The modules that should exist (but don't)

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Bitnik
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Re: The modules that should exist (but don't)

Post by Bitnik » Tue Jan 14, 2020 10:26 am

megarat wrote:
Tue Jan 14, 2020 9:56 am
That's an interesting idea, but that would only give you one voltage out. I think there's merit in having multiple outs, perhaps routed to different modules, or (e.g.) multiple inputs on a sequential switch. Also, I think the dial would be a less-precise performance instrument than a single physical switch (which is what I use with the adder), and switching between voltages with a dial might introduce noise from the other voltages that you're passing through.
Thanks for this. I'm still learning about practical modular composition so this kind of explanation is much needed.

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Re: The modules that should exist (but don't)

Post by R.U.Nuts » Tue Jan 14, 2020 2:25 pm

Buttons ARE toys wrote:
Tue Jan 14, 2020 7:49 am
Arneb wrote:
Mon Jan 13, 2020 4:55 pm
Not sure whether I understand you right... do you mean something like (dual) Delay -> VCA In, Burst gen -> Euclidean sequencer -> AHD EG -> VCA CV, but in one module?
No I mean the actual delay taps would be laid out on a euclidean trigger scheme. Similar to pattern delays if you've ever used one. They'll give you like 16 delay taps across the whole delay buffer and you can turn those taps on or off, creating rhythms. So a euclidean delay module would do this but instead of selecting which individual taps you want on or off, you would just set it to, say, 7 active taps across 16 total and then choose whether the first tap occurs on the first beat, or second, fifth, etc.
Doesn't the tapographic delay by 4MS do this? You could use an euclidean sequencer to create the "tapography".

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Re: The modules that should exist (but don't)

Post by Buttons ARE toys » Tue Jan 14, 2020 2:57 pm

R.U.Nuts wrote:
Tue Jan 14, 2020 2:25 pm
Buttons ARE toys wrote:
Tue Jan 14, 2020 7:49 am
Arneb wrote:
Mon Jan 13, 2020 4:55 pm
Not sure whether I understand you right... do you mean something like (dual) Delay -> VCA In, Burst gen -> Euclidean sequencer -> AHD EG -> VCA CV, but in one module?
No I mean the actual delay taps would be laid out on a euclidean trigger scheme. Similar to pattern delays if you've ever used one. They'll give you like 16 delay taps across the whole delay buffer and you can turn those taps on or off, creating rhythms. So a euclidean delay module would do this but instead of selecting which individual taps you want on or off, you would just set it to, say, 7 active taps across 16 total and then choose whether the first tap occurs on the first beat, or second, fifth, etc.
Doesn't the tapographic delay by 4MS do this? You could use an euclidean sequencer to create the "tapography".
Definitely looks like it could. Though I wonder how exactly it responds to changes in the incoming tap pattern. If you send it a pattern that plays taps on beats 1, 3, 5, and 7 of an 8 beat sequence, and then shift that pattern forward one step, will the Tapographic erase the old pattern and now play taps on beats 2, 4, 6, 8? Or will it just start adding all of them between the existing taps so you end up with taps on every beat?
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Re: The modules that should exist (but don't)

Post by megarat » Tue Jan 14, 2020 3:14 pm

Bitnik wrote:
Tue Jan 14, 2020 10:26 am
Thanks for this. I'm still learning about practical modular composition so this kind of explanation is much needed.
Happy to oblige, I love discussing this stuff.

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Re:

Post by pzriddle » Tue Jan 14, 2020 8:53 pm

strettara wrote:
Sun Jun 29, 2014 3:32 am
I would like an LFO with a digital readout so I could set it precisely to cycle once every 23 seconds or whatever. Something like a z3000, but as an LFO - cycle times from say 0,0005 Hz (around 30 minutes) to 50 Hz.
I’d like more numeric control in general. Maths is awesome but how about some actual math? An interface that let you plug numbers into simple algebraic functions around CV inputs would be very interesting.

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Re: Re:

Post by strettara » Wed Jan 15, 2020 12:16 am

pzriddle wrote:
Tue Jan 14, 2020 8:53 pm
strettara wrote:
Sun Jun 29, 2014 3:32 am
I would like an LFO with a digital readout so I could set it precisely to cycle once every 23 seconds or whatever. Something like a z3000, but as an LFO - cycle times from say 0,0005 Hz (around 30 minutes) to 50 Hz.
I’d like more numeric control in general. Maths is awesome but how about some actual math? An interface that let you plug numbers into simple algebraic functions around CV inputs would be very interesting.
There was a guy some years ago who developed a CV computer, basically a small PC in eurorack format, that seemed very promising. It got a lot of hate, of course, and I don't think it ever went into production. I think the monome people are the ones to go to now for that kind of thing.

