Site Migration Completed

Important announcements about the forum and other Muffwiggler.com sites.

Moderators: Kent, Joe., luketeaford, lisa

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galanter2
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Re: Site Migration Completed

Post by galanter2 » Mon Feb 17, 2020 5:04 pm

Glad to see the site is in good hands and carrying on. It's a great resource.

There's one thing though. Isn't it, finally, time to change the name?

I understand the emotional attachments, the history, and the defensive denials of bad intent, the "real" meaning of the name, and so on. But that was then, and this is now. Why have to explain all of that to potential new users? Of those you will never see because they immediately give the site a pass?

The name gives a really bad impression, and I suspect is even more off putting to females than males. There are plenty of males here. I doubt they will run away because of a name change. Isn't it time to put out a welcome mat that everyone can find inviting?

(muffwiggler.com could be kept alive and send users to the new domain name.)

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Flatscan
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Re: Site Migration Completed

Post by Flatscan » Tue Feb 18, 2020 12:51 am

I'm glad it's working well for both of you. Thank you.

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mskala
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Re: Site Migration Completed

Post by mskala » Tue Feb 18, 2020 7:52 am

This article is relevant to attempts at making the forum more marketable. I hope anyone who wants to propose cultural changes will read it and take it to heart: http://benjaminrosshoffman.com/construction-beacons/

I apparently can't use BBCode to link to that (though it may link automatically) because BBCode doesn't work here (probably per-forum config?). There are a lot of technical things like that remaining to be resolved and it'd be wise to resolve them before even looking at contentious cultural proposals anyway.

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Flatscan
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Re: Site Migration Completed

Post by Flatscan » Tue Feb 18, 2020 11:55 am

mskala wrote:
Tue Feb 18, 2020 7:52 am
I apparently can't use BBCode to link to that (though it may link automatically) because BBCode doesn't work here (probably per-forum config?). There are a lot of technical things like that remaining to be resolved and it'd be wise to resolve them before even looking at contentious cultural proposals anyway.
That's correct, BBCode is disabled in this subforum for non-admins.

AFAIK no one is proposing cultural changes. I certainly am not. My role here is keeping the lights and putting up a fresh coat of paint once in a while. The content and the culture here have been and will alwyas be defined by the users like you.

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mskala
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Re: Site Migration Completed

Post by mskala » Tue Feb 18, 2020 12:41 pm

Flatscan wrote:
> AFAIK no one is proposing cultural changes.

That was my polite way of referring to the suggestion that the forum should be renamed.

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Flatscan
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Re: Site Migration Completed

Post by Flatscan » Tue Feb 18, 2020 12:55 pm

mskala wrote:
Tue Feb 18, 2020 12:41 pm
Flatscan wrote:
> AFAIK no one is proposing cultural changes.

That was my polite way of referring to the suggestion that the forum should be renamed.
And that was my polite way of saying aloud that a name change is not currently on the table. That conversation has been had by the admins and the concensus is clear.

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Prunesquallor
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Re: Site Migration Completed

Post by Prunesquallor » Wed Feb 19, 2020 6:03 am

Flatscan wrote:
> [quote=mskala post_id=3204584 time=1582047671 user_id=16919]
> Flatscan wrote:
> > AFAIK no one is proposing cultural changes.
>
> That was my polite way of referring to the suggestion that the forum should be
> renamed.
> [/quote]
>
> And that was my polite way of saying aloud that a name change is not currently on the
> table. That conversation has been had by the admins and the concensus is clear.

All three of them? A wider debate is needed, I think, and possibly a membership vote.

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Prunesquallor
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Re: Site Migration Completed

Post by Prunesquallor » Wed Feb 19, 2020 6:04 am

BTW, I'll echo what's been said above. Fantastic work on the site, Flatscan! Thank you!

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galanter2
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Re: Site Migration Completed

Post by galanter2 » Wed Feb 19, 2020 2:20 pm

mskala wrote:
> This article is relevant to attempts at making the forum more marketable.
> I hope anyone who wants to propose cultural changes will read it and take
> it to heart: http://benjaminrosshoffman.com/construction-beacons/

Who said the main point was marketability?

And giving someone a reading assignment rather than a straight answer is not being responsive. Or clever.

