E102 Temporal Shifter - Expander Module

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E102 Temporal Shifter - Expander Module

Post by paults » Wed Sep 03, 2014 6:46 pm

Here is a render of the proposed Expansion panel for the upcoming E102 Quad Temporal Shifter.

Image

The FOOTSWITCH jack takes not a CV (so please don't plug LFOs or other stuff in there) but a simple switch closure (shorting tip to sleeve). This is in *series* with the LOOP switch when patched in. In order to LOOP, the LOOP switch has to be on AND the Footswitch closed.

With nothing plugged in, there is an internal switched contact that mimics a closed footswitch, so LOOP is via the toggle only.

There are 4 bright (not quite 4ms laser-beam bright) RGB LEDs (65,000 colors) that can have 3 different display modes. The modes are representative of the voltages present on the 4 output jacks. Suggestions welcome what the 3 modes look like.

This expansion needs to connect to the standard Euro power because the LEDs can draw a total of 80ma when all are on full-brightness. There is a small 8pin jumper (using MTA-100) that connects this module to the E102.

Width is 4HP.

Cost is unknown, these switches have to be custom ordered from Japan and I haven't got a quote back (probably $4 each). Probably like $99-$109 retail.

When: well the freaking aforementioned switches have a 16 WEEK lead time. Jan 2015.....groan.......

When E102: ordering parts Monday, so looing like 1st week of Nov to distribution.

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Post by daluxer » Tue Sep 09, 2014 3:18 pm

Looking neat, but are there really that much people with a footswitch?

JohnLRice

Post by JohnLRice » Tue Sep 09, 2014 4:16 pm

daluxer wrote:Looking neat, but are there really that much people with a footswitch?
Well, you could always buy a foot switch if you don't have one? After using the E102 for a while you may find that being able to switch to loop mode with your foot is a handy :hmm: thing! :mrgreen:

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Post by waveglider » Tue Sep 09, 2014 4:22 pm

I'm a little confused by the three options of color display modes?
Can you clarify that part some more? I could help with coming up with color combinations if I understood more what/why of function.

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Post by JohnLRice » Tue Sep 09, 2014 5:35 pm

Originally in this thread viewtopic.php?p=1641139#1641139 Paul stated/suggested:
The E102 Expansion has the following:

a) LOOP switch, to loop CV4 back into CV1 while ignoring CV IN. This is all done in the RAM buffer, so it is "lossless" (no A/D conversion).

b) 4 RGB LEDs, that change color/intensity with CV. Not yet sure, might be color only as intensity can be hard to assign "meaning" but I have like 16K possible colors so that should cover it.

c) Now, I have room on the panel/connector to add a 2 or 3 position toggle. Here is when I ask for suggestions what this toggle does. One thought was to have 3 different LED display modes. Or maybe add 2 quantizing tables.

Or...just have the LEDs, 1 switch and maybe a 4-way mult.

Discuss.......
So, at this point are the quantizing options not going to happen and the LEDS switch just changes the display style or? :hmm:

If the switch actually enables different quantizer etc modes, I'd change the switch label to MODES. On the other hand if the switch just changes the LED display style . .. . .

Here is one I hadn't thought of yet and would look nice and be very useful too. Have the LED colors change sequentially with each clock cycle, that way you could visually follow the signal shifting through the registers.

As an example and theoretically assuming that [off] is possible . . .
On the very first clock:
RED
[off]
[off]
[off]

Second clock:
BLUE
RED
[off]
[off]

Third clock:
GREEN
BLUE
RED
[off]

Fourth clock:
YELLOW
GREEN
BLUE
RED

For the above I'm assuming that there is no delay, or rather just a standard 1 clock delay between stages. When a delay is dialed in the next color change doesn't happen until the delay has run its course, so the color changes always indicate an output change.

And when put in LOOP mode the color of all LEDS would eventually end up as what ever color #4 was at the time LOOP was activated.

The 4 colors used could be predefined by Synth Tech or maybe they could be randomly choosen on the fly from a restricted range? (I think total random selection might produce some colors that are either not easily visable or are too much the same etc)


I'd still like to see a voltage reference display mode too, so maybe lower voltages are a range of REDs and higher voltages are range of BLUEs etc.


Maybe an "all one color" mode for people who are traditionalists?


Also, unrelated to the switch, there has been a recent thread or two about LED brightness. It would be nice to have a trimmer on the PCB so the brightness could be adjusted but it would be really nice if there was a small hole in the front panel so people can adjust it per their taste and situation. I think 4ms or somebody has that on one or more of their modules? :hmm:

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Post by paults » Tue Sep 09, 2014 8:43 pm

a) taking out different scale quantizing.

b) LED modes can be something like

1 - only 1 LED on at a time, each clock advances LED to next position. LED color mapped to voltage out (RED = -, YELLOW = +-0.5V, GREEN = +).