BTW - that post of mine is from 5 years ago... I sold my modular around that time.
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Re: The modules that should exist (but don't)

Post by Gringo Starr » Wed Jan 15, 2020 12:56 am

Does this exist?

Samples change speed as pitch changes. I’d love to see a sampler that could take a ten second vocal melody that was recorded at 120bpm for example, and be able to tell the sampler that the sample is 120bpm, and then as the the user changes pitch/speed of the sample it shows you what BPM its currently at.

Is that even possible?
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Re: The modules that should exist (but don't)

Post by Arneb » Wed Jan 15, 2020 1:10 am

Gringo Starr wrote:
Wed Jan 15, 2020 12:56 am
Does this exist?

Samples change speed as pitch changes. I’d love to see a sampler that could take a ten second vocal melody that was recorded at 120bpm for example, and be able to tell the sampler that the sample is 120bpm, and then as the the user changes pitch/speed of the sample it shows you what BPM its currently at.

Is that even possible?
By "changing pitch/speed", do you mean control over pitch and speed separately, or just normal pitch changes coming from speed changes? If the latter, it's almost trivial, every beginner DJ software can do it, it's just that sampler makers prefer to express speed changes in terms of multiples instead of bpm. If the former, Audacity has this functionality, but can't do it in real time; I'm not sure about the algorithm used, but I guess it's computationally too hard for Eurorack.

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Re: The modules that should exist (but don't)

Post by Jaypee » Wed Jan 15, 2020 1:23 am

I dream of an euclidean generator integrating boolean operators.

For instance :

The second track doesn't play when the 1st track plays.

The 3rd track doesn't play when the first AND the second one play. And so on.

In other words: the first track has the 1st priority. Whenever the 1st track plays, the other don't.
The second track has the priority over the 3rd.
The third track only plays when the 1st, and 2nd track don't play.
And so on.

I know doepfer 166 exists and I tried it, but in reality, it doesn't work so well. I still have very small trigger because, 166 needs "some" time to analyse the several inputs.

Wish I could hack O_C Piqued mode and implement this...
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Re: The modules that should exist (but don't)

Post by Gringo Starr » Wed Jan 15, 2020 3:07 am

Arneb wrote:
Wed Jan 15, 2020 1:10 am
Gringo Starr wrote:
Wed Jan 15, 2020 12:56 am
Does this exist?

Samples change speed as pitch changes. I’d love to see a sampler that could take a ten second vocal melody that was recorded at 120bpm for example, and be able to tell the sampler that the sample is 120bpm, and then as the the user changes pitch/speed of the sample it shows you what BPM its currently at.

Is that even possible?
By "changing pitch/speed", do you mean control over pitch and speed separately, or just normal pitch changes coming from speed changes? If the latter, it's almost trivial, every beginner DJ software can do it, it's just that sampler makers prefer to express speed changes in terms of multiples instead of bpm. If the former, Audacity has this functionality, but can't do it in real time; I'm not sure about the algorithm used, but I guess it's computationally too hard for Eurorack.
What I meant was this... I put a sample in and tell the sampler that it was recorded at 120bpm. Then when I raise the pitch of the sample, which normally then increases the speed of the sample, the sampler displays what the new BPM is.
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Re: The modules that should exist (but don't)

Post by Arneb » Wed Jan 15, 2020 4:18 am

Jaypee wrote:
Wed Jan 15, 2020 1:23 am
I dream of an euclidean generator integrating boolean operators.

For instance :

The second track doesn't play when the 1st track plays.

The 3rd track doesn't play when the first AND the second one play. And so on.

In other words: the first track has the 1st priority. Whenever the 1st track plays, the other don't.
The second track has the priority over the 3rd.
The third track only plays when the 1st, and 2nd track don't play.
And so on.

I know doepfer 166 exists and I tried it, but in reality, it doesn't work so well. I still have very small trigger because, 166 needs "some" time to analyse the several inputs.