I'll leave this alone for now after making this observation:

As long as this site insists on what is obviously a patently offensive name…and it is…any other discussions of "morality" should be considered in bad faith and without moral authority.

(One example "Behringer: practices, ethics, morals and legitimacy. ")

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Re: Site Migration Completed

Post by Teusa Rass » Wed Feb 19, 2020 4:24 pm

an answer to galanter2 might be this quotation from Stephen Fry:

"It's now very common to hear people say. "I'm rather offended by that."
As if that gives them certain rights. It's actually nothing more...than a whine.
"I find that offensive."
It has no meaning; it has no purpose; it has no reason to be respected
as a phrase. "I am offended by that."
Well, so fucking what."
-Stephen Fry

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galanter2
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Re: Site Migration Completed

Post by galanter2 » Thu Feb 20, 2020 1:16 am

Let me be more precise, although I thought I could assume some base level of interpretative competence.

It’s not that it offends me per se. It’s that in it’s implicit vulgarity, in the image it brings to mind, it invokes women as mere sexual flesh in a way that supports the general sexism in the culture. It’s textual pornography that contributes to an atmosphere of objectification.

To make that the flag that flies over what many here refer to as a “community,” creates a (false) identity that keeps people away. It’s not that they don’t have a love of synths in common. But they don’t want to part of a clubhouse with a totally unrelated sexist flag flying over it.

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01235813
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Re: Site Migration Completed

Post by 01235813 » Thu Feb 20, 2020 1:42 am

galanter2 wrote:
> Let me be more precise, although I thought I could assume some base level
> of interpretative competence.
>
> It’s not that it offends me per se. It’s that in it’s implicit vulgarity,
> in the image it brings to mind, it invokes women as mere sexual flesh in a
> way that supports the general sexism in the culture. It’s textual
> pornography that contributes to an atmosphere of objectification.
>
> To make that the flag that flies over what many here refer to as a
> “community,” creates a (false) identity that keeps people away. It’s not
> that they don’t have a love of synths in common. But they don’t want to
> part of a clubhouse with a totally unrelated sexist flag flying over it.


This is obviously an important topic for you and I respect that, I think this may not be the best place to hold this discussion.

What do you think about taking it to a dedicated thread?

viewtopic.php?f=10&t=488&start=1150

Teusa Rass
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Re: Site Migration Completed

Post by Teusa Rass » Thu Feb 20, 2020 4:20 pm

At galanter2:
So, I understand that You did not read, and if so, did not understand
this remarkable text, that might be applied to precisely Your complaints?
http://benjaminrosshoffman.com/construction-beacons/

I'm grateful for this link, it applies to so very much activities
I'd been part of.

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Leverkusen
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Re: Site Migration Completed

Post by Leverkusen » Sat Feb 22, 2020 9:14 am

There is a behavior coming up every now and then that I did not experience before the change.

Sometimes threads are appearing in my "your posts" list with an indicator of a new post. I can see the post in the list of new posts with the date of today, but there is no new post in the thread when I click on it. Also it stays in my new and unread posts list and has the blue icon indicating an unread post, no matter how often I open the thread.

Right now I have this with this thread: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=222008&start=25

In the past it changed when someone posts in that thread and went back to normal but the promised post never appears in that thread and seems to be lost for ever.

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spacenoodle
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Re: Site Migration Completed

Post by spacenoodle » Sat Feb 22, 2020 8:01 pm

Leverkusen wrote:
> There is a behavior coming up every now and then that I did not experience
> before the change.
>
> Sometimes threads are appearing in my "your posts" list with an
> indicator of a new post. I can see the post in the list of new posts with
> the date of today, but there is no new post in the thread when I click on
> it. Also it stays in my new and unread posts list and has the blue icon
> indicating an unread post, no matter how often I open the thread.
>
> Right now I have this with this thread:
> viewtopic.php?f=3&t=222008&start=25
>
> In the past it changed when someone posts in that thread and went back to
> normal but the promised post never appears in that thread and seems to be
> lost for ever.

I had posted a question in this thread, probably the most recent, and it's gone. I was asking blech where the problematic Zen was purchased from (because I intended to buy one but am concerned about buying from the same place or from the same batch). So...?

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solipsvs
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Re: Site Migration Completed

Post by solipsvs » Sat Feb 22, 2020 8:07 pm

are links to amazon product pages disallowed?

