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WIGGLING 'LITE' IN GUEST MODE

Matrix
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Author Matrix
BugBrand
I don't usually post too much for discussion during development, but thought I could see what people think this time. Maybe I'm unsure on demand, maybe I realise already there should be some changes, maybe I just want to experiment with discussion..

First off, just to be clear - this project isn't really a main focus for me at the moment - I've bandied around ideas of Matrix Mixers for several years (there was the 4x4 in the modular line and I almost got going on a very big mixer collaboration project a few years back..). So, don't yet count on this actually ever reaching fruition - and anything will likely be some way off anyways. (did I kill the buzz enough already?!). As I said, partly I'm interested to see if people are interested!

I've seen a few PASSIVE Matrix Mixers appearing of late. But for proper fidelity and control, I really think ACTIVE is the only way - just as with regular mixers.
How big? Well, you'll almost always want more inputs than outputs (so some can be used as effects returns most likely).
Does a 6 x 4 provide enough, but not too much?

This initial iteration has:
- input preamps for line level signals (fine with modular though AC coupled, of course) + simple clip level leds (at this stage, keeping it simple)
- 24 knob matrix
- output buffer / level controls

Having tried this, I do feel already there is need for:
- improved signal level indication - 2 or more leds per input and maybe the same for each output.
- still doubtful about whether phase and/or boost/pad switches may be good
- maybe impedance balance the outputs.
- scribble space (white rectangles) on the panel to note input/outputs.

One other thought would be to treat the lower two rows differently - change one row to PAN and the other to LEVEL. Saying that, same could be done for the upper two rows too. It is a subtle but perhaps useful difference.

Oh and I haven't yet tried any form of zener/diode level limiting - something I've used a bit of in recent designs & which could well be useful here - - definitely something for me to try in the next stage.

The build size is twice the length of my current standalones (ie. 6 FracWidth) with internal DCDC power conversion. Decent, but not over-the-top-$$$ opamps inside.

I don't think anything really exists along these lines at present?

(sorry for the slightly shitty picture)
flippantminister
i would definitely be interested in an active matrix mixer. i had a passive one for a while and it didnt work for me. 6x4 would be sufficient. signal level leds would be a rad bonus. and having all this in bugbrand blue would be a major selling point.
numan7
thumbs up sounds very, very interesting to me!

hmmm..... 6 x 4 means i can patch it as 4 x 2 with 2 channels of feedback (that can be routed through a pair of vcas, for example). that should be sufficient for my purposes, although i wouldn't if there were another pair of inputs.

i would be really keen on mute switches, for each input-output pairing.

and i am curious about how having one row of level pots and another row of pan pots would work - does it become a 6 x 2 mixer then?

cheers
dadek
super-interested. i have a matrix, and would much rather deal with an active mixer.
i'd love a way to link, for a 12x4 or just a bigger one.
Zeitdehner
8_)
hmmm.....

6x4 seems like a sensible size for the matrix, the same as the Hordijk one I use.
Would be cool though to be able to input DC signals as well as AC signals, and to have bi-polar level control over the nodes (matrix intersections)...must be technically feasible, I think ( maybe the cost would get kind of prohibitive...)
Oh, and double up inputs and outputs with bananas and 1/4" jacks (or 1/8" jacks) to be able to crosspatch banana modulars, jack modulars and outboard gear ... that's what I'm gonna do by modding a passive matrix mixer Mr. Green

Also, it feels more natural to me to have input level controls at the "bottom" of the unit...but this is just a matter of getting used to...

thumbs up
pugix
I wonder if 6 inputs is too many. I recently built some DIY active matrix mixers. (I color coded the jacks according to BugBrand!)

http://pugix.com/synth/the-blue-panel/

I considered a 6 by 4, but then asked myself how often I would want to actually mix 6 signals together. I ended up making a 4 x 4 and a 4 x 2. That gave me 8 inputs and 6 outputs and seemed more flexible (not to mention that it fit my panel space well). I think in stand-alone I would prefer to have two 4 x 4, rather than a 6 x 4.

I do like the idea of master input and output level controls (your yellow and green knobs) for the columns and rows, although I think the master input level controls might be the more useful of the two, if I had to limit panel space.
BugBrand
Choice of 6 ins / 4 outs well..
I was seeing that as 3 or 4 mono sources, 2 effects sends/returns and stereo output. (maybe I'm thinking too boring though..)