Wish I could hack O_C Piqued mode and implement this...
I'm not entirely sure what you mean by "play", but you should probably take a hard look at VPME Euclidean Circles. You have:
- Offbeat mode, where tracks 4-6 are NOT 1-3, i.e. 4 goes low whenever 1 goes high, etc.
- The so-called Prescale mode, which can be interpreted as an AND of sorts - basically, track 2 is slaved to track 1; imagine you're using two separate trigger sequencers and patching the first's output into the second's CLK IN
- Both in conjunction

It's not full Boolean logic, I'm still using an OR afterwards (which is less susceptible to timing problems on triggers than AND), but it can get you pretty far. You could, for instance, patch your example by enabling both Offbeat and Prescale mode and get your "first track" from Channel 4, the "second" one from Channel 2, and the "third" one from Channel 5.

Prescale mode seems to have gone unnoticed by most EC users; at least, it's not talked about much in EC threads. My own view is that it's more useful than even VPME himself thinks it is, and that it's possibly the single most underrated module feature in the entire Eurorack ecosystem.

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Re: The modules that should exist (but don't)

Post by Bitnik » Wed Jan 15, 2020 5:56 am

Gringo Starr wrote:
Wed Jan 15, 2020 3:07 am

What I meant was this... I put a sample in and tell the sampler that it was recorded at 120bpm. Then when I raise the pitch of the sample, which normally then increases the speed of the sample, the sampler displays what the new BPM is.
That kind of module should be simple to construct with a microcontroller monitoring the pitch bend CV (or whatever else is used to change the pitch.) Even simpler, a kind of circular slide rule on the pitch knob would do the job.

I mean, say your pitch CV rises according to the position of a linear pot. You'd just have to place a cardboard or aluminium collar underneath the knob. It would have to be graduated in BPM so for any two positions X and X' on the dial that represent a voltage difference of 1V (being one octave) the BPM at X' will be twice that at X. In other words, a logarithmic scale. When you zero the knob to play the sample at original speed, you rotate the collar so that your original BPM is beneath the pointer. Then when you pitch bend the sample, you can easily read off the new BPM under the new position of the pointer.

This wouldn't fit every use case, but it would be a great way to use another analogue technology (the slide rule) in music production.

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Re: The modules that should exist (but don't)

Post by Jaypee » Wed Jan 15, 2020 6:22 am

Arneb wrote:
Wed Jan 15, 2020 4:18 am
Jaypee wrote:
Wed Jan 15, 2020 1:23 am
I dream of an euclidean generator integrating boolean operators.

For instance :

The second track doesn't play when the 1st track plays.

The 3rd track doesn't play when the first AND the second one play. And so on.

In other words: the first track has the 1st priority. Whenever the 1st track plays, the other don't.
The second track has the priority over the 3rd.
The third track only plays when the 1st, and 2nd track don't play.
And so on.

I know doepfer 166 exists and I tried it, but in reality, it doesn't work so well. I still have very small trigger because, 166 needs "some" time to analyse the several inputs.

Wish I could hack O_C Piqued mode and implement this...
I'm not entirely sure what you mean by "play", but you should probably take a hard look at VPME Euclidean Circles. You have:
- Offbeat mode, where tracks 4-6 are NOT 1-3, i.e. 4 goes low whenever 1 goes high, etc.
- The so-called Prescale mode, which can be interpreted as an AND of sorts - basically, track 2 is slaved to track 1; imagine you're using two separate trigger sequencers and patching the first's output into the second's CLK IN
- Both in conjunction

It's not full Boolean logic, I'm still using an OR afterwards (which is less susceptible to timing problems on triggers than AND), but it can get you pretty far. You could, for instance, patch your example by enabling both Offbeat and Prescale mode and get your "first track" from Channel 4, the "second" one from Channel 2, and the "third" one from Channel 5.

Prescale mode seems to have gone unnoticed by most EC users; at least, it's not talked about much in EC threads. My own view is that it's more useful than even VPME himself thinks it is, and that it's possibly the single most underrated module feature in the entire Eurorack ecosystem.
Yes sorry, it was clear in my mind though :)

Play = send trigger/gate
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Re: The modules that should exist (but don't)

Post by R.U.Nuts » Thu Jan 16, 2020 2:37 am

Gringo Starr wrote:
Wed Jan 15, 2020 3:07 am
Arneb wrote:
Wed Jan 15, 2020 1:10 am
Gringo Starr wrote:
Wed Jan 15, 2020 12:56 am
Does this exist?

Samples change speed as pitch changes. I’d love to see a sampler that could take a ten second vocal melody that was recorded at 120bpm for example, and be able to tell the sampler that the sample is 120bpm, and then as the the user changes pitch/speed of the sample it shows you what BPM its currently at.