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Fog Door
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Re: Site Migration Completed

Post by Fog Door » Sat Feb 22, 2020 9:26 pm

I've been mulling it over for a few days, and I know this post won't win me any friends. I've decided I cannot let mskala and galanter2 stand alone, my conscience dictates that I must post, but I will keep it brief -

This is not the correct thread to talk about a forum name change, but referring somebody to a discussion from 2018 is pathetic. The front lines on the inclusion map have changed rapidly since then and what is acceptable to civilised people is an ongoing debate.

When forum members have taken the time to make serious and well reasoned posts setting out their point of view, it is utterly weak to link them to somebody else's work/opinions. Why hide behind the words of others, lazybones? Especially when you are obviously missing the point and the link is wholly irrelevant.

I am not the kind of individual that goes on some righteous crusade about political correctness. To be honest, I'm pretty much a self centred, depraved type mother****er. I am not in any sense offended by the name of the forum, but its not about us is it? The "Old Boys Club"? Its about the feelings of the potential forum members of tomorrow.

Tempted as I am, I am not going to start a new thread, Flatscan says the issue has been decided and I respect that. I did not know Mike but I will be forever grateful for what he built here and if the name is an important part of that legacy - so be it. Despite that, I would be interested to know how many people would feel comfortable having a chat with Wendy Carlos about "Muff Wiggler".

That's all. I have discharged my responsibility, I can tell my grandchildren I tried.*

Love, peace and good vibrations to all :)

*please note - I have neither children nor grandchildren.

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mskala
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Re: Site Migration Completed

Post by mskala » Sat Feb 22, 2020 11:07 pm

Fog Door wrote:
> Why hide behind the words of others, lazybones? Especially when you are obviously missing the point

Any obligation I might have had to explain my position to you ended right there.

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Leverkusen
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Re: Site Migration Completed

Post by Leverkusen » Sun Feb 23, 2020 12:12 am

spacenoodle wrote:
> Leverkusen wrote:
> > There is a behavior coming up every now and then that I did not experience
> > before the change.
> >
> > Sometimes threads are appearing in my "your posts" list with an
> > indicator of a new post. I can see the post in the list of new posts with
> > the date of today, but there is no new post in the thread when I click on
> > it. Also it stays in my new and unread posts list and has the blue icon
> > indicating an unread post, no matter how often I open the thread.
> >
> > Right now I have this with this thread:
> > viewtopic.php?f=3&t=222008&start=25
> >
> > In the past it changed when someone posts in that thread and went back to
> > normal but the promised post never appears in that thread and seems to be
> > lost for ever.
>
> I had posted a question in this thread, probably the most recent, and it's gone. I
> was asking blech where the problematic Zen was purchased from (because I intended to
> buy one but am concerned about buying from the same place or from the same batch).
> So...?

The last "new post" indicated for that thread but not showing up was made by Karl_Joseph. So it seems as if posts are regularly getting lost since the migration.

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Leverkusen
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Re: Site Migration Completed

Post by Leverkusen » Sun Feb 23, 2020 12:17 am

Oh, and how does citation with boxes now work?

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Flatscan
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Re: Site Migration Completed

Post by Flatscan » Sun Feb 23, 2020 1:33 am

Leverkusen wrote:
Sun Feb 23, 2020 12:12 am
The last "new post" indicated for that thread but not showing up was made by Karl_Joseph. So it seems as if posts are regularly getting lost since the migration.
I've had a few reports of this since the migration. Most couldn't be pointed out, but a few I did trace down two of them to problems with posts I had manually recovered from backups and tried to brute force back into the system.

If you're seeing this behaviour, please DM me OR start a new thread here including:
  • Link to the topic
  • Username of missing post's author
  • Suspected date of the missing post (is it the newest post in the topic? If not, where should it fit in?)

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Fog Door
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Re: Site Migration Completed

Post by Fog Door » Sun Feb 23, 2020 6:38 am

Fog Door wrote:

>
> This is not the correct thread to talk about a forum name change, but
> referring somebody to a discussion from 2018 is pathetic.

I have had a chat with 01235813 via PM and I was mistaken in thinking he was trolling galanter2 by referring him to a closed poll. I accept it was a genuine attempt to redirect galanter2 to a more appropriate thread and I offer my sincere apologies to 01235813 for my mistake.

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