2 - Random color changes with every clock (within a range of "pretty", and a 'distance' algorithm so that no similar colors are adjacent)

3 - ?????

open to suggestions.

c) the footswitch is just shorting tip to sleeve, so you can cut a patch cord in half and solder on a push on-push off stompbox switch.

JohnLRice

Post by JohnLRice » Tue Sep 09, 2014 9:00 pm

paults wrote:c) the footswitch is just shorting tip to sleeve, so you can cut a patch cord in half and solder on a push on-push off stompbox switch.
Another way might be to use a SynthWerks MG-1 or similar. I think it would work to plug a shorted plug into the input and then plug the E102 expander into the down (or up) jack on the MG-1. This might be more comfortable to "play" the E102 if you are switching a lot between looping and non=looping.

Image

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Post by onthelees » Tue Sep 09, 2014 10:49 pm


Here is one I hadn't thought of yet and would look nice and be very useful too. Have the LED colors change sequentially with each clock cycle, that way you could visually follow the signal shifting through the registers.
+1

Personally, I would find it more useful to put "Loop" under gate/rising edge control, rather than have a footswitch. I can see "latching" something for a long period of time, or having a very short timebase and clocking the Looping back and forth, kind of like "Hold" on a delay. Would this work with the current design?

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Post by paults » Wed Sep 10, 2014 1:18 am

Well, it's not cast in concrete yet. A footswitch is "free" electronics-wise. Yes, I can add a comparator front end that can accept Gates, LFOs, etc. It would just make it a bit more expensive (like $10 retail). And I might be able to even make it still work if you did put a shorting footswitch in there.

Will have to ponder.

JohnLRice

Post by JohnLRice » Wed Sep 10, 2014 2:06 am

paults wrote:Yes, I can add a comparator front end that can accept Gates, LFOs, etc. It would just make it a bit more expensive (like $10 retail). And I might be able to even make it still work if you did put a shorting footswitch in there.
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Post by Paranormal Patroler » Sun Sep 14, 2014 11:43 am

It's a Eurorack module so I'd go for the Gate In instead. Stands to reason and I know there's a nice and inexpensive Sustain Pedal module from ADDAC if someone really needs foot-switch functionality (ADDAC 301C). So my money is on going for Gate In to make the Loop CV controllable.

Also, regarding the LEDs I think John's suggestion is excellent. One simple mode to follow what the ADSR is doing would be perfect! It remains to be seen if a user will be able to follow a LED that changes colour depending on the incoming CV value. Even more so for four LEDs, could be crazy difficult to makes heads for tails.

If that Switch is not used up for LED Mode duties I reintroduce my initial suggestion to use it to change the order of the outputs. Imagine having four oscillators (1234) plugged to each of the outputs (1234), and having said oscillators tuned in 3ds and an octave. Would be sweet if you can flip the timing of what voices plays what just by flipping a switch. Ok, ok, granted I did do that with a Switch module, but I'd love to have that on-board the expander.

So you have first position do 1234, second position do 2341 and third position 3412. A step closer to baroque if I may add!

My 2 cents.
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Post by waveglider » Sun Sep 14, 2014 1:22 pm

Just some ideas regarding LED colors (disclosure: I work with RGB LEDs extensively in my day job):
Don't get overwhelmed with the 65k+ color options, they eye can only really differentiate maybe 16 distinct colors at a quick glance for purposes of discrete indication. Also don't try to use relative intensity, its too hard to tell in different ambient lighting conditions. I like to use color mixing to tell where you are at instead.
For instance, using red and blue to determine bipolar voltage state. If a step is active at zero volts, it shows violet (50% red, 50% blue), the more positive you go, the more blue and less red you have. +5v is all blue and -5v is all red. The eye can discern the range between the two pretty well.

Also using 'white' to indicate steps within a mode works very well too.
Say you are in mode 1. All 4 LEDs would be green in the off state to show what mode you are in, and each step would go white in turn to follow the sequence. Mode 2 would be all red, mode 3 blue, etc.

Other good complimentary color combos with easy visibility would be:
Orange/Blue
Red/Cyan
Green/Violet

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Post by soundwave106 » Sun Sep 14, 2014 2:16 pm

Paranormal Patroler wrote:It's a Eurorack module so I'd go for the Gate In instead. Stands to reason and I know there's a nice and inexpensive Sustain Pedal module from ADDAC if someone really needs foot-switch functionality (ADDAC 301C).
Doepfer has the A-177-2 as well.

I personally do use footswitches occasionally (more commonly foot pedals which is why I have two A-177-2s). But I think it's more common in Euro to sequence things. I imagine the ability to sequence loop stop / loop start would be of greater value to users, personally, and probably worth the extra cost.

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Post by paults » Sun Sep 14, 2014 2:52 pm

I am thinking a GATE is WAY better option for controlling LOOP.

Right now, battling NKK switches over actually being able to GET THE DAMN THINGS. It turns out the "footprint" I want has 'never been sold in the US' (me: REALLY??!?) and they are balking on even getting me samples. So, I may look at alternatives for the prototype, just so the SW can be written and installed when the E102 ships. It's 16 WEEKS to get the production switches anyway. Lord......