Is that even possible?
By "changing pitch/speed", do you mean control over pitch and speed separately, or just normal pitch changes coming from speed changes? If the latter, it's almost trivial, every beginner DJ software can do it, it's just that sampler makers prefer to express speed changes in terms of multiples instead of bpm. If the former, Audacity has this functionality, but can't do it in real time; I'm not sure about the algorithm used, but I guess it's computationally too hard for Eurorack.
What I meant was this... I put a sample in and tell the sampler that it was recorded at 120bpm. Then when I raise the pitch of the sample, which normally then increases the speed of the sample, the sampler displays what the new BPM is.

That is actually quite possible if you know the initial timing of the sample and do a little maths: You'd need a sampler that offers 1V/oct tracking and a voltage metering module. Plug the voltage meter between your CV source and your sampler's CV input. Since voltage, pitch and duration of the sample have a mathematical relation you could derive the BPM from the voltage applied. Simple example: A sample with an original BPM of 120. Apply 1V CV. Now the sample is pitched an octave up. This means double the frequency and thus the sample playback speed is twice as fast meaning it now runs at 240 BPM.

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Re: The modules that should exist (but don't)

Post by bastian23 » Thu Jan 16, 2020 3:23 am

a module for the wet chain of a kick. which produces a hell of a rumble like LPF, REVERB, AMP, COMPRESSOR in one and maybe puts out the dry signal and the wet.

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Re: The modules that should exist (but don't)

Post by Gringo Starr » Thu Jan 16, 2020 8:31 pm

R.U.Nuts wrote:
Thu Jan 16, 2020 2:37 am
Gringo Starr wrote:
Wed Jan 15, 2020 3:07 am
Arneb wrote:
Wed Jan 15, 2020 1:10 am
Gringo Starr wrote:
Wed Jan 15, 2020 12:56 am
Does this exist?

Samples change speed as pitch changes. I’d love to see a sampler that could take a ten second vocal melody that was recorded at 120bpm for example, and be able to tell the sampler that the sample is 120bpm, and then as the the user changes pitch/speed of the sample it shows you what BPM its currently at.

Is that even possible?
By "changing pitch/speed", do you mean control over pitch and speed separately, or just normal pitch changes coming from speed changes? If the latter, it's almost trivial, every beginner DJ software can do it, it's just that sampler makers prefer to express speed changes in terms of multiples instead of bpm. If the former, Audacity has this functionality, but can't do it in real time; I'm not sure about the algorithm used, but I guess it's computationally too hard for Eurorack.
What I meant was this... I put a sample in and tell the sampler that it was recorded at 120bpm. Then when I raise the pitch of the sample, which normally then increases the speed of the sample, the sampler displays what the new BPM is.

That is actually quite possible if you know the initial timing of the sample and do a little maths: You'd need a sampler that offers 1V/oct tracking and a voltage metering module. Plug the voltage meter between your CV source and your sampler's CV input. Since voltage, pitch and duration of the sample have a mathematical relation you could derive the BPM from the voltage applied. Simple example: A sample with an original BPM of 120. Apply 1V CV. Now the sample is pitched an octave up. This means double the frequency and thus the sample playback speed is twice as fast meaning it now runs at 240 BPM.
Does it work out exectly like that? Then you would divide the original sample rate that’s 120bpm by 12 which adds 10bpm per half step of raised pitch. So if you raised the pitch two whole steps for example, then you’d add 40bpm to the original 120 and end up with 160bpm?

Is it that straight forward?
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Re: The modules that should exist (but don't)

Post by mskala » Thu Jan 16, 2020 10:35 pm

Gringo Starr wrote:
Thu Jan 16, 2020 8:31 pm
Does it work out exectly like that? Then you would divide the original sample rate that’s 120bpm by 12 which adds 10bpm per half step of raised pitch. So if you raised the pitch two whole steps for example, then you’d add 40bpm to the original 120 and end up with 160bpm?

Is it that straight forward?
Unfortunately, no. Think about how that logic would work if you took it through two octaves. Start at 120bpm. Go an octave up, you get 240bpm. Go up another octave, you get 480bpm (which is crazy fast, but never mind that). In the last half-step of the first octave you'd be going from 220bpm to 240bpm, an increase of 20bpm... but then in the first half-step of the second octave, you're suddenly going from 240bpm to 280bpm, an increase of 40bpm. It just doesn't make sense for the half-steps to be of one fixed size and then suddenly change to a different fixed size like that. Instead, each one has to be a little bigger than the last, increasing in a smooth way.

