm Post subject:

pcie?

Babaluma · Posted: Thu Apr 19, 2012 3:48 pm Post subject:

i think pcie should be more reliable and have greater bandwidth than any usb or firewire device, but not sure so don't quote me.

i've been pretty amazed with how great and smoothly things have gone since i switched from echo to rme last summer. i thought echo was great (and it is), but the driver stability with rme is just incredible, as is the bundled digicheck software, and overall "invisibility" of it all (as far as user interface and sound qulity goes). i currently use an hdspe AES with external converters btw.

CalvaryBand · Posted: Thu Apr 19, 2012 7:33 pm Post subject:

Just buy a multitrack recorder and be done with it. It sounds like you don't want to spend that much on a soundcard and when combining that with the fact you have stated you do not like working with computers anyways, it's a pretty obvious choice. Multitracks are cheap as hell now that everyone uses computers.

dzlvs8 · Posted: Thu Apr 19, 2012 8:59 pm Post subject:

Sorry, Id like to cut up tracks and stuff once in a while. Bybsaying that its sounds like I dont want to spend much money on an interface and therefore shouldnt get one, are you saying I cant get a decent 8 channel interface for $400 used????!!!!?

pipwilliams · Posted: Fri Apr 20, 2012 3:27 am Post subject:

How about the mAudio 2626? You can pick them up on eBay for around £250

I was tempted with that myself but I've cut so many corners with audio interfaces in the past that I decided to shell out on the RME. I'm not disappointed in the slightest. I guarantee you will notice a difference the more you spend... In fact I did an A/B with the RME and a friends 2626. Big, big difference. But like you say good music is released using cheaper gear. The 2626 would still give you good results.

EDIT: typos hihi

CalvaryBand · Posted: Fri Apr 20, 2012 2:28 pm Post subject:

I have gone through a lot of soundcards in that range looking for something adequate to bring on the go with me; M-Audio, MOTU, NI, Alesis, Mackie, god, so many others I don't even remember. They were all not-so pleasant of experiences, either because of technical glitches, odd limitations (latency usually) or crappy build quality. I'd get something Echo or save up for an RME (I guess I have already said this, yet here we are). Do what I did and just sell one of your old keyboards to make your recording chain complete. Your other 11 will thank you for it.

dzlvs8 · Posted: Sat Apr 21, 2012 12:19 am Post subject:

Yeah, its me again. I'm going to F'ing lose it. So I got my new desktop computer and as soon as I plug in the fast track pro I get high pitched whines, static, and chirps, that are in sync with hard drive activity and video card activity! F--- YEAH! Guinness ftw!

I dont even need to have the fast track turned on or have anything plugged into the input. I think it has something to do with my computers power supply or something else. My laptop doesn't do cause these sounds and these sounds are not crackles and pops of the sound cutting in and out. Like I said, I can have the power off on the fast track and have nothing plugged into the input of the fast track. As long as the computer is powered on (doesnt even need to be fully booted) and I have the usb plugged in, I get static and high pitched noises and chirps....LOTS. The more activity I do on my computer, the worse it gets, and if I boot up a game, I get really freakin bad buzzes, but nothing is 60hz.

So ANYWAY, my question is, has anyone ever ran into this and will a different/better interface not have these issues. I'm pretty sure it has to do with the fast track receiving dirty power. I have a feeling a different/better interface wont help.

dzlvs8 · Posted: Sun Apr 22, 2012 7:41 pm Post subject:

Well.....some of you may not be surprised by this but confused

....I broke my fast track pro. hyper

That thing is a piece of crap. When I get some more money, I am going to buy something better. I have found out that on some of the higher end stuff, the companies actually call out there signal to noise ratio and their dynamic range. Those were the two things that I thought were poor with my fast track pro.

I'm still not going to step into the $1000 range. I want to stay at $500 or below and I guess 8 or more inputs would be nice,, but I really only need one input. I cant take advantage of multiple inputs because of how i want stuff set up (effects loops) Btw, I cannot afford anything that is RME.

I'm REALLY leaning towards the audiofire 12 but I wish it had a mic input. If its not the audiofire, I have been looking at one RME item. The HDSP 9632. Its only PCI and not PCIe, ....so whats that gonna mean for me? I don't care about recording lag because Cubase adjusts for the latency, but I do care about live monitoring lag. I cant afford the PCIe version of the card. Not sure why it costs so much more. ....Well, what I mean is, I'm not sure why PCIe is better than PCI if Cubase compensates for latency.

FYI, These are what I have come up with so far for choices in the $500 and under ebay price range.
Echo Auofire 12
Delta 1010
mauido Profire 2626
Maudio Prostudio 610
RME HDSP 9632

If anyone hasn't lost hope in my quest, thanks in advance for the reply.

lilakmonoke · Posted: Tue Apr 24, 2012 1:40 pm Post subject:

this is hilarious, i think by now we have gone through every possibility and you are back to square one. just buy a few more crappy interfaces and find out for yourself ... or buy quality and start working. an rme fireface uc is around 600 and on the way down but i said that before. im done with this thread.

Babaluma · Posted: Tue Apr 24, 2012 2:11 pm Post subject:

exactly, me too!

"you get what you pay for", i learnt that a LOOOOOOONG time ago.

jeannot · Posted: Tue Apr 24, 2012 2:18 pm Post subject:

Babaluma · Posted: Tue Apr 24, 2012 2:27 pm Post subject:

i was kinda freaked out when i bought my last interface. it's an RME but contains no preamps, no line ins or outs, and no converters, and yet still cost me about $1000. wink

does it's job EXCEEDINGLY well though.

jeannot · Posted: Tue Apr 24, 2012 2:45 pm Post subject:

Looks like we've all exhausted the options

Let's dance The Chewbacca Defense