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Post by Junk Rhythm » Mon Sep 15, 2014 10:07 am

paults wrote:I am thinking a GATE is WAY better option for controlling LOOP.
+1

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Post by eskobaba » Mon Oct 20, 2014 12:06 pm

onthelees wrote:

Here is one I hadn't thought of yet and would look nice and be very useful too. Have the LED colors change sequentially with each clock cycle, that way you could visually follow the signal shifting through the registers.
+1

Personally, I would find it more useful to put "Loop" under gate/rising edge control, rather than have a footswitch. I can see "latching" something for a long period of time, or having a very short timebase and clocking the Looping back and forth, kind of like "Hold" on a delay. Would this work with the current design?
I don't even have the E102 yet but i second that.
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Post by JohnLRice » Tue Oct 21, 2014 2:20 am

Some final thoughts from me on this, and may fall into the not possible category but FWIW:

I often wished that there was some way to tell for sure how much of a delay I was dialing in, other than listening and trying to figure it out but with 4 VCOs going at once :hihi: it was often confusing. I may be wrong but it seemed like the delay amount was continuously variable, which is pretty cool for getting some unpredictable things happening. :bacon:

But my idea is to have sort of a "quantized/stepped delay clock" mode and then have the 4 LEDs display how many clocks the delay is in binary, similar to how many Modcan and other manufacturer's modules indicate settings with binary LED sets:
Image

I don't know if 32 positions per range is enough but that should be quite useful. (you get 32 values if you start with all LEDs off = 1 clock delay and the other LEDs represent 2, 4, 8, and 16)

And then for the Medium and Large range the LEDs could change color (Blue = small, Green = medium and Red = large?) with each range being a multiplier. Not sure what it is now but small would be 1x, medium would be 2x and large would be 4x or what ever is close to what it is now.

And finally finally instead of separate jacks and LEDs I was pondering Disting the other day and thought their translucent LED jacks were OMG so sexy :love: but I'm not sure how robust and reliable those are. :hmm:
Image

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Post by paults » Tue Oct 21, 2014 9:02 am

a) LOOP will be a combination of the panel toggle and a GATE input jack. The toggle switch has 'priority', so if you want to use the GATE, you put the toggle switch to OFF. Then any signal over 1.25V that come in will LOOP as long as it stays over 1.25V (level, not edge or 'latching').

I suppose I could add a jumper for 'level' or 'latching' mode (1 rising edge to LOOP, the next to turn it off). I don't have the panel space to have this accessible.

So, it mimics manually flipping the switch up/down.

b) The Expansion has 4 RGB LEDs. Certainly I can use 1 mode as a 1-2-4-8 delay count, which covers the lowest range and some of the middle range (not useful in the longest range). So then the question is what happens to the LEDs if you are in the really long delay range (say a delay of 100 clocks?).

c) the delay is "variable' but internally quantized to whole clocks (you can't delay 3.17 clocks either 3 or 4).

I just sent out for a little breadboard pcb so we can see what LEDs codes are useful. They will have to be 'burned it' to the modules so once decided, a firmware change is needed to add different schemes (the code resides in the E102, not the E103. The E103 just sends/receives data via 8-wire cable to the E102).

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Post by Paranormal Patroler » Wed Oct 22, 2014 12:07 pm

Hm, considering the number of clocks that can get between the stages I have to say I can't think of how just 4 LEDs can be useful. :hmm: I mean at the longest setting you can have up to 512 clocks between stages (:sb:), so it only serves for Short and Medium settings (those go up to 32).

Since we're still talking possibilities here I'm curious if you guys think it would be useful that the Gate input toggles the opposite state of the Switch. So if the switch is ON and you send a Gate it turns to OFF for the duration of the Gate and vice versa. I'm only suggesting it because it seems logical and it gives versatility to the user.
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Post by richard » Fri Oct 31, 2014 6:39 pm

Good show, the footswitch thing made me panic. I have no desire to use a foot for anything modular ever. But by the end of the thread I see sanity and gates have prevailed! Looking forward to the e102
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Post by VortexRanger » Fri Feb 06, 2015 11:26 am

Looking forward to looping with my e102.. Any news?
:hobbes:

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Post by paults » Fri Feb 06, 2015 7:48 pm

Waiting for the toggle switches to ship from Japan. Not due until late March.

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Post by VortexRanger » Fri Feb 06, 2015 8:04 pm

Thanks! I think you told me as much at NAMM, but NAMM is an information overload :deadbanana: anyway the E102 has plenty of juice to last me to March and beyond!
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Post by AKMacAddict » Sat Feb 07, 2015 12:34 am

Oh, do I have foot switches... So, I'll go rob one from the Voyager. For a good cause... Ok, I'm waiting patiently on the sidelines. :hyper:

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Post by AKMacAddict » Sat Feb 07, 2015 12:35 am

Sheesh! Double tap. :hmm:

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