The math that makes it work out properly is that a pitch increase corresponds to multiplying by a constant number, not adding. Each half-step multiplies the rate by the 12th root of 2, which is about 1.0595. So if your sample is at 120bpm and you speed it up so that the pitches increase by one half-step, the resulting sample will be at 120*1.0595... = 127.136bpm. Then the next half-step takes it to 127.136*1.0595... = 134.695bpm, and so on; do that 12 times and you get to 240bpm.

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Re: Re:

Post by b9 » Thu Jan 16, 2020 11:17 pm

pzriddle wrote:
Tue Jan 14, 2020 8:53 pm
strettara wrote:
Sun Jun 29, 2014 3:32 am
I would like an LFO with a digital readout so I could set it precisely to cycle once every 23 seconds or whatever. Something like a z3000, but as an LFO - cycle times from say 0,0005 Hz (around 30 minutes) to 50 Hz.
I’d like more numeric control in general. Maths is awesome but how about some actual math? An interface that let you plug numbers into simple algebraic functions around CV inputs would be very interesting.
The er-102 adds some general math functionality to the er-101 sequencer. And just the er-101 by itself can program some pretty specific lfo's

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Re: Re:

Post by dubonaire » Thu Jan 16, 2020 11:25 pm

strettara wrote:
Wed Jan 15, 2020 12:16 am
pzriddle wrote:
Tue Jan 14, 2020 8:53 pm
strettara wrote:
Sun Jun 29, 2014 3:32 am
I would like an LFO with a digital readout so I could set it precisely to cycle once every 23 seconds or whatever. Something like a z3000, but as an LFO - cycle times from say 0,0005 Hz (around 30 minutes) to 50 Hz.
I’d like more numeric control in general. Maths is awesome but how about some actual math? An interface that let you plug numbers into simple algebraic functions around CV inputs would be very interesting.
There was a guy some years ago who developed a CV computer, basically a small PC in eurorack format, that seemed very promising. It got a lot of hate, of course, and I don't think it ever went into production. I think the monome people are the ones to go to now for that kind of thing.

BTW - that post of mine is from 5 years ago... I sold my modular around that time.
Just fyi Mordax Data does this down to 0.01Hz which is 1 cycle every hundred seconds.

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Re: The modules that should exist (but don't)

Post by Gringo Starr » Fri Jan 17, 2020 1:02 am

mskala wrote:
Thu Jan 16, 2020 10:35 pm
Gringo Starr wrote:
Thu Jan 16, 2020 8:31 pm
Does it work out exectly like that? Then you would divide the original sample rate that’s 120bpm by 12 which adds 10bpm per half step of raised pitch. So if you raised the pitch two whole steps for example, then you’d add 40bpm to the original 120 and end up with 160bpm?

Is it that straight forward?
Unfortunately, no. Think about how that logic would work if you took it through two octaves. Start at 120bpm. Go an octave up, you get 240bpm. Go up another octave, you get 480bpm (which is crazy fast, but never mind that). In the last half-step of the first octave you'd be going from 220bpm to 240bpm, an increase of 20bpm... but then in the first half-step of the second octave, you're suddenly going from 240bpm to 280bpm, an increase of 40bpm. It just doesn't make sense for the half-steps to be of one fixed size and then suddenly change to a different fixed size like that. Instead, each one has to be a little bigger than the last, increasing in a smooth way.

The math that makes it work out properly is that a pitch increase corresponds to multiplying by a constant number, not adding. Each half-step multiplies the rate by the 12th root of 2, which is about 1.0595. So if your sample is at 120bpm and you speed it up so that the pitches increase by one half-step, the resulting sample will be at 120*1.0595... = 127.136bpm. Then the next half-step takes it to 127.136*1.0595... = 134.695bpm, and so on; do that 12 times and you get to 240bpm.
Ok that makes sense. Regardless that would be cool if a sampler could address pitch change specifically to BPM then. As opposed to addressing a BPM to a new altered pitch how about making the pitch change according to a specific BPM?

I’m only wanting this because with vocals specifically you get a very nice effect by raising pitch. The Beatles would do this sometimes. I believe Rubber Soul and/or Revolver was a lot of manipulation with tape speeds especially with the vocals. I’d love to have a sampler that could raise the pitch to a specific BPM. Maybe it wouldn’t work as well as I see it in my head though.
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