As I say (replying to Richard/Pugix) - I do think you tend to need more inputs due to effects returns.

The PAN idea mentioned - no, doesn't make it a 6 x 2 - works like on a 2-buss mixer, for example -- so pan to LEFT for channel 1, pan to right for channel 2. This'd make the lower 2 channels more easily useable for standard stereo setup. (perhaps?!)

Linking -- yeah, dunno... I'm generally liking thinking in self-contained approaches at the moment.
Mute Switches -- yes, maybe..

AC/DC -- DC doesn't really make sense when you have preamps etc - this is designed for line signals - modular AUDIO signals will work fine, but modular CV signals don't make sense for it. (passive matrix is fine for that, actually)

Cheers so far.
tIB
Mute switches and ouput blinknelights would make me happy.

I wonder if a lesser specced/slimmer CV matrix mixer might be a useful thing to have in the standalone format? (perhaps even just a couple of a similar design to the dual DC mixer)

Anyway, interested to see where this ends up... I hope to be in for one.
otoskope
6x4 is a good size. I'm a bit hesitant about making the lower 2 output tracks a stereo track by having Level+Pan instead of two levels. In theory you can do the same things, but you interact with it differently. Maybe it would be good, allowing it to be used as a normal mixer with two sends, ans you say, Tom. Maybe it complicates the more wild matrix-specific uses.

Bananas+jacks would certainly be a plus for us bananaheads. I'd love to have a mixer like this as the output stage on my modular...

You could add a bus connector for a flat cable on the PCB to allow for channel expansion. Shouldn't complicate the circuit too much (but I'm no expert).

Regarding zener limiting - might be a nice feature, but a bit off target. I think high headroom is more important.

/Palle
cebec
otoskope wrote:


Bananas+jacks would certainly be a plus for us bananaheads. I'd love to have a mixer like this as the output stage on my modular...

/Palle


I second that!
ear ear
This would be great! smile Yes to banana and 1/4", balanced outs, and some scope for inversion/feedback.
KNYST
pugix wrote:
http://pugix.com/synth/the-blue-panel/

Don't know if it's just the photo, but those nanas look extra colourful... What brand are those, and where did you buy 'em?
pugix
Johnson/Emerson banana jacks from Mouser. Green part #530-1080904-1. Photoshop enhanced. Mr. Green
KNYST
^
Johnson/Emersons? Now that's some serious Photoshopping hihi

Cheers
soup
Yes please.
numan7
BugBrand wrote:
Mute Switches -- yes, maybe..


w00twe're not worthy hooray, tho i would also be just fine with the original design shown on p1 (esp if items such as click/thud-free operation of the switches adds signiciantly to product cost and development time - knowing BugBrand! tho, i think i can solidly hope for clever solutions).

cheers
BugBrand
Funny - I was just thinking on the bus back to Bristol today that I'd not progressed at all with the matrix ideas and wondered if anyone would notice sometime.. !!
opsysbug
I'm still in love with the Matrix Mixer!

Happy Xmas Tom!
numan7
:tu: i actually woke up thinking about the :bugbrand: matrix this morning (i believe it came in at the end of a dream concerning ciat-lonbarde instruments, where i had too many outputs that i wanted to mix).... anyways, happy winter holidays all!

cheers
slow_riot
matrix mixing is great. imo it works best with level control on the inputs and using switches to add an input onto a specified output rather than a bank of pots. becomes a very usable calculator in that instance!

my Hinton SwitchMix is very well designed. I use the Trimmer module before hand, and each input is automatically daisychained to the the input below it. There are also switches to invert these inputs.
wednesdayayay
I'm looking for a matrix mixer solution currently for my ciat lonbarde setup. I love your current standalone solutions I'll have to watch your site It's motherfucking bacon yo
diasporos
wednesdayayay wrote:
I'm looking for a matrix mixer solution currently for my ciat lonbarde setup. I love your current standalone solutions I'll have to watch your site It's motherfucking bacon yo


Have you checked out the Repeater Electronics matrices? Passive 4x4. I have two and they are great for CL gear though some amplification after the signal helps.
wednesdayayay
what do you use to amp?
Kalerne
Dear Bug,

Do you still have plan to work on this matrix mixer ?
BugBrand
Unfortunately it seems to be an area I only occasionally come back to - I did have another bash at ideas over the summer, but still no real progress. (I have far too many such ideas stuck in early-stage limbo..)
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